FWIW, received an email from Walther's today that they will convert MTS points into their reward points if anyone hasn't spent theirs yet.
NittanyLion That's in no way contradictory. Look at the chaos in sports television with the collapse of Diamond Sports Group. Bally Sports San Diego and Bally Sports Kansas City were operated as seperate entities, but they're the same company.
That's in no way contradictory. Look at the chaos in sports television with the collapse of Diamond Sports Group. Bally Sports San Diego and Bally Sports Kansas City were operated as seperate entities, but they're the same company.
Rich
Alton Junction
IC_TomSo, if they are separate, then why is there a "status of the company" (singular) for both?
Precisely because they are separate.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
kasskaboose Thanks for finding out. Anything more to the thread? It's past due for closure. Sad seeing this happen, but finding another vendor makese sense. It happens.
Thanks for finding out. Anything more to the thread? It's past due for closure.
Sad seeing this happen, but finding another vendor makese sense. It happens.
And yet, the MR story itself is contradictory:
"Hattons does own M.B. Klein; However, the two companies are operated as separate entities.”
"Since the announcement of Hattons closure, the status of Model Train Stuff’s website changed to reflect the current status of the company."
So, if they are separate, then why is there a "status of the company" (singular) for both?
IC_Tom Hattons CEO interview with Jennifer Kirk said that things changed for Hattons starting in Sept. 23. That's supposed to be when they purchased MTS. Seems the scenario where they bit off more than they could chew is becoming more likely if MTS is freezing up, too. One thing confuses me, though. I read elsewhere that Hattons had purchased MRC. Then I read that Heartland Hobby purchased MRC. At one point, I remember seeing a sale page on MTS that focused exclusively on MRC products. Either someone is mixed up or Hattons and Heartland have/had a relationship.
Hattons CEO interview with Jennifer Kirk said that things changed for Hattons starting in Sept. 23. That's supposed to be when they purchased MTS. Seems the scenario where they bit off more than they could chew is becoming more likely if MTS is freezing up, too.
One thing confuses me, though. I read elsewhere that Hattons had purchased MRC. Then I read that Heartland Hobby purchased MRC. At one point, I remember seeing a sale page on MTS that focused exclusively on MRC products. Either someone is mixed up or Hattons and Heartland have/had a relationship.
To clarify Hattons/ Klein's has no interest or ownership in MRC. However Heartland Hobby Wholesalers is the outfit that is doing 3rd party drop ships for Kleins/ Model Train Stuff. Their address matches the shipping address for what people had been ordering from MTS. Heartland Hobby is a division of another company that owns an Audio wholesaler and also owns MRC. When MTS announced the Nebraska thing they mentioned 3rd party fulfillment so it appears that Heartland is simply filling and shipping these orders for them. Who knows what goes from here but right now that seems to be the relationship with no ownership stake just a dropshipping relationship.
Jim
drgwcsGoing off the addresses of shipped packages those orders from Nebraska are coming from Heartland Hobby Wholesale as a drop ship (as Kleins said third party shipper) rather than from Kleins itself. This explains the missing lines like Athearn (Horizon only) Walthers (only from them) and others. Heartland is also not a Digitrax distributor. You can not really operate like that without those major lines as a retailer. Guess that reinforces the idea that Hattons has no idea of the North American market. I could see them selling the website to Heartland- for a wholesaler that might make sense as it would broaden their market- just adding sales (and at a higher margin.) However to a regular retailer it would be taking away sales as you are missing major segments of the hobby.
Hattons had the same issue though in the UK market, they managed to get into issues with Bachmann UK and Hornby on several instances, and the entire Bachmann UK line was unavailable at their store due to that (I would take a stab that Bachmann Europe probably represents about anywhere from 30%-45% of the OO scale market, it is almost a bigger product line in the UK than it is in America). But with that said, Hattons seemed to be doing fine, focusing instead on selling stuff like Rapido UK or PECO products; and people still bought from them due to their reputation for overseas shipping. They did have a few used Bachmann pieces popping up in their store from time to time, but never direct from the manufacturer. I mentioned it before, and other people have said it already; but this seems to be an effort to cut overhead costs by drop shipping. And if it means losing access to Horizon Hobby's products like Athearn, going off Hatton's past buisness in the UK they might not view it as an issue to not have a comprehensive stock of every product available in the US, as long as they can sell a stock of "enough" to keep customers coming back to the drop ship website. Especially now that they have cut out both MB Klein's warehouse in the US and Hatton's warehouse in the UK and are using a third party to handle the physical warehousing and shipping.
