rrebell Accually the reason all the hobby shops left was the price of real estate, even if you owned the building the land value is massive.
Accually the reason all the hobby shops left was the price of real estate, even if you owned the building the land value is massive.
Rich
Alton Junction
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Those shops you had in your area, part of the reason they are gone, you cannot make a living in this business selling at 20% off unless you are buying most of what you sell direct from the manufacturers at "distributor" prices.
Those shops you had in your area, part of the reason they are gone, you cannot make a living in this business selling at 20% off unless you are buying most of what you sell direct from the manufacturers at "distributor" prices.
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain rrebell Do miss hanging out at train shops One thing that always amused me about "train shops" were the number of old guys sitting on the window sill at the front of the shop, shooting the breeze, so to speak. LOL. Rich And it is not just model train guys. In the shops I worked in model airplane guys would do the same thing. Those shops you had in your area, part of the reason they are gone, you cannot make a living in this business selling at 20% off unless you are buying most of what you sell direct from the manufacturers at "distributor" prices. Wholesale and distributor pricing has changed some, but contrary to what some think, there is not a big margin in this stuff in any case. Sheldon Accually the reason all the hobby shops left was the price of real estate, even if you owned the building the land value is massive. Monthly rent in the downtown area where I lived before moving accross the bay is $6 a square foot now, used to be more. Reason Woolworths went out of buisness is they owned none of their spaces and were on 40 year leases, once the leases were up they were gone.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain rrebell Do miss hanging out at train shops One thing that always amused me about "train shops" were the number of old guys sitting on the window sill at the front of the shop, shooting the breeze, so to speak. LOL. Rich And it is not just model train guys. In the shops I worked in model airplane guys would do the same thing. Those shops you had in your area, part of the reason they are gone, you cannot make a living in this business selling at 20% off unless you are buying most of what you sell direct from the manufacturers at "distributor" prices. Wholesale and distributor pricing has changed some, but contrary to what some think, there is not a big margin in this stuff in any case. Sheldon
richhotrain rrebell Do miss hanging out at train shops One thing that always amused me about "train shops" were the number of old guys sitting on the window sill at the front of the shop, shooting the breeze, so to speak. LOL. Rich
rrebell Do miss hanging out at train shops
Do miss hanging out at train shops
One thing that always amused me about "train shops" were the number of old guys sitting on the window sill at the front of the shop, shooting the breeze, so to speak. LOL.
And it is not just model train guys. In the shops I worked in model airplane guys would do the same thing.
Wholesale and distributor pricing has changed some, but contrary to what some think, there is not a big margin in this stuff in any case.
Sheldon
Accually the reason all the hobby shops left was the price of real estate, even if you owned the building the land value is massive. Monthly rent in the downtown area where I lived before moving accross the bay is $6 a square foot now, used to be more. Reason Woolworths went out of buisness is they owned none of their spaces and were on 40 year leases, once the leases were up they were gone.
No doubt real estate costs are a factor, and that is a reason why many of the remaining shops in this region are in small towns or out in the middle of nowhere, or, have owned their buildings forever.
Just another reason why the value based property tax is a flawed system, but that is a topic for a different forum.
The point remains, you CANNOT run a business of this type on a 20% gross margin - you will loose money.
You NEED to buy your product at a price that allows you to sell most of it at a 40% gross margin, so your real gross margin is 35% or more.
So you can't buy stuff from conventional distributors at 40% off MSRP and sell stuff at 20% off MSRP.
Always been a bottom feeder and Train World was the best when they cleared something out for someone. Kliens was the place to go for Intermountain stuff where you could get the newest at discount before they were gone, got the last one many times there. Do miss hanging out at train shops and train shows, all gone for the most part now. Mall's are going away in a lot of places, been a mall rat from when I was a young adult before they called us that. Now I am mainly a food rat and I just scored my best deal ever on coffie pods, a 22 pack at 3 cents on the $ of Black Rifle.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Example - Bachmann re-released their USRA 4-6-2 without DCC at a MSRP of $389. I wanted one to convert into a B&O P-6 loco (mainly just a different tender and trailing truck). On Ebay prices ranged from $260 to full retail, withmost wanting about $270. Star Hobby in Annapolis MD, a brick and mortar store about an hour from me, who specializes in Bachmann, had them for $230.
