Klein's

[IC_Tom]

rrebell

To address some of the comments, this was nothing more than another leveraged buy out that went south and a short term money squeeze. They borrowed money short term and got caught in the intrest rate hikes. To finish them off they did not have a good control over their supply chain. It always amazes me how stupid even large corperations are at times, many look short term rather than the long haul and don't take into consideration the risks involved in each move.

 

This scenario is beginning to make more sense as time goes on.  If modeltrainstuff.com follows suit with similar shutting down announcements, that will confirm it.  So far though, I see no word from that end.

[NittanyLion]

For one, Hatton's own managing director said they did, so... 

[maxman]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Maxman,

 

Well here is the complete Email conversation with Mike Brusky. And as he mentioned, the defect rate was only about 2%. Start at the bottom and read up since you clearly don't believe me.

 

Sheldon

 

Mike Brusky 

From:[e-mail]

To:[e-mail]

 

Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 7:07 PM

 

 

Awesome Sheldon!

 

We had another customer point out that issue to us, and we found it on a few of the cars we still have here.  This is good news.

 

We are spreading the word on the fix-its for the cars that have issues.

 

Thanks for letting us know.

Kind Regards,

 

Mike

Mike Brusky Chief Executive Officer w:classonemodelworks.com e: mike.brusky@ classonemodelworks.com p: 816-243-0044 o: 8610 NW 107th Terrace, Kansas City, MO 64153 We help people build “State-of-the-Art” model railroads

 

On Aug 22, 2023, at 4:22 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

 

Mike, I found the problem. The metal frames are not bent. On the B end, the air line to the retainer valve is not properly positioned, so the floor is not fully seated on the frame. I noticed the frame end not seated behind the coupler on that end. 

 

Removed the frame, inspected everything, move the pipe to its correct spot, reassembled - ALL GOOD. 

 

Hopefully this speeds up your quality inspections.

 

Sheldon Stroh

 

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 10:03:48 AM EDT, Mike Brusky <[e-mail]> wrote:

 

 

Sheldon,

 

We are not sure how many have issues.  We have stopped shipping and are now going car-by-car to check them……yes!  The manufacturer obviously did not do quality checks on these.

 

We have shipped over 2200 cars so far, and have gotten about forty emails back, which would be about 2%, but that is a significant number.

 

I have pulled a spare black brake beam.  I will try to get it in the mail to you yet today.

Kind Regards,

 

Mike

Mike Brusky Chief Executive Officer w: classonemodelworks.com e: mike.brusky@ classonemodelworks.com p: 816-243-0044 o: 8610 NW 107th Terrace, Kansas City, MO 64153 We help people build “State-of-the-Art” model railroads

 

On Aug 22, 2023, at 8:01 AM, carrollhome <[e-mail]> wrote:

Thanks, no worries. I was planning on just fixing it, but figured you likely wanted to have some idea of how many might have issues.

 

Thanks,

 

Sheldon Stroh 

 

 

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy Tablet

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Mike Brusky <[e-mail]>

Date: 8/22/23 8:16 AM (GMT-05:00)

To: [e-mail]

Cc: [e-mail]

Subject: Re: [Contact Us] Problems with GSC flat car

 

Hello Sheldon,

 

The cast frame is pliable, so holding the center deck, you can put downward pressure on the end deck to straighten it.  We suggest taking the truck off first.  We have some spare parts, so we will get a brake beam sent out to you as soon as we can - we are leaving for National Train Show, so if we can’t get it sent out today, we will send it as soon as we get back on Tuesday next week.

 

Another customer who used the 148s shimmed the box to get them level, so you may try that if you want to use the 148s.

 

Let us know if you have any problems straightening the frame.  We will be publishing a video on doing this shortly.

Kind Regards,

 

Mike

Mike Brusky Chief Executive Officer w: classonemodelworks.com e: mike.brusky@ classonemodelworks.com p: 816-243-0044 o: 8610 NW 107th Terrace, Kansas City, MO 64153 We help people build “State-of-the-Art” model railroads

 

On Aug 21, 2023, at 10:22 PM, '[e-mail]' via Contact Us <[e-mail]> wrote:

Gentlemen,

 

Now that I have had a chance to play with my new GSC flat car, a few problems are apparent.

