richhotrainSo, I ask, what would be the appeal to a buyer? The name?
Mike
Water Level Route richhotrain So, I ask, what would be the appeal to a buyer? The name? Absolutely. Happens with some regularity in business. An established name brand is very valuable. (In this case an established and well known internet presence.)
richhotrain So, I ask, what would be the appeal to a buyer? The name?
Absolutely. Happens with some regularity in business. An established name brand is very valuable. (In this case an established and well known internet presence.)
Rich
Alton Junction
A return with a greater probability?
It is much easier to sell a business which is ongoing. Harder to sell one which is having a "going out of business sale" or which has closed down.
People hear the name and immediately think "Oh, that one is closed," end of the story.
I've witnessed people walk up to a storefront, see it is empty and turn around and walk away. They didn't bother to go any further and missed the sheet of paper on the door stating the business had moved a few doors down.
Everyone is posting the "we'll be back", but are they getting a cached page or a new one? It is also possible it is serving up an older version of the website.
Almost a year ago I had asked how product distribution worked in the hobby. See https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/295076.aspx. Between the answers in that thread, this one, and the Tony's thread I have learned a lot.
I also know corportate finance. I find it hard to believe that Hattons did not do their due dillegence when purchasing MTS, especially if they had to outbid Intermountain. Stuff happens and they had a problem with the UK operation and shipments from China, but that doesn't mean they didn't have a plan in the US that is playing out.
MTS was one of the sites that only sold items that they had physically in stock. That changed when Hattons got involved. Items started shipping from Nebraska, even splitting orders. It looks to me that Hattons sold off what was in stock in Cockeysville and supplemented that stock with items from Nebraska.
They obviously didn't do the transaction for the real estate since that is shuttered. The message on the MTS website today hints that they did want the name. We are about to see what their plan has been.
Edit - I don't know why the link I put in doesn't work. I used the insert link button. If someone tells me what I did wrong I'll fix it.
Rick
Yeah, it is a site glitch.
https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/295076.aspx
Corrected by adding a html code in brackets as in this example:
cs.trains/url by Edmund, on Flickr
Regards, Ed
I would love to see it return if it's as good as before (or even better).
Paul
hbgatsf Almost a year ago I had asked how product distribution worked in the hobby. See https://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/295076.aspx. Between the answers in that thread, this one, and the Tony's thread I have learned a lot. I also know corportate finance. I find it hard to believe that Hattons did not do their due dillegence when purchasing MTS, especially if they had to outbid Intermountain. Stuff happens and they had a problem with the UK operation and shipments from China, but that doesn't mean they didn't have a plan in the US that is playing out. MTS was one of the sites that only sold items that they had physically in stock. That changed when Hattons got involved. Items started shipping from Nebraska, even splitting orders. It looks to me that Hattons sold off what was in stock in Cockeysville and supplemented that stock with items from Nebraska. They obviously didn't do the transaction for the real estate since that is shuttered. The message on the MTS website today hints that they did want the name. We are about to see what their plan has been. Edit - I don't know why the link I put in doesn't work. I used the insert link button. If someone tells me what I did wrong I'll fix it.
Rick,
In my view, everything Hattons did here in North America was a mis-step.
European terms in their ads, thinking that an "era" based system would work or would help, ads that practically preyed on the widows of modelers with large collections, and possibly the idea that they could be in the drop ship business.
As I have explained several times, I can't imagine any of the big North American players going for that.
As explained in that other thread and here - to sell at the lowest prices you need to buy at the lowest prices.
The big players are not going to give the lowest prices and then do your shipping and inventory control for you.
They give their best prices to the big retailers who take case lots as soon as the container is unpacked from China.
I don't buy from a lot of different places, especially at this point in the hobby for me, but I don't have any indication that anyone is having any large amount of product drop shipped.
In fact, it makes little sense, despite the direction Kleins went, some of the biggest retailers on the web still have brick and mortar stores - they need the inventory there so they can sell it out the front door or the back door.
