richhotrain I am going to cast my vote for BLI as an excellent manufacturer of steam locomotives. As I look at my steam roster, most of my steamers are BLI with two Proto Heritage and one Bachman Spectrum. At one time, I had a lot of Bachmann Spectrum steamers, but I dumped them all on eBay, as I considered them inferior to BLI. My BLI roster is mostly Paragon with a few Paragon 2 locos mixed in. I have avoided Paragon 3 because of the reported decoder problems. Rich
I am going to cast my vote for BLI as an excellent manufacturer of steam locomotives.
As I look at my steam roster, most of my steamers are BLI with two Proto Heritage and one Bachman Spectrum. At one time, I had a lot of Bachmann Spectrum steamers, but I dumped them all on eBay, as I considered them inferior to BLI.
My BLI roster is mostly Paragon with a few Paragon 2 locos mixed in. I have avoided Paragon 3 because of the reported decoder problems.
Rich
So I would be interested to know which models you have and why they appeal to you, quality issues, good or bad aside.
I understand you are primarily modeling a multi railroad passenger terminal and that would require a different mix compared to my modeling which only includes three interchanges with roads otger than my ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
Sheldon
Alton Junction
PRR8259Now, my friends keep accumulating trains but don't have much--or in some cases any--layout at all.
That's what I consider when I hear of people buying locomotives and never taking them out of the box. Someday in the future when these engines finally get to touch live rail will BLI still be around to honor the warranty or will there be parts to repair them?
How many hot motors or bad decoders are sitting in someone's closet that won't be discovered as faulty for another decade or two?
Regards, Ed
The hobby is changing whether we like it or not. Twenty years ago, my friends at the time all had layouts with scenery, and one even had a feature article about his layout published in MR.
Now, my friends keep accumulating trains but don't have much--or in some cases any--layout at all. I actually have a layout with very basic desert scenery (cat ate other scenery), and I invite them over to run their trains whenever they feel like it. The one's main layout is O-gauge and all he did is roll out the green mat and plop some nice pre-assembled buildings on it. That is the extent of his scenery.
You would not believe the amount of money I'm seeing the younger guys spending at the train store. In the area where I live, the Lionel stuff is still selling like hotcakes. There is a good following for Lionel. In HO, all the Heritage NS units sold very well--all the store could get their hands on--just sold and sold.
People are coming in and buying the latest greatest thing in diesel, but they also want the big steam power. They just buy whatever they like, so yeah, they're just collectors, but they are the ones spending a lot of money, and way more than me.
I think trying to focus on just one railroad is making me the dinosaur.
John
I would not doubt that Bachmann sold as many or more USRA Mountains than BLI sold Big Boys - but BLI is competing with 6 or 7 others ALSO selling Big Boys. I'd bet the total number of Big Boys sold overall by everyone offering them exceeds the sames of Bachmann's USRA Maountain. And few if any of those Big Bioy purchases have 40"+ radius curves needed to make a Big Boy look remotely close to prototypical. But they all make them with 18" )and sometimes 22") radius as a design minimum. Too many compromises.
The larger scale ones are worse - I recently saay James Wright's review of the Lionel O 3-rail Big Boy. I'm assuming the layout he ran it on was using standard O-31 curves - holy boiler overhang! And then he had it running with full length UP passenger cars (the Lionel model is 4014 of course, so he had a train set up to resemble what 4014 was pulling). Not only did the boiler swing out insanely far (as expected, O-31 curves are 31" DIAMETER, about the same as 15" radius HO!) but the passenger cars were INSIDE the inner rail on curves. OK, some people don't care about that, and hi-rail is a completely different market, but the loco is pretty well detailed and then runs on such tight curves and looks like a true toy. But an HO Big Boy running on 18 or 22" radius curves doesn't look much better. But that doesn't stop anyone, as long as it runs.
What we had when I was a kid wasn;t much better - heck, we even had TYCO railroad locos. And then Santa Fe, NYC, V&T locos. Couple of B&O. It was all Tyco, Life Like, and some AHM models. It's what we could afford.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A few points I missed:
Yes, a BLI brass hybrid is a step above anything Bachmann has done. And I would buy one and remove the decoder in a hot New York second. And I might just spring for a C&O J3a.
