Starting Ops on an HO 4X8: WEB CLINIC

[cuyama]

Controlling the movement of trains has a couple of facets. One is the "Procedures Manual" we talked about earlier, which describes what each of the trains does and how they interact in terms of Distribution of cars (through trains setting-off and picking-up blocks of cars that in turn are switched to- and from industries by local jobs, for example).

The other facet is the order in which trains run and how they interact on the layout. In earlier times, this was defined to some extent by the employee timetable, describing the times trains reached various stations along the way. This is inherently time-related, as this is the way trains were kept form interacting in an unorganized fashion (i.e., crashing into each other!)

In more modern times, all or nearly all trains on the real railroad run as "extras", without a specific set of timetable instructions. This is true even if they run at about the same time each day.

On the smaller model railroad, it can still be important to manage the order in which the trains run. A traditional formal timetable can be used, but it demands timekeeping and is probably more trouble than it is worth to begin ops. I've successfully used sequence timetables in developing a number of ops sessions and I think it's a great way to organize and control a few trains and operators as you are beginning operations (or even in the longer term).

The sequence timetable describes movements on the layout in terms of their relationship to one another. When a particular job is complete or reaches some defined point in its work, another job begins. This sequence can be over-ridden if necessary because a particular job is taking longer than expected, but provides a good starting point for operations.

Here's an example of a sequence timetable.



This one happens to also indicate where each of four crew members is to go as they reach various stages in the operation. This also suggests places for trains to meet and pass, etc. A sequence timetable is also described in the Model Railroad Ops clinic referenced in my first post.

I think sequence timetables are a great way to get started. These can be developed on a computer (I used MS Excel for the example) or just some pencil notes. For many layouts, you don't really ever need anything more formal, unless it's fun for you.

Communications and Control is just another tool to help make operations more realistic and fun. It should not be a status symbol. Timetable and Train Order operation is the "flavor of the month" and many people read a lot about it in the commercial press. It's true that TT&TO can be fun and challenging, but it is almost a hobby in itself. It requires a lot of set up and training and most small layouts are really not laid out in a fashion that makes TT&TO practical.

My advice? Start small, start simple. Operate early and often for design feedback, fun, and motivation. Add complexity over time to the desired level of formality and challenge. Operations should not be a contest or a status symbol. It is a great way to bring more fun and variety to your model railroading experience.

Questions or comments?

Regards,

Byron

[SpaceMouse]

Harold and I (and now others) are having a discussion of what constitutes staging on page 3 of the 4x8 post. I'd love to hear your point of view.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=3&TOPIC_ID=46916

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Harold and I (and now others) are having a discussion of what constitutes staging on page 3 of the 4x8 post.

Ah, staging … so useful, yet so misunderstood.

One of the problems with this, as with so many things, is that different definitions have been used by different people at different times. So there is more than one right answer. What follows are my opinions and ideas only, others may disagree.

To me, the most basic definition of staging is anything that makes you believe that there is somewhere else beyond the benchwork that is connected to and has some impact on the visible scene in front of us.

I think the most basic understanding of the word relates to the idea of staging a play … for example, in a theater. Let's say you're watching a live production of a play. Three tweedy characters are sitting in a parlor looking very serious when suddenly in rushes a fourth actor in traveling clothes, carrying a valise. He announces, "I came as quickly as I could, gentlemen, but it takes seven hours on the bloody train from Edinburgh."

Even though we know that he was sitting just off-stage reading the funnies before he rushed in, we "willingly suspend our disbelief" and accept that he has been summoned for some matter of great importance from some distance away. The staging of the play is what creates the impression of a connection to a larger world beyond what we can see in front of us. This is accomplished by having the actor, not visible at first, come suddenly into our view, along with his actions and words.

In the same way, staging on the model railroad suggests a connection to "somewhere else" that makes our layouts seem more realistic because they have a link to the rest of the world.

Physically, staging takes many forms. It can be a staging yard hidden beneath other benchwork, behind a backdrop, or in another room. It can be a couple of tracks in our modeled yard that we dub "interchange" with another railroad. Most importantly, I think, staging is a function of what you do with it, not the physical form it takes.

For example, on my small Western Pacific-themed switching layout I mentioned earlier (shown here again), staging takes two forms: a physical interchange track with the Southern Pacific; and the action of resetting the cars and engine on the main WP lead into town between sessions.




