selector As some of you would have noticed, when I joined 18 years ago, I ran with it hard. I think I amassed maybe 18K posts inside of eight or nine years, and then slowed. As my own version of the hobby became refined, educated, and narrowed, I found less to look for, and then found that I would get more if I visited several forums daily. Even that has changed, but so has what interests me. I have moved on, but also back. I am now going to construct an observatory and mount a large refractor on a pier inside with a 'go-to' mount. This would be a return to an old pursuit. It doesn't help that two other events have short-circuited my enthusiasm, one health-related and the other as a result of my wonderful wife becoming over-zealous about mucking out the train room and organizing it...and the garage next door. She lifted the swing-up bridge not knowing that all 16 rail ends had joiners on them, and she....umm...destroyed about 15' of trackage. I'm trying to find the mojo to perform the repairs before I fly out to Calgary to help drive my youngest and her two young boys back to Vancouver Island. I have planted the train bug into the eldest, and he wants to see them run. (...SIGH...). Finally, my father is enduring probably his last two or three years of life with mounting issues, and that tends to throw up a lot of chaff suddenly. It's hard to get a good long run at something to accomplish it let alone to enjoy it. I especially agree about RTR and the evolution of the hobby. It's a purchase-online-and-return-if-you-don't-like-it world where packages are dropped off at so many doors with a ready-made solution to real and imagined problems. I wonder how the younger folk have the time to build a railroad when they have to unpack all those Uber Eats and Door Dash goodies that save them all that time and expense.
As some of you would have noticed, when I joined 18 years ago, I ran with it hard. I think I amassed maybe 18K posts inside of eight or nine years, and then slowed. As my own version of the hobby became refined, educated, and narrowed, I found less to look for, and then found that I would get more if I visited several forums daily. Even that has changed, but so has what interests me. I have moved on, but also back. I am now going to construct an observatory and mount a large refractor on a pier inside with a 'go-to' mount. This would be a return to an old pursuit.
It doesn't help that two other events have short-circuited my enthusiasm, one health-related and the other as a result of my wonderful wife becoming over-zealous about mucking out the train room and organizing it...and the garage next door. She lifted the swing-up bridge not knowing that all 16 rail ends had joiners on them, and she....umm...destroyed about 15' of trackage. I'm trying to find the mojo to perform the repairs before I fly out to Calgary to help drive my youngest and her two young boys back to Vancouver Island. I have planted the train bug into the eldest, and he wants to see them run. (...SIGH...). Finally, my father is enduring probably his last two or three years of life with mounting issues, and that tends to throw up a lot of chaff suddenly. It's hard to get a good long run at something to accomplish it let alone to enjoy it.
I especially agree about RTR and the evolution of the hobby. It's a purchase-online-and-return-if-you-don't-like-it world where packages are dropped off at so many doors with a ready-made solution to real and imagined problems. I wonder how the younger folk have the time to build a railroad when they have to unpack all those Uber Eats and Door Dash goodies that save them all that time and expense.
selector I have planted the train bug into the eldest, and he wants to see them run. (...SIGH...).
Most seem to really want to plant the bug and see it flourish. Sounds like you are not looking forward to it. But due to all of the other factors, I can understand it somewhat.
Finally, my father is enduring probably his last two or three years of life with mounting issues, and that tends to throw up a lot of chaff suddenly. It's hard to get a good long run at something to accomplish it let alone to enjoy it.
Thats my battle as well. As I've tried to push along layout construction, many things slow it or stop it for periods. I visited my 90 year old mother late April 2022 and found her not well - next morning she was in the hospital being tested and positive for Covid, thanks to my careless older sister who didn't bother telling anyone she had tested positive midweek beforehand. I ended up staying at my moms an hour away from my house for the following 12 months. So basically I didn't do much work on the layout for that 12 months, April 2022 to April 2023. With the help of my wife, we finally got two carers in 7 days a week so my mom could stay in her home as long as possible and allow me to move back home - mom turns 92 this Sept 1. She routinely is taken to the emergency room at the large hospital only a 5 minute drive from her house - I've lost count. Except for that Covid diagnosis, they basically never find anything wrong. But she will have to go into a nursing home in the coming months if things stay like this.
