Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

How bad are the old Rivarossi 4-4-0s ?

19702 views
19 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    January 2001
  • From: Nevada
  • 825 posts
How bad are the old Rivarossi 4-4-0s ?
Posted by NevinW on Friday, February 23, 2007 7:27 AM
I am planning on modeling the Virginia & Truckee.  Finding Rivarossi and Poacher V&T 4-4-0s in realistic paint schemes is easy and they are a dime a dozen.  I know there are slightly oversized.  I can only conclude that they run poorly.  Can anyone give me information about these engines?  How oversized are they?  Is there any way to get them to run acceptably?  Is is possible to put DCC in them?  My suspicion is that I will need to stick to old brass but I thought I would ask. -  Nevin
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Canada's Maritime Provinces
  • 1,760 posts
Posted by Railphotog on Friday, February 23, 2007 7:34 AM

I had one of these models, can't recall if it was a Rivarossi or not.  It had a tender drive - the motor was in the tender, with a driveshaft running into the engine.   There wasn't any room in the engine for a decoder, but I don't know if there would be in the tender.  I doubt it, as it is pretty small.  It ran OK - at a fast speed too!  I never really used it much, passed it along to a friend whose grandson got an interest in modeling.   Remember this is real old technology, and may not translate into what we now accept as being "state of the art" stuff!

 

 

Bob Boudreau

CANADA

Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Dover, DE
  • 1,313 posts
Posted by hminky on Friday, February 23, 2007 8:14 AM

If you add electrical wipers on the tender wheels and remotor the older Rivaorossi/Pocher locos they run really well. The newer IHC engines don't need to be remotored. I have a webpage about the tender wipers at:

http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/1879/locomotives/wipers/

They were built to OO scale and are a good match for the prototype in that scale.

Thank you if you visit

Harold

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Sierra Vista, Arizona
  • 13,757 posts
Posted by cacole on Friday, February 23, 2007 9:34 AM

The main problem with the older Rivarossi and Pocher 4-4-0 models is their deep, European wheel flanges, which won't go through an Atlas turnout without stalling on the frog.

As others have mentioned, the motor is in the tender, and there is an unsightly drive shaft going between there and the engine because the boiler is too small for a motor to fit into.

I doubt that you would find room in the tender for a DCC decoder.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Pittsburgh, PA
  • 1,261 posts
Posted by emdgp92 on Friday, February 23, 2007 9:36 AM
I think Bachmann once made a 4-4-0 with a tender drive. I have one--it runs, but is by no means a smooth runner. As a result, it doesn't see much running time, and is usually "on display" along with a dead Model Power 0-4-0 near the station.
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • 235 posts
Posted by TwinZephyr on Friday, February 23, 2007 9:41 AM

I know from experience the Rivarossi/AHM and IHC old timer 4-4-0s will run very well with a high quality motor such as a Sagami.  While the smaller can-like motor used in the later production models may be better than the original three pole motor in a metal can, neither one is all that great.  My Sagami powered Inyo is very smooth and quiet with excellent throttle response - and this is without Harold's tender truck enhancement.

A small DCC decoder will fit in the tender.  Of course you will need to solder your own connections.

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Dover, DE
  • 1,313 posts
Posted by hminky on Friday, February 23, 2007 9:48 AM

 emdgp92 wrote:
I think Bachmann once made a 4-4-0 with a tender drive. I have one--it runs, but is by no means a smooth runner. As a result, it doesn't see much running time, and is usually "on display" along with a dead Model Power 0-4-0 near the station.

The newer  Bachmann Old Tyme 4-4-0 Jupiter's and 119's with the tender drive can be upgraded with wipers and run very good. They have a five pole skew wound motor. Both the Rivarossi and the Bachmann are easily converted to DCC, I use the Digitrax DZ123, it is a simple wire up. I have a webpage about wipers on the Bachmann Jupiter at:

 http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/bachmann_4-4-0/wipers/

I abandoned the "HO in the 1870's" project because the inability to put sound in small locomotives with the discontinuance of the Sountraxx DSD-090LC sound decoders.

Just a thought

Harold

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • 4,368 posts
Posted by Darth Santa Fe on Friday, February 23, 2007 5:00 PM
I worked on one of the oldest Rivarossi 4-4-0s not long ago, and it wasn't really a bad engine. The only real problems were the oversized flanges, and the lack of much weight at all (tiny piece of lead near the cab was it). Other than that, it was a nicely detailed, smooth running engine.Big Smile [:D]

_________________________________________________________________

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Joizey
  • 1,983 posts
Posted by SteamFreak on Friday, February 23, 2007 6:11 PM

The advantage of the tender drive is the remotoring flexibility, because you can drop in just about any small can motor, as others have said. I used a small Mabuchi in my Rossi 2-4-0, and it runs beautifully. As far as the drive shaft is concerned, there are all sorts of compromises in model railroading -- personally, it doesn't bother me that much. I think the biggest issue is the large flanges, if someone is using code 80 or lower.