In the case of a small switching layout with only a couple of visible yard tracks, staging may be the implication of connection with an unseen imagined larger railroad just "off the benchwork by requiring the operator to sort (block) his outbounds into "long west" and "long east" cars before spotting them on the "pick-up" track.

Now there is almost always room for classic hidden or secluded staging, even on a small layout. It's not necessary, but it's nearly always possible. Personally, I like staging that is out of sight (even though I know it’s there), because it adds to the realism -- for me. But each of us will have a different feeling about that and thus make a different decision.

Bear in mind that out of sight does not (and should not) mean inaccessible. Open visible staging works for some people and especially if it's out of direct view of the operator while doing most of their work, I think one can "willingly suspend their disbelief".

On my under-construction Oakland Harbor Belt layout, for example, the staging shelf will be visible if one is looking directly at it. But most of the operating activity will involve operators facing away from that shelf or looking at another shelf 14 inches above the staging shelf. The staging tracks will generally be out of the direct field of vision, yet accessible for mishaps and for cleaning and maintenance.

Bottom line, staging does not require dedicated tracks, nor that they be out of sight (although I think both of these help a lot and are worth striving for). Staging is a combination of physical track configuration, operating schemes, location names, etc. to suggest that there is a connection to the larger world beyond the visible layout.

regards,

Byron

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Harold and I (and now others) are having a discussion of what constitutes staging on page 3 of the 4x8 post. I'd love to hear your point of view.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=3&TOPIC_ID=46916

Yeesh, all that blather and i didn't answer the question.

... to answer your question directly, Chip, no, I don't think that the two sides of Harold's layout would qualify as staging because that's not the way he intends to make use of it. If he were planning to operate so that a train (or a couple) moved from the far side to the near side, did some work, and then moved again to the far side and the "session" ended, then the far side would be considered staging in my mind. Then the next "session" might be operating the other way 'round.

But if I read it correctly, Harold's planning to operate it more or less as two different locations during the "same" session (not one place + "somewhere else" at one session and another place + "somewhere else" at another session). And there's nothing wrong with that, of course, but it's not staging in my view.

regards,

Byron

[Anonymous]

I have herd you have to build at least 3 layouts before you get it right ;so start small and keep going ; thats what john allen did; glennbob

[SpaceMouse]

Page 5--not bad considering.

I've been reading Chubb again--don't now why that book is so hard to get through. And the idea of passenger cars has come up. Operating passenger trains is something I have to deal with anyway because of the club I attend. No one was working on our passenger terminal when I joined so I volunteered. Naturally, when it came time to make up operations. I was given the passenger trains. So basically I ended up with a sheet of paper that said basically, "Go to Station A wait a minute got to Station B." I digress.

When doing passenger train operations there seems to be two main types of work: moving passengers and providing the type and quantity of cars needed for the moving of pasengers. So I'm wondering how this works on the layout. Car cards don't seem appropirate.

For instance you have Train A from Chicago to Detroit meeting Train B from Cleveland to Chicago dropping a mail car and a coach to be taken to Detroit. How does that work?

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse Naturally, when it came time to make up operations. I was given the passenger trains. So basically I ended up with a sheet of paper that said basically, "Go to Station A wait a minute got to Station B." I digress.

When doing passenger train operations there seems to be two main types of work: moving passengers and providing the type and quantity of cars needed for the moving of pasengers. So I'm wondering how this works on the layout. Car cards don't seem appropirate.

For instance you have Train A from Chicago to Detroit meeting Train B from Cleveland to Chicago dropping a mail car and a coach to be taken to Detroit. How does that work?

I've handled passenger operations a couple of ways. If there's a lot of express traffic and places to switch the head-end cars (postal dock, Railway Express Agency, etc.), car cards and waybills (CC&WB) work well just as they do for freight.

I've also suggested CC&WB for a large club layout that did lots of passenger car servicing in a good-sized coach yard. The process worked well until the club had to give up their space and lost the layout.

But most layouts don't have either large head-end and express facilities nor large coach yards. In those cases, a simple additional line or two in the train instructions can indicate where to set off a diner or sleeper and where the returning train picks them up. So in your example, the Train B instructions would indicate which track a specific car (if desired, by car name/number) is to be set out and likewise where Train A should pick up the car.

Craig Bisgeier has a brief outline of passenger operations on the web at:
http://www.housatonicrr.com/passops.html

Chuck Hitchcock's former layout had extensive passenger switching described in "Twelve Hours at Argentine (July 14, 1953)"; Model Railroad Planning, 1997; page 10. The artcile shows hand-written switchlists that provide the instructions for the crews.

