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2-10-10-2 steam locomotive

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Posted by CrossTrack Trains on Monday, July 2, 2007 11:27 AM
 CAZEPHYR wrote:

 I found a web page with the same pictures as the Baldwin book.

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/triplex/triplex.htm

This site Shows the 2-8-8-8-2 & the 2-8-8-8-4

Ya they're Huge... 

"What else can you Shay"
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Posted by twhite on Monday, July 2, 2007 8:45 PM

Back in the days when brass locomotives used to cost about $45 (so you KNOW I'm going back a while, LOL!)  Railroad Model Craftsman had an editor whose name I wish I could remember, but cannot--who used to take brass locos--yes, BRASS locos--and kitbash them into things you just would not believe.  One year, he tackled all of the Santa Fe articulateds and came up with 2-8-8-2's (the PFM 1950 Santa Fe Consolidations hacked and hewed together), then came up with a double-motored Santa Fe 2-10-10-2 that was just the DAMNDEST thing I ever saw!  He even did the flex-boiler 2-6-6-2 out of what I assume was a couple of Prairies. 

I was just thinking about those articles, since several of you have thought of 'kit-bashing' either a Virginian 2-10-10-2 or a Triplex.  I was wondering if you wrote RMC, if they might have files on those articles to give you some ideas.  They'd be back in the late 'fifties, I think.  It might be worth a try.  Wish my information was better, but I remember that I was still in high school, and every time I'd open a copy of RMC, my jaw would drop!  OHMYGAW, he's at it AGAIN! 

Tom Tongue [:P]

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Posted by nfmisso on Monday, July 2, 2007 10:18 PM

A couple of comments here;

  • Both the VGN and AT&SF 2-10-10-2 had ~57" drivers, so the Spectrum 2-10-2 is a good starting point.  The Bowser, Mantua, P2K and IHC 2-10-x all have ~62" drivers.
  • The VGN 2-8-8-8-4 also had ~ 57" drivers.  The P2K 2-8-8-2 (two of them) would probably be the best starting point for the chassis.
  • The Erie 2-8-8-8-2 had ~62" drivers.  Spectrum, Bowser, Mantua or IHC 2-8-0, Bowser, Mantua or IHC 2-8-2.
  • There was an article in Mainline Modeler about the same time that the Spectrum N&W J was announced that showed techniques for building steam locomotive superstructures from plastic.  The focus of the article was a N&W J on the Plus chassis.  The Spectrum J, and later BLI J made this project superfluous, but the techniques are very valuable.

Good luck.

Nigel N&W in HO scale, 1950 - 1955 (..and some a bit newer too) Now in San Jose, California
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Posted by asta on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 2:32 PM

today i went to the local hobbyshop and talked to the owner and he told me it is alot easier to build a 2-8-8-8-2 or a 2-8-8-8-4 then a 2-10-10-2 he said to build a triplex i would need to get a IHC 2-8-8-2 and he could order me a extra driving mechanism and all i would have to do is modify the tender and figure out how to make it articulate and this will give the engine three power motors and i could have all three run on dcc.. where as if i were to model the 2-10-10-2 i would have to modify a lot more  and with my skills it may look like crap so i am going to try and do the 2-8-8-8-2 as soon as i can get the money thanks for all the help and if any one has more info or photos and other information that i could use on the project i will be greatful

 

 thanks

     david

Veni, vidi, vici In hoc signo vinces Pecunia non olet
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Posted by ndbprr on Tuesday, July 3, 2007 2:52 PM
The RMC editor was Bill Shopp and he in furiated many people with his good enough philosophy.  My firat E44 electrics were made from a Bill Shopp conversion of a U25C.  Some people started a group to stop him from converting other engines and he joined the group!  One I remember is the ATSF Bull Moose that had an expansion joint in the middle of the boiler.  he used a pipe nipple for that one.  They all looked pretty good to me when he was done.
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Posted by KHamrick on Monday, July 21, 2014 3:11 PM

First, I know this is a very old posting and no one will likely read it but I wanted to add this little bit that even google can't find-I believe the person you are talking about is "Speedy Johnson" He was commisioned to build a one-off for the railroad and he did-except he also made one for hismself.

Speedy was my Uncle's father-in-law and so i went over there a few times. The train eventually ended up in my uncle's house who was himself a collector and model railroader.