If Hattons was filling orders from that distributor in Nebraska, their margins were too small.
Why would that company sell even a penny below the prices they are selling to small shops if they have to drop ship small orders?
In this business the drop ship thing simply does not add up on a large scale.
OK, maybe an arrangement for "emerency" special orders with some extra charge, but as the whole business model? I think not.
The sales volume of any one sku does not support the idea.
Sheldon
Many a leveraged buy out has gone bust with only the name remaining, Toys Are Us is a prime example or a buisness fails like Bed Bath And Beyond and only the name remains.
rrebell Many a leveraged buy out has gone bust with only the name remaining, Toys Are Us is a prime example or a buisness fails like Bed Bath And Beyond and only the name remains.
While it is true that some deals didn't work out (particularly when the acquired complany was already on the ropes) there have been many more mergers, acquisitions and buyouts that have been successful.
As I have said a couple of times it seems to me that Hattons has a plan. We just need to wait to see what it is and if it will work.
The European era system isn't a bad idea, but one retailer isn't going to be able to implement it and there's a lot of inertia to overcome
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The only popcorn that's left is what's under the seats...along with the licorice jujubees.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Sheldon nails it. The drop ship piece is the deal breaker. No distributor is going perform extra services without charging for those services. The extra cost will kill any meaningful discounts. Add the extra time to drop ship, and any competitive advantage the original MTS had is gone. And as the interlude/intermission/reorganization continues, thousands of old MTS customers have moved on to find new online sources.
I dealt with Walthers, Great Planes, and Horizon as distributors at my shop. I made inquiries of Lifelike (not owned by Walthers at the time) to buy direct. Sure, they would be glad to do so. Provide proof that I had bought $40,000 worth of Lifelike products a month for six months from my distributors, and then Lifelike would sell me $40,000 worth of stuff moving forward. That is a LOT of product and a lot of cash. I doubt that I sold $40,000 worth of Lifelike products in the three years I was open. Hattons may be experiencing a similar issue, with slightly higher inventory requirements, and they may have significant cash issues.
tstage The only popcorn that's left is what's under the seats...along with the licorice jujubees.
What about nonpareils?
I'm assuming that there is some core to the MTS operation that has value to somebody. But it only takes $1 to buy the rights/ownership to something, so who knows what prices were paid for the MTS brand....assuming its not some reincarnation of Hatton's ownership restarting the brand.
It seems that something was spun off.
I could see InterMountain buying the name.....it would want a trusted yet generic name to sell its products through, as well as others' products if they are truly opening a full service store front.
- Douglas
Tin Can IIAnd as the interlude/intermission/reorganization continues, thousands of old MTS customers have moved on to find new online sources.
I must be one of the few who have absolutely no loyalty to retailers. The only service I really demand is to have quick shipping and the ability to return a defective product. Since they all offer that as efficiently as Ebay retailers do, it all comes down to price and availability to me.....and website interaction.
As mentioned, I didn't care for some of the MTS loyalty programs. So if MTS comes back again, I'll check them out....and they may gain a customer they didn't have before. I suspect others will check out the new site/ownership, if that's what's going on here...
NittanyLion The European era system isn't a bad idea, but one retailer isn't going to be able to implement it and there's a lot of inertia to overcome
I took a close look at the proposed era "scheme" from Hattons. It was WAY too broad, especially in the older eras.
In Europe and the UK, largely speaking, the governments have ran the railroads almost from the beginning.
This, by its nature, creates higher levels of standardization and uniformity.
And Europe does not represent the wide range of geography, climate, and types of lifestyles in North America from the 1830's to now.
Because in 194 years of North American rail history, most railroad operation has been by private industry, combined with all the factors mentioned above, rail history here is so varied.
The Maryland and Pennsylvania RR was still using wooden truss rod passenger cars in the 1940's. Just one of many short lines of the 40's, and even early 50's that were time capsules of 1915.
The B&O ran rebuilt heavyweight passenger cars until AMTRAK, while other roads had relegated heavyweights to M of W service before the 60's.