 

The cast frame of the car appears to be ever so slightly bent, causing a coupler height issue.

 

One of the brake beam details on one truck is broken and partly missing. The damaged part was not in the package?

 

I can see where putting my desired couplers on the model will be a bit more of a project than I thought after watching your video -  a pair of Kadee 148 couplers drooped significantly.

 

Attached are some photos. 

 

Your thoughts please.

 

Sheldon Stroh 

<20230820_220824.jpg><20230820_220831.jpg><20230820_220858.jpg><20230820_220919.jpg><20230820_220946.jpg><20230820_221937.jpg><20230820_222006.jpg>

Since you are a stickler for accuracy:

I did not say that I didn't believe you.

The 2% problem rate represents 40 complaints received by them out of 2200 cars shipped, not the probable actual number of problem cars.

In your 8/21/23 email to them you say that "the cast frame appears ... to be slightly bent".  So your initial assessment was the same as mine.

I was one of the email complainers and received a similar email to the one you received on 8/22, with the exception of the missing part portion.

They never contacted me with any follow-up concerning the mis-located part.

If they issued a new video showing the "correct" correction, I am not aware of it.  If you have a link to such, I would appreciate some direction to the location.

I see that you sent them some photos.  If you would be so kind, maybe you could share them.  You could post them in a new topic titled depressed center car problem correction or some such.  That would get this thread back on topic.

Thanks

[Soo Line fan]

AEP528

So can anyone provide actual proof of the MTS purchase by Hatton's?

All I can find online are people in Internet forums stating it's true. And we all know Internet forums are worth less than one pays for them.

 

In the October 2023 issue of MRH on page 37 it states:

MB Klein has been purchased by Hattons. Hattons official Yvonne Wood says, “We saw a lot of similarities between MB Klein and Hatton’s, so we acquired the company. We are looking forward to expanding their services” 

[AEP528]

So can anyone provide actual proof of the MTS purchase by Hatton's?

All I can find online are people in Internet forums stating it's true. And we all know Internet forums are worth less than one pays for them.

[rrebell]

To address some of the comments, this was nothing more than another leveraged buy out that went south and a short term money squeeze. They borrowed money short term and got caught in the intrest rate hikes. To finish them off they did not have a good control over their supply chain. It always amazes me how stupid even large corperations are at times, many look short term rather than the long haul and don't take into consideration the risks involved in each move.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Maxman,

 

Well here is the complete Email conversation with Mike Brusky. And as he mentioned, the defect rate was only about 2%. Start at the bottom and read up since you clearly don't believe me.

 

Sheldon

 

Mike Brusky 

From:[e-mail]

To:[e-mail]

 

Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 7:07 PM

 

 

Awesome Sheldon!

 

We had another customer point out that issue to us, and we found it on a few of the cars we still have here.  This is good news.

 

We are spreading the word on the fix-its for the cars that have issues.

 

Thanks for letting us know.

Kind Regards,

 

Mike

Mike Brusky Chief Executive Officer w:classonemodelworks.com e: mike.brusky@ classonemodelworks.com p: 816-243-0044 o: 8610 NW 107th Terrace, Kansas City, MO 64153 We help people build “State-of-the-Art” model railroads

 

On Aug 22, 2023, at 4:22 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

 

Mike, I found the problem. The metal frames are not bent. On the B end, the air line to the retainer valve is not properly positioned, so the floor is not fully seated on the frame. I noticed the frame end not seated behind the coupler on that end. 

 

Removed the frame, inspected everything, move the pipe to its correct spot, reassembled - ALL GOOD. 

 

Hopefully this speeds up your quality inspections.

 

Sheldon Stroh

 

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 10:03:48 AM EDT, Mike Brusky <[e-mail]> wrote:

 

 

Sheldon,

 

We are not sure how many have issues.  We have stopped shipping and are now going car-by-car to check them……yes!  The manufacturer obviously did not do quality checks on these.