Regards,

Byron

[SpaceMouse]

I got some car cards and waybills.

Now I understand that the way bills determine the route of the car through 4 moves.

What I don't understand is the logic that goes behind building trains. A guy at my club has specific trains built up, they are always the same, same cars each time. But I don't understand how these cars can cirlce around a 30 x 30 double deck layout and them get back to the way they are supposed to for his pre-made trains. My feeling is you can.

Rather I see thse cars being brought in more or less randomly and the yard goat making up logical trains as he can.

What makes more sense is to look at each of the industries on the layout, determine their needs and capabilities, then t make up waybills to fill those needs. Then the yard makes up trains to fill those needs.

That is for the club layout. I suppose I should do that for the 4x8 layout, but I don't have a yard. I suppose the staging I'm going to build could be the off-stage yard and I could build the trains via 0-5-0. by

What am I missing?

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse
What I don't understand is the logic that goes behind building trains.

OK, fair question, I'll write up something on some ideas that have worked for me and my clients. But it might be a day or two. Others may have answers in the meantime.

QUOTE:
A guy at my club has specific trains built up, they are always the same, same cars each time. But I don't understand how these cars can cirlce around a 30 x 30 double deck layout and them get back to the way they are supposed to for his pre-made trains. My feeling is you can.

I'm sorry if I'm just dense, but I'm not sure what you are saying. He starts these trains out, they switch cars to various industries, and then all come back together in the same order again?

QUOTE:
Rather I see thse cars being brought in more or less randomly and the yard goat making up logical trains as he can.

That's (generally) what happens on real railroads and what we are trying to emulate on the layout.

QUOTE:
What makes more sense is to look at each of the industries on the layout, determine their needs and capabilities, then t make up waybills to fill those needs. Then the yard makes up trains to fill those needs.

Right, more or less. Generally, there will be some organization as to which trains switch which industries. So that determines which cars go into those trains -- that's classification. The order of stations and industries (and whether facing- or trailing-point)determines what order the cars go in the train -- generally speaking, that's blocking.

This does not always have to be in a visible yard, it can happen "off stage" or a train can do its own blocking.

QUOTE:
That is for the club layout. I suppose I should do that for the 4x8 layout, but I don't have a yard. I suppose the staging I'm going to build could be the off-stage yard and I could build the trains via 0-5-0. by

Right.

QUOTE: What am I missing?

I'm not sure -- because I don't understand what you are asking, exactly -- sorry. Maybe if you ask the question a different way or tell me where in the process it's not making sense I can help a litle more.

Regards,

Byron

[SpaceMouse]

YOu mostly did answer the question. The guy at my club pretty much is trying to set up things so that a car goes through 2 or 4 moves and the same cars go in the same train at the same time every 2nd or 4th op session.

I don't see how that can work.

In fact, what was explained to me is that you have 4 moves on each waybill and that in each op session all the 1s are accomplished and in the next op session all the 2s are accomplished. But I can think of a bunch of senarios where a car may not make its destination during that op session and so very shortly, you are just making the moves that are facing you on the car card.

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

YOu mostly did answer the question. The guy at my club pretty much is trying to set up things so that a car goes through 2 or 4 moves and the same cars go in the same train at the same time every 2nd or 4th op session.

I don't see how that can work.

OK, now I understand better. Yeah, for a layout of any size or complexity, that's going to be pretty tough unless you are willing to forgo realism for repetition.

QUOTE: In fact, what was explained to me is that you have 4 moves on each waybill and that in each op session all the 1s are accomplished and in the next op session all the 2s are accomplished. But I can think of a bunch of senarios where a car may not make its destination during that op session and so very shortly, you are just making the moves that are facing you on the car card.

Right, I've run into this a few times with people who don't fully understand the way car cards and waybills work and insist that every cycle must be in lock-step. For one person who really wanted the sessions to be exactly the same each time, I have helped develop a manual switchlist system that accomplishes this without trying to make the car cards and waybills work in a way that they were not intended to work. Kind of a boring session, though, in my view.

I don't recommend creating a system that is exactly the same every session, or that repeats exactly every few sessions, but it can be done.

Again, bottom line is that the waybill cycle numbers (e.g., 1-4) have no intrinsic meaning. And they certainly do not demand that every car on the layout be at the same cycle simultaneously.