But by comparison, the Spectrum B&O EM-1 is better than most of the brass ones that have ever been done. And I model the B&O, and my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL is a road that logically would have had that kind of power.
Adding weight? My two BLI/PCM Reading T-1's did benefit from some extra weight, more for balance than traction, to fill up the big hole in the smokebox left open for the future smoke unit........
Don't take me wrong on this, most BLI steam is very nice except for these decoder problems you here about. But I don't want DCC and sound, good decoder or bad decoder.
And they are not picking locos I have any need for or interest in for the most part.
I have said this before about BLI, MTH, Atlas, KATO - it does not matter how good they are if they do not make something you want to model.
I am not adjusting my modeling interests around the offerings of a few brands deemed to be "better".
Especially not at a time like this in this hobby when there has been so much exceptional products from most brands in the last 15-20 years.
I remember a time before all these great products, when we were happy to detail an Athearn F7 and get it running smooth, or build a Bowser or Mantua steam loco and add some brass detail parts.
If you have only been in this hobby, or on this planet, for the last 20 years, you are spoiled by these great products. I know locomotive wise, I would never want to go back to pre 1990's.
Again happy to have all this great product, from all the brands.
gmpullmanTry going to GM or Ford and telling them you want a car with standard shift, no AC, crank windows and just an AM radio. Ain't gonna happen.
I got extemely lucky with my 2008 Colorado. Standard shift, crank windows, AM/FM radio. It does have A/C, this is Florida!
It was special ordered as a commercial truck for an auto parts jobber, but they went out of business, so I was able to buy a commercial version of the truck that was supposed to be fleet sale only.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Trainman440 ATLANTIC CENTRAL John and Charles, I don't expect anything special from any manufacturer. The point is simple, if the they (any of them) make a product I am interested in, at a price and quality balance I am happy with, I will spend my money. In 20 years, regarding steam, Bachmann has done a better job than Broadway as it relates to me. There is no difference mechanically or detail wise that I can see between my 1st run N&W Class A and my BlueLine Class A. Just different electronics......which I removed. I still think the manufacturers could solve this by simply making the full featured locos easily backwards convertable to silent DC. I suspect Bachmann is doing larger runs, but still, tooling a Delta trailing truck, making different tender trucks, moving a headlight? Come on now. And everyone can say what they want about the popularity of all the big, famous, flashy locos, but here is my question: Bachmann sold me 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, not just one Big Boy. They sold me 10 2-8-0's, not just one Challenger. They sold me 5 2-6-6-2's, not just one N&W Y6b. They sold me 5 2-8-4's, not just one brass hybrid C&O J3a. Who made more money??????? Others commented that they will not buy BLI, I simply said little in their line is of interest, and what is, I mostly already have - bought cheap and rewired as needed. Sheldon Precisely. As I was saying, Im not supporting BLI's choice of not selling DCC ready engines, just stating why they would do such a thing. What you said here is exactly what I was thinking. And expecting BLI to produce engines of less prominance just isnt likely. Bachmann (a large company that has US, UK, and Chinese branches) gets away with doing it by producing them in large quantities, painting them in all sorts of fantasy schemes, and having prices set to attract more beginner modelers, who likely dont have a prototype chosen. BLI attracts a (somewhat) more experienced modeler base, who demand more realism. For example, Bachmann's ICRR based 2-8-0 engine sold thousands. They made it in over 15 paint schemes.* Ive had 8 of those alone at one point. Compare that to the (arguably) far less popular BLI fantasy 2-8-0 (from a modified H10s), which sales are pale in comparison. BLI likely took this, and realized that they will never make as much money making fantasy engines for the prices they charge as much as Bachmann can. Their fanbases/customers are simply different. Also, Id argue BLI definently has better models than Bachmann. Bachmann engines rarely have bearings, drivers rarely sprung, often have those super orange LEDs(personal preference), need additional weight, have their crappy decoders(doesnt apply to you Im aware), often uses outdated dies and molds, etc. BLI may cost more, but besides the decoders, are otherwise very well built. But that's personal opinion. Charles *(ATSF, Sou green, Sou black, WM, B&O, Rock Is, UP, SP, WP,N&W, Maine Cen, BLW, PRR, NYC, Durango & Silv)
ATLANTIC CENTRAL John and Charles, I don't expect anything special from any manufacturer. The point is simple, if the they (any of them) make a product I am interested in, at a price and quality balance I am happy with, I will spend my money. In 20 years, regarding steam, Bachmann has done a better job than Broadway as it relates to me. There is no difference mechanically or detail wise that I can see between my 1st run N&W Class A and my BlueLine Class A. Just different electronics......which I removed. I still think the manufacturers could solve this by simply making the full featured locos easily backwards convertable to silent DC. I suspect Bachmann is doing larger runs, but still, tooling a Delta trailing truck, making different tender trucks, moving a headlight? Come on now. And everyone can say what they want about the popularity of all the big, famous, flashy locos, but here is my question: Bachmann sold me 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, not just one Big Boy. They sold me 10 2-8-0's, not just one Challenger. They sold me 5 2-6-6-2's, not just one N&W Y6b. They sold me 5 2-8-4's, not just one brass hybrid C&O J3a. Who made more money??????? Others commented that they will not buy BLI, I simply said little in their line is of interest, and what is, I mostly already have - bought cheap and rewired as needed. Sheldon
John and Charles,
I don't expect anything special from any manufacturer. The point is simple, if the they (any of them) make a product I am interested in, at a price and quality balance I am happy with, I will spend my money.