Example of my problem with the whole era concept, if an era is from 1950 to 1960, do you mark a locomotive built for the first time in 1958 as being suitible for that era? It surely is not correct for most of that era.
In the older eras, Hattons had ranges of 25 years on more. The face of railroading in 1935 was nothing like 1910.
IF, this is so important, or useful, would it not be just as easy to put "range of use" years specific to a particular piece of eqiupment as modeled and lettered?
I've read on another forum that from an anonymous source that worked at MTS until the end that Intermountain was in the running.
I am having password issues at Trainboard and cannot confirm this but someone else said Intermountain posted on Trainboard:
We've read with slight amusement that InterMountain was somehow involved with the past few months happenings at MB Klein. Perhaps people that used to be involved with InterMountain made an offer for Kleins but the current ownership (almost a decade now) and team had nothing to do with the happenings at Klein. We were involved in no way; none. Just want to end the speculation and rumors.
In these days of fake AI videos and hacked sites, could the MTS "we'll be back" be entirely fake? Sure, these days that is the most likely explanation. Would a company, like Intermountain deny they had been involved in a takeover, sure.
Whatever MTS might become, it is unlikely to be what MB Klein used to be, a Spring Creek MR hobby store where you can actually browse the products before you buy.
Could it be an Internet mail order powerhouse again to compete with Trainworld and the like? It could, but that's not what happened to Caboose. I don't have high hopes.
Sheldon, thanks for your previous answer about Stoneleigh hobby shops.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Does anyone know the record for most responses to a thread?
kasskaboose Does anyone know the record for most responses to a thread?
Dave, hon30critter, has 1,133 on his long running Snow Plow Scratchbuild thread, about 90% of which are his own replies.
A lot more than this thread.......
richhotrainDave, hon30critter, has 1,133 on his long running Snow Plow Scratchbuild thread, about 90% of which are his own replies.
I'm sure there are several people on the forums who would love to take my keyboard away!!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
A guy on another forum commented: "it would be great if responsible good businessmen took it over. I think instead we may see a Caboose Hobbies - Caboose situation, if anything happens at all."
That seems to be the trend when a successful shop is taken over by a new proprietor. The guy who used to run Allied Hobbies in southern California has commented on how successful his shop was but when he sold it to someone else, it went downhill quickly.
And Caboose made a splash claiming to be Caboose Hobbies 2 with a long history yada yada, but it was nothing of the kind and didn't last long. Customers reported within a year or two of opening, the shelves were pretty empty and not getting restocked. Reportedly COVID was the coup de grace, but it may have only hastened what was inevitable.
It seems the "secret sauce" is with the proprietor in determining the success of any model train hobby shop. It appears from the note on the modeltrainstuff site they plan to return. But based on my observatoins over past decades, I'm not holding my breath. Modeltrainstuff will have to re-earn the good will of their past customers.
I know I would tread with caution if/when they reopen. I remember when Caboose opened after Caboose Hobbies closed, I check them out and frankly didn't see any incentive to order from them. They didn't have prices comparable for one thing. In the end, I am glad I didn't order from Caboose because I read reports of orders not getting fulfilled. ISE, the makers of ProtoThrottle wrote an essay on how they had sent product to Caboose and never received payment as well as one of the owners of ISE never got several engines he paid for, nor got a refund.
ATLANTIC CENTRALExample of my problem with the whole era concept, if an era is from 1950 to 1960, do you mark a locomotive built for the first time in 1958 as being suitible for that era? It surely is not correct for most of that era.
Although I agree that the suggested time 'eras' Hatton's proposed aren't great, I think the concept itself has value. As to how it would work, I think it would have as much to do with decoration as with when something was built.
Let's take a CB&Q SD-9 built in say 1955. It would have been delivered in the Burlington's black and gray scheme. Perhaps in the 1960s, it went through a major shopping and was repainted into the Chinese red and gray scheme. In the 1970s and 80s, it was green and black and lettered for Burlington Northern. In the late 90's, it would be repainted into BNSF orange and green.
