richhotrain PRR8259 Hi Rich-- I wrote what I wrote to clarify for the uninformed, that's all. Happy Thanksgiving! John And to you, John. I am just feeling hostile this morning watching a dead bird being shoved into the oven. Rich
PRR8259 Hi Rich-- I wrote what I wrote to clarify for the uninformed, that's all. Happy Thanksgiving! John
Hi Rich--
I wrote what I wrote to clarify for the uninformed, that's all.
Happy Thanksgiving!
John
And to you, John. I am just feeling hostile this morning watching a dead bird being shoved into the oven.
Rich
I'm eating ham thank you.
I'm sure my DC system and the lack of a decoder has EVERYTHING to do with it.
First, I use a DC system within the voltage parameters set by the "old" NMRA standards.
Without trying to get into a long technical electrical engineering analysis, I think the combination of the factory lighting board and the output from the decoder for lighting, was simply on the edge of too much voltage. Combined with the fact that different DCC systems, and different booster setups, run, or can be run at various voltages.
And lets not forget that the DCC "signal" carrier voltage is not really AC or DC, in their pure sense. That can effect how voltages are seen by various components.
Prime example, I use the Train Engineer radio throttles. They are high frequency PWM like the motor control from a decoder. DC lighting circuits for constant brightness and directional lighting see the smallest throttle setting as nearly full voltage - because the pulses are full voltage.
The result, lights come on full brighness long before the loco moves in nearly all cases. Just like switching them on in DCC but without the extra button to push
I prefer LED's but I'm not fixing things that are not broke, so my older Athearn and Bachmann locos with incandesent lamps are just fine.
Sheldon
I have a few BLI locomotives. E8A/B set Amtrak Phase I and F3 A/B set with a individual F3A NYC full lightning strike.
Although I don't have problems with them yet, because no layout but had a test run with them.
I'm that kind of person who doesn't like grab irons, lift rings and other etc on locomotives because it be easier to break.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
I only have one AThearn RTR loco with bulbs, it has 4 of them 2 in each end, none have burned out yet on DCC. But it just stands to reason that running full power 100% of the time like the do on DCC is going to shorten the life vs running most of the time at 50% or less when using DC.
A bigger problem is locos that have higher voltage, higher watt bulbs in them. On DC< at 50% most of the time, they don;t get warm. But DCC is full power all the time. They can get hot enough to melt the plastic around the headlight.
This isn;t a new thing - when they came out with high frequency lighting, they had the same problem. Full voltage to the bulb, 100% of the time. The only saving grace 60+ years ago was that mmany times the headlight casting, if not the whole loco shell, were metal, so it wouldn't melt.
BLI has far too much invested in their proprietary decoders to switch. ANd apparantly the cost for repairs and the cost in customer retention has not exceeded the cost of switching to something else. Remember they started out using a third party decoder, but QSI was slow in updating and took forever to release a new version decoder. And now they have Rolling Thunder witht he wireless broadcast of the low frequency sounds from the decoder to a stationary subwoofer. They's have to share that with some other decoder manufacturer to add it, so the BLI version of say an ESU decoder would stil be proprietary and not a standard decoder. Given that no other decoder manufacturer has thus far (at least publically) attempted to create a competetive system to Rolling Thunder, it would appear they are uninsterested or think it not worth the effort to design for limited sales, so it's not likely any would be interested in licensing it from BLI and incorporating it in their full line of decoders.
I do think BLI could sell a lot more locos if they offered DC only versions with a stadnard plug for a decoder. Not only the DC die hards, but more DCC users would buy them. Their locos aren't poorly made, and they've done some things that are otherwise only available in brass. The problems are almost always with the decoders.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Alton Junction
Happy Thanksgiving to all!
PRR8259 Why...Athearn...incandescent bulbs? Athearn switched to LED lights in the most recent releases, going back almost 2 years now.
Why...Athearn...incandescent bulbs?
