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Running a red block

  • I recently was riding the Capitol Limited and was very fortunate to be in the lead passenger car and could see the engine rather nicely. In one of the situations, the Engineer slowed to a crawl comming down Sand Patch on a caution block and eventually ran a red block on the next signal. We crawled up to rear of an empty auto loader consist and stopped just short of the lead train. We were 1.5 hours behind schedule. I am from the old school of remembering that it was illegal to run a stop block. Does today's communication equipment allow this to happen?
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  • If the signal had a "G" sign,it was a "grade" signal,meaning an engineer can run the block keeping his train under control,meaning he could stop within 1/2 the distance of line of sight.
    Ride Amtrak. Cats Rule, Dogs Drool.
  • Even without a grade indicator, most red signals which are NOT absolute may be passed at restricted speed, which is more or less defined as "operate prepared to stop short of obstruction not to exceed 15 miles per hour". Ed or one of the other professionals have provided a fuller definition on other threads.
    The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • The dispatcher may have "talked" you by the red signal advising to proceed at restricted speed. Then the train would not be able to go faster than the ability to stop within sight distance.

    Could have been an attempt to get the train closer to either Cumberland or Connelsville depending upon which direction you were headed. Then when the train ahead cleared the Capitol would be able to at least get to the station platform.

    Or as noted above, the signal you passed could have been one where a red is not an absolute stop but could be passed at restricted speed.

  • Depending on the rules in effect it is permissable to stop at a red signal and proceeed at a reduced speed prepared to stop. Some signals are designated as "positive" and these are not to be passsed when they display a red aspect. This is a simplified explanation and there are many other operating practices too numerous to go into here. I too am from the old school and the above has been effect since the early days of automatic block signalling.

    Mark
  • Earlier this year, I was out watching trains with a friend, I saw a Norfolk Southern freight train pass a RED signal. The train passed the signal at about 30 mph. I think another train might have got on a secondary siding a few minutes before the other train passed the red signal. I would guess that trains can pass red signals with permission from the dispatcher.
  • ok... being that i use to run sandpatch some years ago... unless i knew the actual location in question..i could give you a 100% awnser...but... since you did not come to a stop after befor passing the signal in question... it was an intermediat signal..it either hand a number plate or a G on the signal mast... if it was an abslolut signal..you would (should) have come to a stop... and only after the distpatcher gives the train crew permistion to pass it..may you pass absolute signal displaying a stop aspect....in both casses..you have to run at resticted speed...
    csx engineer
    "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel
  • QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

    If the signal had a "G" sign,it was a "grade" signal,meaning an engineer can run the block keeping his train under control,meaning he could stop within 1/2 the distance of line of sight.
    its actualy 1/2 the range of vistion..not line of sight...and on csx..its not to exceed 15 mph...
    the actual defintion is
    restricted speed
    a speed that will premint stopping within 1/2 the range of vistion..stopping short of a train..a car..an obstruction..on track equipment..a imporprly lined switch..a derail or stop signal... must premit looking out for broken rail..and will not exceed 15 mph...
    csx engineer
    "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel
  • Csxengineer98

    Thanks for the clarification on stopping ability. I knew you had to be able to stop within the line of sight but not the the specific of 1/2 the range of vision.

    Dale
  • QUOTE: Originally posted by Bobby Tennyson

    Earlier this year, I was out watching trains with a friend, I saw a Norfolk Southern freight train pass a RED signal. The train passed the signal at about 30 mph. I think another train might have got on a secondary siding a few minutes before the other train passed the red signal. I would guess that trains can pass red signals with permission from the dispatcher.


    Your train may have passed a red signal without stopping, but not at any 30 MPH.

    Were you looking at the train comming at you and the signal pointed your direction was red? If so, I can guarentee that the signal the engineer saw was not red.

    Or was the signal a multiple head job with a green or yellow over a red. If so, the top signal is for the "main" or non-diverging route and the lower signal is for the diverging route.

    The signal may also have been "plated" as mentioned above, but your train could not have passed that signal at a speed greater than restricted speed.

    There are only two conditions that a train can pass "a signal displaying stop indication" without stopping: (1) is a plated signal as provided in the Special Instructions to the Timetable and (2) is a "flashing red" - "proceed without stopping not to exceed restricted speed".