So Model Railroader has confirmed Hattons did purchase MB Klein:
https://www.trains.com/mrr/news-reviews/news/future-of-model-train-stuff-remains-uncertain-amid-hattons-closure/
hbgatsf So here is another computer glitch. When I saw the post about the announcement I went to the MTS website and pulled up one of my wishlists. There were actually a few items available so I put one in my cart. I then went to checkout and went all the way through but backed off just before placing the order. I don't know what would have happened if I tried to complete it. That isn't the end of the story. A couple of hours later I got an email from them reminding me that I had left something in the cart, and they gave a link to it. I guess not everyone got the message.
So here is another computer glitch.
When I saw the post about the announcement I went to the MTS website and pulled up one of my wishlists. There were actually a few items available so I put one in my cart. I then went to checkout and went all the way through but backed off just before placing the order. I don't know what would have happened if I tried to complete it.
That isn't the end of the story. A couple of hours later I got an email from them reminding me that I had left something in the cart, and they gave a link to it.
I guess not everyone got the message.
That message appears to be part of the automation that has been in place for many months. I'd get them too back before Hatton's purchased MBK.
Just another example of how these are small operations most likely without full time IT people, and likely only one or two inhouse people with some knowledge/access in that area.
Changes most likely have to wait for the "guy", be he inhouse or a sub contractor.
It all seems easy if that is your "skill/business" but to many people it is not.
I did some pretty intense "tech" stuff with programable controllers way back in the 80's. Then my career and life went in a different direction.
I happily pay a very good IT guy when my needs exceed my skills.
And people pay me well for my knowledge and skills, I design and build houses, restore historic houses, etc.
What I don't do is sit in front of a computer all day. I was so happy when my career path got me "out of the office", which is where it was headed at first.
Sheldon
Rick
Read an article in The Guardian today that said Hattons was closing and that 2023 was their last train show. the article was about how business was declining in the UK as model railroading is declining there. It was a brief interview with the owners of Hatton. Just for whatever its worth. I stumbled upon it by accident in the news feed.
edit: there is a statement about it on the Hattons webpage. Goes into detail about it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Tin Can II MTS accepted an order last Friday from me; I placed it primarily to use a gift certificate I had been given in October. Everything worked; what I ordered showed to be in stock. Now let's see if the order is fulfilled. I think Hattons may have miscalculated the US market, a bit. Any discount seller relies on volume to make cash flow to sustain the business. It appears there was a big lull in sales volume between the MTS moving clearance sale, and the re-opening in Nebraska. It appears that Nebraska sales were hampered by a lack of access to the same product lines that MTS had before the corporate sale. I had already shifted most of my online business to Midwest Model Trains. Good prices, and I can get most products within 2 days. I don't know anything about this outfit in Nebraska, but I know one thing for sure. Before all this "change" started, everything you bought from MTS was sitting in their warehouse in Cockeysville MD. "Access to the same product lines"? That is a another statement that makes it sound like the model train business is as big as Amazon - dream on. Today, MOST product in this hobby goes from the factory in China to the designer, "manufacturer", marketer (Walthers, Atlas, Bachmann, BLI, etc, etc) and from there most of it goes DIRECTLY to places like Trainworld, MTS, ToyTrainHeaven, and to bigger brick and mortar stores (higher volume ones who generally also have a web presence or established mail order clientele). Very little goes to "middle men" distributurers any more. Specifically, MTS has been buying direct from all the major manufacturers since the 1960's - long before the internet...... I think you are right about one thing, Hattons does not have a clue about the North American market. Are there exceptions to all of this, sure. Bowser and Walthers sell their own product and also sell the other brands. Athearn is only sold from one warehouse to dealers and consumers, they do not sell to any of the remaining "distributors". A number of other small brands also have no extra discount for distributors and only sell directly or retailers or to the consumer. Sheldon
Tin Can II MTS accepted an order last Friday from me; I placed it primarily to use a gift certificate I had been given in October. Everything worked; what I ordered showed to be in stock. Now let's see if the order is fulfilled. I think Hattons may have miscalculated the US market, a bit. Any discount seller relies on volume to make cash flow to sustain the business. It appears there was a big lull in sales volume between the MTS moving clearance sale, and the re-opening in Nebraska. It appears that Nebraska sales were hampered by a lack of access to the same product lines that MTS had before the corporate sale. I had already shifted most of my online business to Midwest Model Trains. Good prices, and I can get most products within 2 days.
