richhotrain DigitalGriffin Everyone loves BB because they are impossible to destroy and run forever for a cheap price. I thought I could get a cheap loco for my son. I bought it without adding up the cost. But once I got it up to modern standards, I started to realize it wasn't such a deal. And it left me wondering why so many people are stuck on these old blue boxes as the best thing ever. Not everyone loves BB locos. I don't. When you say that you thought you could get a cheap loco for your son, quantify "cheap". Rich
DigitalGriffin Everyone loves BB because they are impossible to destroy and run forever for a cheap price. I thought I could get a cheap loco for my son. I bought it without adding up the cost. But once I got it up to modern standards, I started to realize it wasn't such a deal. And it left me wondering why so many people are stuck on these old blue boxes as the best thing ever.
Everyone loves BB because they are impossible to destroy and run forever for a cheap price. I thought I could get a cheap loco for my son. I bought it without adding up the cost. But once I got it up to modern standards, I started to realize it wasn't such a deal. And it left me wondering why so many people are stuck on these old blue boxes as the best thing ever.
Not everyone loves BB locos. I don't.
When you say that you thought you could get a cheap loco for your son, quantify "cheap".
Rich
In a day when this hobby was quite different, the Blue Box loco was affordable excellence.
Half the brass diesels on the market ran like crap until you fine tuned the mechanism.
Kits like Hobbytown of Boston took time and intermediate or better skill to assemble.
RTR train set locos typically had one truck powered and ran poorly.
But that era ended when two things happened:
Atlas imported the first Kato and Roco built locos.
Lifelike created Proto2000 with a cloned the Athearn drive, a better motor, and body shells with high detail and reasonably high accuracy.
So by the time you entered the hobby, the "product revolution" was well underway.
From there it just exploded - Stewart, Intermountain, and others - AND Genesis from Athearn, new tooling from MDC/Roundhouse, better products from Bachmann. Bowser buys Stewart and goes all in, Broadway (although I have never been impressed by their diesels), and more.
So the once mighty Blue Box was relegated to entry level/"train set" status - more or less.
Understand this - when introduced in 1953, the Globe/Athearn plastic F7 shell was state of the art, head and shoulders above every other EMD F unit model out there - including most brass. That fact is supported by the recent retirement of that tooling - 70 years after its introduction.
The original drive, and the first couple of improvements to it, were better than a lot of the other products out there as well.
But that was then - that ship sailed by about 1990 to be sure.
Cheap? Never cheap but truely "affordable quality" in their day.
Sheldon
Alton Junction
Well, I think the responses show that a great many of us moved on from Blue Box locos a long time ago.
I know I did. The five I still have were heavily upgraded projects I have a lot of time and a fair amount of money in - but not like your project.
Now, for me, Blue Box rolling stock is another story.
I have my share of modern, more accurate and more detailed rolling stock. Both kit built and RTR.
But I simply have no intention to replace 500 pieces of rolling stock just so every piece is "museum" quality.
But back to locos for a minute.
It did not take DCC and sound for me to give up on additional purchases of Blue Box locos.
When I saw the second or third release from Proto2000 I was sold on the running qualities and the detail.
And I still don't have DCC or sound. In fact, I have removed DCC and/or sound from a dozen or more locomotives. 20 years ago basic Bachmann decoders sold really well on Ebay.....
And my brand new DC RS-3's from Bowser run really nice and have incredible detail - for $100 less than their DCC counterparts and $60 less than your project Blue Box loco.
So, same point still stands, everyone has different wants, needs and goals.
So a $50 NOS original Proto GP7 at a train show is gold mine to me. A couple dollars in new gears and quick cleanup/tune up and I'm good to go.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
As others have said it is a whole lot of depends:
Running a DC layout and prototypical detail isn't a huge concern? Only doing a DCC No Sound upgrade and want to learn how to do DCC installs without damaging an expensive model? Sentimental value behind it? Then it is worth it.
Want the latest and greatest prototypical features with newest DCC and Sound and you think you found a shortcut by DIY? Then no, you didn't, and there are much newer, better options available.
It seems to me the OP could have been more shrewd with parts sourcing. I get my tcs wow decoders for a bit under $100.
You can get speakers for under a dollar although they aren't high bass. I'm assuming thats not a huge concern since its a BB locomotive not a super high end loco.
You can find the A line axel gears for about 15 dollars on amazon. Motors can be found on ebay for about 3 dollars.
All said and done you could spend $180ish.