I just wanted to add that note because the man lived in a time before the internet.

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Posted by modelsof1900 on Monday, July 28, 2014 4:44 AM

asta

i had found this information on these two railroads website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-10-10-2#Virginian_Railway_class_AE  and i am trying to get more photos of these engines so i can attempt to build one for my layout or if anyone knows if these where ever made for a HO scale layout and if any do exist

Yet an addition.

You can find a lot of photos in the archives of Norfolk and Western Historical Society - http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/selectdocs.php?index=rs&id=897&Type=Picture

and click here for many, many drawings - http://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/selectdocs.php?index=rs&id=897&Type=Drawing

Cheers!

Click my website us-modelsof1900.de

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Posted by thomas81z on Monday, July 11, 2022 5:27 PM

i googled the 2-10-10-2 & this old thread came up

im buying a santa fe 2-10-10-2 & i plan on put in a can motor

and dcc & sound & down the road painting it up as 3001, a nod to

the HAZZARDS OF HELEN  movie shorts where the loco appeared

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 8:36 AM

Just to clear up a bit, the Double Decapods were never intended to be road locomotoves, but to be helpers - two would push from the rear while a 2-8-8-2, serving as the road power to Roanoke, pulled.                                                "The AEs performed well for 30 years, first as pushers for the 2.11% grade at Elmore until replaced by electric engines, later as helpers on other grades. EW King, Jr (in Drury, 1993) notes that except for the addition of Worthington BL feedwater heaters, these engines were never modified" - Locobase                                                                                                             "When working at their intended task, it was customary to have a 2-8-8-2 at the head of a 5500 ton train....Two 2-10-10-2's then pushed from the rear and the whole caravan moved upgrade noisily but steadily at 5.5 miles per hour. It must have been one of the greatest sights and sounds in railroading" - American Locomotives.                                                                     About their only peer as helpers were the Erie Triplexes.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, July 14, 2022 8:29 AM

And, ahem, the Virginian Triplex...

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Thursday, July 14, 2022 10:19 AM

I would disagree. The VGN's loco was immediately sent back to the builder to become a 2-8-8-0 and 2-8-2, "Drury (1993) notes that compared to the Erie engines, the 700 "was slower and ran out of steam faster[!]...It never made a successful trip," while the Erie machines lasted unchanged for over a decade, so they can be judged a relative success Erie 2-8-8-8-2/4 "Triplex" Locomotives in the USA (steamlocomotive.com) (and the Double Decapods put in at least 30 years). What killed the Erie locomotives was the conversion of the Erie from a drag era road to a modern high speed route with the purchase of 105 Sixty-Nine inch drivered Berkshires Erie 2-8-4 "Berkshire" Locomotives in the USA (steamlocomotive.com) in 1927-29 which rendered pushers unneccessary. "This fleet of 105 "Berkshires" changed the Erie from a classic drag freight operation to a fast freight railroad in just two years."

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Posted by John-NYBW on Sunday, July 17, 2022 1:26 PM

I thought the whole idea of articulated steamers was to eliminate the need for fixed 10 and 12 wheeled driver sets. It surprises me that a 2-10-10-2 loco was ever conceived much less built.

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Sunday, July 17, 2022 1:45 PM

John-NYBW

I thought the whole idea of articulated steamers was to eliminate the need for fixed 10 and 12 wheeled driver sets. It surprises me that a 2-10-10-2 loco was ever conceived much less built.

 

Yes, but these locos were drag freight locos and had very small drivers, 56"/57", so the rigid wheelbase of each set was only about 19', no longer than many other locos with only four axles per drive set.

Only 20 examples were built, 10 by the ATSF in 1911, and 10 by ALCO for the Virginian in 1918.

Very slow, but very powerful.

Sheldon

    

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Posted by selector on Sunday, July 17, 2022 2:31 PM

Two other considerations: the right of way needed to sustain these heavy articulated beasts at speeds suitable for pax ops, and the fact that few of them would have had voluntary crew at those speeds. I don't know my steamers well enough to claim definitively that the articulated ones capable of passenger speeds were seldom rideable at speeds much above 65 mph across the various models, but that's been what my anecdotal reading tells me.  The duplexes and Northern class were much better, even at speeds approaching 100 mph.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, July 17, 2022 7:28 PM

John-NYBW
I thought the whole idea of articulated steamers was to eliminate the need for fixed 10 and 12 wheeled driver sets.