Regards,

Byron

[SpaceMouse]

Could you address the theory behind building trains for a 4 x 8 layout?

Passenger
Though Freights
Way Freights
Consists

And for another topic.

Schedules and Fast Time.

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Could you address the theory behind building trains for a 4 x 8 layout?

Passenger
Though Freights
Way Freights
Consists

For those just joining this discussion in progress, I showed an example of the types of trains possible on a classic HO 4X8 in the model railroad operations clinic that was referenced earlier in the thread.

Chip, are you asking about the types of trains, or how the cars would be organized in each train?

QUOTE: And for another topic.

Schedules and Fast Time.

There's another article on my website on model railroad fast time

And some other thoughts on the other thread where you posted the question

Let me know what you're thinking of and I'll post some pertinent (or impertinent) thoughts later today.

Regards,

Byron

[SpaceMouse]

have 3 or 4 industries in a medium-sized Western town. I have an engine house and service facilities. I have 3 passenger platforms/stations. I plan on putting in 3 staging tracks.

The basic layout without anything is this:



Right now, it kinda looks like this:



So the specific question is how would I design a strategy or schedule of trains to service the community you see and a mining town up top.

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse
So the specific question is how would I design a strategy or schedule of trains to service the community you see and a mining town up top.

OK, here's one way to think about it. Now this is just one way to do it, there are other alternatives, and it's easy and fun to try different schemes.

You basically have two places to do work, the lower town and the upper mining town. With three staging tracks, depending on how they connect, I might do it this way.

The three staging tracks contain a passenger train, a west "through freight" and an east "through freight". Depending on the way the staging tracks connect, you might have to back the westbound or the eastbound into- or out of the staging tracks to run over the layout or to return to staging. Your local freight goes on duty in the lower town.

Overall scheme is that the through trains set out and pick up cars bound for the lower town and the mining town. They can run once or twice each session, traversing the full layout before returning to staging.

The local freight does the switching in the lower town, puts together the train for the upper town and runs up there to do the work and returns. The lower freight also sets up blocks of westbound and eastbound cars for the through freights to pick up. These long east and long west blocks come from the industries the local freight is working, obviously.

In order to make things work correctly for the east or westbound, the local switcher may need to set up the blocks in the "pockets" formed by the crossovers in the lower level tracks and retrieve the set-out cars from the same pockets.

Mixed in with this freight activity, the passenger train runs on a set schedule and the freight crews have to be in the clear for it to pass. Set up the overall schedule as a sequence … for example, after the eastbound runs, it's 15 real minutes before a passenger come through.

I think this would be a lot of fun for two or three people. A two-person crew on the local freight and one (or even two people, if you have aisle space) running through freights and passenger trains. Add in passenger stops and pauses for taking water to add to the "play value" for the through freights and passenger trains.

Just be careful not to clog the layout with cars (especially in the first few sessions) and you should have a great time. And this is just one way to organize it. One could certainly set it up with the trains from staging doing some of the industry switching work. But since all your spurs are going in only one direction, it's probably more reasonable to have a local do the work.

Regards,

Byron

edit:typos

[BRJN]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama
<start philosophic dissertation>
Some people use the older concept of routing all cars from one industry on the visible layout to another on the visible layout. I personally find that this limits realism. If the industries are really so close together, wouldn’t the industries just use trucks or wagons? Occasionally there are movements like this on the real railroad, so a few are OK.
<end philosophic dissertation>

I have a switching layout that represents an industrial park. Most of my car movements are in-(un)load-out.

A few cars can be in-industry1-industry2-out. (For instance a pickle car goes to the pickle factory to be fully loaded, then to the grocer's warehouse for a partial unloading, then off-layout to another customer.)

I have one reefer that moves packing house - grocers warehouse - brewery - grocers warehouse. And never gets new ice. (Ewww.) But as operations it works and the kids haven't called me on it.

If I had an around-the-room layout, I could have more cars that move between industries on the layout and perhaps leave only once in a 4-card cycle. A gondola might move: granite quarry - tombstone carver - Heavy Machinery Inc - off-layout. Of course, you might want to plan things out so the car moves a good ways around the room each time.

[Anonymous]

Great thread and link....

these discussions are interesting..........