    At all other times, when a train approaches a signal displaying stop indication, the train must stop. If the signal is an internediate signal (has a number plate), once the train has come to a complete stop, it may proceed past the red signal not to exceed a speed proscribed in the Rules, Special Instructions, Timetable Bullitin, or Dispatchers oral authorization but in no case to exceed restricted speed. If the signal has no number plate or has a triangular plate with the letter "A" on it, the train may not pass the signal without Dispatcher authorization under any circumstance and then, again, not to exceed restricted speed.
    Eric
  • The Train that I saw, was headed East , 2 trains before it had entered the secondary siding going east and the crew had flipped the turnout so that it was now clear on the main track. The trains on the siding moved on down the siding and stopped. The first train on the siding was out of view. The eastbound was on the main track at a speed of 40-50 instead of 30 as I mistakenly mentioned before and passed a signal which was red on the main track. The red signal is for the main track. We do not have CTC controlled signals through here. The signals are wired to the tracks and change when a train is within a certain block. Track warrants are issued over a radio to give the train permission to proceed. Summary: The eastbound was on the main at 40-50mph and the signal head was pointed west so that an eastbound could see the signal, which at this time was red. After passing the turnout, the train continued on the main because 2 other trains were sitting on the siding. The signal system through here is different from most signal systems. NS manages the St. Louis line here differently than most lines. Our tracks here seem unique in the fact that trains here never seem like they're in a mad rush, the crew seems relaxed all the time, and they just ride along and enjoy everything. Kenneo, I appreciatte your explanation of how signals work.
  • QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneo

    QUOTE: Originally posted by Bobby Tennyson

    Earlier this year, I was out watching trains with a friend, I saw a Norfolk Southern freight train pass a RED signal. The train passed the signal at about 30 mph. I think another train might have got on a secondary siding a few minutes before the other train passed the red signal. I would guess that trains can pass red signals with permission from the dispatcher.


    Your train may have passed a red signal without stopping, but not at any 30 MPH.

    Were you looking at the train comming at you and the signal pointed your direction was red? If so, I can guarentee that the signal the engineer saw was not red.

    Or was the signal a multiple head job with a green or yellow over a red. If so, the top signal is for the "main" or non-diverging route and the lower signal is for the diverging route.

    The signal may also have been "plated" as mentioned above, but your train could not have passed that signal at a speed greater than restricted speed.

    There are only two conditions that a train can pass "a signal displaying stop indication" without stopping: (1) is a plated signal as provided in the Special Instructions to the Timetable and (2) is a "flashing red" - "proceed without stopping not to exceed restricted speed".

    At all other times, when a train approaches a signal displaying stop indication, the train must stop. If the signal is an internediate signal (has a number plate), once the train has come to a complete stop, it may proceed past the red signal not to exceed a speed proscribed in the Rules, Special Instructions, Timetable Bullitin, or Dispatchers oral authorization but in no case to exceed restricted speed. If the signal has no number plate or has a triangular plate with the letter "A" on it, the train may not pass the signal without Dispatcher authorization under any circumstance and then, again, not to exceed restricted speed.
    the rules you stated are NOT CSX rules... the train in question was run on csx tracks... and csx opporating rules applied..and on csx..a train can pass a stop signal at resticted speed..if it is an intermediat signal (number plate Grade Plate) and they dont have to stop first...they can prosseed by the signal at restricted speed....techincal...its not a stop signal at all...its a restricted prosseed... a true stop signal is an absolut signal..where their are no number plates or other plates on the signal.... (as stated in the csx signal rule books).... and the only way to pass an absloute stop signal is only by permistion of the train dispatcher....
    csx engineer
    "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel
  • Under certain conditions, a train may pass a absolute signal after stopping only after being talked by it by either the dispatcher or control operator. However, this is not permission to pass by the red block --it is authority to do so. Permission and authority are two different things. Some new hires on the ballast get confused on this.
  • The original post was heading westbound just before the Connellsville yard, and the auto train was eventually headed into a turnout to the yard. It was basically in South Connellsville. Pretty darn foggy that night along the Yough. Thanks for the info on this!
  • QUOTE: Originally posted by squeeze

    The original post was heading westbound just before the Connellsville yard, and the auto train was eventually headed into a turnout to the yard. It was basically in South Connellsville. Pretty darn foggy that night along the Yough. Thanks for the info on this!
    no problem... as you can see with all the differnt railroads haveing differnt rules...it can get confussing with eveyone knowing thier railroads rules..and not all of them are the same when it comes to train opporations such as in this case of the "stop signal" rules in question... thats why i always make sure that when i discribe a rule i state that is a CSX rule .becoues evey company has a differnt rule book...most of the rules are simmiler..but they are differnt enough to couse some confustion....
    csx engineer
    "I AM the higher source" Keep the wheels on steel