Example - Bachmann re-released their USRA 4-6-2 without DCC at a MSRP of $389. I wanted one to convert into a B&O P-6 loco (mainly just a different tender and trailing truck). On Ebay prices ranged from $260 to full retail, withmost wanting about $270. Star Hobby in Annapolis MD, a brick and mortar store about an hour from me, who specializes in Bachmann, had them for $230.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL There is an irony here that when it was still only a brick and mortar store it was one of the first in the nation to offer discount prices on model trains, way back in the 1960's. Back then, the owner, Ted Klein, personally rung up every sale, and calulated your 20% discount on a scratch pad. Obviously that changed later on.
There is an irony here that when it was still only a brick and mortar store it was one of the first in the nation to offer discount prices on model trains, way back in the 1960's.
Back then, the owner, Ted Klein, personally rung up every sale, and calulated your 20% discount on a scratch pad. Obviously that changed later on.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Klein's (aka Model Train Stuff) claim to fame was availabilty. They always seemed to maintain a decent inventory. On the downside, there was no discounting, shipping charges were on the higher side, and the wait to receive your order was long. So, they were replaceable by other online retailers. For that reason, it is hard to mourn their loss. Rich Rich, not sure what you mean about no discounting? Everything I ever looked at on their site was below MSRP, by the typical percentages? I never used their mail order/online services for reasons I have already explained, so I can only go by what others havesaid about shipping times and costs. But did occasionally look at their site, and the pricing always seemed "typical", not always the lowest, but always noticeably below MSRP. That said, I agree with your opinion that this is not the end of the world. Sheldon "Discounting" was a poor choice of words. Yes, MTS priced below MSRP, but so do most other online retailers because manufacturers MSRP almost always seems exhorbitant. My reference to discounting, or a lack thereof, was intended to point out that MTS pricing was "typical" as you point out, nothing special. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Klein's (aka Model Train Stuff) claim to fame was availabilty. They always seemed to maintain a decent inventory. On the downside, there was no discounting, shipping charges were on the higher side, and the wait to receive your order was long. So, they were replaceable by other online retailers. For that reason, it is hard to mourn their loss. Rich Rich, not sure what you mean about no discounting? Everything I ever looked at on their site was below MSRP, by the typical percentages? I never used their mail order/online services for reasons I have already explained, so I can only go by what others havesaid about shipping times and costs. But did occasionally look at their site, and the pricing always seemed "typical", not always the lowest, but always noticeably below MSRP. That said, I agree with your opinion that this is not the end of the world. Sheldon
richhotrain Klein's (aka Model Train Stuff) claim to fame was availabilty. They always seemed to maintain a decent inventory. On the downside, there was no discounting, shipping charges were on the higher side, and the wait to receive your order was long. So, they were replaceable by other online retailers. For that reason, it is hard to mourn their loss. Rich
Klein's (aka Model Train Stuff) claim to fame was availabilty. They always seemed to maintain a decent inventory.
On the downside, there was no discounting, shipping charges were on the higher side, and the wait to receive your order was long.
So, they were replaceable by other online retailers. For that reason, it is hard to mourn their loss.
Rich, not sure what you mean about no discounting? Everything I ever looked at on their site was below MSRP, by the typical percentages?
I never used their mail order/online services for reasons I have already explained, so I can only go by what others havesaid about shipping times and costs.
But did occasionally look at their site, and the pricing always seemed "typical", not always the lowest, but always noticeably below MSRP.
That said, I agree with your opinion that this is not the end of the world.
"Discounting" was a poor choice of words. Yes, MTS priced below MSRP, but so do most other online retailers because manufacturers MSRP almost always seems exhorbitant. My reference to discounting, or a lack thereof, was intended to point out that MTS pricing was "typical" as you point out, nothing special.
OK, understood and agreed.
Their business model was based on the idea of balancing depth of inventory with competitive pricing.
That became more difficult as time marched on.
I don't search the web for the loweest prices, but Trainworld seems to historically be one ofthe lowest - and long before it was a popular business model with others, Trainworld would have true rock bottom closeout sales. Not sure they do that quite as much as they did years ago.
ToyTrainHeaven also seems to have really good prices.
At least for me, living relatively near both of these, their shipping/customer service is fast.
I have placed orders with trainworld in the morning and had them the next afternoon.
Whenever I happen to look on Ebay, at least for the stuff I want, I don't find that many good prices.
Yes, Bachmann in particular has somewhat inflated MSRP, or maybe not considering Broadway MSRP these days........
But, the fact remains you can always find Bachmann at 35%-40% off MSRP.
Take care,
Another example of a UK retail company not understanding the US market.
Can't say I ever ordered from them, so no loss at my house. Lombard will still get the majority of my orders, with eBay coming a close second.