Athearn switched to LED lights in the most recent releases, going back almost 2 years now.
Athearn switched to LED lights in the most recent releases, going back almost 2 years now. Both Genesis units and Ready-to-Roll units (SD-60's and Sound Value series SD40/SD40U's) started coming in with LED lights.
Marketing people have sales target prices that they want to hit. Some manufacturers choose or chose to cut certain corners to hit those marketing target prices. Beyond that, I have no idea. However, they are LED now.
Always read the fine print with new releases.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Why has Athearn for years and years installed crappy incandescent bulbs in their locos that burn out within hours of being placed on the layout? Rich I agree that was a problem, a problem I think they have finally fixed. But interestingly, none of those crappy incandescent bulbs have burned out on my layout, powered by 13.8 volts DC thru the factory lighting board. So yes there was some sort of design disconnect between the lighting board, the lamps and the decoders. Sheldon
richhotrain Why has Athearn for years and years installed crappy incandescent bulbs in their locos that burn out within hours of being placed on the layout? Rich
Why has Athearn for years and years installed crappy incandescent bulbs in their locos that burn out within hours of being placed on the layout?
I agree that was a problem, a problem I think they have finally fixed.
But interestingly, none of those crappy incandescent bulbs have burned out on my layout, powered by 13.8 volts DC thru the factory lighting board.
So yes there was some sort of design disconnect between the lighting board, the lamps and the decoders.
wvg_cait's just a whole lot easier [for me] to NOT even consider BLI locomotives as part of my roster .
Same here.
Mike.
My You Tube
it's just a whole lot easier [for me] to NOT even consider BLI locomotives as part of my roster ...
i don't need the extra grief, and beleive me, it's there. lol
Look, I was quick to criticize the P3 decoders on these forums this spring when my son's brand new BLI P3 UP 3985 4-6-6-4 failed right away, within a week. However, Seneca at Train Service Depot had the engine repaired and back in my hands in about two weeks flat and in perfect condition without any marks on it. A new upgraded motor (obtained directly from BLI) and the new upgraded P3 decoder (also from BLI) have the engine running as well as any I have ever owned or even seen in my life. We also bypassed the repair backlog! I will put that engine up against anybody's brass articulated, too, or any other model, for performance with a long train behind it.
BLI has already upgraded both the P3 decoder AND the motor. The new motor has much much more torque. There is nothing wrong with them now. Some early P3 engines on the market may require the new decoder and the motor. They will replace them for free.
Also, decoder and motor problems are NOT unique to BLI. The Rapido sound module or motherboard is currently killing motors in some of their engines at too high a rate. I have both good filtered plain dc power and the NCE Powercab dcc. My solution has been to only run Rapido diesels in plain dc. For me they have not fried any (more) boards or motors since I stopped running them in dcc. Also Rapido is advertising that new engines coming next have the upgraded motor.
I should point out that the Rapido plain dc units with the previous motor are outperforming my Atlas diesels. The Rapido engines are quieter with slightly more torque and pulling power than my latest run Atlas C-420. I just acquired a mint 2003 run (from when Atlas was arguably the best) Atlas C-425. It is the quietest diesel I have, but the Rapido RS-11 pulls better, and the Rapido B36-7 pulls notably better. So in plain dc, if you get through the first 2 hours without incident, the Rapido diesels appear to be just fine. Failures if they happen tend to happen right away. No plain dc units have failed for me out of 7 purchased this fall, but others have had a few fail.
I will close by saying that everybody has had recent motor issues. Just a couple years ago Atlas, Bowser, and Intermountain ALL had to replace their motors. They share one factory together and were all using the same or virtually the same motors. Fortunately the weak motors, which can run ok (they lack some torque and won't pull as well), were limited to a few product runs. The newer engines run much better. Also the increased features that so many people want are causing the electronic bugs. A motor that is great in plain dc I am told may not be once a decoder and motherboard or sound module are added. A different specification motor may be required for dcc/sound operation.