[trainfreek92]

I will be running dcc on my 4x8 N scale. the freight yard will be on the side. the railroad has 14 switches. my ops strategy will to be right up a list on the computer for example (take maine central *564 into freight yard siding one and pick up a boxcar consist, to lumber siding of mainline 2[:D] Tim

[DerekO]

Byron:

Anyone you know ever built John Armstrong's Pennsylvania & Potomoc? Or has anyone done a scenery layout for this? I'm a newbie in the hobby and really like the look of this layout for a 4'x8' that I can start simple with and then evolve to his final plan.

Derek

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DerekO
Anyone you know ever built John Armstrong's Pennsylvania & Potomoc? Or has anyone done a scenery layout for this? I'm a newbie in the hobby and really like the look of this layout for a 4'x8' that I can start simple with and then evolve to his final plan.

Well, as posted early in this thread, I'm not a big fan of the HO 4X8 in general. If you have room for one, you probably also have room for something more interesting.

But 4X8s remain popular, so I tried to pick one that had some interesting possibilities for this ops clinic. I don't personally know anyone who has built the Armstrong plan as drawn, but a generalized view of the suggested scenery is shown in Kalmbach's 101 Track Plans book (it's #26).

One of the things I like about this plan is the hidden curve on one side. Concealing one of the end curves and/or dividing the 4X8 with a central divider (curved or on an angle) helps the appearance, I think. Access for maintenance or to deal with derailments is the one downside of the hidden curve.

Generally speaking, I think your idea of starting more simply and adding the complexity over time is very good. The one thing to be aware of is that "cutting in" turnouts (track switches) after you've laid track can be a little tricky. It's often a good idea to lay the mainline complete with all it turnouts, even if you don't build out the rest of the spurs or sidings in the beginning.

Good luck and have fun!

Regards,

Byron

[conford]

Byron and all,

I have been enjoying this thread, and am in the process of starting car card operations on my layout. The layout [aka the Grand Rapids Terminal Ry] is a 2 foot wide shelf, about 46 feet long, in the shape of a J. Has live staging at each end and represents part of the PRR branch between Fort Wayne and Mackinaw City, with connections to the C&O and the NYC. Focal points of the layout include Hughart Yard, Union Station and the industrial West Side.

At this point, I have completed train descriptions and charted their daily movements (a time/space graph as in Bruce Chubb's book). Now I am writing up the car cards and the waybills [CCWB]. I expect to have about 60 cars on the layout, but will be happy when I get up to 45.

While I plan to stick with the CCWB scheme, it is quite a chore writing the waybills, making sure things are balanced, identifying realistinc routings and destinations. Since my trains will be relatively short (7 to 12 cars) I am not worried about juggling waybills, besides there are little clipboards that will hold everything. I appreciate the general alternation of cycles -- Layout Destination -- Staging -- Layout Destination -- Staging, although some trips will be just overhead traffic. But it is a chore and I am making much use of the references that I have accumulated over the years (Moody's Industrial Manual, CT 1000, C&O Industry guide, the Walthers book America's Driving Force, among others) as I identify suitable shippers and consignees for the little cards. But it is good fun, and something to do while watching TV with the family.

Anyway, I hope to hear of others' progress, trials and tribulations etc, and will post more as time and progress allow.

Regards
Peter
conford

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by conford
The layout [aka the Grand Rapids Terminal Ry] is a 2 foot wide shelf, about 46 feet long, in the shape of a J. Has live staging at each end and represents part of the PRR branch between Fort Wayne and Mackinaw City, with connections to the C&O and the NYC. Focal points of the layout include Hughart Yard, Union Station and the industrial West Side.

Sounds neat!

QUOTE: At this point, I have completed train descriptions and charted their daily movements (a time/space graph as in Bruce Chubb's book). Now I am writing up the car cards and the waybills [CCWB].
<snip>
While I plan to stick with the CCWB scheme, it is quite a chore writing the waybills, making sure things are balanced, identifying realistinc routings and destinations.
<snip>
But it is a chore and I am making much use of the references that I have accumulated over the years (Moody's Industrial Manual, CT 1000, C&O Industry guide, the Walthers book America's Driving Force, among others) as I identify suitable shippers and consignees for the little cards.

Others disagree, but I personally think it's more engaging to have that informaiton on the waybills in the long run, so I think your work now will pay off. However, in the short term, I wouldn't hesitate to add a few more generic waybills that have less information just to get things running if you are finding that going slowly.

In many cases, real railroads moved many cars between the same destinations, so simply duplicating some waybills would be quite realistic.

I'd encourage you to start early and operate a few times, even without the full complement of car cards and waybills. That should be fun and will give you some useful feedback on your ops concept.

