ATLANTIC CENTRAL There is another scenario no one is considering. Hattons purchased ModelTrainStuff and is moving that operation to whatever location they already had in the US. Hattons is now going to close the UK operation and focus on the North American operation under the MTS name. That might be way smarter than trying to establish the Hattons name in the US. Sheldon
There is another scenario no one is considering.
Hattons purchased ModelTrainStuff and is moving that operation to whatever location they already had in the US.
Hattons is now going to close the UK operation and focus on the North American operation under the MTS name.
That might be way smarter than trying to establish the Hattons name in the US.
Sheldon
That's the way I read it all along. I assume that the British company formed a USA company to buy Kleins as a separate entity. Because the British company is closing, that doesn't mean the USA company can't still operate as a separate entity. And if Hatton's is actually liquidating in an orderly fashion as to leave no debt, the USA company may be debt free at the end of it (athough they could have pushed down the acquisition debt to the USA company).
As another has said, Klien's prices are back to being as high as ever, and their "moving liquidation" sale appears to be over.
- Douglas
So the sale may have just been about thinning out slow moving items before moving to the new location. Likely somewhere with lower labor and business costs than Maryland.
It is easier to sell from the US than from the UK with its GST, and the problem of shipping to the EU (which is probably the EU's attempt to punish the UK for leaving the EU) The only taxes you pay with inside US orders is the sales tax of the state you are shipping the item to.
Hatton's ads in MR give the web address as www.hattonsmodelmoney.com, no separate US website I could see. Their website has no reference to having a US subsidiary. I could find nothing yet from Klein's about how this affect them. Seems unlikely Hatton's would just abandon the UK and move to the US? I believe the only thing they did in the US was buy and sell used ("pre-owned") stuff, and their website says:
We have suspended offering on and purchasing any Pre-Owned collections effective immediately.
Any collections which are already with us or that are en route will be processed and paid for ASAP.
Pre-Owned stock will continue to be added to the website for sale each weekday until we run out of items to add.
Pre-Owned credit can continue to be used for in stock items, including those in our closing down sale.
https://www.hattonsmodelmoney.com/index/disbanded
azrail It is easier to sell from the US than from the UK with its GST, and the problem of shipping to the EU (which is probably the EU's attempt to punish the UK for leaving the EU) The only taxes you pay with inside US orders is the sales tax of the state you are shipping the item to.
Exactly. I would take my money and leave the UK for North America as well. And I don't blame the UK for the economic condtions over there, all of Europe shares the blame.
Sales Tax is one of the major reasons I think MB Klein started the rewards program. Evidently Maryland has become pretty strict about mail order business's in the state collecting sales tax on out of state purchases. What Maryland does with it who knows. This is the main reason I quit ordering from them without a reward since they started collecting Taxes from me down here in Texas.
Not sure if Nebraska is the same. I have not purchased online from Spring Creek yet to see. I have bought from them at local trains shows here which they do collect tax. The other two mail order sites I buy from still do not charge me taxes.
Has anyone checked to see if Hatton's actually has a physical address in Nebraska and if so what do they do with it? If anyone across the pond should move an outlet here I would think it would be Hannant's, which is a huge player in the scale modeling community.
SB
Whether an online vendor charges me sales tax or not, I have to keep track of all my online purchases here in OH on my yearly state income tax return because of "OH Use Tax" . Most vendors I deal with automatically add the sales tax to the purchase. However, there are still a few that don't.
I'm guessing most states now require vendors to collect sales tax on purchases and residents who receive those said purchases. My understanding is that the "purchase from" state and the "shipped to" state split the tax...but I could be mistaken.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Let's just remember there is absolutely no evidence that Hatton's is closing in the UK to move to the US. Hatton's bought Klein, and now out of the blue Hatton's is going out of business. I would assume if they bought Klein with the idea of using that as entry to move here they would say so.