Refer to the Atlas Rescue Forum for more detailed motor test results that were and still are being posted by llxlocomotives. He is testing several currently, both vintage and current production. He installs them in test diesels to get consistent results on a layout.
I have 7 Broadway steam locos, I have 35 Bachmann/Spectrum steam locos.
I run DC, and have removed all the decoders........
And even at that I have had more problems with Broadway locos than with Bachmann locos.........
Kevin is right, why can't they make them easily convertible to DC like all my Bachmann locos were?
You mat consider it a big selection, but it is mostly a big selection of BIG, rare, flashy, "famous" locos.
I want a believable roster of locos for my railroad, that's why only a few Broadway locos fit the bill.
FWIW, I have yet to get a QSI to fail on me. I have had one decoder fail in all the time I have been in the hobby, and that was a LokSound in a PCM Y6b. Of all the QSI decoders I own, at least five were placed into locomotives prior to 2005.
It would be very frustrating to have so many decoder failures, both for the customer and for BLI. I'm sure BLI is doing what they can now that they're getting back so many locos (the real percentage of returns is going to remain a mystery. It might be small.). My hope is that they get a grip soon. I haven't been impressed with some of the sound files on the P2 and P2 issues. The sounds are of good quality, though, and the motion control is very good.
Engi1487So, what is this suppose to mean?
Maybe the Ford Pinto fiasco was before your time. Read the article. Ford knew of their defective design and weighed the options of redesigning and recalling the cars to eliminate (or reduce) the hazard or "roll the dice" and deal with the fall out.
I posted that link to make a comparison to BLI sticking with their design (I seem to recall they bought a QSI licence or maybe even bought the patents from QSI?) and they're dealing with the fallout. They DO have an investment to recoup and buying what is, essentially, a competitors decoder to install in their locomotives will not make their bottom line and already thin margin look any better.
I recently went through a decoder issue with a brand new PRR K4. The tech assured me that Version H, has all new motor control architecture and the programming problems are gone for good.
I said that may be true but I sure have a lemon here. They sent a replacement and it acted the very same way. IF I reset the decoder it runs fine on address 3.
IF I put the engine number in (or any four-digit address) as the address the motor control gets completely scrambled. I've had this problem with 8 out of the last 12 Paragon3 decoders.
The pickup was awful on the last several BLI engines I bought as well. Engines would stop dead at any given time, usually, but not always at a turnout that I've tested to be fully powered. Tech said he never heard of that problem. Quite a few reviews I've read mention the same issue. BLI has added a keep alive and socket on the newest version of their P3 decoders and they now offer their "GO Pack" capacitor bundle.
I don't think they're about to scrap their Paragon line but I DO believe they had better redesign from the ground up. These issues have made me think twice before I'll buy any more of their Paragon3 engines.
Good Luck, Ed
Why doesn't BLI use better connectors bewteen the engines and tenders?
Why doesn't BLI make wiring information available to the end user for the asking so they can remove the decoder easily?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
gmpullman https://www.autosafety.org/ford-pinto-fuel-tank/ Cheers, Ed
https://www.autosafety.org/ford-pinto-fuel-tank/
Cheers, Ed
I really do love Broadway Limited Imports large variety of HO scale steam locomotives they have made, and continue to make. While they are well designed in terms of their gearing and detail, their own name of decoders, being called Paragon, seem to be lacking in functionality, as I have been told Paragon 2 is somewhat better then Paragon 3.Its not problem installing a better decoder, but I wonder why BLI has not considered turning to use a better decoder, such as Lokisound or Tusmami 2. If they did, they would not have to deal with negative decoder reviews, various complaints and having the same locomotives they sent out to paying customers, come back for repairs. Altough the later does keep their repair workers in need.Maybe its because its a risk for BLI to move to upgrading their decoders from their own brand, as they have already estabished it as a part of their brand?