Regards,

Byron

[conford]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama

Others disagree, but I personally think it's more engaging to have that informaiton on the waybills in the long run, so I think your work now will pay off. However, in the short term, I wouldn't hesitate to add a few more generic waybills that have less information just to get things running if you are finding that going slowly.

Thanks Byron.

Yes I am trying to become more generic and fill in the blanks later. Using a pencil to fill in the waybills, too. I do think it's more interesting to be specific about traffic sources and destinations; this is a purpose driven model railroad and moving freight is the purpose. Besides, I figure the trains will look more realistic if they are ostensibly based on some research based traffic pattern. I am now adding the more repititive waybills (auto plant traffic), but will return to the "loose car" part of the customer base soon.

QUOTE:
In many cases, real railroads moved many cars between the same destinations, so simply duplicating some waybills would be quite realistic.

The funny thing that happened when I started doing the duplicate waybills is that I realized I need more 50 ft boxcars. So have dragged out some Athearn old blue box 50 footers and am fixing them up.

QUOTE:
I'd encourage you to start early and operate a few times, even without the full complement of car cards and waybills. That should be fun and will give you some useful feedback on your ops concept.

That's what I'm working toward -- solo ops first -- but, like it or not, the part of the layout that is more suitable for solo ops (West side) is also the one with the most loose car business. I will keep this suggestion in mind.

I am convinced that creating the waybills is worth the effort because of all I have had to learn. This forum, the opsig and ldsig have all been of great help in developing the layout.

Regards
Peter
conford.

[John Richards]

Well, this is just what I`ve been after, I`ve Bookmarked your "Clinic Pages" and will beat a
track back there every day or so, Your ideas on the "pool or Waterhole" are superb, Your
Horse Drawn Vehicle tracks are second too none, Thank you for your time and effort.

I`ll be back!!.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama
<start philosophic dissertation>
Some people use the older concept of routing all cars from one industry on the visible layout to another on the visible layout. I personally find that this limits realism. If the industries are really so close together, wouldn’t the industries just use trucks or wagons? Occasionally there are movements like this on the real railroad, so a few are OK.
<end philosophic dissertation>

I have one reefer that moves packing house - grocers warehouse - brewery - grocers warehouse. And never gets new ice. (Ewww.) But as operations it works and the kids haven't called me on it.

Have they finally caught on yet with the ICE? =) Thank you for that little tidbit of humor. I got a good laugh out of that because I used to run reefer and it was a stressful job.

I read this thread over a pot of coffee searching for answers possibly to my current operations planning for Falls Valley and wanted to ask a question regarding numbers of loads and empties.

"How does one generate a number of loads, empties matching required cargo that is listed on a worksheet as required by a industry?"

Example: Falls Valley Feed and Seed.

Monday it wants to ship out Bagged Salt, Bagged Lime and Bagged Charcoal for that day's work. Do I say it ships one load each or several loads?

I guess I am trying to learn how to "Generate" empties and loads as if the Industry might want or ship one load one day and several later in the work week.

I do have the switchlist for that town with other industries served by that particular local partially completed. Im just at a loss how to handle the 6 or so spots at the feed mill. There is freight coming into the mill as well that is already covered on another train.

Is there a computer program that randomly selects numbers of a load or another method?

[cuyama]

I read this thread over a pot of coffee searching for answers possibly to my current operations planning for Falls Valley and wanted to ask a question regarding numbers of loads and empties.

"How does one generate a number of loads, empties matching required cargo that is listed on a worksheet as required by a industry?"

Example: Falls Valley Feed and Seed.

Monday it wants to ship out Bagged Salt, Bagged Lime and Bagged Charcoal for that day's work. Do I say it ships one load each or several loads?

I guess I am trying to learn how to "Generate" empties and loads as if the Industry might want or ship one load one day and several later in the work week.

It's a little hard to say because there are some variables that you haven't discussed. Is this car-card-and-waybill? If so, it's easy to vary the relative number of loads to- or from a particular destination by simply writing more cycles for the more common car movements. Statistically, this will generally work out, although any particular session will be somewhat unpredictable.

Or are you saying that you want to run a particualr kind of a session called "Monday" and other sessions called other days of the week and you want the work done for each to be different?

It also depends on whether you have staging (the "somewhere else") mentioned earlier in this thread or must make all the movements "on scene".