 

We have shipped over 2200 cars so far, and have gotten about forty emails back, which would be about 2%, but that is a significant number.

 

I have pulled a spare black brake beam.  I will try to get it in the mail to you yet today.

Kind Regards,

 

Mike

Mike Brusky Chief Executive Officer w: classonemodelworks.com e: mike.brusky@ classonemodelworks.com p: 816-243-0044 o: 8610 NW 107th Terrace, Kansas City, MO 64153 We help people build “State-of-the-Art” model railroads

 

On Aug 22, 2023, at 8:01 AM, carrollhome <[e-mail]> wrote:

Thanks, no worries. I was planning on just fixing it, but figured you likely wanted to have some idea of how many might have issues.

 

Thanks,

 

Sheldon Stroh 

 

 

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy Tablet

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Mike Brusky <[e-mail]>

Date: 8/22/23 8:16 AM (GMT-05:00)

To: [e-mail]

Cc: [e-mail]

Subject: Re: [Contact Us] Problems with GSC flat car

 

Hello Sheldon,

 

The cast frame is pliable, so holding the center deck, you can put downward pressure on the end deck to straighten it.  We suggest taking the truck off first.  We have some spare parts, so we will get a brake beam sent out to you as soon as we can - we are leaving for National Train Show, so if we can’t get it sent out today, we will send it as soon as we get back on Tuesday next week.

 

Another customer who used the 148s shimmed the box to get them level, so you may try that if you want to use the 148s.

 

Let us know if you have any problems straightening the frame.  We will be publishing a video on doing this shortly.

Kind Regards,

 

Mike

Mike Brusky Chief Executive Officer w: classonemodelworks.com e: mike.brusky@ classonemodelworks.com p: 816-243-0044 o: 8610 NW 107th Terrace, Kansas City, MO 64153 We help people build “State-of-the-Art” model railroads

 

On Aug 21, 2023, at 10:22 PM, '[e-mail]' via Contact Us <[e-mail]> wrote:

Gentlemen,

 

Now that I have had a chance to play with my new GSC flat car, a few problems are apparent.

 

The cast frame of the car appears to be ever so slightly bent, causing a coupler height issue.

 

One of the brake beam details on one truck is broken and partly missing. The damaged part was not in the package?

 

I can see where putting my desired couplers on the model will be a bit more of a project than I thought after watching your video -  a pair of Kadee 148 couplers drooped significantly.

 

Attached are some photos. 

 

Your thoughts please.

 

Sheldon Stroh 

<20230820_220824.jpg><20230820_220831.jpg><20230820_220858.jpg><20230820_220919.jpg><20230820_220946.jpg><20230820_221937.jpg><20230820_222006.jpg>

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

maxman

 

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 

Yes, very nice looking cars, as long as you didn't get one with the warped body that had the couplers sticking upward at the ends.

And you didn't happen to pay full price for one only to have them offering them at half price.  They didn't make any friends around here when they did that.

 

The bodies were not warped, there was simply an issue with a brake pipe not properly located which prevented the floor and underframe from fitting together correctly.

It was easily fixed and they stood behind the product 100%

All the "good" roadnames were sold out long before the sale - This is no different than what Broadway Limited did all the time when they first started up.

And if you preordered it you got a nice discount on what you wanted - not the left overs.

I was one of two people who first decovered the cause and easy fix to the problem. Sheldon

 

 

 

 

Oh?  I guess if you say so.  They put out a video showing how to make the "correction", but I don't think they mentioned a brakepipe anywhere.  And the correction involved grabbing the car in the center and pressing down on the ends.  I did this and the couplers still ended up too high.  And any further bending resulted in the inboard axle each end truck raising upward off the rails.

So far as pricing is concerned, I also preordered, so I think I received whatever that initial discount was.  But then a month or so ago they offered two of the "good" roadnames buy 4 and get 4 free.  Made me feel like a sucker for pre-ordering.

 

That video was before another customer and myself figured out the real problem. They later contacted all their customers directly with the real solution, and stopped shipping cars until they inspected and repaired them all.

It did not take me long to figure out that car was not in fact bent, it was simply not all the way together on one end.