For someone new to the hobby, this might be confusing. They know SD-9s were built in the 1950s, but may not understand that doesn't mean that a BNSF SD-9 would be appropriate for a transition era layout. Having some type of marking on the package as to the time the model is correct for would be helpful.
wjstix ATLANTIC CENTRAL Example of my problem with the whole era concept, if an era is from 1950 to 1960, do you mark a locomotive built for the first time in 1958 as being suitible for that era? It surely is not correct for most of that era. Although I agree that the suggested time 'eras' Hatton's proposed aren't great, I think the concept itself has value. As to how it would work, I think it would have as much to do with decoration as with when something was built. Let's take a CB&Q SD-9 built in say 1955. It would have been delivered in the Burlington's black and gray scheme. Perhaps in the 1960s, it went through a major shopping and was repainted into the Chinese red and gray scheme. In the 1970s and 80s, it was green and black and lettered for Burlington Northern. In the late 90's, it would be repainted into BNSF orange and green. For someone new to the hobby, this might be confusing. They know SD-9s were built in the 1950s, but may not understand that doesn't mean that a BNSF SD-9 would be appropriate for a transition era layout. Having some type of marking on the package as to the time the model is correct for would be helpful.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Example of my problem with the whole era concept, if an era is from 1950 to 1960, do you mark a locomotive built for the first time in 1958 as being suitible for that era? It surely is not correct for most of that era.
And again, I will repeat my view. If someone is going to do the research to put a model in an "era" it should be just as easy to put model specific info on the package.
This responsibility belongs to the manufacturer, not some random "retailer" who thinks his view best.
Agreed, paint schemes have a lot to do with era.
hon30critter richhotrain Dave, hon30critter, has 1,133 on his long running Snow Plow Scratchbuild thread, about 90% of which are his own replies. I'm sure there are several people on the forums who would love to take my keyboard away!! Cheers!! Dave
richhotrain Dave, hon30critter, has 1,133 on his long running Snow Plow Scratchbuild thread, about 90% of which are his own replies.
And he'll have fun, fun, fun til his daddy takes the keyboard away.
maxman And he'll have fun, fun, fun til his daddy takes the keyboard away.
riogrande5761 A guy on another forum commented: "it would be great if responsible good businessmen took it over. I think instead we may see a Caboose Hobbies - Caboose situation, if anything happens at all." That seems to be the trend when a successful shop is taken over by a new proprietor. The guy who used to run Allied Hobbies in southern California has commented on how successful his shop was but when he sold it to someone else, it went downhill quickly. And Caboose made a splash claiming to be Caboose Hobbies 2 with a long history yada yada, but it was nothing of the kind and didn't last long. Customers reported within a year or two of opening, the shelves were pretty empty and not getting restocked. Reportedly COVID was the coup de grace, but it may have only hastened what was inevitable. It seems the "secret sauce" is with the proprietor in determining the success of any model train hobby shop. It appears from the note on the modeltrainstuff site they plan to return. But based on my observatoins over past decades, I'm not holding my breath. Modeltrainstuff will have to re-earn the good will of their past customers. I know I would tread with caution if/when they reopen. I remember when Caboose opened after Caboose Hobbies closed, I check them out and frankly didn't see any incentive to order from them. They didn't have prices comparable for one thing. In the end, I am glad I didn't order from Caboose because I read reports of orders not getting fulfilled. ISE, the makers of ProtoThrottle wrote an essay on how they had sent product to Caboose and never received payment as well as one of the owners of ISE never got several engines he paid for, nor got a refund.
Yes, the "secret sauce" is knowledge, good customer service, and enough capital. You can't sell what you don't have, contrary to crazy ideas about pre-orders and drop shipping.
To sell at the best prices and make a profit, you need to buy at the best prices. That requires volume, and that requires cash.
Try to run a model train store on borrowed money and you will go broke. I suspect that is one of the issues with these people who takeover these established shops.
You need low overhead and zero debt service.
And it helps if you do not need to earn a living doing this.....