Add to that my wife has an endless to-do list to remodel or upgrade the house so I am expected to help with all those things. Hobby time is very limited.
I've never used those delivery services but due to the lack of hobby time, the RTR stuff at least helps me get closer to an operating layout. I can't imagine having time to build a large layout and build a large number of kits. As it is, that RTR stuff still has to be kadee height guaged and in the case of all those Athearn and Atlas items, converted to Kadees.
In order to make progress, I sometimes have to burn PTO at work so I can come home on a weekday and work on the layout. I did that past two Fridays to get the main yard track moved forward. I'll probaby buy a pre-fab helix to speed up connecting the two levels. Time ...
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
BATMANSo, if you don't like what goes on here there are a lot and I mean a lot of other establishments you can try out with just a couple of keystrokes. Don't whine, don't complain, go quietly into the night or jump up and down and loudly proclaim you're leaving.
Nah. Just less active.
BATMANI had asked about the Loksound problem on a couple of forums and though I got a lot of responses 90% of them did not help in the least and some were just bad advice. If you want answers fast without the chit-chat you can't beat the "narrow-focus" Facebook groups where if you stray off topic even slightly the post will be removed. I recently went to an airbrush group on FB and had a couple of questions about mixing different brands of paint and asked about what colour the item should be painted. The answer I got was 3 drops of this and 1 drop of that. It was perfect. I was in and out with an answer with no chit-chat.
This happens a lot. People will chime in with what they know about the topic, but it doesn't answer the question. Those types of comments then steer the topic to a related tangent of the topic, and then those comments lead to another related tangent. Then after about a page, the topic discusses something different than what the OP started. Related, but still different
It's people being social about railroading, discussing what they know, rather than staying on the OPs topic.
Having said that, I'm not the forum police, nor do I get irritated by these topical transisions like some others might. I think that if the responder is not answering the question, he is still providing some relevant information that I might find useful.
Maybe the question is...What is chit-chat...or coffee clutch...Is it personal stuff like in the Diner, or is it Off Topic discussions about model railroading related stuff?
- Douglas
Doughless riogrande5761 tstage gregc i wonder if some forums are more for entertainment than information. Greg, I think in the nearly 20 years that I've belonged to this forum, I've seen a trend more towards entertainment and away from interesting or helpful threads. That's not to say that aren't interesting or helpful topics being posted here. I just don't see nearly as many of them as I used to, which is sad from my perspective. Tom Here 16 years as a member and I agree with Tom on his assessment. It's evolved into more of a coffee clutch as time went by which isn't much of a draw for me. I tend not to read or post much as I used to. Different strokes. I think those other types of threads have moved on, and I think many of them have just moved on from the hobby, so what you describe as a coffee clutch is what remains. Less help is generally needed in the RTR era, with all kinds of specific models already built and ready to run. And I think that smaller shelf type of layouts have gotten a bit more popular, reducing carpentry and wiring problems. I have been on the forum for 15 years, and my interests for railroad related discussions prior to the year 2000 has gone away, at least for a while. Era has become a bigger deal for me than it used to be.
riogrande5761 tstage gregc i wonder if some forums are more for entertainment than information. Greg, I think in the nearly 20 years that I've belonged to this forum, I've seen a trend more towards entertainment and away from interesting or helpful threads. That's not to say that aren't interesting or helpful topics being posted here. I just don't see nearly as many of them as I used to, which is sad from my perspective. Tom Here 16 years as a member and I agree with Tom on his assessment. It's evolved into more of a coffee clutch as time went by which isn't much of a draw for me. I tend not to read or post much as I used to. Different strokes.
tstage gregc i wonder if some forums are more for entertainment than information. Greg, I think in the nearly 20 years that I've belonged to this forum, I've seen a trend more towards entertainment and away from interesting or helpful threads. That's not to say that aren't interesting or helpful topics being posted here. I just don't see nearly as many of them as I used to, which is sad from my perspective. Tom
gregc i wonder if some forums are more for entertainment than information.