Generally, a "feed and seed" would not be shipping out those commodities, rather shipping them in from distant locations. The farmers would come and get those materials in their trucks or wagons from the feed and seed.

More information might help me understand better what you are trying to do and better answer your question.

Regards,

Byron

[Anonymous]

Let's see.

Yard makes up a local for the town. The yard master might get the call by the industry within the town saying "I need X number of empties today" or perhaps "I have these loads to ship today"

The number of cars might vary a little bit from day to day M-F during the work week. I dont know what is generally done to generate random numbers to assign to the loads/empties for that day's train.

[cuyama]

Yard makes up a local for the town. The yard master might get the call by the industry within the town saying "I need X number of empties today" or perhaps "I have these loads to ship today"

For most people using car-cards-and-waybills, this happens automatically. The destinations on the waybills create the car movement. After each car reaches a destination on the 4-cycle waybill, it's cycled to the next position, which calls for a different movement. So the waybills simulate the requirements of the various shippers. Works great on layouts big and small.

Example, after a car arrives at the feed and seed mill with a load of fertilizer, the waybill is turned before the next session. This next waybill destination might be routing the empty to the lumber mill to be loaded with cut lumber. At the following session, the next waybill cycle directs this load of lumber off the layout to staging (if you have it) with the lumber. after it reaches staging, one more waybill cycle before the next session creates a load of fertilizer for the feed and seed and the cycle repeats. Each of the waybill cycles represents a shipper requirement.

It's not nearly as repetitive as that in actual use, because there are times when cars end the session in a yard, not yet to their next desitnation. These waybills are not cycled, so the car continues on the same path at the next session. So it is can be a number of sessions before the same movement re-occurs. Some people swap waybills around between cars every so often on very small layouts so unique looking cars don't reappear too often at the same industries.

The number of cars might vary a little bit from day to day M-F during the work week. I dont know what is generally done to generate random numbers to assign to the loads/empties for that day's train.

With car cards and waybills, this happens automatically. If you have created more waybill cycles for one destination vs. another, more cars move there each session. You actually don't want completely random numbers, just variation. Smaller industries should, in general, receive fewer cars each session than larger industries. This is easy with CC&WB.

Then each train is built of the cars with work for it that "day" (session). Typically some trains are through trains that only set-out and pick-up blocks of cars, they don't switch individual industries. Other trains are locals that take these blocks of cars, organize them for delivery, then switch out each industry. Again, the waybill destinations determine which cars go with which trains at which sessions. On a very small layout, you might have only one local train each session, but it could still build blocks of cars for an imaginary through train to pick up "overnight".

There is quite a detialed discussion of car-card-and-waybill earlier in this thread that may be helpful.

There are other methods to generate car movement, but IMHO none are as easy to use nor as widely understood as CC&WB.

regards,

Byron

[Anonymous]

Thanks for a wonderful "Meat and Potatoes" thread and reply to my questions.

[Anonymous]

I have hammered out a Feed and Seed Schedule which I think works. I am not trying to be true to prototype TOO much but wanted to have a reasonable amount of traffic supporting this Feed and Seed.

The inbounds:

Sacks
Grain Doors (Wood and Paper)
Drums mty *See note
Baler Twine
Fence Posts
Barbed and electric fence wire
Fasteners all kinds (Includes nuts, bolts, screws, nails and washers)
Portable fuel cans all kinds (Jerrycans?)
Small chain and cabling on reels
Pallets
Small equiptment batteries
   "          "            Parts and tires
Grease and Lube supplies
Fuses
Hitches all kinds
Tools small
Welding supplies

For clarity I consider one inbound a boxcar load for the month. I am planning 4 cycle bills for ops and think that week to week the number of inbounds per operating session will vary slightly. Since I only have 6 spots at the feed and seed I plan a side track to hold excess cars.

*Note, I am considering tank cars of Anhydrous Ammonia delivering to small storage tanks for local farmers to use but this material is a modern era commodity and not a steam era? Some clarification will be helpful.

The Feed and Seed is next to a small storage building and a older elevator. There is a bigger Elevator nearby that handles bulk shipments and a scale. I was thinking I can have the Feed and Seed "Bag" products up to 120 pounds for shipment out to smaller towns using some of the bulk inbounds from the big elevator to generate some outbounds besides empties.

Any advice or pointers will be appreciated, I have been wrestling with this particular industry for some time and it has been a snarled knot in my ops plan for Falls Valley for some time =)