Regardless of what happened or who's to fault, it's too bad.
York1 John
Klein's (aka Model Train Stuff) claim to fame was availabilty. They always seemed to maintain a decent inventory.
On the downside, there was no discounting, shipping charges were on the higher side, and the wait to receive your order was long.
So, they were replaceable by other online retailers. For that reason, it is hard to mourn their loss.
Rich
Alton Junction
MTS did discount, across all lines, all the time. It was easy to acquire enough points to earn free shipping, which I enjoyed for over ten years. Additionally, they had a live inventory so you knew if you ordered something, it was in their warehouse and available to ship.
Tin Can II MTS did discount, across all lines, all the time. It was easy to acquire enough points to earn free shipping, which I enjoyed for over ten years. Additionally, they had a live inventory so you knew if you ordered something, it was in their warehouse and available to ship.
A post on FB, Kliens has ceased to be. No returns, no nothing
Mike.
My You Tube
richhotrain Klein's (aka Model Train Stuff) claim to fame was availabilty. They always seemed to maintain a decent inventory. On the downside, there was no discounting, shipping charges were on the higher side, and the wait to receive your order was long. So, they were replaceable by other online retailers. For that reason, it is hard to mourn their loss. Rich
Rich, not sure what you mean about no discounting? Everything I ever looked at on their site was below MSRP, by the typical percentages?
I never used their mail order/online services for reasons I have already explained, so I can only go by what others havesaid about shipping times and costs.
But did occasionally look at their site, and the pricing always seemed "typical", not always the lowest, but always noticeably below MSRP.
That said, I agree with your opinion that this is not the end of the world.
Sheldon
Can't say I ever ordered from them, so no loss at my house. Lombard will still get the majority of my orders, with eBay coming a close second.
An "expensive model collector"
Another example of a UK retail company not understanding the US market.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Klein's (aka Model Train Stuff) claim to fame was availabilty. They always seemed to maintain a decent inventory. On the downside, there was no discounting, shipping charges were on the higher side, and the wait to receive your order was long. So, they were replaceable by other online retailers. For that reason, it is hard to mourn their loss. Rich Rich, not sure what you mean about no discounting? Everything I ever looked at on their site was below MSRP, by the typical percentages? I never used their mail order/online services for reasons I have already explained, so I can only go by what others havesaid about shipping times and costs. But did occasionally look at their site, and the pricing always seemed "typical", not always the lowest, but always noticeably below MSRP. That said, I agree with your opinion that this is not the end of the world. Sheldon
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Klein's (aka Model Train Stuff) claim to fame was availabilty. They always seemed to maintain a decent inventory. On the downside, there was no discounting, shipping charges were on the higher side, and the wait to receive your order was long. So, they were replaceable by other online retailers. For that reason, it is hard to mourn their loss. Rich Rich, not sure what you mean about no discounting? Everything I ever looked at on their site was below MSRP, by the typical percentages? I never used their mail order/online services for reasons I have already explained, so I can only go by what others havesaid about shipping times and costs. But did occasionally look at their site, and the pricing always seemed "typical", not always the lowest, but always noticeably below MSRP. That said, I agree with your opinion that this is not the end of the world. Sheldon "Discounting" was a poor choice of words. Yes, MTS priced below MSRP, but so do most other online retailers because manufacturers MSRP almost always seems exhorbitant. My reference to discounting, or a lack thereof, was intended to point out that MTS pricing was "typical" as you point out, nothing special. Rich
"Discounting" was a poor choice of words. Yes, MTS priced below MSRP, but so do most other online retailers because manufacturers MSRP almost always seems exhorbitant. My reference to discounting, or a lack thereof, was intended to point out that MTS pricing was "typical" as you point out, nothing special.
OK, understood and agreed.
Their business model was based on the idea of balancing depth of inventory with competitive pricing.
That became more difficult as time marched on.
There is an irony here that when it was still only a brick and mortar store it was one of the first in the nation to offer discount prices on model trains, way back in the 1960's.