Greg,
I think in the nearly 20 years that I've belonged to this forum, I've seen a trend more towards entertainment and away from interesting or helpful threads. That's not to say that aren't interesting or helpful topics being posted here. I just don't see nearly as many of them as I used to, which is sad from my perspective.
Tom
Here 16 years as a member and I agree with Tom on his assessment. It's evolved into more of a coffee clutch as time went by which isn't much of a draw for me. I tend not to read or post much as I used to. Different strokes.
I think those other types of threads have moved on, and I think many of them have just moved on from the hobby, so what you describe as a coffee clutch is what remains. Less help is generally needed in the RTR era, with all kinds of specific models already built and ready to run.
And I think that smaller shelf type of layouts have gotten a bit more popular, reducing carpentry and wiring problems.
I have been on the forum for 15 years, and my interests for railroad related discussions prior to the year 2000 has gone away, at least for a while. Era has become a bigger deal for me than it used to be.
I agree that the talk has evolved into more of a chit-chat group and I think one reason is there are so many more places to find answers out there. There is a FB group that only focuses on weathering track only and other groups that have a very narrow focus on what is being discussed. If I find I am having an issue with something such as I had recently with a Loksound decoder I contact Loksound and the problem is quickly diagnosed and resolved. I had asked about the Loksound problem on a couple of forums and though I got a lot of responses 90% of them did not help in the least and some were just bad advice.
If you want answers fast without the chit-chat you can't beat the "narrow-focus" Facebook groups where if you stray off topic even slightly the post will be removed. I recently went to an airbrush group on FB and had a couple of questions about mixing different brands of paint and asked about what colour the item should be painted. The answer I got was 3 drops of this and 1 drop of that. It was perfect. I was in and out with an answer with no chit-chat.
So, if you don't like what goes on here there are a lot and I mean a lot of other establishments you can try out with just a couple of keystrokes. Don't whine, don't complain, go quietly into the night or jump up and down and loudly proclaim you're leaving. I have been here 17 years and when I croak no one here will show up at my funeral, so let's keep things in perspective.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
gregc i am reluctant to read a lengthy 100+ post thread which may be on a topic of interest, searching to find useful nuggets of information and gotta wonder about their value.
i am reluctant to read a lengthy 100+ post thread which may be on a topic of interest, searching to find useful nuggets of information and gotta wonder about their value.
I personally like long threads that cover a detail topic I'm interested in. I have lots to learn on many topics so long threads provide many useful nuggets, less so for more experienced readers. I do stay away from debate topics such as DC versus DCC which rarely provide useful information!
gregc - post #1 i am reluctant to read a lengthy 100+ post thread which may be on a topic of interest, searching to find useful nuggets of information
I agree with you.
I work for a car company and the team I supervise provides direction for correcting very technical repairs at our dealers.
One thing in training which is stressed is the need for clear, concise but brief web responses to our techs. Why?
Studies show the human mind will read the first part of a post and then scan through the middle and go down to the end.
At times I have to dig though 100 + previous reports to try to find a trend but I am getting paid to do so.
On my own time no way. Others may feel differently.
Jim
richhotrainWell, that is a pretty restricted time frame.
I don't know how to write data extraction code like Greg does.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
You wanted a psychologist, you got one, and now you're complaining about their answer?
I think there will always be communities or even 'cliques' of people with particular interests who start or participate in particular threads that interest them. Same for those who have social vs. technical interests. The point is that the common machinery of a forum... or, before them, a BBS or even an e-mail reflector, facilitates ALL the methods of communication, and makes them available to all. It doesn't dictate that everyone listen to every post, or agree with every activity.
As what might be a helpful note: waaaaaay back in the days before the World Wide Web took off (and before Google and other cataloging engines were properly developed and run), there were arguments about the 'metaphor' that using the consumer Internet should take. Some of these considered that the 'cyberspace' of '80s SF was how you'd find and interact with things; another variant used some kind of mapped community (or nested directory arranged as that -- anyone remember geocities?). It was in this era that the metaphor of 'forum' was developed, as a virtual space, different from, say, a chatroom where every line was just added, like on the TMI incident printer, and you had to winkle out 'your' conversation from all the other effective noise, or a reflector where every new contribution went to everyone's inbox. Think of the classic Roman forum: a defined space in which you can walk around. There might be soapboxes with orators discussing or declaiming, or academies either with teachers or Socratic-method education, or technical libraries, or stores you could buy things from... all depending on your inclination or interest, with no requirement that you had to go through gatekeepers or pay 'dues' or have to listen to or participate in anything that didn't interest or concern you.
Perhaps that addresses gregc's original question...
charlie hebdoI would prefer not to speculate why multiple/frequent responses would be disturbing to anyone.
no one suggested disturbing
gregc - post #1i am reluctant to read a lengthy 100+ post thread which may be on a topic of interest, searching to find useful nuggets of information
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc,Going back to your original post: yes, the popularity of the forum is about the social culture rather than the subject matter. You could have a forum about the most popular of subjects, but if there's no social interaction and/or if there's a bad culture, the chances of it becoming busy are rather remote.
I have been a forum participant on the Model Railroader website since my very eary days online (I was on the newsgroup rec.models.railroad back in the mid-1990s). I was in college from 1993-98 and in between classes, I would surf the web (w/ Netscape!) in the PC labs. Back then, MR had a "Question of the Month" by Andy Sperando. It was posted in a "Guestbook" fashion: he would write the question, and folks could answer it. There was zero interaction. He asked, we answered. Andy didn't reply much if at all, and no one really interacted with each other. It was pretty boring, and worse, you felt like your reply was never even read by anyone. The guestbook format lasted a while, but then true forum software was still in its infancy. There were no accounts required, you just typed in a field and hit "post".Next, MR had a new forum that was in a terrible format. Every single post and reply had to be clicked on to read it. And remember this was on dial-up internet. Imagine a thread with 30 replies - it would take perhaps 15 minutes just to read them all as it would take 30 seconds or so to load each message as the page had ads that needed to be loaded with each click. And so many posts were just "Me, too!" or words to that effect. Worst of all was the total lack of moderation control. The trolls got pretty bad for a while. Again, no accounts were required.In early 2001, MR changed to a much better forum software that required accounts and they hired moderators to keep the signal-to-noise ratio down. It took me about a year of lurking before deciding it was worth signing up for an account in May 2002. And now I am still here 21 years later.I used to average about 2 posts a week but now it's more like 1 post a month. Why? Well, back then my old retail job left me with a lot of downtime between customers. Today, I'm usually too busy with work to get deeply involved on forum topics. Zoom sessions, magazine editing, model reviews, instruction manuals; all involve me sitting in front of the computer screen for hours a day. Pounding a keyboard for fun after work just isn't as fun as it used to be.
richhotrainAnd that was my point that some forum members cannot restrain themselves from replying to a large number of threads on an ongoing basis, and those replies are not always substantive.
In the 17 years I have been around I have averaged 1.46 posts per day. Considering what little I have to offer in the expertise category, I just may be a post-hog. I had better cut back.
richhotrainBut, be that as it may, some forum members seem to feel a pathological obligation to respond to each and every thread, or nearly so.
Ya think? Speaking as a Trains Forum member for years and as a clinical psychologist, I believe people participate on here if they are interested and/or enjoy the process. Threads like the Diner serve more of a social purpose. I never was interested in those on the Trains Forum so I ignored. And that is probably what would be best on any forum: ignore those threads in which one has no interest.
I would prefer not to speculate why multiple/frequent responses would be disturbing to anyone.
SeeYou190 richhotrain But, be that as it may, some forum members seem to feel a pathological obligation to respond to each and every thread, or nearly so. I have not seen this. Looking over the twenty most recent threads with responses, no individual has responded to more than four of them within the past three days.
richhotrain But, be that as it may, some forum members seem to feel a pathological obligation to respond to each and every thread, or nearly so.
I have not seen this.
Looking over the twenty most recent threads with responses, no individual has responded to more than four of them within the past three days.
When I posted my initial reply to this thread, I honestly had no specific screen names in mind. But, after reading your reply, I went back and clicked on certain screen names that quickly came to mind. Some of those screen names showed multiple replies per day to a variety of threads over a multi-day period.
And that was my point that some forum members cannot restrain themselves from replying to a large number of threads on an ongoing basis, and those replies are not always substantive.
Rich
Alton Junction
If you don't consider my daily responses to Show Me Something and the Trackside Diner, I typically respond to only two or three threads a day, and almost never in DCC or Prototype categories.
I also try to bundle my responses into one reply post so I don't "Post Hog".
Sure, there have been days when I have responded to the SMS and JTD five times or more, but those are social threads, and sometimes they really get moving.
Some days there are lots of threads that interest me, other days, not as many.
richhotrainPartly to blame in my opinion is a member post count and a thread view count.
The Warseer forum assigned a "rank" based on posts. The first few levels were kind of demeaning. New members posted as often as they could to reach the rank of "knight", and then they slowed down.
That was a bad system.
Well for some like me, I veiw this forum as if I was having a discusion at the club I used to belong to (don't say, then go to the club, like MRR hobby shops, they don't exist except far away here, they used to be everywhere). It is pointless to talk on a lot of topics on other forums about many subjects because it is hard to find people with a similar connection, like model railroading. One first needs a topic of intrest to draw one into the conversation, sure I could go to another forum and search and search for a hook but it is very hard to find, even in topics that intrest me. Me, I like to dicuss a myrad of items in one conversation, otherwize I get bored. Yes I could talk to neigbors but we have nothing else in common but living near by. And don't say the Diner as that is just one long thread and hard to find an entry point into the conversaion, now if the Diner was broken up into sub theards, great but then it becomes a forum within a forum which would be fine but we all know that ain't gonna happen.
richhotrainlet me say that despite greg's best intentions to get at the conduct of the forum
i believe my intention is to present some observations about
one possibly conclusion is that the MR forums are more informative per post than some others
another is that the more focused threads dissuade others from participating
As a starter, let me say that despite greg's best intentions to get at the conduct of the forum and its members, this thread is predictably nothing more than a list of complaints as to how the forum is used by its members.
Truth be told, the manner in which the forum is set up, and the limitations imposed on Tom to moderate it, results in an inability to change it. Nothing said or wished for in this thread can have any effect on the conduct of the forum because the members are pretty much free to say whatever they want, how often they want.
Partly to blame in my opinion is a member post count and a thread view count. At one time, there was also a daily post count. So, for some, it was a daily contest to top the list. In my opinion, the forum would be much better off without any of these counts.
I look at my own post count. It seems astronomical, but over a 19 1/2 year period, it only amounts to 3.5 posts a day. A lot of that activity took place in the early years of my participation in the forum as I was learning all about HO scale modeling. Later on, most of my posts took the form of replies to other's threads where I felt that I had something to offer.
But, be that as it may, some forum members seem to feel a pathological obligation to respond to each and every thread, or nearly so. My guess is that even without the post count that perceived obligation would still be in place. For others, the view count on their own threads is highly valued, but I will resist speculating as to exactly what drives the view count. It is not always what it seems.
So, let's face it. greg got it right in his initial post. The forum is as much about social interaction as it is about technical content. It is also addictive. I probably tell myself once a week that I am going to stop checking in on the forum. But, I cannot help myself. I cannot resist the possibility that something interesting will pop up, but more often than not, at least lately, I find myself annoyed.
Yeah, I know, no one is making me read these threads, so just move on. But, heck, where's the fun in that? Once annoyed, twice viewed. Inadvertently, I am adding to the view count.
selectorThank-you, Tom, for the excellent work you have done, day in and day out.
Plus 1.
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
SeeYou190When a question is about how to program a brand XXX DCC decoder, and all you have to say is that you will never use DCC, it detracts from the thread.
but aren't these the type of comments that result from people just trying to participate in some social activity, having no better outlet such as a Diner thread.
Do you listen, or do you just wait to talk? -- Pulp Fiction
tommymrWhat really bothers me about some of the posts are the people who have nothing to add regarding the post. For instance, "I would never buy one of those, I model only the 1920s." When the original question was "If you have an X, what do you think of it?"
I have to admit this bothers me also.
When a question is about how to program a brand XXX DCC decoder, and all you have to say is that you will never use DCC, it detracts from the thread.
selectoruse the PM to coach people about how to become more influential with us and less contentional or confrontational.
Well, that ain't gonna work.
What's option B?
tommymr What really bothers me about some of the posts are the people who have nothing to add regarding the post. For instance, "I would never buy one of those, I model only the 1920s." When the original question was "If you have an X, what do you think of it?" I hate plowing through nonsensical, non answers like that. If you have no experience on the topic, you don't need to chime in. To keep topics streamlined, stuff like that needs to be moderated out.
What really bothers me about some of the posts are the people who have nothing to add regarding the post. For instance, "I would never buy one of those, I model only the 1920s." When the original question was "If you have an X, what do you think of it?" I hate plowing through nonsensical, non answers like that. If you have no experience on the topic, you don't need to chime in. To keep topics streamlined, stuff like that needs to be moderated out.
When Tom, some other volunteers, and I began to push the forum toward a more friendly culture and tone about 15 years ago, it was a protracted, sometimes awful, contentious, vituperative, and vengeful process that eventually had some people banned outright. The point is that, when Tom in Ohio had to call it a day-plus-three-hours in Ohio, I had joined at my PC on Vancouver Island, read into the moderator's forum to learn what was up, and then begun to take the pressure from Tom so he could go to bed, often after midnight. There were at least three other volunteers who came and went over the next three years. We spelled each other off to ensure the forum was given constant, and consistent, steerage, all under the guise of Bergie, the company's sole moderator at the time.
Tom is now the lone 'after hours guy', and he took it upon himself once again about seven years ago now, maybe more. A forum's tone and culture can shift inside of a few minutes, but we don't have the kind of moderation that it takes to run a forum any more. Tom has done yeoman's service all by himself.
To that end, it becomes incumbent upon the 'elders' here, especially if they find the culture shifting in an unwanted direction, to speak up, or to use the PM to coach people about how to become more influential with us and less contentional or confrontational. If threads are drifting badly, tell the participants that the thread is being hijacked. But, this should be the purview and the duty of the thread's originator, something that often doesn't happen for a few days until he/she pops in again. This puts the onus, in a perfect world, back onto a cadre of moderators...which we don't have.
Thank-you, Tom, for the excellent work you have done, day in and day out. Literally, for years now.
The MR forum software used to allow this, as well as combining threads, and was a really handy tool for the moderators. That capability was lost a few years back when the current software started loosing functionality.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
kasskabooseOne thing not mentioned is people steering topics in different directions.
when this happens on other forums the moderators can split the thread. so now there are multiple threads each on its own topic. people can participate in either or both and aren't confused about responses
One thing not mentioned is people steering topics in different directions. I am the 1st to admit guilt of doing it. Sometimes, altering the topic can help encourage others to partcipate, other times its to fulfill my self-interest, or idle curiousity.
Regardless, of reason(s) encouraging others to keep a thread alive might generate additional engagement. There are plenty here who have a wealth of knowledge (one measurement is the long list of avatars someone made from here). Regardless of skill or experience level, EVERYONE here has something to contribute. Ultimately, it's up to the OP to decide how to proceed.
Keeping things civil is paramount. I know some like the banter about the DC/DCC thread or best way to do________. Just do what works for you and enjoy the hobby. Perhaps we ought to more closely emulate the approach with Pokemon cards: good luck and have fun.