MTS accepted an order last Friday from me; I placed it primarily to use a gift certificate I had been given in October. Everything worked; what I ordered showed to be in stock. Now let's see if the order is fulfilled.
I think Hattons may have miscalculated the US market, a bit. Any discount seller relies on volume to make cash flow to sustain the business. It appears there was a big lull in sales volume between the MTS moving clearance sale, and the re-opening in Nebraska. It appears that Nebraska sales were hampered by a lack of access to the same product lines that MTS had before the corporate sale.
I had already shifted most of my online business to Midwest Model Trains. Good prices, and I can get most products within 2 days.
I don't know anything about this outfit in Nebraska, but I know one thing for sure. Before all this "change" started, everything you bought from MTS was sitting in their warehouse in Cockeysville MD.
"Access to the same product lines"? That is a another statement that makes it sound like the model train business is as big as Amazon - dream on.
Today, MOST product in this hobby goes from the factory in China to the designer, "manufacturer", marketer (Walthers, Atlas, Bachmann, BLI, etc, etc) and from there most of it goes DIRECTLY to places like Trainworld, MTS, ToyTrainHeaven, and to bigger brick and mortar stores (higher volume ones who generally also have a web presence or established mail order clientele).
Very little goes to "middle men" distributurers any more.
Specifically, MTS has been buying direct from all the major manufacturers since the 1960's - long before the internet......
I think you are right about one thing, Hattons does not have a clue about the North American market.
Are there exceptions to all of this, sure.
Bowser and Walthers sell their own product and also sell the other brands.
Athearn is only sold from one warehouse to dealers and consumers, they do not sell to any of the remaining "distributors".
A number of other small brands also have no extra discount for distributors and only sell directly or retailers or to the consumer.
Going off the addresses of shipped packages those orders from Nebraska are coming from Heartland Hobby Wholesale as a drop ship (as Kleins said third party shipper) rather than from Kleins itself. This explains the missing lines like Athearn (Horizon only) Walthers (only from them) and others. Heartland is also not a Digitrax distributor. You can not really operate like that without those major lines as a retailer. Guess that reinforces the idea that Hattons has no idea of the North American market. I could see them selling the website to Heartland- for a wholesaler that might make sense as it would broaden their market- just adding sales (and at a higher margin.) However to a regular retailer it would be taking away sales as you are missing major segments of the hobby.
Model trains are made in batches, they ALWAYS have been. Back in the day the manufacturers, distributors and dealers did their best to stock up inventory so that it appeared that stuff was in continious production, or nearly so.
Today that does not really happen, for a lot of reasons, but the main cause is two fold - the much larger number of "different items" being made, and the much lower profit margins with all the discounting.
So today, you preorder stuff, they make just a little more than what is preordered, when it makes it here from China, 80% or more is already sold.
"warehouse shelves" are mostly full of stuff that has arrived in the last 12-18 months, not some comprehensive inventory of a whole product line.
And when the extra 20% is sold, you wait for the next production run.
ATLANTIC CENTRALNobody said they were insolvent, but assuming ModelTrainStuff stays in business in one form or another, Hattons buying MTS and closing their UK operations is them effectively moving to the US.
Actually, a couple of posts have talked about Hatton's 'liquidating their assets to cover their debts' or having 'failed in the UK' etc. But it appears that is not the case.
The fact that Model Train Stuff has frozen their website means it's just as likely the 'reorganization' is MTS being sold by Hatton's to someone else. Still no evidence of some plan of Hatton's to buy MB Klein solely to close their successful UK operation and move it to the US.
riogrande5761 FWIW, Kleins now has this announcement: Customer Notice We have stopped accepting orders, pending a company reorganization.Customer service agents are still available to handle order queries. We will provide more information as soon as it is available.
FWIW, Kleins now has this announcement:
Customer Notice
We have stopped accepting orders, pending a company reorganization.Customer service agents are still available to handle order queries.
We will provide more information as soon as it is available.
York1 blabride Has anyone checked to see if Hatton's actually has a physical address in Nebraska and if so what do they do with it? If anyone across the pond should move an outlet here I would think it would be Hannant's, which is a huge player in the scale modeling community. Here is the latest map of Fremont, Nebraska, which is about 20 miles northwest of Omaha:
blabride Has anyone checked to see if Hatton's actually has a physical address in Nebraska and if so what do they do with it? If anyone across the pond should move an outlet here I would think it would be Hannant's, which is a huge player in the scale modeling community.