An "expensive model collector"
A post on FB, Kliens has ceased to be. No returns, no nothing
Mike.
My You Tube
Tin Can II MTS did discount, across all lines, all the time. It was easy to acquire enough points to earn free shipping, which I enjoyed for over ten years. Additionally, they had a live inventory so you knew if you ordered something, it was in their warehouse and available to ship.
MTS did discount, across all lines, all the time. It was easy to acquire enough points to earn free shipping, which I enjoyed for over ten years. Additionally, they had a live inventory so you knew if you ordered something, it was in their warehouse and available to ship.
Regardless of what happened or who's to fault, it's too bad.
York1 John
Lots of grist for the forum mill. It's adios MB Kline/MTS
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
rrebell This all was just another leveraged buyout that went bad, like Toys Are Us or Sears. It just went bad really fast and we don't know when Haltons bought or what their terms were, there have been a lot of companies that got caught in the intrest rate squeese and there are a bunch of companys that are still going to go away out there that are not train related, the bankruptcies have just started.
This all was just another leveraged buyout that went bad, like Toys Are Us or Sears. It just went bad really fast and we don't know when Haltons bought or what their terms were, there have been a lot of companies that got caught in the intrest rate squeese and there are a bunch of companys that are still going to go away out there that are not train related, the bankruptcies have just started.
MJ4562 More likely than any of that would be Hattons had a LOI to buy MTS/Kleins and then backed out after doing due diligence on the operation. pure speculation but it makes sense unlike the business tanking within 3 months.
More likely than any of that would be Hattons had a LOI to buy MTS/Kleins and then backed out after doing due diligence on the operation.
pure speculation but it makes sense unlike the business tanking within 3 months.
Anything is possible, but about 6 months ago I spoke with a long time aquaintance who was a train show dealer for several decades. He indicated that he was now working for Kleins in a management position and seemed extreemly positive about things there.
Ever since Ted Klein passed away there have been rumors here in the Baltimore area that the family was considering selling the business.
Train show coming up next week, if I make it there I will see lots of people I know in this business. It will be interesting to hear what people in the business have to say.
While fun to speculate about what did/did not happen to the place, it's sad to see this vendor go 86. Similar to others, I had fun visiting their B'more store and still used them when they left. Having seen this before it doesn't make the moving on process ANY easier, but no point dwelling on the past.
Found a great and relevant quote from the late, great coach John Wooden: "Dwelling in the past prevents doing something in the present."
Time to find another reputable vendor.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Uncle_Bob They were able to get orders out very fast last summer, into early fall. Starting Sept. or so, orders that used to take 3 days to get here in New York often too 7-10 days to ship, plus transit time -- and all was still coming out of suburban Baltimore at that time. My last order came in 3 separate shipments, including a Mikado I hadn't ordered. It's a damn shame. At least we still have a few other vendors (Toy Train Heaven, Lombard Hobby, Trainworld). Thanks Bob, confirmed my point. Before all this there was no "drop shipping" by MTS. Everything you bought was here in Maryland at their only warehouse. Sheldon
Uncle_Bob They were able to get orders out very fast last summer, into early fall. Starting Sept. or so, orders that used to take 3 days to get here in New York often too 7-10 days to ship, plus transit time -- and all was still coming out of suburban Baltimore at that time. My last order came in 3 separate shipments, including a Mikado I hadn't ordered. It's a damn shame. At least we still have a few other vendors (Toy Train Heaven, Lombard Hobby, Trainworld).
They were able to get orders out very fast last summer, into early fall. Starting Sept. or so, orders that used to take 3 days to get here in New York often too 7-10 days to ship, plus transit time -- and all was still coming out of suburban Baltimore at that time. My last order came in 3 separate shipments, including a Mikado I hadn't ordered. It's a damn shame. At least we still have a few other vendors (Toy Train Heaven, Lombard Hobby, Trainworld).
Thanks Bob, confirmed my point. Before all this there was no "drop shipping" by MTS. Everything you bought was here in Maryland at their only warehouse.
Something definitely seemed off the last few months they existed. For example, they got something like 30 Bowser Lehigh Valley RS-3's in one day. They still had 28 about 4:45 PM. When I went back at 5:30, they were all gone. Similar things happened with BLI engines: massive quantities of merchandise appeared, then vanished a few hours later, and sometimes reappeared weeks later. Maybe everything was on the up and up, but such huge swings in merchandise levels made me wonder exactly what was going on with their inventory.
Plus you could still get curbside pickup well after they'd stopped opening the front door and letting you walk around the place.