I have the IHC Reno, and it runs great out of the box, in spite of the inexpensive can motor. They're nice engines.

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • 398 posts
Posted by msowsun on Friday, February 23, 2007 8:27 PM

My Rivarossi 4-4-0 is about 25 years old and still runs very nicely.  I added some lead weight to the cab area and shortened the tender and driveshaft connection. The headlight and fuel bunker also recieved some changes.

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Whitby, ON
  • 2,594 posts
Posted by CP5415 on Friday, February 23, 2007 8:38 PM

I have one, it was my Dad's, from the mid 60's

It runs great considering it's age. It has had no problems running or hauling the passenger cars I have of the same vintage even up the 3.5% grades i have.

I seriously doubt you can put DCC in it due to it's size.

Gordon

 

 

Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!

 K1a - all the way

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • From: Western, MA
  • 8,571 posts
Posted by richg1998 on Friday, February 23, 2007 10:06 PM

 A couple of years ago I put Lenz decoders in a Mantua General, Bachmann 4-4-0 and a IHC 4-4-0. The first two have smaller can motors. I recently used Harolds ideas for tender truck pickups and fine tuning the Bachmann to run much better. The IHC engine has a front coupler and I can bring it up behind a freight on a grade, couple on the move. At the top of the grade I stop and uncouple manually.

I would post a photo of the tender decoders but I do not know how to post photos. I have the photo in my computer. I do not have a URL for the photo.

 Rich 

If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: Culpeper, Va
  • 8,204 posts
Posted by IRONROOSTER on Saturday, February 24, 2007 6:11 AM

I have one of these that I bought in Germany in the early 70's.  I haven't run it in years, but at the time it ran pretty well.  It does have deep flanges so you'll probably need code 100 track.

Enjoy

Paul 

If you're having fun, you're doing it the right way.
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: US
  • 1,386 posts
Posted by Curmudgeon on Sunday, February 25, 2007 12:45 AM

How old is old?

I am working on a couple of old Rivarrossi units now (the Mantuas, Tower-drive Athearns, English, PennLine, and MDC are running fine).

This one I bought new in 65-66.

It's a 2-8-0, tender drive.

We got the driveshaft kit for it in the 70's. It was a good runner.

Been stored at my brother's place until last week.

It's toast.

The tender floor is ZAMAC, the lower part of the gear reduction is (or was) cast as part of the floor.

The floor swelled so bad, the back sticks out 3/16" past the shell, and the end steps are sticking straight out.

I went through the locomotive, it's fine, but to get a motor and gearbox mounted in the tender on a new floor is not a possibility.

I'm pretty good at fabricating, but getting a big gearbox with the round bearing mounts built, and retaining proper gear mesh, is far more effort than this is worth.

I may put a new gearset on the #2 axle instead of the #3, and a can in the cab, but I lose weight doing so.

I've talked to others, and this seems to be an issue with older Rivarossi engines, especially tender drive ones.

 

TOC

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Joizey
  • 1,983 posts
Posted by SteamFreak on Monday, February 26, 2007 4:22 AM
 Curmudgeon wrote:

How old is old?

I am working on a couple of old Rivarrossi units now (the Mantuas, Tower-drive Athearns, English, PennLine, and MDC are running fine).

This one I bought new in 65-66.

It's a 2-8-0, tender drive.

We got the driveshaft kit for it in the 70's. It was a good runner.

Been stored at my brother's place until last week.

It's toast.

The tender floor is ZAMAC, the lower part of the gear reduction is (or was) cast as part of the floor.

The floor swelled so bad, the back sticks out 3/16" past the shell, and the end steps are sticking straight out.

I went through the locomotive, it's fine, but to get a motor and gearbox mounted in the tender on a new floor is not a possibility.

I'm pretty good at fabricating, but getting a big gearbox with the round bearing mounts built, and retaining proper gear mesh, is far more effort than this is worth.

I may put a new gearset on the #2 axle instead of the #3, and a can in the cab, but I lose weight doing so.

I've talked to others, and this seems to be an issue with older Rivarossi engines, especially tender drive ones.