Here is the latest map of Fremont, Nebraska, which is about 20 miles northwest of Omaha:
Until last December, Fremont was my away from home terminal. We used to stay at the Oak Tree, now Baymont, off US 30 between Walmart and Menard's. They moved us down to Council Bluffs, but we still go to/from Fremont for some trains.
Jeff
I've already moved on and haven't made any purchases from Kleins since early December when had to use up my reward points.
As far as I am concerned, the Hattons/MBK discussion has been nothing now but grist for the mill.
kasskaboose Perhaps time to move on from Klein's to another vendor?
Perhaps time to move on from Klein's to another vendor?
I have not bought anything from them in a decade. That web site is terrible to use. I hate any of those sites where you have scroll thru pages of stuff to find what you want. Trainworld and ToyTrainHeaven are much easier to use, prices and selection similar.
And I live in a place where there are still good brick and mortar stores that are a reasonable drive, not close but reasonable.
wjstix Just a comment that Hatton's in the UK is not insolvent or bankrupt. Their business did have a loss of 96,000 pounds in 2022 (apparently in large part due to Bachmann dropping Hatton's as distributor of their UK "Branchline" OO trains), but had a 750,000 pound profit in 2021, with net assets over 5.5 million. The people who own the company are just choosing to shut it down - seemingly quite suddenly, as the UK model railway magazines have two-page Hatton's ads in them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RgW4qCgYns Also, as has been mentioned (and despite some speculation), there appears to be no connection between Hatton's buying Klein's and Hatton's decision to cease business; or that Hatton's is moving to the US, etc.
Just a comment that Hatton's in the UK is not insolvent or bankrupt. Their business did have a loss of 96,000 pounds in 2022 (apparently in large part due to Bachmann dropping Hatton's as distributor of their UK "Branchline" OO trains), but had a 750,000 pound profit in 2021, with net assets over 5.5 million. The people who own the company are just choosing to shut it down - seemingly quite suddenly, as the UK model railway magazines have two-page Hatton's ads in them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RgW4qCgYns
Also, as has been mentioned (and despite some speculation), there appears to be no connection between Hatton's buying Klein's and Hatton's decision to cease business; or that Hatton's is moving to the US, etc.
Nobody said they were insolvent, but assuming ModelTrainStuff stays in business in one form or another, Hattons buying MTS and closing their UK operations is them effectively moving to the US.
And its looks more and morec,more, that might have been the plan from the beginning.
Doughless NorthBrit Hattons already have a warehouse in Nebraska. Possibly Klein's stuff will be shipped from there. So it seems that Hatton's already had a presence in the USA market before they bought Klein's, and has some understanding of how the USA market already worked. Like you said, they are increasing their market share in the USA. Question: Does Heartland have a website storefront (under a different name) or are they just a wholesaler? Just saying that we might see the disappearance of another website with the purchase of Klein's (I would think there is no bigger storefront than Klein's, so it would survive.)
NorthBrit Hattons already have a warehouse in Nebraska. Possibly Klein's stuff will be shipped from there.
So it seems that Hatton's already had a presence in the USA market before they bought Klein's, and has some understanding of how the USA market already worked.
Like you said, they are increasing their market share in the USA.
Question: Does Heartland have a website storefront (under a different name) or are they just a wholesaler? Just saying that we might see the disappearance of another website with the purchase of Klein's (I would think there is no bigger storefront than Klein's, so it would survive.)
Hatton's doesn't have any ownership in Heartland. Heartland shows it is owned by VSA who also purchased Model Rectifier- (MRC) back in 2019. Heartland never sold direct to the public just wholesale. The parent company VSA also appears to distribute audiovisual equipment as well.
They did note with Kleins that orders world be fulfilled by 3rd parties so that is what is going on. (Similar to what some other companies have done prior with drop shipping- they place the order from a 3rd party seller once you order it) I did see one article that Heartland has not sold to the public just wholesale. Apparently they struck a deal to just have them ship out for them.
NorthBritHattons already have a warehouse in Nebraska. Possibly Klein's stuff will be shipped from there.
- Douglas
Mystery solved- I had someone message me from another group as to where their last shipment came from Model Train Stuff and the address is 1101 Hills Road, Fremont NE 68025. That is the address for one of the warehouses for Heartland Hobby Wholesale. So basically Klein is now just a website that funnels traffic from Heartland Hobby Wholesale. Here is the building- https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4196734,-96.4717564,3a,19.9y,246.88h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOmDVqHQvHKn6P33kVT8uA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu