forum culture

[gregc]

rrebell

You start a thread and try to get an answer or make a statement and then were it goes after that, why do you care?

because i feel is discourages the discussion about the topic

rrebell

What we need on this forum is more partisipation and not less.

what kind of participation?

[csxns]

SeeYou190

all might be handled by different freight cars. I honestly don't know. I have only witnessed molasses loaded onto boxcars in blue 65 gallon drums in the 1990s.

Back here in the 80's and 90's when Dixie Yeast was in business their molasses came in shorty tank cars most came in the longer ones in the winter time they heated the tank cars to un load the molasses.

[Doughless]

rrebell

Why is it that people who start threads seem to think they own them. You start a thread and try to get an answer or make a statement and then were it goes after that, why do you care? What we need on this forum is more partisipation and not less.

That's my thought exactly. 

[rrebell]

SeeYou190

 

 

Doughless

How far off is a discussion about sugar cane production from a question about molasses tank cars?

 

 

My information for discussion was about how there are at least four different types of molasses produced in the US, and they all might be handled by different freight cars. I honestly don't know. I have only witnessed molasses loaded onto boxcars in blue 65 gallon drums in the 1990s.

Someone else piped in with "Sucrose is sucrose" and I offered nothing in return about the cleanliness of sugar cane harvesting, milling, or refining. Nor did I get technical about anything.

I was trying to stay at least in the molasses realm.

 

 

gregc

Would you mind a rehash of the DC/DCC debate on your molasses thread?

 

 

Again, where is this debate? Did I live in the only part of the world where we all agreed DCC was better, but if you were already "in" for DC it might be beneficial for you, as an individual, to stay there?

I never was part of any of these debates. Why was there any debate? DCC is better for a hundred reasons, and DC is only better for three or four.

I do not personally know any model railroader that feels differently.

NOW... as for what color "Brunswick Green" is... that will start a fist-fight around these parts.

-Kevin

 

There was no debate on this thread, just an example of culture. Why is it that people who start threads seem to think they own them. You start a thread and try to get an answer or make a statement and then were it goes after that, why do you care? What we need on this forum is more partisipation and not less. Was on another forum that never shut down a thread. One time they were close but desided to let it play out and the thread shortly died of its own accord.

[Doughless]

SeeYou190

Doughless How far off is a discussion about sugar cane production from a question about molasses tank cars? My information for discussion was about how there are at least four different types of molasses produced in the US, and they all might be handled by different freight cars. I honestly don't know. I have only witnessed molasses loaded onto boxcars in blue 65 gallon drums in the 1990s. Someone else piped in with "Sucrose is sucrose" and I offered nothing in return about the cleanliness of sugar cane harvesting, milling, or refining. Nor did I get technical about anything. I was trying to stay at least in the molasses realm.

No need to explain.  I understand and also appreciate deviating into other aspects of the topic.  If we know how molasses is produced and sold, we can broaden the topic to include other types of rail cars that we might see.

I just pointed out the molasses thread to show how specific questions either go unanswered or can be mistinterpreted and an answer is given that the OP never considered.  But I appreciate all discussions on the topic.

[Doughless]

gregc

 

 

Doughless

Is a response non topical if its still about model trains, just not exactly the topic the OP started?

 

 

would you mind a rehash of the DC/DCC debate on your molasses thread?

i understand the comment about the DC/DCC debate thread and how it's an example of forum culture, but not a continuation of the debate on this thread.

 

I generally don't mind things that are easy to ignore. 

Like at any social setting, if the group grows larger and a few crazy old coots start  talking about their good old days, I just grab the guy I was talking to and we continue our convo amongst ourselves.  That's what the quote function is for.

I wouldn't get mad at the other guys, and wouldn't try to tell them to stop and stick to what I want to talk about.  It would just never occur to me to do that.

 Edit:  I get your point about any or all threads being steered towards a few recurring topics.  Eventually the thread gets taken over and fails to resemble what the OP intended.  I think that degree of off topic hijacking happens infrequently, and still a conversation can be had within all of the clutter. 

[SeeYou190]

Doughless

How far off is a discussion about sugar cane production from a question about molasses tank cars?

My information for discussion was about how there are at least four different types of molasses produced in the US, and they all might be handled by different freight cars. I honestly don't know. I have only witnessed molasses loaded onto boxcars in blue 65 gallon drums in the 1990s.

Someone else piped in with "Sucrose is sucrose" and I offered nothing in return about the cleanliness of sugar cane harvesting, milling, or refining. Nor did I get technical about anything.

I was trying to stay at least in the molasses realm.

gregc

Would you mind a rehash of the DC/DCC debate on your molasses thread?

Again, where is this debate? Did I live in the only part of the world where we all agreed DCC was better, but if you were already "in" for DC it might be beneficial for you, as an individual, to stay there?

I never was part of any of these debates. Why was there any debate? DCC is better for a hundred reasons, and DC is only better for three or four.

I do not personally know any model railroader that feels differently.

NOW... as for what color "Brunswick Green" is... that will start a fist-fight around these parts.

-Kevin

[gregc]

Doughless

Is a response non topical if its still about model trains, just not exactly the topic the OP started?

would you mind a rehash of the DC/DCC debate on your molasses thread?

i understand the comment about the DC/DCC debate thread and how it's an example of forum culture, but not a continuation of the debate on this thread.

[Doughless]

AEP528

The very first bullet point on the forum rules sticky:

Stay on topic -- model train talk only, please (though civil off-topic discussion is tolerated in the Diner thread).

 

Aye, there's the rub.  Is a response non topical if its still about model trains, just not exactly the topic the OP started?

Although harmless, I think we all agree that pics about lawn tractors and such are not about model trains.....

but how far off is a discussion about sugar cane production from a question about molasses tank cars?  Seems like everybody has their personal level of tolerance that they wish others would follow.

 

[SeeYou190]

Doughless

Careful Kevin. You're getting dangerously close to posting pics of lawn tractors.

I will need to be careful.

-Kevin

[AEP528]

The very first bullet point on the forum rules sticky:

Stay on topic -- model train talk only, please (though civil off-topic discussion is tolerated in the Diner thread).

[Doughless]

SeeYou190

 

 

 

Sugar Cane is one of the few areas where I have fairly good depth of knowledge. I started advancement in my career as the primary field engineering connection with my employer and Austoft who was importing the model 770 sugar cane harvester for United States Sugar. Austoft even opted to place their US headquarters in Fort Myers because that is where I lived and where I worked from.

For four months every year I lived at US Sugar Corporation. You can't spend that much time with sugar cane farmers and not learn a lot about how it all works.

I consider the Austoft 770 to be one of four machines that I am an expert with. You could take one completely apart, put it in a dump truck, unload it in a pile in front of my house, and I could assemble it for you.

-Photograph by Kevin Parson

Of course, that is all obsolete, they are all gone now.

Anyway, I was not in Clewiston in 1975, so I had no direct knowledge of how molasses was hauled back then. I was 15 years late to the party, thank goodness. My understanding is that sugar cane production was pure hell prior to mechanization.

 

Careful Kevin.  You're getting dangerously close to posting pics of lawn tractors. 

[Doughless]

SeeYou190

Your very first post in that thread said this: Doughless Answers and discussion appreciated. I took that to mean you were encouraging discussion. My bad

The discussion part got there quick.  The answer part is late in coming.

I wrote that because I already knew that the topic would invite comments that did not answer the question.  I guess you could say that I've been here long enough to understand the culture, LOL.

Either way, I'm not offended and I encourage any discussion on the topic of molasses and tank cars.  Its why I provided that response and its consistent with what I'm saying in this thread.  

Those that would've been looking only for answers might be disappointed.

[SeeYou190]

Doughless

I started a thread in the Prototype section about what kind of tank cars were used to transport molasses in 1975.  I was expecting an answer like 11,000 gallon tank cars.  Or an ACF this or that. 

Your very first post in that thread said this:

Doughless

Answers and discussion appreciated.

I took that to mean you were encouraging discussion. My bad.

Sugar Cane is one of the few areas where I have fairly good depth of knowledge. I started advancement in my career as the primary field engineering connection with my employer and Austoft who was importing the model 770 sugar cane harvester for United States Sugar. Austoft even opted to place their US headquarters in Fort Myers because that is where I lived and where I worked from.

For four months every year I lived at US Sugar Corporation. You can't spend that much time with sugar cane farmers and not learn a lot about how it all works.

I consider the Austoft 770 to be one of four machines that I am an expert with. You could take one completely apart, put it in a dump truck, unload it in a pile in front of my house, and I could assemble it for you.

-Photograph by Kevin Parson

Of course, that is all obsolete, they are all gone now.

Anyway, I was not in Clewiston in 1975, so I had no direct knowledge of how molasses was hauled back then. I was 15 years late to the party, thank goodness. My understanding is that sugar cane production was pure hell prior to mechanization.

Also, I don't like sugar beets. Sorry. I am a Floridian, the home team is cane, and cane rules.

I suppose that if you suggested to someone in Georgia that Nectarines are superior to (or even equal to) Peaches, it might be similar.

I know I should not be answering any threads in the Prototype section. It is just not where I belong.

-Kevin

[Doughless]

rrebell

there are answers to threads where someone has misread them, done that a number of times but ussually notice and deleat, but not always.

 

I think misinterpretation is a main reason for answers that might seem off topic.  The reader either has misread an answer, or the answerer themselves misread the question.  

Or the question itself is not written in a way that fosters the proper type of answer.

I started a thread in the Prototype section about what kind of tank cars were used to transport molasses in 1975.  I was expecting an answer like 11,000 gallon tank cars.  Or an ACF this or that.  What I got was:

The need for baffles in a tank car if its going to carry molasses

Links to other discussions on the topic, none of which spoke to 1975.

And then some humorous discussions about molasses tank cars blowing up.  Once in 1950 and another in 1919.

I didn't get offended at any of the non-reply replies.  I just figured that nobody understood the type of answer I was looking for, or were offering their thoughts on the topic in what ever helpful way they had to offer.  

[SeeYou190]

PRR8259

I stopped even reading them let alone posting anything.  I simply do not need the stress and hassle of constantly being belittled by the one individual.

I hope things have changed enough that you will be back often.

-Kevin

[rrebell]

there are answers to threads where someone has misread them, done that a number of times but ussually notice and deleat, but not always.

[Doughless]

Overmod

There are some threads where it's important to stay 'on point' -- when someone needs advice about a particular thing, on when the topic is on a reasonably well-defined subject.

Sorry, I don't agree that there is an importance.  I have started threads where the answers don't really come close to the question.  My reading skills allow me to pass by those responses or discard them rather quickly.

If say, 2 out of 10 replies are actually helpful, its better than 1 or zero.  I just assume the other 8 replies are people sincerely trying to offer what they know on the topic, knowing that their answer isn't perfect but might be helpful in some way. 

Are we talking about drifting way off topic.....like to houses, lawn tractors, relocating, etc.   Again, I don't see these comments as problematic and I choose to read them or not, depending on my mood.

[Overmod]

Doughless

I've always been a bit miffed as to why it so important to stay on topic in the first place.

There are some threads where it's important to stay 'on point' -- when someone needs advice about a particular thing, on when the topic is on a reasonably well-defined subject.  This thread is a case in point: drift around the subject of forum culture, member foibles or penchants, etc. adds to the discussion, but taking up the cudgels for DC vs. DCC in detail once again does not.

Now, I think part of this is due to a peculiarity in the way Forum software presents a thread -- once the topic is selected and the last post is being read, it's natural to respond to what you see, even if that is technically a diversion or even a full-blown hijack.  This also tends to be a concern with necro threads, because it requires careful inspection or even a bit of scrolling to recognize the dates on posts, but the last post or two sets the mood for replies...

[Doughless]

richhotrain

 

richhotrain

Truth be told, the manner in which the forum is set up, and the limitations imposed on Tom to moderate it, results in an inability to change it. Nothing said or wished for in this thread can have any effect on the conduct of the forum because the members are pretty much free to say whatever they want, how often they want.

 

 

 

As I mentioned in my first reply to this thread, whatever the culture of the forum is, there is nothing that any of us individually can do to change it. We cannot vet new members, and Tom's powers as moderator are severely limited, so we are all stuck with what we got.

 

I cannot help but notice though the number of views which has now exceeded 11,000, making this thread, for better or worse, one of the most popular threads on the forum, averaging nearly 500 views per day. People are interested in what one another have to say. Personally, I am getting a kick out of the whole matter.

Rich

 

I've always been a bit miffed as to why it so important to stay on topic in the first place.  The mods seem to let threads drift as long as they stay relevant to model railroading.  I agree.

[gregc]

richhotrain

whatever the culture of the forum is, there is nothing that any of us individually can do to change it.

i feel there are things that we do and don't do that influence culture:

• respond to an off topic or ill-willed post in a like many which propogates it 
• say nothing about off topic or ill-willed post which doesn't discourage it
• comment on off topic or ill-willed post in such a way that disagrees with and discourages it
• create a new thread from an off topic comment (as we've seen done)

[richhotrain]

richhotrain

Truth be told, the manner in which the forum is set up, and the limitations imposed on Tom to moderate it, results in an inability to change it. Nothing said or wished for in this thread can have any effect on the conduct of the forum because the members are pretty much free to say whatever they want, how often they want.

As I mentioned in my first reply to this thread, whatever the culture of the forum is, there is nothing that any of us individually can do to change it. We cannot vet new members, and Tom's powers as moderator are severely limited, so we are all stuck with what we got.

I cannot help but notice though the number of views which has now exceeded 11,000, making this thread, for better or worse, one of the most popular threads on the forum, averaging nearly 500 views per day. People are interested in what one another have to say. Personally, I am getting a kick out of the whole matter.

Rich

[PRR8259]

Forum culture?  

Tonight I read this forum for the first time in...quite awhile, and noticed this thread first, and just read much of it.

I freely admit I'm an imperfect person, and I tried to keep my past posts on these forums civil.  However, one individual decided that he had to argue and take issue with just about every single thing that I ever said.  That individual, I swear, if I said "the sky is blue" would argue it is any other color but blue.

That made these forums a less than fun experience, so I stopped even reading them let alone posting anything.  I simply do not need the stress and hassle of constantly being belittled by the one individual.

To the newbies who might read this, well I hope your experience is better than mine was.  That is all I have to say.

 

 

 

[IC_Tom]

MidlandMike

 

 

gregc

 

 

rrebell

why shut down one of the few threads realy active,

 

 

because i started it as a discussion of forum culture, not the price of TV or the DC/DCC debate.    you could start yet another thread on DC/DCC to bring the forum back alive

... or is that part of this forum's culture, to take the thread off topic?

 

 

 

 

Did you think forums were immune to entropy?

 

Nailed it.

[MidlandMike]

gregc

 

 

rrebell

why shut down one of the few threads realy active,

 

 

because i started it as a discussion of forum culture, not the price of TV or the DC/DCC debate.    you could start yet another thread on DC/DCC to bring the forum back alive

... or is that part of this forum's culture, to take the thread off topic?

 

Did you think forums were immune to entropy?

[kasskaboose]

Can you say clickbait?

I get the need to draw attention to a post, but this one is reaching diminishing return (sorry if I caused anyone PTSD with the economic term). 

Why do I still post here though?  Admission is the first step!

[BigDaddy]

richhotrain

If we keep our eyes on the prize, we could hit 100,000 Views

I missed it.  What is the prize?

All threads in all forums mutate to off topic. 

I look at the list of most recent threads on this forum and wonder "why is this thread still getting new posts" 

If I make the mistake of looking, I find someone is arguing about how molassas is made and someone else had rear end hurt because of something someone posted 5 or 10 years ago. 

[Doughless]

gregc

 

 

rrebell

why shut down one of the few threads realy active,

 

 

because i started it as a discussion of forum culture, not the price of TV or the DC/DCC debate.    you could start yet another thread on DC/DCC to bring the forum back alive

... or is that part of this forum's culture, to take the thread off topic?

 

But isn't that what creates a lot of replies.  If the thread is going to stay rigid to the topic, and focus on providing accurate information about the topic, how many replies can a thread have?

Once the thread is answered correctly or completely, not much is left to say.  When it drifts to opinion, points of view, and tangential topics then the reply count goes up. 

[Doughless]

csxns

 

 

gregc

thread off topic?

 

 

Same thing happens on the Trains forum.

 

 

In my quest to read more text about modern railroading and railroads, I have lurked on the Trains forum quite a bit lately.  

Yes, off topic there too.  Discussions often drift to how things were in the good old days, you know, prior to the year 2000.  Same as here.  

It seems that for a thread to get a lot of replies, the discussion has to quite often focus on how things used to be.

[csxns]

gregc

thread off topic?

Same thing happens on the Trains forum.

[gregc]

rrebell

why shut down one of the few threads realy active,

because i started it as a discussion of forum culture, not the price of TV or the DC/DCC debate.    you could start yet another thread on DC/DCC to bring the forum back alive

... or is that part of this forum's culture, to take the thread off topic?

[rrebell]

Also, why shut down one of the few threads realy active, you trying to put the final nail in this forum. We need more discusions to bring this forum back alive. If you don't like what you started, you move on, there is no law that says you have to ever revisit a thread you start!     Now this is forum culture.....

[rrebell]

Paul3

Um, Sheldon, you were the one posting DCC misinformation; saying things like every DCC loco decoder was $100 each, falsely inflating the price of DCC conversion back when we were comparing costs of DC vs. DCC.

You also said things like DCC was being "forced" on modelers by MR (and other hobby media). Instead, MR was just following the path the hobby had taken.

In the past, you have been on DCC-titled threads, making comments about using DC instead.  Not much different then DCC users commenting on DC threads.

Toggle flipping is still a thing; not everyone is an wiring expert like yourself.  I think the number of users of your type of DC control system is probably less than the total number of Z-scalers.  Heck, my club used toggle cab control for 45 years (1953-1998) before moving and switching to DCC in 1999.

Your kind of DC control is quite advanced and needs no little skill to design, create, and maintain.  You are gifted in that regard, but I think that is well beyond the average model railroader's skills.  DCC, OTOH, is quite simple to set up and use by comparison, even for new people to the hobby.

Sheldon, I'm just saying that it took a long time before you would give DCC the time of day on this forum.  You definitely started here with a (DC vs. DCC) bang... 

 

I have toggles on my DCC layout, like them for isolation on sidings and roundhouse so I can store some enginges on layout.

[AEP528]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

 

Forum culture - not enough talk about actual modeling for me these days - I'm doing my best to make time to build my layout. When the progress is interesting enough, I might post a picture or two.

 

The irony of this comment is undoubtedly lost on the poster.

[richhotrain]

Geez, I hadn't been paying attention to the number of Views. 10,300 !

That is awesome. I implore the mods not to shut this baby down. If we keep our eyes on the prize, we could hit 100,000 Views. Keep those comments coming.

Rich

[Paul3]

Um, Sheldon, you were the one posting DCC misinformation; saying things like every DCC loco decoder was $100 each, falsely inflating the price of DCC conversion back when we were comparing costs of DC vs. DCC.

You also said things like DCC was being "forced" on modelers by MR (and other hobby media). Instead, MR was just following the path the hobby had taken.

In the past, you have been on DCC-titled threads, making comments about using DC instead.  Not much different then DCC users commenting on DC threads.

Toggle flipping is still a thing; not everyone is an wiring expert like yourself.  I think the number of users of your type of DC control system is probably less than the total number of Z-scalers.  Heck, my club used toggle cab control for 45 years (1953-1998) before moving and switching to DCC in 1999.

Your kind of DC control is quite advanced and needs no little skill to design, create, and maintain.  You are gifted in that regard, but I think that is well beyond the average model railroader's skills.  DCC, OTOH, is quite simple to set up and use by comparison, even for new people to the hobby.

Sheldon, I'm just saying that it took a long time before you would give DCC the time of day on this forum.  You definitely started here with a (DC vs. DCC) bang... 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

SeeYou190

 

 

kasskaboose

See the fun DC vs. DCC debate.

 

 

I have never seen this debate.

There are a handful of us still using DC, because in our cases it meets our needs.

I will be the first one to recommend to any newcomer that they go with DCC. I do not recall anyone stating DC is better. I certainly don't feel that way.

However, it is right for me.

 

 

gzygadlo

Whole point of this hobby is to have fun and enjoy any way you see fit.

 

 

                 

-Kevin

 

Long before you joined us, if a person asked a DC wiring question, like how to wire a reverse loop, or how to use power routing to kill dead end sidings, a large contingent of DCC users would chime in and tell the poster the best solution to their problem was simply to switch to DCC.

Or, if advanced DC users like myself or Chuck Beckman (tomikawaTT) explained in detail what we were doing and suggested the idea that it might suit the needs of some users, we were met will all sorts of ugly name calling.

I was told by one person that I was "threatening the future of the hobby" by suggesting DC might be a good choice for some.

I wrote pages of technical info on my control system only to have it deleted by moderators.

So yes, I got defensive at times.

It also became tiresome to have to have misinformation about DC posted all the time by DCC users who had never used DC.

Stuff like you have to rewire engines to run them back to back, or you can't run multiple powered units in a consist, and of course my favorite, the warnings against the dreaded "toggle flipping".

56 years at this and my DC layouts with multiple trains in multiple blocks have never used "toggle switches", but what do I know? They have used several different systems to assign throttles to blocks - but not toggle switches.

I recommend DCC to new people also. I realize most new people are not interested in prototype operation, CTC, detection, signaling or taking the time to learn what they don't know about electrical control systems - and I'm not really interested in teaching them anyway.

I've used DCC, on lots of different layouts. It has its pluses and minuses.

But since I'm not interested in sound, and I am interested in CTC, DCC does not offer much that I can't do just as well with DC and wireless radio throttles.

Forum culture - not enough talk about actual modeling for me these days - I'm doing my best to make time to build my layout. When the progress is interesting enough, I might post a picture or two.

See you next week, or next month....

Sheldon

 

 

 

[MJ4562]

Unfortunately most long threads tend to be about debates and filled with opinions. I seldom participate and when I do I don't bother reading more than the previous page at most. 

Long threads discussing actual useful information, like protype practices et al, are rare but are great finds when I come across them. 

It irritates me to no end when people give strange or mysterious titles to their posts. I like organization and prefer threads with accurate titles as well as ones that remain on point. If you want to discuss something else, start a new thread. 

 

[BATMAN]

gregc

ever since i started looking at forums, i thought it would be interesting to read what a psychologist thought about them.  each seems to have it's own characteristics.   fortunately, they've found ways to prevent/discourage abusing and even inconsiderate posters. but i see different cultures on MR forums i watch in terms of # of posts and relavence to the thread topic, as well as other, more techinical forums (e.g. Arduino Programming Questions) what i find surprising is the large # of comments on a typical MRH thread.   i checked recently and found the average # post/thread to be 73 and not uncommon to see 200+ while threads describing someone's particular RR, started years ago have far greater comments (e.g. 800+)

Greg, I found your initial post a good one as I notice numbers in everything I do regardless of the relevance of them to any given situation. My 24-year-old son makes big bucks as an executive and his ability to annalize makes him a very valuable asset when it comes to big data. He doubled up on the numbers thing as his Mom is also a human calculator.

I think any shrink would say that human nature is fickle and most lack the ability for any meaningful critical thinking while at the same time jumping on any bandwagon that is criticizing anything. 

This was a good Filosophy Phriday question that would make for a good conversation with a small group sharing a good bottle of scotch.

[richhotrain]

gregc

time to shut down this thread ??

 I’m not sure why as this thread appears to be a perfect example of Forum Culture.

¼  Cheers, the Bear.

 

I agree with Ja Bear.

it is kinda fun reading, especially from a cultural standpoint.

Rich

["JaBear"]

gregc

time to shut down this thread ??

I’m not sure why as this thread appears to be a perfect example of Forum Culture.

¼  Cheers, the Bear.

[JoeinPA]

Please do.

[gregc]

time to shut down this thread ??

[tstage]

rrebell

you know you can get an 86" TV now for $1200.00 brand new.

Now if they could just put on something worthwhile to watch to make that $1,200 TV worth purchasing...

[rrebell]

SeeYou190

 

 

kasskaboose

See the fun DC vs. DCC debate.

 

 

I have never seen this debate.

There are a handful of us still using DC, because in our cases it meets our needs.

I will be the first one to recommend to any newcomer that they go with DCC. I do not recall anyone stating DC is better. I certainly don't feel that way.

However, it is right for me.

 

 

gzygadlo

Whole point of this hobby is to have fun and enjoy any way you see fit.

 

 

                 

-Kevin

 

I remember those debates, and in person too. I remember the first decoders and how things got to today. The thing that changed everything and took DCC to the more than half was sound and auto controls like the Frog Juicer. I used to be DC but soung grabbed me and the Juicers tipped me over the edge. The last thing to tip many over the edge is the cost has come way down for DCC but not as much as TV's, you know you can get an 86" TV now for $1200.00 brand new.

[SeeYou190]

kasskaboose

See the fun DC vs. DCC debate.

I have never seen this debate.

There are a handful of us still using DC, because in our cases it meets our needs.

I will be the first one to recommend to any newcomer that they go with DCC. I do not recall anyone stating DC is better. I certainly don't feel that way.

However, it is right for me.

gzygadlo

Whole point of this hobby is to have fun and enjoy any way you see fit.

                 

-Kevin

[gzygadlo]

I find myself coming here occasionally, along with the MRH forum.  I found on the MRH forum that they are not too accommodating to new people to the hobby and that if your radius is prototypical, they refer to it as toy trains, so I stopped posting over there at all.

This forum I find is not as bad as MRH, but at times opinions seem to overrule, but not all the time.  

Whole point of this hobby is to have fun and enjoy any way you see fit.

 

[kasskaboose]

There are always more constructive ways to offer advice.  Suggestions someone offers others can decide to take (or not).  I strongly believe we all have something to share on this forum.  Keeping things civil is always easier than than done (see the fun DC vs. DCC debate), but the important thing is appreciating this hobby and keeping an open discussion.

[charlie hebdo]

Overmod

You wanted a psychologist, you got one, and now you're complaining about their answer?...Perhaps that addresses gregc's original question...

I doubt it.  

[SeeYou190]

BATMAN

There are people that have opinions on how much of a layout should be scratch-built to qualify you as a true modeler railroader.

There is no qualification to be a Model Railroader other that having/enjoying models of railroad equipment.

If all you own is fishing gear, and all you do with your leisure time is go fishing, then you are not a Model Railroader.

I need to stop before I get too far into this.

-Kevin

[BATMAN]

maxman

 

 

BATMAN

I play my guitar for a couple of hours a day

 

 

And you still haven't figured out that chord?

 

LOL

It's only been 55 years.....soon.

[maxman]

BATMAN

when I was a kid we had the egg man, the bread man, and the milkman deliver to the house

When I was a kid the lady next door had the same thing.

But then one day her husband came home early.

[maxman]

BATMAN

I play my guitar for a couple of hours a day

And you still haven't figured out that chord?

[BATMAN]

Doughless

I do notice that part of the forum culture...maybe the hobby culture...is a bit of segregation of the model building portion of the hobby from the broader hobby.  I think some view the hobby as being about building your own models as often as possible

I build what I have time to build but in the end, I have to pick my battles. Buildings and rolling stock can be built from kits with varying degrees of difficulty or from scratch. Now we have computerization thrown into the mix, this just adds to the workload and learning curve as far as what expertise and the amount of time that is required to enjoy the hobby is.

I spent all weekend and one night a week just at the hockey rink when the kids were on the rise, my daughter was a competitive swimmer and took piano, cello, and clarinet lessons, lots of driving for us. I play my guitar for a couple of hours a day and keep in shape. Yet, I still have enough of a layout I have fun with and that is what counts. 

There are people that have opinions on how much of a layout should be scratch-built to qualify you as a true modeler railroader. I will never meet that level as there are too many other interests in life that I like to experience.

[Doughless]

AEP528

Allen McClelland partly credited the existance of the V&O to the newly available RTR equipment in the 1960's. To badly quote him, he was now able to spend his time building a model railroad instead of railroad models. But RTR must be due to kids these days, right? Everything old is new again. Even delivery services.

I do notice that part of the forum culture...maybe the hobby culture...is a bit of segregation of the model building portion of the hobby from the broader hobby. 

I think some view the hobby as being about building your own models as often as possible ...and no, I truly don't have anybody specific in mind because I think the idea pops up frequently from many old and new members.

Since I entered the hobby at age 14, I was never interested in building individual models of railroad equipment.  Structures, yes.  RR stuff, no.  I always have thought that "Model Railroading" was about the layout (Pike) and not about the individual models.

Age 14 was about the time the V&O got famous, so that's when I got hooked on the hobby.  If the hobby was about craftsman model building, I probably would have never gotten interested.

Its feeds into some differences in how we answer questions and what threads we participate in.  The layout construction and building section generally my go to section of this forum, but some things in the General Discussion section can pique my interest. 

[BATMAN]

AEP528

Everything old is new again. Even delivery services.

I don't know, when I was a kid we had the egg man, the bread man, and the milkman deliver to the house. You won't see me commenting on what people choose to have brought to them.

[AEP528]

selector

I especially agree about RTR and the evolution of the hobby. It's a purchase-online-and-return-if-you-don't-like-it world where packages are dropped off at so many doors with a ready-made solution to real and imagined problems.  I wonder how the younger folk have the time to build a railroad when they have to unpack all those Uber Eats and Door Dash goodies that save them all that time and expense. 

Allen McClelland partly credited the existance of the V&O to the newly available RTR equipment in the 1960's. To badly quote him, he was now able to spend his time building a model railroad instead of railroad models.

But RTR must be due to kids these days, right?

Everything old is new again. Even delivery services.

[Pruitt]

I joined this forum WA-A-A-Y  back, about two weeks after it went live. It was full of people trying to figure out what was okay to talk about or not, and how to share their particular interests in the hobby. They were fun days, and acrimony was not uncommon.

In the years since the forum has matured. Not a lot of contentiousness anymore, in large part because the moderators learned to keep a very tight rein of it.

I've never been part of the "chatty Cathy" crowd; I've visited the diner maybe all of half a dozen times in the last 22 years, and posted there only once or twice. I was never infected with the need to build post count, as many were in the early days.

I tend to stick to the threads related to modeling techniques, layout progress and such. These days reports on vendor issues are of special interest, since almost everyting I need I have to buy online. 

Sure, there are a lot of "koffee klatch" posts, but I think that's always been the case. For a whole lot of us, forums are the only place we can find many people who share our interests. Conversations are going to spill out of that.

But there are still the "hard modeling" threads, like hon30critter's snow plow scratchbuild thread, or HO-Velo's Shelf Coupler discussion. Maybe even my own ongoing layout construction thread? And there's a lot more.

The meat is still there, it's just mixed in with a bit more chaff than in the past.

[selector]

Thank-you both for your thoughtful replies.  I am not looking forward to the repair for two reasons: it would mean finally accepting that my swing-up idea and construction is a failure (too unstable and poorly registered, too flimsy at the hinges, etc) and must now be made permanently fixed in place, and my back ain't what it used to be.  I will have to bend over the area for a few hours desoldering, sliding knife under the ties and sawing free the tracks, cleaning the roadbed, and then making it all whole and pretty again.  I figure three or four days, about two hours a pop. 

[rrebell]

selector

As some of you would have noticed, when I joined 18 years ago, I ran with it hard.  I think I amassed maybe 18K posts inside of eight or nine years, and then slowed. As my own version of the hobby became refined, educated, and narrowed, I found less to look for, and then found that I would get more if I visited several forums daily.  Even that has changed, but so has what interests me. I have moved on, but also back.  I am now going to construct an observatory and mount a large refractor on a pier inside with a 'go-to' mount.  This would be a return to an old pursuit.

It doesn't help that two other events have short-circuited my enthusiasm, one health-related and the other as a result of my wonderful wife becoming over-zealous about mucking out the train room and organizing it...and the garage next door.  She lifted the swing-up bridge not knowing that all 16 rail ends had joiners on them, and she....umm...destroyed about 15' of trackage.  I'm trying to find the mojo to perform the repairs before I fly out to Calgary to help drive my youngest and her two young boys back to Vancouver Island.  I have planted the train bug into the eldest, and he wants to see them run. (...SIGH...).  Finally, my father is enduring probably his last two or three years of life with mounting issues, and that tends to throw up a lot of chaff suddenly. It's hard to get a good long run at something to accomplish it let alone to enjoy it. 

I especially agree about RTR and the evolution of the hobby. It's a purchase-online-and-return-if-you-don't-like-it world where packages are dropped off at so many doors with a ready-made solution to real and imagined problems.  I wonder how the younger folk have the time to build a railroad when they have to unpack all those Uber Eats and Door Dash goodies that save them all that time and expense. 

 

Unfortinatly life dose change and we seem to have more health issues as we age even though we have had a lot of those issues before, we were just able to shrug them off. I always thought a journal of my health issues would be good to have so that you remember all those aches and pains and know what is normal or not but I never did it except mentally. I had a lot when I was younger but ignored them, find it hard to ignore them as I age. As far as trains go, like a lot of people, there is a lot of info out there now and easy to retrive, I do the u-tube route myself. 

[riogrande5761]

selector

I have planted the train bug into the eldest, and he wants to see them run. (...SIGH...).

Most seem to really want to plant the bug and see it flourish.  Sounds like you are not looking forward to it.  But due to all of the other factors, I can understand it somewhat.

Finally, my father is enduring probably his last two or three years of life with mounting issues, and that tends to throw up a lot of chaff suddenly. It's hard to get a good long run at something to accomplish it let alone to enjoy it.

Thats my battle as well.  As I've tried to push along layout construction, many things slow it or stop it for periods.  I visited my 90 year old mother late April 2022 and found her not well - next morning she was in the hospital being tested and positive for Covid, thanks to my careless older sister who didn't bother telling anyone she had tested positive midweek beforehand.  I ended up staying at my moms an hour away from my house for the following 12 months.  So basically I didn't do much work on the layout for that 12 months, April 2022 to April 2023.  With the help of my wife, we finally got two carers in 7 days a week so my mom could stay in her home as long as possible and allow me to move back home - mom turns 92 this Sept 1.  She routinely is taken to the emergency room at the large hospital only a 5 minute drive from her house - I've lost count.  Except for that Covid diagnosis, they basically never find anything wrong.  But she will have to go into a nursing home in the coming months if things stay like this.

Add to that my wife has an endless to-do list to remodel or upgrade the house so I am expected to help with all those things.  Hobby time is very limited.

I especially agree about RTR and the evolution of the hobby. It's a purchase-online-and-return-if-you-don't-like-it world where packages are dropped off at so many doors with a ready-made solution to real and imagined problems.  I wonder how the younger folk have the time to build a railroad when they have to unpack all those Uber Eats and Door Dash goodies that save them all that time and expense. 

I've never used those delivery services but due to the lack of hobby time, the RTR stuff at least helps me get closer to an operating layout.  I can't imagine having time to build a large layout and build a large number of kits.  As it is, that RTR stuff still has to be kadee height guaged and in the case of all those Athearn and Atlas items, converted to Kadees.  

In order to make progress, I sometimes have to burn PTO at work so I can come home on a weekday and work on the layout.  I did that past two Fridays to get the main yard track moved forward.  I'll probaby buy a pre-fab helix to speed up connecting the two levels.  Time ...  

[selector]

As some of you would have noticed, when I joined 18 years ago, I ran with it hard.  I think I amassed maybe 18K posts inside of eight or nine years, and then slowed. As my own version of the hobby became refined, educated, and narrowed, I found less to look for, and then found that I would get more if I visited several forums daily.  Even that has changed, but so has what interests me. I have moved on, but also back.  I am now going to construct an observatory and mount a large refractor on a pier inside with a 'go-to' mount.  This would be a return to an old pursuit.

It doesn't help that two other events have short-circuited my enthusiasm, one health-related and the other as a result of my wonderful wife becoming over-zealous about mucking out the train room and organizing it...and the garage next door.  She lifted the swing-up bridge not knowing that all 16 rail ends had joiners on them, and she....umm...destroyed about 15' of trackage.  I'm trying to find the mojo to perform the repairs before I fly out to Calgary to help drive my youngest and her two young boys back to Vancouver Island.  I have planted the train bug into the eldest, and he wants to see them run. (...SIGH...).  Finally, my father is enduring probably his last two or three years of life with mounting issues, and that tends to throw up a lot of chaff suddenly. It's hard to get a good long run at something to accomplish it let alone to enjoy it. 

I especially agree about RTR and the evolution of the hobby. It's a purchase-online-and-return-if-you-don't-like-it world where packages are dropped off at so many doors with a ready-made solution to real and imagined problems.  I wonder how the younger folk have the time to build a railroad when they have to unpack all those Uber Eats and Door Dash goodies that save them all that time and expense. 

[riogrande5761]

BATMAN

So, if you don't like what goes on here there are a lot and I mean a lot of other establishments you can try out with just a couple of keystrokes. Don't whine, don't complain, go quietly into the night or jump up and down and loudly proclaim you're leaving.

Nah.  Just less active.

[Doughless]

BATMAN

I had asked about the Loksound problem on a couple of forums and though I got a lot of responses 90% of them did not help in the least and some were just bad advice. If you want answers fast without the chit-chat you can't beat the "narrow-focus" Facebook groups where if you stray off topic even slightly the post will be removed. I recently went to an airbrush group on FB and had a couple of questions about mixing different brands of paint and asked about what colour the item should be painted. The answer I got was 3 drops of this and 1 drop of that. It was perfect. I was in and out with an answer with no chit-chat.

This happens a lot.  People will chime in with what they know about the topic, but it doesn't answer the question.  Those types of comments then steer the topic to a related tangent of the topic, and then those comments lead to another related tangent.  Then after about a page, the topic discusses something different than what the OP started.  Related, but still different

It's people being social about railroading, discussing what they know, rather than staying on the OPs topic.

Having said that, I'm not the forum police, nor do I get irritated by these topical transisions like some others might.  I think that if the responder is not answering the question, he is still providing some relevant information that I might find useful.

Maybe the question is...What is chit-chat...or coffee clutch...Is it personal stuff like in the Diner, or is it Off Topic discussions about model railroading related stuff?

[BATMAN]

Doughless

 

 

riogrande5761

 

 

tstage

 

 

gregc

i wonder if some forums are more for entertainment than information.

 

Greg,

I think in the nearly 20 years that I've belonged to this forum, I've seen a trend more towards entertainment and away from interesting or helpful threads.  That's not to say that aren't interesting or helpful topics being posted here.  I just don't see nearly as many of them as I used to, which is sad from my perspective.

Tom

 

 

 

Here 16 years as a member and I agree with Tom on his assessment.  It's evolved into more of a coffee clutch as time went by which isn't much of a draw for me.  I tend not to read or post much as I used to.  Different strokes.

 

 

 

 

I think those other types of threads have moved on, and I think many of them have just moved on from the hobby, so what you describe as a coffee clutch is what remains.  Less help is generally needed in the RTR era, with all kinds of specific models already built and ready to run. 

And I think that smaller shelf type of layouts have gotten a bit more popular, reducing carpentry and wiring problems.

I have been on the forum for 15 years, and my interests for railroad related discussions prior to the year 2000 has gone away, at least for a while.  Era has become a bigger deal for me than it used to be.

 

I agree that the talk has evolved into more of a chit-chat group and I think one reason is there are so many more places to find answers out there. There is a FB group that only focuses on weathering track only and other groups that have a very narrow focus on what is being discussed. If I find I am having an issue with something such as I had recently with a Loksound decoder I contact Loksound and the problem is quickly diagnosed and resolved. I had asked about the Loksound problem on a couple of forums and though I got a lot of responses 90% of them did not help in the least and some were just bad advice.

If you want answers fast without the chit-chat you can't beat the "narrow-focus" Facebook groups where if you stray off topic even slightly the post will be removed. I recently went to an airbrush group on FB and had a couple of questions about mixing different brands of paint and asked about what colour the item should be painted. The answer I got was 3 drops of this and 1 drop of that. It was perfect. I was in and out with an answer with no chit-chat. 

So, if you don't like what goes on here there are a lot and I mean a lot of other establishments you can try out with just a couple of keystrokes. Don't whine, don't complain, go quietly into the night or jump up and down and loudly proclaim you're leaving. I have been here 17 years and when I croak no one here will show up at my funeral, so let's keep things in perspective.

[Doughless]

riogrande5761

 

 

tstage

 

 

gregc

i wonder if some forums are more for entertainment than information.

 

Greg,

I think in the nearly 20 years that I've belonged to this forum, I've seen a trend more towards entertainment and away from interesting or helpful threads.  That's not to say that aren't interesting or helpful topics being posted here.  I just don't see nearly as many of them as I used to, which is sad from my perspective.

Tom

 

 

 

Here 16 years as a member and I agree with Tom on his assessment.  It's evolved into more of a coffee clutch as time went by which isn't much of a draw for me.  I tend not to read or post much as I used to.  Different strokes.

 

I think those other types of threads have moved on, and I think many of them have just moved on from the hobby, so what you describe as a coffee clutch is what remains.  Less help is generally needed in the RTR era, with all kinds of specific models already built and ready to run. 

And I think that smaller shelf type of layouts have gotten a bit more popular, reducing carpentry and wiring problems.

I have been on the forum for 15 years, and my interests for railroad related discussions prior to the year 2000 has gone away, at least for a while.  Era has become a bigger deal for me than it used to be.

[riogrande5761]

tstage

 

 

gregc

i wonder if some forums are more for entertainment than information.

 

Greg,

I think in the nearly 20 years that I've belonged to this forum, I've seen a trend more towards entertainment and away from interesting or helpful threads.  That's not to say that aren't interesting or helpful topics being posted here.  I just don't see nearly as many of them as I used to, which is sad from my perspective.

Tom

 

Here 16 years as a member and I agree with Tom on his assessment.  It's evolved into more of a coffee clutch as time went by which isn't much of a draw for me.  I tend not to read or post much as I used to.  Different strokes.

[IDRick]

gregc

i am reluctant to read a lengthy 100+ post thread which may be on a topic of interest, searching to find useful nuggets of information and gotta wonder about their value.   

I personally like long threads that cover a detail topic I'm interested in.  I have lots to learn on many topics so long threads provide many useful nuggets, less so for more experienced readers.  I do stay away from debate topics such as DC versus DCC which rarely provide useful information!

[Soo Line fan]

Greg,

gregc - post #1

i am reluctant to read a lengthy 100+ post thread which may be on a topic of interest, searching to find useful nuggets of information

 

I agree with you.

I work for a car company and the team I supervise provides direction for correcting very technical repairs at our dealers.

One thing in training which is stressed is the need for clear, concise but brief web responses to our techs. Why?

Studies show the human mind will read the first part of a post and then scan through the middle and go down to the end.

At times I have to dig though 100 + previous reports to try to find a trend but I am getting paid to do so.

On my own time no way. Others may feel differently.

 

[SeeYou190]

richhotrain

Well, that is a pretty restricted time frame.

I don't know how to write data extraction code like Greg does.

-Kevin

[Overmod]

You wanted a psychologist, you got one, and now you're complaining about their answer? 

I think there will always be communities or even 'cliques' of people with particular interests who start or participate in particular threads that interest them.  Same for those who have social vs. technical interests.  The point is that the common machinery of a forum... or, before them, a BBS or even an e-mail reflector, facilitates ALL the methods of communication, and makes them available to all.  It doesn't dictate that everyone listen to every post, or agree with every activity.

As what might be a helpful note:  waaaaaay back in the days before the World Wide Web took off (and before Google and other cataloging engines were properly developed and run), there were arguments about the 'metaphor' that using the consumer Internet should take.  Some of these considered that the 'cyberspace' of '80s SF was how you'd find and interact with things; another variant used some kind of mapped community (or nested directory arranged as that -- anyone remember geocities?).  It was in this era that the metaphor of 'forum' was developed, as a virtual space, different from, say, a chatroom where every line was just added, like on the TMI incident printer, and you had to winkle out 'your' conversation from all the other effective noise, or a reflector where every new contribution went to everyone's inbox.  Think of the classic Roman forum: a defined space in which you can walk around.  There might be soapboxes with orators discussing or declaiming, or academies either with teachers or Socratic-method education, or technical libraries, or stores you could buy things from... all depending on your inclination or interest, with no requirement that you had to go through gatekeepers or pay 'dues' or have to listen to or participate in anything that didn't interest or concern you.

Perhaps that addresses gregc's original question...

[gregc]

charlie hebdo

I would prefer not to speculate why multiple/frequent responses would be disturbing to anyone.

no one suggested disturbing

gregc - post #1

i am reluctant to read a lengthy 100+ post thread which may be on a topic of interest, searching to find useful nuggets of information

[Paul3]

gregc,
Going back to your original post: yes, the popularity of the forum is about the social culture rather than the subject matter.  You could have a forum about the most popular of subjects, but if there's no social interaction and/or if there's a bad culture, the chances of it becoming busy are rather remote.

I have been a forum participant on the Model Railroader website since my very eary days online (I was on the newsgroup rec.models.railroad back in the mid-1990s).  I was in college from 1993-98 and in between classes, I would surf the web (w/ Netscape!) in the PC labs.  Back then, MR had a "Question of the Month" by Andy Sperando.  It was posted in a "Guestbook" fashion: he would write the question, and folks could answer it.  There was zero interaction.  He asked, we answered.  Andy didn't reply much if at all, and no one really interacted with each other.  It was pretty boring, and worse, you felt like your reply was never even read by anyone.  The guestbook format lasted a while, but then true forum software was still in its infancy.  There were no accounts required, you just typed in a field and hit "post".

Next, MR had a new forum that was in a terrible format.  Every single post and reply had to be clicked on to read it.  And remember this was on dial-up internet.  Imagine a thread with 30 replies - it would take perhaps 15 minutes just to read them all as it would take 30 seconds or so to load each message as the page had ads that needed to be loaded with each click.  And so many posts were just "Me, too!" or words to that effect.  Worst of all was the total lack of moderation control.  The trolls got pretty bad for a while.  Again, no accounts were required.

In early 2001, MR changed to a much better forum software that required accounts and they hired moderators to keep the signal-to-noise ratio down.  It took me about a year of lurking before deciding it was worth signing up for an account in May 2002.  And now I am still here 21 years later.

I used to average about 2 posts a week but now it's more like 1 post a month.  Why?  Well, back then my old retail job left me with a lot of downtime between customers.  Today, I'm usually too busy with work to get deeply involved on forum topics.  Zoom sessions, magazine editing, model reviews, instruction manuals; all involve me sitting in front of the computer screen for hours a day.  Pounding a keyboard for fun after work just isn't as fun as it used to be.

[BATMAN]

richhotrain

And that was my point that some forum members cannot restrain themselves from replying to a large number of threads on an ongoing basis, and those replies are not always substantive.

In the 17 years I have been around I have averaged 1.46 posts per day. Considering what little I have to offer in the expertise category, I just may be a post-hog. I had better cut back.

[charlie hebdo]

richhotrain

But, be that as it may, some forum members seem to feel a pathological obligation to respond to each and every thread, or nearly so.

Ya think?  Speaking as a Trains Forum member for years and as a clinical psychologist, I believe people participate on here if they are interested and/or enjoy the process. Threads like the Diner serve more of a social purpose. I never was interested in those on the Trains Forum so I ignored.  And that is probably what would be best on any forum: ignore those threads in which one has no interest.

I would prefer not to speculate why multiple/frequent responses would be disturbing to anyone.

[richhotrain]

SeeYou190

 

richhotrain

But, be that as it may, some forum members seem to feel a pathological obligation to respond to each and every thread, or nearly so. 

I have not seen this.

Looking over the twenty most recent threads with responses, no individual has responded to more than four of them within the past three days.

Well, that is a pretty restricted time frame. I was referring in more general terms to the number of replies to a thread and how often some screen names appears in so many of those threads. Among currently active threads with lots of replies, I quickly found two screen names that appeared in the majority of the threads. By, the way, your screen name was not one of them, Kevin.

When I posted my initial reply to this thread, I honestly had no specific screen names in mind. But, after reading your reply, I went back and clicked on certain screen names that quickly came to mind. Some of those screen names showed multiple replies per day to a variety of threads over a multi-day period.

And that was my point that some forum members cannot restrain themselves from replying to a large number of threads on an ongoing basis, and those replies are not always substantive.

Rich

 

[SeeYou190]

richhotrain

But, be that as it may, some forum members seem to feel a pathological obligation to respond to each and every thread, or nearly so.

I have not seen this.

Looking over the twenty most recent threads with responses, no individual has responded to more than four of them within the past three days.

If you don't consider my daily responses to Show Me Something and the Trackside Diner, I typically respond to only two or three threads a day, and almost never in DCC or Prototype categories. 

I also try to bundle my responses into one reply post so I don't "Post Hog".

Sure, there have been days when I have responded to the SMS and JTD five times or more, but those are social threads, and sometimes they really get moving.

Some days there are lots of threads that interest me, other days, not as many.

richhotrain

Partly to blame in my opinion is a member post count and a thread view count.

The Warseer forum assigned a "rank" based on posts. The first few levels were kind of demeaning. New members posted as often as they could to reach the rank of "knight", and then they slowed down.

That was a bad system.

-Kevin

[rrebell]

Well for some like me, I veiw this forum as if I was having a discusion at the club I used to belong to (don't say, then go to the club, like MRR hobby shops, they don't exist except far away here, they used to be everywhere). It is pointless to talk on a lot of topics on other forums about many subjects because it is hard to find people with a similar connection, like model railroading.  One first needs a topic of intrest to draw one into the conversation, sure I could go to another forum and search and search for a hook but it is very hard to find, even in topics that intrest me. Me, I like to dicuss a myrad of items in one conversation, otherwize I get bored. Yes I could talk to neigbors but we have nothing else in common but living near by. And don't say the Diner as that is just one long thread and hard to find an entry point into the conversaion, now if the Diner was broken up into sub theards, great but then it becomes a forum within a forum which would be fine but we all know that ain't gonna happen.

[gregc]

richhotrain

let me say that despite greg's best intentions to get at the conduct of the forum

i believe my intention is to present some observations about

• different forums,
• the # of posts due to the need for social interaction rather than directly addressing the threads topic,
• the usefulness/need for such a social dynamic
• the value of Diner threads, and
• to hear what others think.

one possibly conclusion is that the MR forums are more informative per post than some others

another is that the more focused threads dissuade others from participating

[richhotrain]

As a starter, let me say that despite greg's best intentions to get at the conduct of the forum and its members, this thread is predictably nothing more than a list of complaints as to how the forum is used by its members.

Truth be told, the manner in which the forum is set up, and the limitations imposed on Tom to moderate it, results in an inability to change it. Nothing said or wished for in this thread can have any effect on the conduct of the forum because the members are pretty much free to say whatever they want, how often they want.

Partly to blame in my opinion is a member post count and a thread view count. At one time, there was also a daily post count. So, for some, it was a daily contest to top the list. In my opinion, the forum would be much better off without any of these counts.

I look at my own post count. It seems astronomical, but over a 19 1/2 year period, it only amounts to 3.5 posts a day.  A lot of that activity took place in the early years of my participation in the forum as I was learning all about HO scale modeling. Later on, most of my posts took the form of replies to other's threads where I felt that I had something to offer.

But, be that as it may, some forum members seem to feel a pathological obligation to respond to each and every thread, or nearly so. My guess is that even without the post count that perceived obligation would still be in place. For others, the view count on their own threads is highly valued, but I will resist speculating as to exactly what drives the view count. It is not always what it seems.

So, let's face it. greg got it right in his initial post. The forum is as much about social interaction as it is about technical content. It is also addictive. I probably tell myself once a week that I am going to stop checking in on the forum. But, I cannot help myself. I cannot resist the possibility that something interesting will pop up, but more often than not, at least lately, I find myself annoyed.

Yeah, I know, no one is making me read these threads, so just move on. But, heck, where's the fun in that? Once annoyed, twice viewed. Inadvertently, I am adding to the view count.

Rich

[saronaterry]

selector

Thank-you, Tom, for the excellent work you have done, day in and day out.

Plus 1.

Terry

[gregc]

SeeYou190

When a question is about how to program a brand XXX DCC decoder, and all you have to say is that you will never use DCC, it detracts from the thread.

but aren't these the type of comments that result from people just trying to participate in some social activity, having no better outlet such as a Diner thread.

Do you listen, or do you just wait to talk? -- Pulp Fiction

[SeeYou190]

tommymr

What really bothers me about some of the posts are the people who have nothing to add regarding the post. For instance, "I would never buy one of those, I model only the 1920s." When the original question was "If you have an X, what do you think of it?"

I have to admit this bothers me also.

When a question is about how to program a brand XXX DCC decoder, and all you have to say is that you will never use DCC, it detracts from the thread.

-Kevin

[maxman]

selector

use the PM to coach people about how to become more influential with us and less contentional or confrontational. 

Well, that ain't gonna work.

What's option B?

[selector]

tommymr

What really bothers me about some of the posts are the people who have nothing to add regarding the post. For instance, "I would never buy one of those, I model only the 1920s." When the original question was "If you have an X, what do you think of it?" I hate plowing through nonsensical, non answers like that.  If you have no experience on the topic, you don't need to chime in. To keep topics streamlined, stuff like that needs to be moderated out.

 

When Tom, some other volunteers, and I began to push the forum toward a more friendly culture and tone about 15 years ago, it was a protracted, sometimes awful, contentious, vituperative, and vengeful process that eventually had some people banned outright.  The point is that, when Tom in Ohio had to call it a day-plus-three-hours in Ohio, I had joined at my PC on Vancouver Island, read into the moderator's forum to learn what was up, and then begun to take the pressure from Tom so he could go to bed, often after midnight. There were at least three other volunteers who came and went over the next three years.  We spelled each other off to ensure the forum was given constant, and consistent, steerage, all under the guise of Bergie, the company's sole moderator at the time. 

Tom is now the lone 'after hours guy', and he took it upon himself once again about seven years ago now, maybe more. A forum's tone and culture can shift inside of a few minutes, but we don't have the kind of moderation that it takes to run a forum any more.  Tom has done yeoman's service all by himself. 

To that end, it becomes incumbent upon the 'elders' here, especially if they find the culture shifting in an unwanted direction, to speak up, or to use the PM to coach people about how to become more influential with us and less contentional or confrontational.  If threads are drifting badly, tell the participants that the thread is being hijacked.  But, this should be the purview and the duty of the thread's originator, something that often doesn't happen for a few days until he/she pops in again. This puts the onus, in a perfect world, back onto a cadre of moderators...which we don't have.

Thank-you, Tom, for the excellent work you have done, day in and day out.  Literally, for years now.

[tommymr]

What really bothers me about some of the posts are the people who have nothing to add regarding the post. For instance, "I would never buy one of those, I model only the 1920s." When the original question was "If you have an X, what do you think of it?" I hate plowing through nonsensical, non answers like that.  If you have no experience on the topic, you don't need to chime in. To keep topics streamlined, stuff like that needs to be moderated out.

[tstage]

The MR forum software used to allow this, as well as combining threads, and was a really handy tool for the moderators.  That capability was lost a few years back when the current software started loosing functionality.

Tom

[gregc]

kasskaboose

One thing not mentioned is people steering topics in different directions.

when this happens on other forums the moderators can split the thread.   so now there are multiple threads each on its own topic.   people can participate in either or both and aren't confused about responses

[kasskaboose]

One thing not mentioned is people steering topics in different directions.  I am the 1st to admit guilt of doing it.  Sometimes, altering the topic can help encourage others to partcipate, other times its to fulfill my self-interest, or idle curiousity. 

Regardless, of reason(s) encouraging others to keep a thread alive might generate additional engagement.  There are plenty here who have a wealth of knowledge (one measurement is the long list of avatars someone made from here).  Regardless of skill or experience level, EVERYONE here has something to contribute.  Ultimately, it's up to the OP to decide how to proceed. 

Keeping things civil is paramount.  I know some like the banter about the DC/DCC thread or best way to do________.  Just do what works for you and enjoy the hobby.  Perhaps we ought to more closely emulate the approach with Pokemon cards: good luck and have fun.

[SeeYou190]

rrebell

By not letting people discuss what is going on in the world.

I strongly disagree with this. I come here to escape the real world.

Some light-hearted chatter in the diner is fine, but I agree with the list of banned topics.

To paraphrase our host... The place where Model Railroaders can go to discuss what is going on in the world is literally everywhere else on the internet.

-Kevin

[rrebell]

Part of the problem is the forum culture. By not letting people discuss what is going on in the world and their lives, it limits the participation. Management thinks they need to do something about it when a thread goes south but if it is not important to others, then the thread will just die anyway. The best way to handle trolls is to handle them, not the others that may want to discuss stuff. 

["JaBear"]

gregc

i'm curious about the willingness for people to post something, answer a quesiton which may already have been answered.  (why "waste your breath")...

Gidday Greg, my observation garnered from this forum, it’s pure and simple; they don’t bother to read the previous replies.

gregc

...and how to provide comments that penetrate through such noise

Hmm, unless you can write software that filters out the waffle, any other solution is away above my pay grade.

However, if I feel I can add value to an answer, I’ll put at least one clickable link to my information source, though I do prefer two or more sources to confirm I’m not adding to the waffle!

 

Cheers, the Bear

[Southgate 2]

In spring and summer months,  without my making it do so, my mind automatically checks out of the hobby. It just does.

Now, as I'm down, nursing a case of plantar fasciitis, I thought I'd take a look-see on the general discussion. 

To me, participation (commenting) in any topics that interest me is a part of the overall hobby which itself is entertainment. So the forum provides a place to gather and share info about the hobby. share progress, and so is part of the intertainment.

When topics turn negative or simply don't interest me, I just dismiss them. I don't see this discussion as such, or I wouldn't be commenting. 

This forum is still my only public involvement site where discussing model RRing is concerned.  Dan

[DrW]

These last posts remind me that Sheldon ("ATLANTIC CENTRAL") has last posted 4 weeks ago. It is very rare not to hear from him in such a long time. I hope everything is alright.

JW

[maxman]

gregc

i've learned to write scripts that extract useful information from gigabyte log files to debug software problems

Yes, I'm sure you did.

The issue I see is that it is hard to extract useful information from something in which no useful information exists.

[Overmod]

SeeYou190

BATMAN

Occasionally we get a self-appointed policeman that thinks the forum should operate "in his image".

I have never seen one of these, but I have only been here a few years.  Steve and Tom are the only people that I have seen police the forum.

I think he is talking about self-important posters who dictate what should and shouldn't be acceptable in this community.  Not official community 'minders'.

[gregc]

as i initially said, i am surprised by the large, often > 100 posts / thread on the MRH forum and why is it different on other forums.

i think the large number dicourages others willing to comment (at least me) and make the thread less informative because of the large # or likley repetitive or social comments

and again, i think threads such as the Diner thread are helpful to the forum because they provides a place for social discourse which keeps most threads on topic and more informative

 

i'm curious about the willingness for people to post something, answer a quesiton which may already have been answered.  (why "waste your breath") and how to provide comments that penetrate through such noise

the other metric to consider, which i didn't evaluate, is the length of the post.   some are succinct, others are verbose.

 

maxman

I am surprised that anyone would actually have the time and energy to do a survey like this.

i've learned to write scripts that extract useful information from gigabyte log files to debug software problems

[maxman]

gregc

the MR electronics forum has an average of 8.3 comments / thread.  MR protoype 13.4, MR layout 18.9.   the MR general discuss forum has 62.5, but only 22.3 if the Diner and Snow Plow threads are ignored. as mentioned, the MRH forum has 73 comments/thread. 

I am surprised that anyone would actually have the time and energy to do a survey like this.  Seems to me that there must certainly better things to do.

That said, my opinion is that the number of comments per thread is a flawed measurement of interest.

If an interesting question is posted and the first response answers the question, what does it matter if there are only a few additional comments?

And did you consider views per thread?  If a particular post generates only 10 comments but is viewed 500 times, does this not indicate that there is interest?

Or is viewing not considered participation?

[SeeYou190]

BATMAN

Occasionally we get a self-appointed policeman that thinks the forum should operate "in his image".

I have never seen one of these, but I have only been here a few years.

Steve and Tom are the only people that I have seen police the forum.

-Kevin

[BATMAN]

Randy was very kind and more importantly for me a patient educator. We exchanged many emails as he tried to help me to get my electrons moving the way they should. 

Whether it is the diner or any other thread, we have an international audience here and a vast array of personalities. Occasionally we get a self-appointed policeman that thinks the forum should operate "in his image". No one is making us read what is posted here, if a particular poster gets your back up, don't read their post, it is just that easy.

[MisterBeasley]

Don't forget that we have lost valued and knowledgeable members who shared their expertise and artistry with us.  Most of those whose names appear on the Diner's RIP Track were known to many of us, and some of them are kind of irreplaceable.  The Electronics and DCC forum was a much busier place while Randy was around, for example.

[Doughless]

gregc

the MR electronics forum has an average of 8.3 comments / thread.  MR protoype 13.4, MR layout 18.9.   the MR general discuss forum has 62.5, but only 22.3 if the Diner and Snow Plow threads are ignored. as mentioned, the MRH forum has 73 comments/thread.  i'm not sure how much these averages depend on the size of the community.

That's interesting.  I'd guess the difference is due to the size of the community.  Which is probably related to content.

It may be related to how easy it is to post pictures.  A technical thread probably benefits from images over a long string of sentences.  Thereby inviting more "how to" threads and threads with specific modeling interests to discuss.

[Doughless]

Geared Steam

 

 

tstage

 

 

 

Why can't regulars get interesting discussions going?  I think THAT would attract new members.  Talk about projects or a layout idea you're working on.  Ask questions about problems you're running into or haven't cracked yet.  Post an interesting find or question in the Prototype forum.  Review a new locomotive or piece of rolling stock you recently purchased.  Sadly, those are the threads that typically die first.

And, sadly, there are a handful of members on the more social-type threads who either mostly or exclusively post on them and nowhere else.  While that's their preogative, it seems kind of a waste to me.  Everyone has something to offer the forum community that they've gleaned through their modeling experiences on a given topic or topics - however significant or insignficant that experience may be.

I've found there is always something to learn and I don't care who I learn it from.  I'm also not shy about sharing what I've found works for me.

Tom

 

 

 

 

 Because there are a few members here that will fillibuster a good thread with their opinion(s) and not stop until everyone either gives in or just stops posting on the subject. Regardless of what many believe is useful information, is not, especially after the same infomation is posted over and over for years, so much that we already know what the next reply will say. There's a fine line between useful information, and self serving egotistical members who are not open to new ways or technology. I browse the DCC forum every now and then, but since Randy (RIP) is gone I have found less interesting subjects to engage in. 

Take it or leave it, I probably wouldnt notice if this forum disappeared tomorrow, forums have taken a backseat to other social media thats available. Thats where the new and young modelers are, not so much here.

 

Really? Those few (or is it one) poster drives you away from an entire thread, or even forum?  Since I know what they are going to say, I usually pass over the comment like I do when I read anything when I know the outcome. 

I don't watch a movie when I know how its going to end (unless I like it), but I don't stop watching movies or boycott a specific channel just because that movie is shown a lot.

I think other forums probably gather members because of the subject matter being discussed. Afterall, social media is just words on a screen and a keyboard.

I've always thought that this forum was heavily dominated by steam and transistion era interests, so I don't participate in it as much as I used to.

[Geared Steam]

tstage

 

 

 

Why can't regulars get interesting discussions going?  I think THAT would attract new members.  Talk about projects or a layout idea you're working on.  Ask questions about problems you're running into or haven't cracked yet.  Post an interesting find or question in the Prototype forum.  Review a new locomotive or piece of rolling stock you recently purchased.  Sadly, those are the threads that typically die first.

And, sadly, there are a handful of members on the more social-type threads who either mostly or exclusively post on them and nowhere else.  While that's their preogative, it seems kind of a waste to me.  Everyone has something to offer the forum community that they've gleaned through their modeling experiences on a given topic or topics - however significant or insignficant that experience may be.

I've found there is always something to learn and I don't care who I learn it from.  I'm also not shy about sharing what I've found works for me.

Tom

 

 Because there are a few members here that will fillibuster a good thread with their opinion(s) and not stop until everyone either gives in or just stops posting on the subject. Regardless of what many believe is useful information, is not, especially after the same infomation is posted over and over for years, so much that we already know what the next reply will say. There's a fine line between useful information, and self serving egotistical members who are not open to new ways or technology. I browse the DCC forum every now and then, but since Randy (RIP) is gone I have found less interesting subjects to engage in. 

Take it or leave it, I probably wouldnt notice if this forum disappeared tomorrow, forums have taken a backseat to other social media thats available. Thats where the new and young modelers are, not so much here.

[gregc]

MisterBeasley

How much of the difference between this forum and others is because of our age?

certainly there are forums that attract younger people, but my observations are about MR forums

the MR electronics forum has an average of 8.3 comments / thread.  MR protoype 13.4, MR layout 18.9.   the MR general discuss forum has 62.5, but only 22.3 if the Diner and Snow Plow threads are ignored.

as mentioned, the MRH forum has 73 comments/thread.  i'm not sure how much these averages depend on the size of the community.

it seems the more technical forums have fewer comments but unless there's a particular forum/thread (e.g. Diner) for off-topic comments, any forum may have more comments due to social interaction

 

i also particpate in the Arduino Programming Questions forum.   i think there are many retirees who particpate, possibly seeking social activity.   (i think of it as a puzzle)  many provide well focused and educational comments.    others seem to make more general suggestions without providing specifics which i'm not google wouldn't have been just as helpful.

[drgwcs]

I just have to comment this about the diner (which I mainly lurk in.) It reminds me of our railroad club. The most popular room is our club room where we just sit and talk. Half the time it's not about trains either. It's often far more popular than running trains and there are guys in there that run a train about a couple of times a year. So the diner isn't all that unusual.... 

[MidlandMike]

I followed the Trains forum for years, but didn't folow the MR forum as I was more of an armchair modeler.  Then I found myself as the moderator of a youth model railroad club.  Suddenly I had questions about the best way of attaching roadbed and track, and got them quickly answered after asking on this forum.  I now get lots of info on this forum.  I think a lot of different people get a lot of varied value from these threads and it's hard to second guess what they get out of it.

[crossthedog]

The value I get out of this forum is that when I am confronted with the next new aspect of the hobby -- first it was track planning, then benchwork, then track laying, soldering, wiring, and on and on -- I can ask how you fellas have done it (or how you wish you had done it) and I always get "actionable intelligence" pretty quickly.

The diner doesn't interest me that much, but it might if my life moved at a slower rate. The photo threads are great but I don't feel much like contributing because you've all seen my little loop a million times and until I build my town and get to creating some scenery it just doesn't seem worth sharing -- despite very gracious urgings from members to post photos anyway.

I also dip into most threads that promise to be of a how-to nature if I think that it may be an issue I might encounter someday. And I like to keep abreast of problems that people have with specific products. So for me the big draw is the availability of several centuries' worth of combined modelling experience.

-Matt 

[MisterBeasley]

How much of the difference between this forum and others is because of our age?  I think we're still learning social skills as we get older, skills that many in the younger generation,  despite their computer literacy have not yet mastered.

It took a while for me to get into the "social" aspects of the Diner, but now, I spend as much time there as anywhere.  I think the other threads have become slower and less popular over the years, but I still read many just to see what people are up to.  I still contribute occasionally,  although I haven't bought anything new in a lot of years and my knowledge base, once pretty good, is no longer up to date.

[Lone Wolf and Santa Fe]

My main activity here is looking at pictures of people's models and layouts. That has always been one of the things that attracted me to model railroading in the first place. I am far more interested in the models than in real life railroading. So keep posting about your layouts and your models. I would like to see more of them posted here.

[Doughless]

SeeYou190

DC wiring and control. Detail painting and figure painting. Craftsman kit and scratchbuilt structures. Benchwork construction. Scenery. Crazy character-filled models with no prototype at all.

I think your comment speaks to some of the reasons for a changing culture.  Most of what you listed was pretty common tasks 20 years ago.  Now, tasks seem to be more specific.

With RTR models and specific details, the generic..."how do I add grab irons to a diesel locomotive" doesn't get asked much anymore.  Common questions have been balkanized into a bunch of niche questions...and therefore less popular as a whole.   

And more variety of everything, with people settling into methods that are not as universally common as before.  A question about operating trains could cover DC to Arduino......separating into a bunch of niche topics.

When I look at the front page of the General Discussions section, its usually a lot of niche type of threads, many of which I'm not interested in.

If there was a discussion about the best way to add FRA stripes to turn a circa 2005 car into something more appropriate for 2015, I'd probably participate in that thread.  Very niche though.

[SeeYou190]

On most of the newer threads about model railroading I have not had much to add to the conversation.

My areas of experience are:

N scale 30 years ago.

DC wiring and control.

Detail painting and figure painting.

Craftsman kit and scratchbuilt structures.

Benchwork construction.

Scenery.

Crazy character-filled models with no prototype at all.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

I am no good at track planning, I am not fluent in anything DCC related, and I do not understand signalling.

I try to only post answers based on real experience and what I have learned from actually building things. I shy away from theoretical discussions.

I like to share pictures of what I have done even though my modelling is not as good as others that share. The environment of shared modelling is one of my favorite features of this forum.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

I lurked on this forum for some time before I joined to ask a question regarding a particular prototype practice.

I did not lurk here long before I joined.

However, I have been lurking on a photography forum for over a decade learning and harvesting ideas and techniques.

I do not have anywhere near enough experience or ability to contribute to that group.

-Kevin

[dknelson]

When the whole idea of the Kalmbach trains Forums (and similar forums) was bright and new, it was pretty exciting because of the speed with which a question or a topic could generate comment, pictures, tutorials, interesting links.  It was being compared to the ponderous speed of the magazine world where January's question finally got a response in April.  That was also a time when the internet it self was still a novelty and there were train enthusiasts and modelers who spent huge amounts of time posting information that otherwise would be almost impossible to track down.

Now it is old hat and we are getting jaded.  So there is not much use wishing it would be like it used to be, because the whole environment has changed.

Now there was of course a downside to that early era.  There were certain immature individuals who found that if they posted naughty words on a Friday evening they wouldn't get taken down until Monday morning.  That was very tiresome.  Those sorts of people now have, shall we say, other outlets for their adolescent enthusiasms.  

And certain habits of mind -- I guess you could call it Forum Culture -- got started early on and have lasted a long time.   There was and sometimes still is excessive vehemence if in some way the "unwritten rules" are violated.  At one time people would get pounced on if they asked a question or posted a topic that had already been covered.  Maybe that made sense when the Forums were new and that prior post was just months ago.  Now that this forum has tens of thousands of topics, and over two decades of postings, it gets harder and harder to find out if it is new or not, but that is still a pounceable offense it seems.  I think this created a fear of posting anything unfortunately.

Another pounceable offense was reviving an old thread even if it meant making that thread a more complete and more accurate discussion of the topic at hand.  There seems to be less fury about reviving old threads these days but not so long ago, it was cause for public shaming.  Again the result was to create still another needless fear about posting.

And most ironic of all is that those two punishable offenses contradict each other.  If you say, don't start a new thread when one already exists but then also say, don't add to an existing thread if it is old enough to constitute a revival, instead start a new thread .....  well -- OK, now what?  

Dave Nelson

[Doughless]

York1

 

 

tstage

And, sadly, there are a handful of members on the more social-type threads who either mostly or exclusively post on them and nowhere else.  While that's their preogative, it seems kind of a waste to me. 

 

 

 

Again, I guess this would be about me and several others.  I post mainly in the Diner on topics not related to railroading.  Occasionally I post on other threads when I feel like I can contribute, but that's not often.

I had never considered that the Diner could bother some people.  Sorry about that.  I appreciate the Diner for the friends I've made there.

 

FWIW, when I read the Diner, I think you post more railroady things than many of the regulars.

But I don't think the OP is talking about the Diner per se...one thread devoted to more nonrailroady topics.

I think he's probably commenting on the fact that the Diner thread is always by far the most populated thread, which is indicative of the forum's culture as a whole.  The lack of other popular threads more MR related.  Just my opinion of what his opinion is, in a nutshell.

[York1]

tstage

And, sadly, there are a handful of members on the more social-type threads who either mostly or exclusively post on them and nowhere else.  While that's their preogative, it seems kind of a waste to me. 

 

Again, I guess this would be about me and several others.  I post mainly in the Diner on topics not related to railroading.  Occasionally I post on other threads when I feel like I can contribute, but that's not often.

I had never considered that the Diner could bother some people.  Sorry about that.  I appreciate the Diner for the friends I've made there.

["JaBear"]

I have from time to time, whilst browsing other forums, read that some consider this forum is for beginners, and also tolerates oddballs who don’t take the hobby seriously enough! If that is the case, I’m not at all sure where I fit in the scheme of things! Anyhow,“sticks and stones…” 

 

One thing I haven’t managed to figure out though is the members of this forum who will readily spring to print criticising “The Diner,” and other “social topics” which pop up from time to time, that to their reasoning detract from the forum. It’s a similar situation to like those ffolkes who complain about TV programmes, yet don’t realise that they have control of the “Off switch”! 

 

I should ask my psychologist daughter the whys and wherefores, but personally think some ffolkess aren’t happy unless they have something to whinge about, especially if other ffolkes are enjoying themselves.

gregc

...i wonder if the popularity of a forum more about the social interaction and culture than the topic of the forum

I lurked on this forum for some time before I joined to ask a question regarding a particular prototype practice. To which I did receive satisfactory replies, and as a result have stuck around learning more, making some hopefully useful contributions, and freely acknowledging that I have made some contributions that are not!

  

The social interaction was an unexpected, yet satisfying bonus.

 

¼ Cheers, the Bear.

[tstage]

SeeYou190

New people get the intersting discussions going.

Why can't regulars get interesting discussions going?  I think THAT would attract new members.  Talk about projects or a layout idea you're working on.  Ask questions about problems you're running into or haven't cracked yet.  Post an interesting find or question in the Prototype forum.  Review a new locomotive or piece of rolling stock you recently purchased.  Sadly, those are the threads that typically die first.

And, sadly, there are a handful of members on the more social-type threads who either mostly or exclusively post on them and nowhere else.  While that's their preogative, it seems kind of a waste to me.  Everyone has something to offer the forum community that they've gleaned through their modeling experiences on a given topic or topics - however significant or insignficant that experience may be.

I've found there is always something to learn and I don't care who I learn it from.  I'm also not shy about sharing what I've found works for me.

Tom

[kasskaboose]

I worry here what a shrink would say about the comments posted here. 

[York1]

maxman

Could be that they didn't like what was on the menu, or starved to death on the imaginary food.

 

How could anyone starve to death on the unlimited bacon, eggs, and beer, especially since it's free everytime the page changes?

[maxman]

BATMAN

The clientele in the diner has changed a lot over the years and there have been some interesting people in there. I use to exchange PMs with several of them in years gone by. The numbers have dwindled to almost nothing,

Could be that they didn't like what was on the menu, or starved to death on the imaginary food.

[nealknows]

@Greg, I'm on both forums. Yes, there are many posts on here and the other one that can have many replies. I'm usually on them in the morning and evening, unless I'm sitting at my desk doing other things, then I'll peek again. 

For the most part I'll read the threads that I have an interest in or something that is different. As long as the people reply stay on topic, I'll keep reading. However, when it goes off topic or people talk about 'other things', then I'll stop reading.

Since the owners of the forum have made it more difficult to communicate amongst the members, I think that's where some of the 'socializing' comes out in the forums. 

Now I will say I've been guilty of this, and it's when Amhearst Train Show in January gets close. Then I ask who is going and tell them if they have time to stop by where I will be for the show. No naming of the booth, just the location, so the moderators can't say I'm advertising. 

@Kevin, I agree that we not only need new modelers on the forum, but we need to let these people ask their questions even if someone asked about it years ago. In addition, I think we need to stop telling these people their first couple posts are being moderated. That's the moderators job, and those who make that comment, IMO make them feel superior to the ones posting a question. We don't know if the poster is a true newbie and a youngster, or a seasoned modeler joining the forum so he can learn more. 

Many people who are not computer literate finally join the forums for many reasons. They probably still have a flip phone for a cell phone. Whatever they are, they are now here. Let's not scare them off from the beginning. 

So let's hear from those beginners or new folks with your thoughts and questions. That's what we're here for, right? 

Neal

[BATMAN]

SeeYou190

 

 

AEP528

I can't be the only person who has noticed that the longest posts on this forum, and the ones with the most personal information, are from people who proudly state they've moved far away from urban areas and value their isolation.

 

 

Yes. I have wondered often if these posters are actually just trying to convince themselves of something rather than have an audience for their thoughts.

What good is having it all if no one sees it... I know... I'll talk about it over and over on a choo-choo forum.

 

This sounds like a couple of schoolgirls out on the playground gossiping about who is saying what. When I joined the forum 17 years ago the diner was a thriving place where you went to talk about your day. Now I see that people have opinions on what is being said and rather than not read it, complain about it. The clientele in the diner has changed a lot over the years and there have been some interesting people in there. I use to exchange PMs with several of them in years gone by. The numbers have dwindled to almost nothing, maybe it is because all of a sudden they are being judged on what they say. 

 

York1

 

 

AEP528

I can't be the only person who has noticed that the longest posts on this forum, and the ones with the most personal information, are from people who proudly state they've moved far away from urban areas and value their isolation.

 

 

 

That may, in part, refer to me.  I moved from an inner city to a rural area.  However, my reason was my three daughters, who were going into high school.

I actually have more close personal friends in this rural area than I did in the large city.

 

They are probably referring to me John....or both of us. You keep on posting and I'll keep on reading about your day(s) Though for how long I am not sure, the last thing I want to do is add stress to someone's life by seemingly making them read things they are free not to read.

[BigDaddy]

One of the reasons I joined the forum was; I was a DCC newbie, in fact I hadn't decided on DCC for sure.  Since I participate in the Diner, I have to admit it's a social experience there. 

I have no interest in posts about favorite train movies, TV or songs.  Maybe there should be an off topic subforum.

I belong to a couple of forums on groups.io and I am surprised when a newbie asks a really basic MR Question, but OT to the group, that people will rush to shout OT when a simple answer would help the OP.

[York1]

AEP528

I can't be the only person who has noticed that the longest posts on this forum, and the ones with the most personal information, are from people who proudly state they've moved far away from urban areas and value their isolation.

 

That may, in part, refer to me.  I moved from an inner city to a rural area.  However, my reason was my three daughters, who were going into high school.

I actually have more close personal friends in this rural area than I did in the large city.

[SeeYou190]

AEP528

I can't be the only person who has noticed that the longest posts on this forum, and the ones with the most personal information, are from people who proudly state they've moved far away from urban areas and value their isolation.

Yes. I have wondered often if these posters are actually just trying to convince themselves of something rather than have an audience for their thoughts.

What good is having it all if no one sees it... I know... I'll talk about it over and over on a choo-choo forum.

  

tstage

I've seen a trend more towards entertainment and away from interesting or helpful threads.  That's not to say that aren't interesting or helpful topics being posted here.

We need new blood and beginners.

When I started in here, about once ever two months some newbie would post a question about kadee couplers. The first few responses were always like "here we go again", or "why can't you use the search function".

We need to be more careful about responses to newbie posts. Just welcome them and answer the question. Don't suggest they are doing it all wrong, suggest something beyond their skills, or give them a too technical answer.

New people get the intersting discussions going.

-Kevin

[Overmod]

We had some of these discussions regarding the 'policies and procedures' for the old steam_tech egroup, before Melissa came along and ruined things.

Kurt Greske, a self-proclaimed 'curmudgeon', noted the approach taken by the Ampex (tape-recorder) enthusiasts: their list was wild and free-wheeling, 'moderated' only by the self-control of its participants.  This worked admirably in the early days of BBS and reflectors, where the only participants were people in 'the confraternity'... and adult enough both to engage in humor and deal with those who abused the privilege.

We also consciously decided to preserve 'free speech' in posting, but also accommodate the (many) participants interested only in hard steam technology and disinterested in off-topic discussion even of associated railroading -- and in the olden days might be on dial-up connections unable to deal with people who didn't snip their posts correctly.  We dealt with this by convention -- in the subject line we put OT for off-topic subjects, and YAK for material not related either to steam technology or railroading.  This was a compromise, but to me infinitely preferable to, say, Ben Hom's PRR list, or the current B&O discussion group, where any off-topic thread is remorselessly deleted as soon as the eagle-eyed dictators spot it, usually with a caustic comment that it strayed outside the pale (note that this included, for PRR, any discussion of Penn Central as being 'off-topic'...)

You cannot rely on that today.  Something that goes unremarked is the number of spam or insincere postings that the Kalmbach moderation has to deal with each day.  We had to use mandatory initial moderation since there were a few people who actually researched steam enough to make a few credible posts before hitting the spam.  We also had quite a community of sweet young things from Cebu City in the Phillipines that I suspected were far less interested in the technology of locomotives than other things.  Deciding what to keep and what to ban involves -- and ought to involve -- careful herding of the cats who are active participants as well as 'lurkers'.

We did not have a Mike on steam_tech, like one of those 'edgy' people recently mentioned in connection with a certain high-priced cab ride auction, although we certainly had a bunch of Europeans with poor opinions on American steam practice and other things.  It's a difficult thing to balance freedom of expression with things that some users find extremely distracting if not inflammatory.  Different communities will handle that in different ways... or neglect it as expedient.

I certainly think that over the years the Kalmbach forum system has been very successful in weeding out a fairly wide range of participants.  In fact one moderator, who shall remain nameless, actually managed to get me to quit posting for a few years, and I wonder how many others just left and gave up.

[tstage]

gregc

i wonder if some forums are more for entertainment than information.

Greg,

I think in the nearly 20 years that I've belonged to this forum, I've seen a trend more towards entertainment and away from interesting or helpful threads.  That's not to say that aren't interesting or helpful topics being posted here.  I just don't see nearly as many of them as I used to, which is sad from my perspective.

Tom

[AEP528]

I can't be the only person who has noticed that the longest posts on this forum, and the ones with the most personal information, are from people who proudly state they've moved far away from urban areas and value their isolation.