In 20 years, regarding steam, Bachmann has done a better job than Broadway as it relates to me.
There is no difference mechanically or detail wise that I can see between my 1st run N&W Class A and my BlueLine Class A. Just different electronics......which I removed.
I still think the manufacturers could solve this by simply making the full featured locos easily backwards convertable to silent DC.
I suspect Bachmann is doing larger runs, but still, tooling a Delta trailing truck, making different tender trucks, moving a headlight? Come on now.
And everyone can say what they want about the popularity of all the big, famous, flashy locos, but here is my question:
Bachmann sold me 10 USRA Heavy Mountains, not just one Big Boy.
They sold me 10 2-8-0's, not just one Challenger.
They sold me 5 2-6-6-2's, not just one N&W Y6b.
They sold me 5 2-8-4's, not just one brass hybrid C&O J3a.
Who made more money???????
Others commented that they will not buy BLI, I simply said little in their line is of interest, and what is, I mostly already have - bought cheap and rewired as needed.
Precisely. As I was saying, Im not supporting BLI's choice of not selling DCC ready engines, just stating why they would do such a thing. What you said here is exactly what I was thinking.
And expecting BLI to produce engines of less prominance just isnt likely. Bachmann (a large company that has US, UK, and Chinese branches) gets away with doing it by producing them in large quantities, painting them in all sorts of fantasy schemes, and having prices set to attract more beginner modelers, who likely dont have a prototype chosen. BLI attracts a (somewhat) more experienced modeler base, who demand more realism.
For example, Bachmann's ICRR based 2-8-0 engine sold thousands. They made it in over 15 paint schemes.*
Ive had 8 of those alone at one point. Compare that to the (arguably) far less popular BLI fantasy 2-8-0 (from a modified H10s), which sales are pale in comparison. BLI likely took this, and realized that they will never make as much money making fantasy engines for the prices they charge as much as Bachmann can. Their fanbases/customers are simply different.
Also, Id argue BLI definently has better models than Bachmann. Bachmann engines rarely have bearings, drivers rarely sprung, often have those super orange LEDs(personal preference), need additional weight, have their crappy decoders(doesnt apply to you Im aware), often uses outdated dies and molds, etc. BLI may cost more, but besides the decoders, are otherwise very well built.
But that's personal opinion.
Charles
*(ATSF, Sou green, Sou black, WM, B&O, Rock Is, UP, SP, WP,N&W, Maine Cen, BLW, PRR, NYC, Durango & Silv)
Charles,
OK, I get those points, but your are cherry picking some info there.
While the Bachmann 2-8-0 is "freelanced", if you compare prototype photos for many/most of those "fantasy" paint schemes, you see that they picked roadnames where their loco was a pretty good stand it, B&O and WESTERN MARYLAND for example.
And what about the USRA Pacific and Mike? Bachmann can make the headlights, trailing trucks, and tenders right enough, but Broadway won't? I only bought the two Mikes and one Pacific I have from Broadway because I wanted the "heavy" design. I replaced the trailing trucks with Athearn parts and the tenders with Bachmann parts.