I guess everyone has a different idea of what the good roadnames are. I looked at sale, nothing left that interested me. I guess they miss judged with roadnames would sell the best? 

Sheldon 

[Lazers]

---

[maxman]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

 

Yes, very nice looking cars, as long as you didn't get one with the warped body that had the couplers sticking upward at the ends.

And you didn't happen to pay full price for one only to have them offering them at half price.  They didn't make any friends around here when they did that.

 

The bodies were not warped, there was simply an issue with a brake pipe not properly located which prevented the floor and underframe from fitting together correctly.

It was easily fixed and they stood behind the product 100%

All the "good" roadnames were sold out long before the sale - This is no different than what Broadway Limited did all the time when they first started up.

And if you preordered it you got a nice discount on what you wanted - not the left overs.

I was one of two people who first decovered the cause and easy fix to the problem. Sheldon

 

Oh?  I guess if you say so.  They put out a video showing how to make the "correction", but I don't think they mentioned a brakepipe anywhere.  And the correction involved grabbing the car in the center and pressing down on the ends.  I did this and the couplers still ended up too high.  And any further bending resulted in the inboard axle each end truck raising upward off the rails.

So far as pricing is concerned, I also preordered, so I think I received whatever that initial discount was.  But then a month or so ago they offered two of the "good" roadnames buy 4 and get 4 free.  Made me feel like a sucker for pre-ordering.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

tstage

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

tstage

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I think we will see more and more products sold directly by the manufacturer, like the nice GSC depressed center flat car I recently purchased from ClassOneModelWorks.

Those are indeed very nice, Sheldon.  I picked up the one-and-only version of their GSC flat cars that fit my era: Erie.  (The B&O version was just outside it. )  I was quite impressed with the detailing.

Tom

What is your era?

Sheldon

 

 

Early 40s to early 50s (1952), Sheldon.  I believe the B&O was mid/late-50s?

Back to the topic at hand.  Indeed, sad news about the demise of both companies.

Tom

 

The B&O bought their one copy in 1952/53. As produced the B&O model reflects how it looked about 1969-76, but the B&O had not changed the style of the paint scheme, only installed roller bearings at some point and added ACI labels.

So, close enough for me.

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

maxman

 

 

tstage

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I think we will see more and more products sold directly by the manufacturer, like the nice GSC depressed center flat car I recently purchased from ClassOneModelWorks.

 

 

Those are indeed very nice, Sheldon.  I picked up the one-and-only version of their GSC flat cars that fit my era: Erie.  (The B&O version was just outside it. )  I was quite impressed with the detailing.

Tom

 

 

 

 

Yes, very nice looking cars, as long as you didn't get one with the warped body that had the couplers sticking upward at the ends.

And you didn't happen to pay full price for one only to have them offering them at half price.  They didn't make any friends around here when they did that.

But all that is food for another thread.

 

The bodies were not warped, there was simply an issue with a brake pipe not properly located which prevented the floor and underframe from fitting together correctly.

It was easily fixed and they stood behind the product 100%

All the "good" roadnames were sold out long before the sale - This is no different than what Broadway Limited did all the time when they first started up.

And if you preordered it you got a nice discount on what you wanted - not the left overs.

I was one of two people who first decovered the cause and easy fix to the problem. Had several conversations with one of the owners.

Sheldon

[maxman]

tstage

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I think we will see more and more products sold directly by the manufacturer, like the nice GSC depressed center flat car I recently purchased from ClassOneModelWorks.

 

 

Those are indeed very nice, Sheldon.  I picked up the one-and-only version of their GSC flat cars that fit my era: Erie.  (The B&O version was just outside it. )  I was quite impressed with the detailing.

Tom

 

Yes, very nice looking cars, as long as you didn't get one with the warped body that had the couplers sticking upward at the ends.

And you didn't happen to pay full price for one only to have them offering them at half price.  They didn't make any friends around here when they did that.

But all that is food for another thread.

[tstage]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

tstage

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I think we will see more and more products sold directly by the manufacturer, like the nice GSC depressed center flat car I recently purchased from ClassOneModelWorks.

Those are indeed very nice, Sheldon.  I picked up the one-and-only version of their GSC flat cars that fit my era: Erie.  (The B&O version was just outside it. )  I was quite impressed with the detailing.

Tom

What is your era?

Sheldon

Early 40s to early 50s (1952), Sheldon.  I believe the B&O was mid/late-50s?

Back to the topic at hand.  Indeed, sad news about the demise of both companies.

Tom

[hbgatsf]

Debt has allowed many to amass fortunes, but it has brought about the ruination of many more.  Arrogance is not conducive to success.  It leads to underestimating risks.  

I hope MTS wasn't holding a note.  

[AntonioFP45]

Wow! I've purchased products from them before and received them within a week. Good customer service on the phone also. 

So, in a nutshell, MB Klein is gone?

Very saddening.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

At the risk of criticism, I will say this about Hattons, their entry into the US market impressed me as arrogant and poorly planned/researched.

When in Rome......

They tried to promote the "era" concept that is popular in European model manufacturing - but North American rail history is too complex to be divided up into such a short list of "eras".

They used terms that myself, and I would bet a great many other North American modelers, were not familiar with and did not understand. "range" for "product line", "outline" for "prototype". 

While not people in this hobby, I have multiple friends who immigrated here from the UK, and American friends who have spent extended periods of time in the UK. So I am not totally unexposed to the differences in word useage, but Hatton's gave me that "we are going to convert you" feeling.....

And they say we are arrogant - well, sometimes we are. 

But if you want my money you need to be able to communicate with me.

I searched their site several times to see what they might have of interest - never found one thing.

Sheldon

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

tstage

 

 

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I think we will see more and more products sold directly by the manufacturer, like the nice GSC depressed center flat car I recently purchased from ClassOneModelWorks.

 

 

Those are indeed very nice, Sheldon.  I picked up the one-and-only version of their GSC flat cars that fit my era: Erie.  (The B&O version was just outside it. )  I was quite impressed with detailing.

Tom

 

What is your era? I bought the B&O version and removed the ACI labels to back date it to my era. The roller bearing trucks may not be truely correct for "as built" on the one car B&O had, but those bearings did exist in 1954, so I will stretch that detail a little.

Sheldon

[tstage]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

I think we will see more and more products sold directly by the manufacturer, like the nice GSC depressed center flat car I recently purchased from ClassOneModelWorks.

Those are indeed very nice, Sheldon.  I picked up the one-and-only version of their GSC flat cars that fit my era: Erie.  (The B&O version was just outside it. )  I was quite impressed with the detailing.

Tom

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

This is pretty crazy, but what we don't know is how long the ModelTrainStuff deal was in the works.

I know absolutely nothing about UK business or tax law, but it is possible completing the MTS deal even with closing the business being a possibility, could have tax advantages?

It seems that the very business model that built MB Klein (discounting), back in an age where it was nearly unheard of in this business, may have played a role in its demise.

I was just speaking last week with the owner of one of the manufacturers in the hobby, and we discussed that while the hobby is not dieing, it does seem some of the supply chain infrastructure is "fragile". 

Interesting development to say the least. 

And while MTS was a valueable source, there are still lots of people selling model trains. 

Just got word my two year old preorder for Bowser RS-3's is C&O are on their way - right from Bowsers own online operation - ToyTrainHeaven.

I think we will see more and more products sold directly by the manufacturer, like the nice GSC depressed center flat car I recently purchased from ClassOneModelWorks.

And owner I was speaking with last week sells his product direct to the consumer.....

Sheldon 

[drgwcs]

Voyager

It appears that Hatton’s got caught in an unanticipated cash flow crisis. Although it had a long standing retail store in the UK, it expanded its business through early adaptation to e commerce. That step opened new markets abroad as well as at home and made it more of a global firm. No doubt Hatton’s purchase of Train Stuff was an effort to further extend its international operation. Doing so, however, probably drew down its capital reserves during last year. Then, to make matters worse, it was hit with a supply problem this fall when scheduled shipments from Chinese manufacturers (still suffering from the economic disruptions of the pandemic era) failed to arrive on time for the Christmas rush. So sales must have fallen way below expectations, as did profits needed to cover its North America expansion. In its recent closure message to clients, Hatton’s noted that profit margins were already decreasing due to Brexit measures, while demographic changes were shrinking its client base and affecting sales. Given the combination of these factors, its owner, Christine Hatton, seems to have concluded that the business was no longer viable and thus best closed down while it could be done in an orderly way. Its loss will be felt both in the US (through the demise of Train Stuff) and the UK.

Cash flow sounds like it- wonder how much debt they got into buying Kline's- apparently too much. This collapsed pretty quickly. It reminds me of what happened with a couple of discount chains. Ames bought out Hill's- would up getting themselves in a lot of debt and sunk quickly after. Same thing happened with McCrorys and TG&Y a decade earlier. Both got into a lot of debt and did not know the market that they had bought out.

Jim

[Voyager]

It appears that Hatton’s got caught in an unanticipated cash flow crisis. Although it had a long standing retail store in the UK, it expanded its business through early adaptation to e commerce. That step opened new markets abroad as well as at home and made it more of a global firm. No doubt Hatton’s purchase of Train Stuff was an effort to further extend its international operation. Doing so, however, probably drew down its capital reserves during last year. Then, to make matters worse, it was hit with a supply problem this fall when scheduled shipments from Chinese manufacturers (still suffering from the economic disruptions of the pandemic era) failed to arrive on time for the Christmas rush. So sales must have fallen way below expectations, as did profits needed to cover its North America expansion. In its recent closure message to clients, Hatton’s noted that profit margins were already decreasing due to Brexit measures, while demographic changes were shrinking its client base and affecting sales. Given the combination of these factors, its owner, Christine Hatton, seems to have concluded that the business was no longer viable and thus best closed down while it could be done in an orderly way. Its loss will be felt both in the US (through the demise of Train Stuff) and the UK.

[richhotrain]

What a crazy story this has turned into!

Rich

[riogrande5761]

buoyboy

Has it been confirmed that Hatton's really bought them? I just read on Facebook that Hatton's is closing down. 

 

That is the real kicker.

[NorthBrit]

Hattons did buy them.

Since then a large amount of items were due from China to Hattons in October/November 2023.   They did not arrive.  The Chinese company said it would be at least May before they would be in the U.K..

No products from China, Hattons therefore could not fulfil their Christmas orders.

Hattons had to rely on selling their second hand items  to survive.

No new products.   Very little second hand items left. End of the line.

 

David

[buoyboy]

Has it been confirmed that Hatton's really bought them? I just read on Facebook that Hatton's is closing down. 

 

[BigDaddy]

MidlandPacific

Sad, I liked it, particularly the old store, and a lot of the people who worked there were buffs themselves.

https://blog.modeltrainstuff.com/remembering-theodore-ted-klein/

[MidlandPacific]

So if Hatton's bought them, and the Cockeysville warehouse closes, all that's really left is a recognized brand name and a website that will be fulfilled from....wherever.

It's sad, but after the move from Gay Street, you could see the transition coming, as the selection out front got smaller and smaller, and the focus on the online business got bigger and bigger- they replaced staff with computers that linked to.....the website.

Sad, I liked it, particularly the old store, and a lot of the people who worked there were buffs themselves.  

 

[hbgatsf]

Doughless

Unless its some evil member of SPECTRE trying to fund world domination....LOL.

 

 

Well, Cyberdyne Systems doesn't seem to be too far off so why not SPECTRE?

[Doughless]

Warehousing and shipping from Nebraska makes a lot more sense than performing those functions from one extreme side of the country.  Not to mention any USPS activity seems to get bogged down when going through the mid Atlantic region.

But I was wondering what was going on.  They were fireselling some items that I needed, so I bought them.  

Unfortunately after about 2 weeks, the order still says "Awaiting Fulfillment"

Hopefully, it sounds like I will still have the ability to buy train stuff at reasonable prices, shipping cost, and timeliness.  What form it takes or who the ultimate family is that receives the profit is of little interest to me. 

Unless its some evil member of SPECTRE trying to fund world domination....LOL.