The whole idea of high-speed, simple articulateds, an idea pioneered by Baldwin with a pair of 2-6-6-2s in the very early 1930s, is what replaced the basic idea of 'three barrels of steam' and 10-12 coupled wheels as big fast-freight power.  Up to that point, simple articulateds were just more thermally-efficient drag engines and pushers.

At just about this time, the AMC came up with the C&O T-1 2-10-4, which with its PRR J1 and J1a half-sisters and the ATSF 5001/5011 class 2-10-4s, showed what a 10-coupled rigid wheelbase by itself could do for high-speed traffic, and of course the nearly-stillborn PRR Q2s developed more horsepower (at speed) than any other American locomotive -- Alleghenies included.

It surprises me that a 2-10-10-2 loco was ever conceived much less built.

As a pusher for specific service on the then-new Virginian, it made eminent sense.  For fun you can look at the ATSF 2-10-10-2 (which you can actually see running on YouTube in one of the Hazards of Helen cliffhangers!) which just didn't have enough firebox to get the job done.

What actually happened was that train consists changed away from slow-but-economical through the late 1920s, although the real proof didn't come until Loree was replaced on the D&H, and within no more than a couple of years the railroad had become a high-speed example of why 4-6-6-4s get the job done better even in terms of economical operation...

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, July 17, 2022 7:32 PM

John-NYBW
I thought the whole idea of articulated steamers was to eliminate the need for fixed 10 and 12 wheeled driver sets.

The whole idea of high-speed, simple articulateds, an idea pioneered by Baldwin with a pair of 2-6-6-2s in the very early 1930s, is what replaced the basic idea of 'three barrels of steam' and 10-12 coupled wheels as big fast-freight power.  Up to that point, simple articulateds were just more thermally-efficient drag engines and pushers.

Note that there is a reason most of the high-speed and highest-horsepower articulateds were only six-coupled.  That was enough to haul any train it could start.

At just about this time, the AMC came up with the C&O T-1 2-10-4, which with its PRR J1 and J1a half-sisters and the ATSF 5001/5011 class 2-10-4s, showed what a 10-coupled rigid wheelbase by itself could do for high-speed traffic, and of course the nearly-stillborn PRR Q2s developed more horsepower (at speed) than any other American locomotive -- Alleghenies included.

It surprises me that a 2-10-10-2 loco was ever conceived much less built.

As a pusher for specific service on the then-new Virginian, it made eminent sense.  For fun you can look at the ATSF 2-10-10-2 (which you can actually see running on YouTube in one of the Hazards of Helen cliffhangers!) which just didn't have enough firebox to get the job done. For real fun, look at the Southern experiments with motor tenders, and then their approach to hump power that paired a 2-10-2 with no less than two 3-axle auxiliary locomotives replacing the tender trucks.  (Now there was something that might be surprising!)

What actually happened was that train consists changed away from slow-but-economical through the late 1920s, although the real proof didn't come until Loree was replaced on the D&H, and within no more than a couple of years the railroad had become a high-speed example of why 4-6-6-4s get the job done better even in terms of economical operation...

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Posted by ndbprr on Sunday, July 17, 2022 8:18 PM

When I worked for Armco Steel in Middletown Ohio we had an N&W Y3 we used for emergency steam service.  we eventually gave it to the Ilolinois Train Museum.  For engines that look huge in pitures it was really very short and small including the cab.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, July 17, 2022 10:23 PM

ndbprr
When I worked for Armco Steel in Middletown Ohio we had an N&W Y3 we used for emergency steam service.  We eventually gave it to the Illinois Train Museum.  For engines that look huge in pictures it was really very short and small including the cab.

To put this in perspective:  I believe ATSF was considering Y boilers on 4-8-4 chassis, which would have been Something To Behold...

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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, July 17, 2022 10:23 PM

The AT&SF 2-10-10-2 were somewhat unique, in that they had two boilers.  The rear boiler was typical with firebox, but the front boiler was just firetubes heated by pass-thru from the back boiler.  The two boiler shells were joined by a metal accordion.  Cinders would get caught in the accordions, and the front boiler did not contribute much steam.  Within about three years they started splitting them up again into their original 2-10-2 's they came from.

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