Back then, the owner, Ted Klein, personally rung up every sale, and calulated your 20% discount on a scratch pad. Obviously that changed later on.
I don't search the web for the loweest prices, but Trainworld seems to historically be one ofthe lowest - and long before it was a popular business model with others, Trainworld would have true rock bottom closeout sales. Not sure they do that quite as much as they did years ago.
ToyTrainHeaven also seems to have really good prices.
At least for me, living relatively near both of these, their shipping/customer service is fast.
I have placed orders with trainworld in the morning and had them the next afternoon.
Whenever I happen to look on Ebay, at least for the stuff I want, I don't find that many good prices.
Example - Bachmann re-released their USRA 4-6-2 without DCC at a MSRP of $389. I wanted one to convert into a B&O P-6 loco (mainly just a different tender and trailing truck). On Ebay prices ranged from $260 to full retail, withmost wanting about $270. Star Hobby in Annapolis MD, a brick and mortar store about an hour from me, who specializes in Bachmann, had them for $230.
Yes, Bachmann in particular has somewhat inflated MSRP, or maybe not considering Broadway MSRP these days........
But, the fact remains you can always find Bachmann at 35%-40% off MSRP.
Take care,
ATLANTIC CENTRAL There is an irony here that when it was still only a brick and mortar store it was one of the first in the nation to offer discount prices on model trains, way back in the 1960's. Back then, the owner, Ted Klein, personally rung up every sale, and calulated your 20% discount on a scratch pad. Obviously that changed later on.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Example - Bachmann re-released their USRA 4-6-2 without DCC at a MSRP of $389. I wanted one to convert into a B&O P-6 loco (mainly just a different tender and trailing truck). On Ebay prices ranged from $260 to full retail, withmost wanting about $270. Star Hobby in Annapolis MD, a brick and mortar store about an hour from me, who specializes in Bachmann, had them for $230.
Always been a bottom feeder and Train World was the best when they cleared something out for someone. Kliens was the place to go for Intermountain stuff where you could get the newest at discount before they were gone, got the last one many times there. Do miss hanging out at train shops and train shows, all gone for the most part now. Mall's are going away in a lot of places, been a mall rat from when I was a young adult before they called us that. Now I am mainly a food rat and I just scored my best deal ever on coffie pods, a 22 pack at 3 cents on the $ of Black Rifle.
rrebell Do miss hanging out at train shops
Do miss hanging out at train shops
richhotrain rrebell Do miss hanging out at train shops One thing that always amused me about "train shops" were the number of old guys sitting on the window sill at the front of the shop, shooting the breeze, so to speak. LOL. Rich
One thing that always amused me about "train shops" were the number of old guys sitting on the window sill at the front of the shop, shooting the breeze, so to speak. LOL.
And it is not just model train guys. In the shops I worked in model airplane guys would do the same thing.
Those shops you had in your area, part of the reason they are gone, you cannot make a living in this business selling at 20% off unless you are buying most of what you sell direct from the manufacturers at "distributor" prices.
Wholesale and distributor pricing has changed some, but contrary to what some think, there is not a big margin in this stuff in any case.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain rrebell Do miss hanging out at train shops One thing that always amused me about "train shops" were the number of old guys sitting on the window sill at the front of the shop, shooting the breeze, so to speak. LOL. Rich And it is not just model train guys. In the shops I worked in model airplane guys would do the same thing. Those shops you had in your area, part of the reason they are gone, you cannot make a living in this business selling at 20% off unless you are buying most of what you sell direct from the manufacturers at "distributor" prices. Wholesale and distributor pricing has changed some, but contrary to what some think, there is not a big margin in this stuff in any case. Sheldon
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain rrebell Do miss hanging out at train shops One thing that always amused me about "train shops" were the number of old guys sitting on the window sill at the front of the shop, shooting the breeze, so to speak. LOL. Rich And it is not just model train guys. In the shops I worked in model airplane guys would do the same thing. Those shops you had in your area, part of the reason they are gone, you cannot make a living in this business selling at 20% off unless you are buying most of what you sell direct from the manufacturers at "distributor" prices. Wholesale and distributor pricing has changed some, but contrary to what some think, there is not a big margin in this stuff in any case. Sheldon Accually the reason all the hobby shops left was the price of real estate, even if you owned the building the land value is massive. Monthly rent in the downtown area where I lived before moving accross the bay is $6 a square foot now, used to be more. Reason Woolworths went out of buisness is they owned none of their spaces and were on 40 year leases, once the leases were up they were gone.
