From what I understand the economy in the UK is worse than ours, its harder to sell things there between inflation, taxes, high energy prices due to "green" policies.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Personally, I think the only way the used merchandise thing works in on platforms like Ebay or in person like the train shows.
Personally, I think the only way the used merchandise thing works in on platforms like Ebay or in person like the train shows.
Rich
Alton Junction
Doughless richhotrain Doughless I would think that who owns Klein's now is of little interest to most buyers. That depends on who is running the operation. Most, if not all, changes of ownership result in a change of business plans, directly affecting inventory, pricing, shipping, etc. As a buyer of MTS in the past, I become immediately wary of any change in ownership. Rich I guess so. I don't think its possible to predict what a new owner will do with a business. If the business model in the UK eventually shrank and died, I would not assume that they would then take that same failed business model to the USA. Based upon what Hatton's has said, their business model has been sinking for a while, so they jumped ship before it completely sank and bought Klein's to continue on selling model trains. I don't think that means they want to turn Klein's into Hatton's. JMO. What seems to be happening is that the new owner has no emotional ties/ allegiences to the Baltimore area and is simply moving Ops to a more economically advantageous area...which is probably a positive business decision. OTOH family owners tend to have alligiences to their hometown locality where they started years ago...when its may not be the best current business decision to keep it there.
richhotrain Doughless I would think that who owns Klein's now is of little interest to most buyers. That depends on who is running the operation. Most, if not all, changes of ownership result in a change of business plans, directly affecting inventory, pricing, shipping, etc. As a buyer of MTS in the past, I become immediately wary of any change in ownership. Rich
Doughless I would think that who owns Klein's now is of little interest to most buyers.
I would think that who owns Klein's now is of little interest to most buyers.
That depends on who is running the operation. Most, if not all, changes of ownership result in a change of business plans, directly affecting inventory, pricing, shipping, etc. As a buyer of MTS in the past, I become immediately wary of any change in ownership.
I guess so. I don't think its possible to predict what a new owner will do with a business. If the business model in the UK eventually shrank and died, I would not assume that they would then take that same failed business model to the USA.
Based upon what Hatton's has said, their business model has been sinking for a while, so they jumped ship before it completely sank and bought Klein's to continue on selling model trains. I don't think that means they want to turn Klein's into Hatton's. JMO.
What seems to be happening is that the new owner has no emotional ties/ allegiences to the Baltimore area and is simply moving Ops to a more economically advantageous area...which is probably a positive business decision. OTOH family owners tend to have alligiences to their hometown locality where they started years ago...when its may not be the best current business decision to keep it there.
Completely agreed.
It is starting to look like this was the plan all along, Buy Kleins, streamline its operation, get out of used trains and retail in the UK.
Sheldon
Doughless I don't think its possible to predict what a new owner will do with a business.
I don't think its possible to predict what a new owner will do with a business.
- Douglas
NorthBrit Douglas That information is on Hattons U.K. site. Basically purchases can be made on second hand items. They have no new stock from manufacturing companies (as I understand it). They say any preorders on their own generic stock due in May 2024, they will be on sale then to those people who preordered. That appears to me some staff will remain at their Widnes, U.K. building until May (at least). David
Douglas
That information is on Hattons U.K. site.
Basically purchases can be made on second hand items. They have no new stock from manufacturing companies (as I understand it).
They say any preorders on their own generic stock due in May 2024, they will be on sale then to those people who preordered.
That appears to me some staff will remain at their Widnes, U.K. building until May (at least).
David
Yes, I know that. The discussion about Hatton's in this thread is talking about what is happening to Hatton's business in the UK. While that may be interesting, the topic is about the USA business Klein's.
Other's in this thread seem to think that they can predict what can/is/will happen with Klein's USA based upon what's happening with Hatton's UK. One likely has nothing to do with the other, even if the same family that owns Hattons now owns Kleins.
York1 blabride Has anyone checked to see if Hatton's actually has a physical address in Nebraska and if so what do they do with it? If anyone across the pond should move an outlet here I would think it would be Hannant's, which is a huge player in the scale modeling community. Here is the latest map of Fremont, Nebraska, which is about 20 miles northwest of Omaha:
blabride Has anyone checked to see if Hatton's actually has a physical address in Nebraska and if so what do they do with it? If anyone across the pond should move an outlet here I would think it would be Hannant's, which is a huge player in the scale modeling community.
Here is the latest map of Fremont, Nebraska, which is about 20 miles northwest of Omaha:
MB Klein or Hattons don't have to move to that location as a buisness. They are likely going to contract out a generalist "Drop shipping" warehouse company, and use that as a third party provider to operate their shipping and stocking; then funnel the profits to wherever they are at. Reduces overhead costs and all that, but increases the risk for the customer since now instead of a specialized model train company handling the product it is a third party warehouse that might also ship underwear, socks, cheap electronics, baby formula, wigs and skateboards all from under the same roof. Minimum risk for the company owner, a small chunk of profit for a warehouse operator, and higher risk for the consumer their goods may be mis-identified or mis-handled by some careless packing company.
Sales tax collection changed after a 2018 Supreme Court decision that said that if a company sells things remotely (mail order, internet) to people located in other states, they can be required to collect the other state's sales tax. Before that, they only had to collect sales tax in states where they had a physical presence.
I believe most states with sales tax began requiring out-of-state remote vendors to collect sales tax for their state soon after that. Each state has their own criteria on how much a vendor has to sell in the state before they have to collect sales tax. The vendor would have to keep track of how much sales tax they collected from each state, and send what they collected to each state.
Use tax generally means you've bought something in/from another state that either didn't charge any sales tax, or just charged sales tax for their state. So if my state charges 5% sales tax and I buy something with no sales tax, I'd pay my state use tax of 5%. If I bought something in another state that charged me 4% sales tax, I may have to pay the 1% difference to my state. Of course, each state is different on how they do it, how much you have to buy or sell before it affects you, etc.
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
wjstix Hatton's ads in MR give the web address as www.hattonsmodelmoney.com, no separate US website I could see. Their website has no reference to having a US subsidiary. I could find nothing yet from Klein's about how this affect them. Seems unlikely Hatton's would just abandon the UK and move to the US? I believe the only thing they did in the US was buy and sell used ("pre-owned") stuff, and their website says: Pre-Owned We have suspended offering on and purchasing any Pre-Owned collections effective immediately. Any collections which are already with us or that are en route will be processed and paid for ASAP. Pre-Owned stock will continue to be added to the website for sale each weekday until we run out of items to add. Pre-Owned credit can continue to be used for in stock items, including those in our closing down sale. https://www.hattonsmodelmoney.com/index/disbanded
Hatton's ads in MR give the web address as www.hattonsmodelmoney.com, no separate US website I could see. Their website has no reference to having a US subsidiary. I could find nothing yet from Klein's about how this affect them. Seems unlikely Hatton's would just abandon the UK and move to the US? I believe the only thing they did in the US was buy and sell used ("pre-owned") stuff, and their website says:
We have suspended offering on and purchasing any Pre-Owned collections effective immediately.
Any collections which are already with us or that are en route will be processed and paid for ASAP.
Pre-Owned stock will continue to be added to the website for sale each weekday until we run out of items to add.
Pre-Owned credit can continue to be used for in stock items, including those in our closing down sale.
https://www.hattonsmodelmoney.com/index/disbanded
I assume that website is for Hatton's which is a UK business.
My MBKlein website, login ID, and email address haven't changed, so I assume whatever is happening with Hattons, if anything, is not impacting Klein's
It seems that Klein's is going strictly online and is moving its warehouse to a cheaper location. That's really the news here, IMO.
blabrideHas anyone checked to see if Hatton's actually has a physical address in Nebraska and if so what do they do with it? If anyone across the pond should move an outlet here I would think it would be Hannant's, which is a huge player in the scale modeling community.
York1 John
Let's just remember there is absolutely no evidence that Hatton's is closing in the UK to move to the US. Hatton's bought Klein, and now out of the blue Hatton's is going out of business. I would assume if they bought Klein with the idea of using that as entry to move here they would say so.
It appears they are financially sound, although incurring losses in the last year. Sounds like Brexit may be an issue, since about 20% of their sales are to non-UK countries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RgW4qCgYns
Whether an online vendor charges me sales tax or not, I have to keep track of all my online purchases here in OH on my yearly state income tax return because of "OH Use Tax" . Most vendors I deal with automatically add the sales tax to the purchase. However, there are still a few that don't.
I'm guessing most states now require vendors to collect sales tax on purchases and residents who receive those said purchases. My understanding is that the "purchase from" state and the "shipped to" state split the tax...but I could be mistaken.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Sales Tax is one of the major reasons I think MB Klein started the rewards program. Evidently Maryland has become pretty strict about mail order business's in the state collecting sales tax on out of state purchases. What Maryland does with it who knows. This is the main reason I quit ordering from them without a reward since they started collecting Taxes from me down here in Texas.
Not sure if Nebraska is the same. I have not purchased online from Spring Creek yet to see. I have bought from them at local trains shows here which they do collect tax. The other two mail order sites I buy from still do not charge me taxes.
Has anyone checked to see if Hatton's actually has a physical address in Nebraska and if so what do they do with it? If anyone across the pond should move an outlet here I would think it would be Hannant's, which is a huge player in the scale modeling community.
SB
azrail It is easier to sell from the US than from the UK with its GST, and the problem of shipping to the EU (which is probably the EU's attempt to punish the UK for leaving the EU) The only taxes you pay with inside US orders is the sales tax of the state you are shipping the item to.
It is easier to sell from the US than from the UK with its GST, and the problem of shipping to the EU (which is probably the EU's attempt to punish the UK for leaving the EU) The only taxes you pay with inside US orders is the sales tax of the state you are shipping the item to.
Exactly. I would take my money and leave the UK for North America as well. And I don't blame the UK for the economic condtions over there, all of Europe shares the blame.
So the sale may have just been about thinning out slow moving items before moving to the new location. Likely somewhere with lower labor and business costs than Maryland.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL There is another scenario no one is considering. Hattons purchased ModelTrainStuff and is moving that operation to whatever location they already had in the US. Hattons is now going to close the UK operation and focus on the North American operation under the MTS name. That might be way smarter than trying to establish the Hattons name in the US. Sheldon
There is another scenario no one is considering.
Hattons purchased ModelTrainStuff and is moving that operation to whatever location they already had in the US.
Hattons is now going to close the UK operation and focus on the North American operation under the MTS name.
That might be way smarter than trying to establish the Hattons name in the US.
That's the way I read it all along. I assume that the British company formed a USA company to buy Kleins as a separate entity. Because the British company is closing, that doesn't mean the USA company can't still operate as a separate entity. And if Hatton's is actually liquidating in an orderly fashion as to leave no debt, the USA company may be debt free at the end of it (athough they could have pushed down the acquisition debt to the USA company).
As another has said, Klien's prices are back to being as high as ever, and their "moving liquidation" sale appears to be over.
AEP528 NittanyLion For one, Hatton's own managing director said they did, so... Okay, please provide a link or source for Richard Davies' statement.
NittanyLion For one, Hatton's own managing director said they did, so...
For one, Hatton's own managing director said they did, so...
Okay, please provide a link or source for Richard Davies' statement.
Its on his LinkedIn:
I've spent a lot of time in USA as they've come to the forefront of e-commerce retail. During this time I developed an interest in developing a commercial presence there. We concluded the acquisition of MB Klein in September 2023
AEP528 Soo Line fan AEP528 So can anyone provide actual proof of the MTS purchase by Hatton's? All I can find online are people in Internet forums stating it's true. And we all know Internet forums are worth less than one pays for them. In the October 2023 issue of MRH on page 37 it states: MB Klein has been purchased by Hattons. Hattons official Yvonne Wood says, “We saw a lot of similarities between MB Klein and Hatton’s, so we acquired the company. We are looking forward to expanding their services” According to the Hatton's website, the only employee named Yvonne is a helpdesk assistant.