It appears they are financially sound, although incurring losses in the last year. Sounds like Brexit may be an issue, since about 20% of their sales are to non-UK countries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RgW4qCgYns
blabrideHas anyone checked to see if Hatton's actually has a physical address in Nebraska and if so what do they do with it? If anyone across the pond should move an outlet here I would think it would be Hannant's, which is a huge player in the scale modeling community.
Here is the latest map of Fremont, Nebraska, which is about 20 miles northwest of Omaha:
York1 John
wjstix Hatton's ads in MR give the web address as www.hattonsmodelmoney.com, no separate US website I could see. Their website has no reference to having a US subsidiary. I could find nothing yet from Klein's about how this affect them. Seems unlikely Hatton's would just abandon the UK and move to the US? I believe the only thing they did in the US was buy and sell used ("pre-owned") stuff, and their website says: Pre-Owned We have suspended offering on and purchasing any Pre-Owned collections effective immediately. Any collections which are already with us or that are en route will be processed and paid for ASAP. Pre-Owned stock will continue to be added to the website for sale each weekday until we run out of items to add. Pre-Owned credit can continue to be used for in stock items, including those in our closing down sale. https://www.hattonsmodelmoney.com/index/disbanded
I assume that website is for Hatton's which is a UK business.
My MBKlein website, login ID, and email address haven't changed, so I assume whatever is happening with Hattons, if anything, is not impacting Klein's
It seems that Klein's is going strictly online and is moving its warehouse to a cheaper location. That's really the news here, IMO.
I would think that who owns Klein's now is of little interest to most buyers.
Douglas
That information is on Hattons U.K. site.
Basically purchases can be made on second hand items. They have no new stock from manufacturing companies (as I understand it).
They say any preorders on their own generic stock due in May 2024, they will be on sale then to those people who preordered.
That appears to me some staff will remain at their Widnes, U.K. building until May (at least).
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
Doughless I would think that who owns Klein's now is of little interest to most buyers.
Rich
Alton Junction
Sales tax collection changed after a 2018 Supreme Court decision that said that if a company sells things remotely (mail order, internet) to people located in other states, they can be required to collect the other state's sales tax. Before that, they only had to collect sales tax in states where they had a physical presence.
I believe most states with sales tax began requiring out-of-state remote vendors to collect sales tax for their state soon after that. Each state has their own criteria on how much a vendor has to sell in the state before they have to collect sales tax. The vendor would have to keep track of how much sales tax they collected from each state, and send what they collected to each state.
Use tax generally means you've bought something in/from another state that either didn't charge any sales tax, or just charged sales tax for their state. So if my state charges 5% sales tax and I buy something with no sales tax, I'd pay my state use tax of 5%. If I bought something in another state that charged me 4% sales tax, I may have to pay the 1% difference to my state. Of course, each state is different on how they do it, how much you have to buy or sell before it affects you, etc.
York1 blabride Has anyone checked to see if Hatton's actually has a physical address in Nebraska and if so what do they do with it? If anyone across the pond should move an outlet here I would think it would be Hannant's, which is a huge player in the scale modeling community. Here is the latest map of Fremont, Nebraska, which is about 20 miles northwest of Omaha:
blabride Has anyone checked to see if Hatton's actually has a physical address in Nebraska and if so what do they do with it? If anyone across the pond should move an outlet here I would think it would be Hannant's, which is a huge player in the scale modeling community.
MB Klein or Hattons don't have to move to that location as a buisness. They are likely going to contract out a generalist "Drop shipping" warehouse company, and use that as a third party provider to operate their shipping and stocking; then funnel the profits to wherever they are at. Reduces overhead costs and all that, but increases the risk for the customer since now instead of a specialized model train company handling the product it is a third party warehouse that might also ship underwear, socks, cheap electronics, baby formula, wigs and skateboards all from under the same roof. Minimum risk for the company owner, a small chunk of profit for a warehouse operator, and higher risk for the consumer their goods may be mis-identified or mis-handled by some careless packing company.
NorthBrit Douglas That information is on Hattons U.K. site. Basically purchases can be made on second hand items. They have no new stock from manufacturing companies (as I understand it). They say any preorders on their own generic stock due in May 2024, they will be on sale then to those people who preordered. That appears to me some staff will remain at their Widnes, U.K. building until May (at least). David
Yes, I know that. The discussion about Hatton's in this thread is talking about what is happening to Hatton's business in the UK. While that may be interesting, the topic is about the USA business Klein's.
Other's in this thread seem to think that they can predict what can/is/will happen with Klein's USA based upon what's happening with Hatton's UK. One likely has nothing to do with the other, even if the same family that owns Hattons now owns Kleins.
richhotrain Doughless I would think that who owns Klein's now is of little interest to most buyers. That depends on who is running the operation. Most, if not all, changes of ownership result in a change of business plans, directly affecting inventory, pricing, shipping, etc. As a buyer of MTS in the past, I become immediately wary of any change in ownership. Rich
That depends on who is running the operation. Most, if not all, changes of ownership result in a change of business plans, directly affecting inventory, pricing, shipping, etc. As a buyer of MTS in the past, I become immediately wary of any change in ownership.
I guess so. I don't think its possible to predict what a new owner will do with a business. If the business model in the UK eventually shrank and died, I would not assume that they would then take that same failed business model to the USA.
Based upon what Hatton's has said, their business model has been sinking for a while, so they jumped ship before it completely sank and bought Klein's to continue on selling model trains. I don't think that means they want to turn Klein's into Hatton's. JMO.
What seems to be happening is that the new owner has no emotional ties/ allegiences to the Baltimore area and is simply moving Ops to a more economically advantageous area...which is probably a positive business decision. OTOH family owners tend to have alligiences to their hometown locality where they started years ago...when its may not be the best current business decision to keep it there.
Doughless I don't think its possible to predict what a new owner will do with a business.
I don't think its possible to predict what a new owner will do with a business.
Doughless richhotrain Doughless I would think that who owns Klein's now is of little interest to most buyers. That depends on who is running the operation. Most, if not all, changes of ownership result in a change of business plans, directly affecting inventory, pricing, shipping, etc. As a buyer of MTS in the past, I become immediately wary of any change in ownership. Rich I guess so. I don't think its possible to predict what a new owner will do with a business. If the business model in the UK eventually shrank and died, I would not assume that they would then take that same failed business model to the USA. Based upon what Hatton's has said, their business model has been sinking for a while, so they jumped ship before it completely sank and bought Klein's to continue on selling model trains. I don't think that means they want to turn Klein's into Hatton's. JMO. What seems to be happening is that the new owner has no emotional ties/ allegiences to the Baltimore area and is simply moving Ops to a more economically advantageous area...which is probably a positive business decision. OTOH family owners tend to have alligiences to their hometown locality where they started years ago...when its may not be the best current business decision to keep it there.
Completely agreed.
It is starting to look like this was the plan all along, Buy Kleins, streamline its operation, get out of used trains and retail in the UK.
Personally, I think the only way the used merchandise thing works in on platforms like Ebay or in person like the train shows.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Personally, I think the only way the used merchandise thing works in on platforms like Ebay or in person like the train shows.
From what I understand the economy in the UK is worse than ours, its harder to sell things there between inflation, taxes, high energy prices due to "green" policies.
Mystery solved- I had someone message me from another group as to where their last shipment came from Model Train Stuff and the address is 1101 Hills Road, Fremont NE 68025. That is the address for one of the warehouses for Heartland Hobby Wholesale. So basically Klein is now just a website that funnels traffic from Heartland Hobby Wholesale. Here is the building- https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4196734,-96.4717564,3a,19.9y,246.88h,90.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIOmDVqHQvHKn6P33kVT8uA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
NorthBritHattons already have a warehouse in Nebraska. Possibly Klein's stuff will be shipped from there.
So it seems that Hatton's already had a presence in the USA market before they bought Klein's, and has some understanding of how the USA market already worked.
Like you said, they are increasing their market share in the USA.
Question: Does Heartland have a website storefront (under a different name) or are they just a wholesaler? Just saying that we might see the disappearance of another website with the purchase of Klein's (I would think there is no bigger storefront than Klein's, so it would survive.)
Doughless NorthBrit Hattons already have a warehouse in Nebraska. Possibly Klein's stuff will be shipped from there. So it seems that Hatton's already had a presence in the USA market before they bought Klein's, and has some understanding of how the USA market already worked. Like you said, they are increasing their market share in the USA. Question: Does Heartland have a website storefront (under a different name) or are they just a wholesaler? Just saying that we might see the disappearance of another website with the purchase of Klein's (I would think there is no bigger storefront than Klein's, so it would survive.)
NorthBrit Hattons already have a warehouse in Nebraska. Possibly Klein's stuff will be shipped from there.
Hatton's doesn't have any ownership in Heartland. Heartland shows it is owned by VSA who also purchased Model Rectifier- (MRC) back in 2019. Heartland never sold direct to the public just wholesale. The parent company VSA also appears to distribute audiovisual equipment as well.
They did note with Kleins that orders world be fulfilled by 3rd parties so that is what is going on. (Similar to what some other companies have done prior with drop shipping- they place the order from a 3rd party seller once you order it) I did see one article that Heartland has not sold to the public just wholesale. Apparently they struck a deal to just have them ship out for them.
Jim
Just a comment that Hatton's in the UK is not insolvent or bankrupt. Their business did have a loss of 96,000 pounds in 2022 (apparently in large part due to Bachmann dropping Hatton's as distributor of their UK "Branchline" OO trains), but had a 750,000 pound profit in 2021, with net assets over 5.5 million. The people who own the company are just choosing to shut it down - seemingly quite suddenly, as the UK model railway magazines have two-page Hatton's ads in them.
Also, as has been mentioned (and despite some speculation), there appears to be no connection between Hatton's buying Klein's and Hatton's decision to cease business; or that Hatton's is moving to the US, etc.
Perhaps time to move on from Klein's to another vendor?
wjstix Just a comment that Hatton's in the UK is not insolvent or bankrupt. Their business did have a loss of 96,000 pounds in 2022 (apparently in large part due to Bachmann dropping Hatton's as distributor of their UK "Branchline" OO trains), but had a 750,000 pound profit in 2021, with net assets over 5.5 million. The people who own the company are just choosing to shut it down - seemingly quite suddenly, as the UK model railway magazines have two-page Hatton's ads in them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RgW4qCgYns Also, as has been mentioned (and despite some speculation), there appears to be no connection between Hatton's buying Klein's and Hatton's decision to cease business; or that Hatton's is moving to the US, etc.
Nobody said they were insolvent, but assuming ModelTrainStuff stays in business in one form or another, Hattons buying MTS and closing their UK operations is them effectively moving to the US.
And its looks more and morec,more, that might have been the plan from the beginning.
kasskaboose Perhaps time to move on from Klein's to another vendor?
I have not bought anything from them in a decade. That web site is terrible to use. I hate any of those sites where you have scroll thru pages of stuff to find what you want. Trainworld and ToyTrainHeaven are much easier to use, prices and selection similar.
And I live in a place where there are still good brick and mortar stores that are a reasonable drive, not close but reasonable.
I've already moved on and haven't made any purchases from Kleins since early December when had to use up my reward points.
As far as I am concerned, the Hattons/MBK discussion has been nothing now but grist for the mill.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Until last December, Fremont was my away from home terminal. We used to stay at the Oak Tree, now Baymont, off US 30 between Walmart and Menard's. They moved us down to Council Bluffs, but we still go to/from Fremont for some trains.
Jeff