Accually the reason all the hobby shops left was the price of real estate, even if you owned the building the land value is massive. Monthly rent in the downtown area where I lived before moving accross the bay is $6 a square foot now, used to be more. Reason Woolworths went out of buisness is they owned none of their spaces and were on 40 year leases, once the leases were up they were gone.
No doubt real estate costs are a factor, and that is a reason why many of the remaining shops in this region are in small towns or out in the middle of nowhere, or, have owned their buildings forever.
Just another reason why the value based property tax is a flawed system, but that is a topic for a different forum.
The point remains, you CANNOT run a business of this type on a 20% gross margin - you will loose money.
You NEED to buy your product at a price that allows you to sell most of it at a 40% gross margin, so your real gross margin is 35% or more.
So you can't buy stuff from conventional distributors at 40% off MSRP and sell stuff at 20% off MSRP.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Those shops you had in your area, part of the reason they are gone, you cannot make a living in this business selling at 20% off unless you are buying most of what you sell direct from the manufacturers at "distributor" prices.
rrebell Accually the reason all the hobby shops left was the price of real estate, even if you owned the building the land value is massive.
Accually the reason all the hobby shops left was the price of real estate, even if you owned the building the land value is massive.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL No doubt real estate costs are a factor, and that is a reason why many of the remaining shops in this region are in small towns or out in the middle of nowhere, or, have owned their buildings forever. Just another reason why the value based property tax is a flawed system, but that is a topic for a different forum. The point remains, you CANNOT run a business of this type on a 20% gross margin - you will loose money. You NEED to buy your product at a price that allows you to sell most of it at a 40% gross margin, so your real gross margin is 35% or more. So you can't buy stuff from conventional distributors at 40% off MSRP and sell stuff at 20% off MSRP.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL No doubt real estate costs are a factor, and that is a reason why many of the remaining shops in this region are in small towns or out in the middle of nowhere, or, have owned their buildings forever. Just another reason why the value based property tax is a flawed system, but that is a topic for a different forum. The point remains, you CANNOT run a business of this type on a 20% gross margin - you will loose money. You NEED to buy your product at a price that allows you to sell most of it at a 40% gross margin, so your real gross margin is 35% or more. So you can't buy stuff from conventional distributors at 40% off MSRP and sell stuff at 20% off MSRP. As the Internet became the go-to place for model railroading supply, I used to encourage my guys to establish an Internet presence to move some of the inventory. But all three LHS were intimidated at the thought of it. Often, I would be the only shopper on the store. Not good. Rich
As the Internet became the go-to place for model railroading supply, I used to encourage my guys to establish an Internet presence to move some of the inventory. But all three LHS were intimidated at the thought of it. Often, I would be the only shopper on the store. Not good.
For the post part, the manufacturers will sell at the nearly lowest price to anyone with a retail business licence, but they require a minimum volume and generally require ordering in case lots which are typically 12 units, sometimes 24 for small items and often only 6 for things like locomotives. This has changed some in these days of preorders.
So the shops that can move that much product, by internet or otherwise, can buy direct and then can sell at 20% or more below MSRP.
The shop in Annapolis that has good prices on Bachmann, does some mail order business, by phone, their web page does not have a cart. Mainly they have the store and they go to all the train shows here on the east coast.
Mainline Hobby Supply has a good sized store, and a web site, but not everything is on the website - just call them up.
Many others are like that as well.
Back in the old days at Kleins, I know first hand that Ted Klein bought most of his product direct - but not everything. All the regional distributors still called on him and he used them to keep his inventory full and complete. He happly paid more for a small percentage of his product to not miss sales and to foster that reputation of "having everything".