 

TOC

Curmudgeon,

I've seen so many of those tender drive 0-8-0's and 2-8-0's (and a few 4-4-2's) for sale on eBay with the tender floors disintegrating, and even have a few of the motors that came with the crumbling upper half of the gearbox still attached. I've seen one or two examples with the floors intact, and one seller had a number of the floor castings in with a few lots of parts he was selling that went for quite a bit of money. I don't know if they were repros or not, but the zamac looked brand new.

Couldn't you build a new tender floor out of brass or even styrene, then mount a can motor to the floor? Does it need the extra reduction of the transmission in the tender?

  • Member since
    November 2013
  • 120 posts
Posted by DR JIM FITE on Tuesday, June 27, 2023 11:50 PM

I have a Reno and Geno by AHM (Pocher) from the 1960's and they still run very well.  See my comments on Model Railroader site.  They can be found pretty cheap on ebay.  Mine cost under $20 in the 1960's and were Christmas presents from my Dad.  I let one go yesterday for under $40 for I don't need a 3rd one.

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Southern California
  • 1,682 posts
Posted by Lone Wolf and Santa Fe on Wednesday, June 28, 2023 12:33 PM

My V&T Genoa was made by IHC. It is pretty old. It runs decently. The biggest problem is that the pickup wheels are in the tender and they are harder to clean since they are not drive wheels. I have code 100 track so the pizza cutter wheels are not a problem. I also have a Bachmann Central Pacific 4-4-0 but I think the IHC model is nicer and runs better.

Modeling a fictional version of California set in the 1990s Lone Wolf and Santa Fe Railroad
  • Member since
    August 2020
  • 581 posts
Posted by Southgate 2 on Friday, June 30, 2023 9:03 PM

2007 thread!Smile

But to whom it may concern, the earlier Pocher  models were built better than the ones available from AHM by the mid 70s.  

Wirh some creativity you can replace the motor with a 5.9v CD motor. Much smoother and quieter. Dan

  • Member since
    November 2013
  • 120 posts
Posted by DR JIM FITE on Friday, July 28, 2023 11:35 PM

I have an AHM Reno and Genoa by Pocher.  I got them as a teen in the 60's.  I got them out to tune them up and tender contact problems were fixed by removing trucks, polishing wheels and mounting screws including the threads, with a Dremel wire wheel.  I removed tender from loco and polished connecting wire an screw as with the trucks.  Polish the axles and the axle wipers too.  Apply oil to the hex shaft connector between loco and tender.  Try switching hex drive rod front to rear which may help running.  Overall, the loco runs better than it ever did and is much quieter.  Original motors still run great.  They are not the same.  I draped some small pieces of plastic sack over the motor,about 3-4 thin sheets about 1x2 inches.  It doesn't bind the commutator.  That resulted in much less noise and smoother running.  I don't know why it worked but it worked on both locos.  I added a slider to the Reno loco which picks up power and adds drag on the track to help slow the loco.  Genoa didn't need a slider.   After 60 years, the traction tires are still intact.  Remarkably good locos that cost less than $20 in the 60's.  I contact cemented a pair of small foam pieces to inside of tender to rub the universal where the hex drive shaft connects to slow it down a little.  Cost of these improvements: $0.  Satisfaction: great.   I love it when an experiment works.  They are selling on ebay quite reasonably from $45 up to $80.  I bought another this evening and will see if the above improvements work on it.

  • Member since
    November 2013
  • 120 posts
Posted by DR JIM FITE on Tuesday, September 12, 2023 5:36 PM

I have 4 of them and they run very well and have metal, not plastic, gears.

2 are from the 1960's from my Dad.  2 I bought recently on ebay.  Taking the tender shell off and lubricating the motor shafts and lubricating the hex drive heads helps.  The tender shell MAY cause a lot of noise; on RENO I removed its screws which conduct noise through the shell and it is very quiet now.  The other 3 are quiet anyway.  Placing a couple of pieces of foam rubber to rub on the hex drive socket in the tender slows their running down.  You can wedge it in to see if you like it and can then glue it with contact cement if so.   Contact cement can be removed with paint thinner if you decide to.  I have all 4 running well now.  They are reasonably priced on ebay for $45-50 plus shipping and congress' taxes on the internet (thanks congress and roy blunt).  These locos are 60 years old and run surprisingly well.  I'd be sure it is made by Pocher.  They are labelled on the bottom.  If they stall, clean all the metal parts on the tender including truck screws and drawbar with a dremel wire wheel.  This helps a lot.

Tags: AHM 4-4-0

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!