My issue is having half a dozen BB locos with custom freelanced paint. I want to convert the road to DCC, and don't want to paint all new engines. I'll probably remotor them and possibly polish the gears, shim the worm gears, etc. as will give functional improvement.
Genesee Terminal, freelanced HO in Upstate NY ...hosting Loon Bay Transit Authority and CSX Intermodal. Interchange with CSX (CR)(NYC).
CP/D&H, N scale, somewhere on the Canadian Shield
I've done a few. One needed a replacement motor which I found online for about $25.00. The decoders I use are around $40.00 with sound. Not the greatest but I'm not looking for the greatest. Overall it has been a great way to improve my skills on overall locomotive maintenance and upgrades and build a small fleet at a low cost.
maxman riogrande5761 Given the upgrades the OP mentioned, were blue box ever worth it? Isn't it all that extra stuff/expense why he is complaining? That's what I thought.
riogrande5761 Given the upgrades the OP mentioned, were blue box ever worth it? Isn't it all that extra stuff/expense why he is complaining?
Given the upgrades the OP mentioned, were blue box ever worth it? Isn't it all that extra stuff/expense why he is complaining?
That's what I thought.
So the original complaint is kind of a nothing burger.
And besides, it's more of a $70 difference because you can get a quality decoder for under $100. If someone is tight for money, they to do the upgrade over a couple months and save $70.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Athearn announced a while back that they were upgrading the F7 with a more accurate body, improved motor, and 21-pin receptacle. Not available yet, but expected soon.
A few other things I'd like to add. One, BB refers to many generations of locos. Later BBs had better motors and/or wheels. The "gold" motors can hold pretty well. Two, about the wheels, while the original non-polished wheels got dirty fairly quickly, it's not really necessary to change all of them. On 6 axle engines, I leave two sets of the originals. They provide better traction than the polished ones.
Simon
Never owned and run a BB, may have gotten one in a trade, if so resold right away. When I got back into the hobby in the 80's they were bottom fruit even then. Last purchace was an Walthers NW2 in DCC and sound, runs as well as my old Kato's did without the work and was only $150 a few years ago (like around 2). The only advantage of the Kato is it is much heavier so can pull better.
I just realized that of the 11 engines on the late '60s layout, not counting excursion steamers in the roundhouse area, but in "revenue" service, 6 are BB, while 3 are P2K, 1 YB Atlas. Add a BB F7 in excursion.
Yeah, while most of my "nicer" engines are awaiting paint and such, The BBs are moving the freight. Dan
I find that the old BB Athearns still have quite a bit of value.
I have 4 Athearn F7s (3As and a B). I also have an SW7 and a SW1000. When I wanted to add a local run switcher for my operations, I specifically searched for the 1000. I did change out the sideframes for some Smokey Valley Flexicoil sideframes to make it a road engine but otherwise it is stock Athearn with some detail parts and custom decals. I also have two GP9s that are kitbashed to a specfic prototype. I also have an SD40-2 that is the newest in prototype age as well as an SD45.
Also, I have 10 engines that are repowers using Athearn GP35 drives. (9 GP20s from Tyco shells and a GP30 from a Bachmann shell.) I wouldn't want to kitbash with more expensive engines.
Those engines represent a fairly high percentage of my engine fleet.
I also have a bunch of cars that are Athearn kitbashes. All of them were done because the BB cars and parts were inexpensive and easy to work with.
I run DC so I don't worry about decoders and such. Athearn engines are fairly easy to troubleshoot if there's a problem.
I've heard that putting some Pearl Drops toothpaste into the gears of the original Athearn trucks and running it in both directions for a while really gets them burnished and running nice and smooth. You can also get motors that run just as well as the Roco/Genesis motor for a lot cheaper (like the Bachmann E33 motor) and mount them with bath sealant. That's about $50 saved right there. The new Genesis model actually uses the old Blue Box trucks, so you can get just the new gears and place them into an old truck if the old gears aren't working so well.
For the models being worth it, that depends on who's buying it. If you want the latest in sound and control tech, anything older than about 2015 or so isn't going to be a good deal next to a new model that has those higher quality electronics pre-installed. If you're like me though and don't have much interest in sound and all, the Blue Box models are certainly worth the lower up-front cost. In fact, the only reason I haven't bought a Bachmann Siemens Charger is because of their refusal to offer them without sound. If there was a no-sound version, I would've gotten one years ago, but the extra $100 premium for something I'm going to pull out and stick in a bin isn't worth it.
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richhotrainNever owned one. Never will.
I have only owned one BB switcher locomotive. I thought that the P2K locomotives' better detailing justified the additional cost. The only thing that I don't like about the P2K switchers is that the handrails tend to warp.
I do add DCC Loksound decoders which adds to the cost, but I don't have to change motors or trucks so ultimately I don't think there is a huge cost difference between the two.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
DigitalGriffin So I picked up an Athearn BB P40 for $60 for my son. It was in good running condition non assembled, but noisy.So first thing I did was buy:1) $120 sound decoder TCS WOW2) $50 Genesis Motor3) $30 A Line drive axel kit (after shipping)4) $10 high bass speaker $210. That's on top of the $60 I spent for it unassembled. I also had to do a good bit of grinding on the frame to get the Genesis motor to fit.Total: $270Brand new Genesis P42 Amtrak with sound assembled: ~$320I'm six hours in soldering up micro-leds to hot glue them. But now that I look at the total cost, It's not really worth $50 savings given the 7 hours time and less detail it will have. And Athearn doesn't support parts for blue boxes.Some Blue Boxes really need extensive work on their gearing too. Are blue box's worth it any more?
So I picked up an Athearn BB P40 for $60 for my son. It was in good running condition non assembled, but noisy.So first thing I did was buy:1) $120 sound decoder TCS WOW2) $50 Genesis Motor3) $30 A Line drive axel kit (after shipping)4) $10 high bass speaker
$210. That's on top of the $60 I spent for it unassembled. I also had to do a good bit of grinding on the frame to get the Genesis motor to fit.Total: $270Brand new Genesis P42 Amtrak with sound assembled: ~$320I'm six hours in soldering up micro-leds to hot glue them. But now that I look at the total cost, It's not really worth $50 savings given the 7 hours time and less detail it will have. And Athearn doesn't support parts for blue boxes.Some Blue Boxes really need extensive work on their gearing too. Are blue box's worth it any more?
In your case, DCC and sound, no.
I'm a DC modeler and I only have 5 remaining Athearn Blue Box locomotives. But that far back, I only had about 15 locomotives total.
The Blue Box locos I have are all F units, all with replacement can motors. All with serious super detail upgrades, GSB cab interiors, American Limited diaphragms/close coupling, Walthers dress up kits and more.
But no little electronic brains or speakers.
Of course I model 1954 and I don't own any locomotives whose prototype is newer than 1954. So no P40's here, not from any brand.
Even though I have been in this hobby since 1967, I did not seriously expand my locomotive fleet until the 90's and beyond.
The really old stuff I had from my father is long gone - PennLine GG1, Mantua Pacific and Mikado, Varnet F3's, Lindberg SW700. By todays standards none of that stuff looked that good or ran that good.
On the other hand an upgraded Athearn F7 holds up pretty well - but I'm not looking for any more.
Most of my diesels are older Proto2000's (a long list of first generation ALCO's and EMD's), Intermountain (EMD F units), Bowser (new RS3's), Genesis (EMD F units), etc.
My average unit cost of acquisition is about $100 per loco.
And that includes the steam fleet - Proto2000, Bachmann Spectrum, BLI, some brass, etc.
As many have said so far, we all have different needs and wants, different goals for the hobby, and different talents.
I sold off my blue box F7s and GPs in the 90s replacing them with Kato powered Stewarts, Kato powered Atlas GPs. Then with the advent of DCC and sound realized it was cheaper to buy locos already equipped with sound than to convert the existing fleet.
Honestly it all depends upon how you derive your enjoyment from the hobby. We can all place a dollar value on our time, but is the dollar value what really matters? Personally I like to convert a DC locomotive to DCC and add the lights, sound, and details so a BB fits perfectly with my desires. And since a new undecorated loco is pretty much out of the question any more there is a place for the BB to be stripped and repainted. Does an old BB look as good as a new ScaleTrains or Genesis? Nope. But do I get a lot more modeling satisfaction out of detailing one for MY railroad? Indeed I do. Overall it's a matter of what you want to do in the hobby.
Good Luck, Morpar
"Dan Cortopassi's BB SD40-2 build series on TSG Multimedia on YouTube was a big inspiration for my delve into building rolling stock"
I enjoyed the two of them. Dan was the MR train geek and John was a videographer. They had a falling out, which neither of them discussed although Dan seems to think John claimed ownership of the videos they produced together. I could be totally wrong about that.John has since become a foamer and a MR geek. He does some decoder installations reviews of new models, layout tours and what he calls Chasing Trains.