Other big shops back in those days worked the same way - depth of inventory was everything - you can't sell what you don't have and you can't read the minds of all the customers.
I miss those days, While I understand the impossible task of keeping large percentages of all the stuff produced today in stock, I still feel the "disconnected" selection of product on the shelves at any minute today does not help the hobby.
In 1968 a person could walk into a store like Kleins and walk out with a set of locomotives and a matching passenger train - generic as it might have been. Try that today?
richhotrain rrebell Accually the reason all the hobby shops left was the price of real estate, even if you owned the building the land value is massive. The monthly rent did in all three of my LHS, and in short order. All three were there one day and gone the next, or so it seemed. All three closed in the same year. Rich
The monthly rent did in all three of my LHS, and in short order. All three were there one day and gone the next, or so it seemed. All three closed in the same year.
Again, the rent did them in because 20% is not enough margin to run a retail store - even Walmart works on a higher total gorass margin than that - about 30%.
Sheldon.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL Those shops you had in your area, part of the reason they are gone, you cannot make a living in this business selling at 20% off unless you are buying most of what you sell direct from the manufacturers at "distributor" prices. Back in the day, when Walthers had a lock on everything and everyone, my favorite LHS bought everything from Walthers. Rich
Back in the day, when Walthers had a lock on everything and everyone, my favorite LHS bought everything from Walthers.
? Walthers did not have a lock on everyone? Yes they bought up a lot of small companies and controlled those products.
So buying only from them was a big mistake because Walthers has never been the best place for a dealer to buy non Walthers merchandise. Other regional distributors have always had deeper inventory, better pricing, better terms and faster delivery than Walthers.
When I managed a train department we mainly used Walthers for their own products and some "fill in" stuff. Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann, Roundhouse, LifeLike, Campbell, and two dozen more brands were better bought from regional distributors near us, who used their own trucks for delivery, offered special terms in the fall for the "big season", and had deeper more complete inventories of those brands.
In my opinion, today, Walthers is only still a "distributor" of other brands because they still manage to be a "retail mail order" source for some customers, so they want to offer products from other brands.
There are several reasons why Athearn quickly went to self distribution when Horizon took over - Walthers was one of those reasons. Athearn had been the single largest rolling stock line for decades, but in the late 70's Walthers bought TrainsMinature and rapidly expanded their presence in the plastic freight car kit business.
From that moment on, Walthers gave Athearn a position of "second fiddle" in their catalog - which then was an important tool for all brands to market their products.
Walthers has always been best at being a manufacturer, with being a distributor or retailer of other brands taking second chair.
Horizon also went to self distribution simply because they could, they already had the infrastructure in place. And it allowed them to "clean house" get rid of less than ligit "basement dealers", stablize pricing and provide better service to ligit businesses.
Today, Athearn is still one of the big players dispite all the naysayers when Horizon took over.
I was last at mb Klein's about 6 maybe 5 years ago. The retail side of the shop considerably downsized. And while I try not to speak I'll of people, the owner was quite cranky like his heart wasn't in it any more. We didn't feel like welcome customers. But he was older so he might have just decided it was time to retire
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
DigitalGriffin I was last at mb Klein's about 6 maybe 5 years ago. The retail side of the shop considerably downsized. And while I try not to speak I'll of people, the owner was quite cranky like his heart wasn't in it any more. We didn't feel like welcome customers. But he was older so he might have just decided it was time to retire
Whoever you delt with was not the owner. Ted Klein retired from day to day operations before they even moved to Cockeysville.
And Ted passed away in 2020.
Yes, these recent changes reflect a desire of the family to sell the business.
A new post on the website says they're not taking orders while they're reorganizing. Sounds like one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.
Uncle_Bob A new post on the website says they're not taking orders while they're reorganizing. Sounds like one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.
Refresh your browser and try again:
https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Uncle_Bob A new post on the website says they're not taking orders while they're reorganizing. Sounds like one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. Refresh your browser and try again: https://www.modeltrainstuff.com/ Sheldon