Soo Line fan AEP528 So can anyone provide actual proof of the MTS purchase by Hatton's? All I can find online are people in Internet forums stating it's true. And we all know Internet forums are worth less than one pays for them. In the October 2023 issue of MRH on page 37 it states: MB Klein has been purchased by Hattons. Hattons official Yvonne Wood says, “We saw a lot of similarities between MB Klein and Hatton’s, so we acquired the company. We are looking forward to expanding their services”
AEP528 So can anyone provide actual proof of the MTS purchase by Hatton's? All I can find online are people in Internet forums stating it's true. And we all know Internet forums are worth less than one pays for them.
So can anyone provide actual proof of the MTS purchase by Hatton's?
All I can find online are people in Internet forums stating it's true. And we all know Internet forums are worth less than one pays for them.
In the October 2023 issue of MRH on page 37 it states:
MB Klein has been purchased by Hattons. Hattons official Yvonne Wood says, “We saw a lot of similarities between MB Klein and Hatton’s, so we acquired the company. We are looking forward to expanding their services”
According to the Hatton's website, the only employee named Yvonne is a helpdesk assistant.
Okay so either Joe or one of his staff decided to make up a story for their well respected magazine?
Or they called up Hattons like a professional publication would and spoke to a misinformed / rumor mongering employee who had nothing better to do that day but make up a story?
Jim
AEP528 So can anyone provide actual proof of the MTS purchase by Hatton's?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL IC_Tom rrebell To address some of the comments, this was nothing more than another leveraged buy out that went south and a short term money squeeze. They borrowed money short term and got caught in the intrest rate hikes. To finish them off they did not have a good control over their supply chain. It always amazes me how stupid even large corperations are at times, many look short term rather than the long haul and don't take into consideration the risks involved in each move. This scenario is beginning to make more sense as time goes on. If modeltrainstuff.com follows suit with similar shutting down announcements, that will confirm it. So far though, I see no word from that end. Why else would they be having such a dramatic sale? Moving or closing, both good reasons for the sale. Sheldon
IC_Tom rrebell To address some of the comments, this was nothing more than another leveraged buy out that went south and a short term money squeeze. They borrowed money short term and got caught in the intrest rate hikes. To finish them off they did not have a good control over their supply chain. It always amazes me how stupid even large corperations are at times, many look short term rather than the long haul and don't take into consideration the risks involved in each move. This scenario is beginning to make more sense as time goes on. If modeltrainstuff.com follows suit with similar shutting down announcements, that will confirm it. So far though, I see no word from that end.
rrebell To address some of the comments, this was nothing more than another leveraged buy out that went south and a short term money squeeze. They borrowed money short term and got caught in the intrest rate hikes. To finish them off they did not have a good control over their supply chain. It always amazes me how stupid even large corperations are at times, many look short term rather than the long haul and don't take into consideration the risks involved in each move.
To address some of the comments, this was nothing more than another leveraged buy out that went south and a short term money squeeze. They borrowed money short term and got caught in the intrest rate hikes. To finish them off they did not have a good control over their supply chain. It always amazes me how stupid even large corperations are at times, many look short term rather than the long haul and don't take into consideration the risks involved in each move.
This scenario is beginning to make more sense as time goes on. If modeltrainstuff.com follows suit with similar shutting down announcements, that will confirm it. So far though, I see no word from that end.
Why else would they be having such a dramatic sale? Moving or closing, both good reasons for the sale.
There's no "drama" to MTS's prices, now. Except for a very few items, prices are higher than ever. Again, if we see an announcement from MTS, the we'll know for sure.
AEP528
So can anyone provide actual proof of the MTS purchase by Hatton's? All I can find online are people in Internet forums stating it's true. And we all know Internet forums are worth less than one pays for them.
...and now, Hatton's has announced they are closing:
https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail?id=1498
This is quite a big deal in Britain. Hatton's has been around since 1946. It would be kinda like in the US if say Walthers suddenly announced they were closing down.
Maxman. Yes to everyone at first glance it looked bent, but when bending did not fix it, I looked closer and found the problem. Took it further apart, found the brake line preventing proper assembly, moved it, car went back to gether perfectly.
I will have to find the photos and put them on Photobucket, a task for after work.