Dan did a series of videos with his wife of boxes and boxes and boxes of trains he owned. I'm not sure if he or James Wright owns the most trains. He has started doing reviews and project videos which is more interesting.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Yes, they're worth it. I run DC, so those upgrades aren't ones I'd do to begin with. DCC locomotives cost me more for a feature I won't be using. Younger me would say I'd rather have 5+ BB locos than one Genesis-spec model for the same price. For people without much means, which encompasses many of those on the younger end, BB models are great.
If I want a model with more detail, I can detail them myself. Detailing and kitbashing is a big part of the hobby for me, so it works out. Dan Cortopassi's BB SD40-2 build series on TSG Multimedia on YouTube was a big inspiration for my delve into building rolling stock. Everyone has a different aspect of the hobby they like, and I personally like looking at a model and saying I built that. The caveat being my layout is a pink wonderland.
As for parts, most modern Athearn parts are compatible with later-era BB models. The only thing I can think of that aren't are the drive shafts, but even then you could go the A-Line route or swap out the flywheels and shafts for the newer hex type.
That being said, my actual BB fleet is very small, as my American collection spans other steam/diesel models from Tyco/Mantua, Bachmann, and the like of similar vintage and quality. My detailed modeling focus is Korean prototype, and those are either Atlas/Proto if I'm using an American-type model or 3D printed/bashed with Athearn BB or Proto drive parts. If I didn't latch onto modeling an obscure prototype, I would definitely be using more BB locos.
-Peter. Mantua collector, 3D printing enthusiast, Korail modeler.
I upgraded a few BB Athearns, without regrets because 1) I bought them at low cost at my LHS and shows, so upgrading costs were not too bad in the big picture; 2) Working on BB engines is a great low-risk learning opportunity (DCC install, motor change, etc.); 3) BB engines are robust compared to modern locos, especially the handrails - this is a great feature in a club context where there is a lot of rough handling.
You didn't mention also the factor of work involved in your cost.
Since I run DC, I won't be going to the expense of decoders, etc. The BB diesels with the gold motor / brass flywheels and nicely detailed plastic truck frames run well, especially with a couple electrical upgrades. Some good scores can still be found on those.
Those of you who will never have them, your reasons are certainly valid!
They'll never stack up against the new stuff, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying 'em. As mentioned above, "sentimental" is a factor. BBs kept me in the hobby back in the '70s, replacing train set junk.
My BBs are outnumbered by much nicer locomotives that would merit DCC if I ever make the switch, but I wouldn't considder most of the BBs worth it, especially the whole inchilada treatment you're giving it.
Dan
DigitalGriffinI also had to do a good bit of grinding on the frame to get the Genesis motor to fit.
Since the BB diesels have been around so long, there have been several companies who make "drop in" replacement motors that wouldn't require the grinding.
jjdamnit Prior to PECOs recent release of the Krauss-Maffei ML4000 Diesel Loco these were only available on the used market in DC and required upgrading to DCC.
Prior to PECOs recent release of the Krauss-Maffei ML4000 Diesel Loco these were only available on the used market in DC and required upgrading to DCC.
PIKO, not PECO.
My BB locos have been in their boxes for 10+ years. Atlas and Bowser make up my current active fleet.
Never owned one. Never will.
I gave up trying to get my old, 60s vintage Athearn engines to even run. This was years ago when I started building this layout. I got a couple of Walther/Lifelike geeps for $40 each, new in the box from M.B. Klein, installed decoders and I was happy and had much better models.
I did remove the motor from one of the old engines, added lights and a sound decoder and I run it as a dummy. The Walthers GP9M engine ŕeflects a model that was rebuilt from old GP9 engines. I have one of those so I perversely renumbered the old dummy geep to be the unit that was converted to the 9M model.
I think of my BB models from my childhood as old friends. I have a GP9, a few F7As and an F7B, including remnants from my teenage years and a couple of trainshow buys for a few dollars.
I agree that rebuilding an old engine to be a working model isn’t worth the cost and effort versus buying a new one.
But I will say that every one of my old BB boxcars and flats has been upgraded with Kadees, Intermountain metal wheelsets and sometimes new trucks if necessary.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
There's the rub. Rebuilding and detailing a blue box locomotive is a hobby within itself. I love it, but then, that is what I grew up with. I have accumulated enough projects and parts to last my lifetime plus. I do not have to put sound in every locomotive that I convert to DCC, so that helps.