True, newer releases have not had "fancy" drive lines with sprung drivers or bearings, some did. In my 50 plus years experiance, those features are not always that important. Bowser steam locos, Mantua steam locos, Vaney steam locos all ran very well, many are still running, without bearings or sprung drivers. Those locos just lacked detail and model accuracy.
And better features mean nothing without good quality control - like the two BLI Mikes I had to rebuild. Having 35 Bachmann/Spectrum steamers of various wheel arrangements and 7 BLI steamers of various wheel arrangements, I don't see any real difference in mechanical performance between the two brands.
BLI only attracts the more experianced modelers of that short list of roadnames......
But of course I come from a time and place in this hobby when people build or modified models to make them better or more correct for their needs. I still do that, even with BLI models.
Just like Athearn finally went to LED's, Bachmann has moved on to better colors - old news.
Outdated dies? Not sure I get that one. A decent piece of tooling is a decent piece of tooling regardless of age. There is great tooling still in use in this industry that is as old as me. I was born in 1957. And crappy tooling is crappy, new or old, like BLI diesels with less detail than my 20 year old Proto2000 stuff.
I add weight to all my steam locomotive tenders, every brand, they are all too light.
Of all my Bachmann locos, only the 2-8-4's I converted to 2-8-2's and a N&W J that I am kit bashing into something else did I find the need to add weight.
Yes, "quality" and "value" are very subjective.
Dont get me wrong, Bachmann engines are cheap and plentiful, and are great candidates for freelancing and customization.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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gmpullman rrinker As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes. Part of that may have to do with the cooperation they get from the PRRT&HS for locomotive details and paint specifications, etc. Similarly, Rapido is working closely with the New Haven Historical Society. It makes the research part of the job go much easier and If I'm not mistaken, the New Haven fellows put some of their own cash on the line to get models produced. Broadway got into the business at the beginning of DCC and had several trial baloons for "Stealth" and Blue-Line runs so I'm sure their accountant knows where the return on investment lies. They may not publicize their wiring diagrams but I have seen replies from their tech people where they have provided the pin-out of some of their decoders. I haven't had any problems ringing out their wire assignments. Admittedly, their smoke unit is something I have no use for and there sure is a lot of extra wiring going to that but it seems to be related to the "chuff synchronization" that drives the sub-miniature blower. Try going to GM or Ford and telling them you want a car with standard shift, no AC, crank windows and just an AM radio. Ain't gonna happen. richhotrain Fear not, Ed. All of us old timers got it. Thanks, Rich Cheers, Ed
rrinker As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes.
Part of that may have to do with the cooperation they get from the PRRT&HS for locomotive details and paint specifications, etc.
Similarly, Rapido is working closely with the New Haven Historical Society. It makes the research part of the job go much easier and If I'm not mistaken, the New Haven fellows put some of their own cash on the line to get models produced.
Broadway got into the business at the beginning of DCC and had several trial baloons for "Stealth" and Blue-Line runs so I'm sure their accountant knows where the return on investment lies.
They may not publicize their wiring diagrams but I have seen replies from their tech people where they have provided the pin-out of some of their decoders. I haven't had any problems ringing out their wire assignments.
Admittedly, their smoke unit is something I have no use for and there sure is a lot of extra wiring going to that but it seems to be related to the "chuff synchronization" that drives the sub-miniature blower.
Try going to GM or Ford and telling them you want a car with standard shift, no AC, crank windows and just an AM radio. Ain't gonna happen.
richhotrain Fear not, Ed. All of us old timers got it.
Thanks, Rich
Cheers, Ed
I would not disagree with any of that.
Broadway worked to create and strengthen that part of the market, and that is what they are known for. My "feeling" is that they believe deeply in sound, and the "casual collecting", or RTR side of the hobby and see that as their main customer base.
I think at this point, and likely for a while, people not interested in sound have just ignored BLI.
And people seriously modeling roads other than the few they have focused in on also just ignore them.
And that is OK.
Bachmann made a two decade business out of catering to C&O modelers as much as possible, as well as other East Coast and Mid Western "lessor roads". They seem to have slowed down on the better offerings now, but the recent USRA Mike and Pacific do carry forward the legacy of Lee Riley to some degree.
Three of my seven Broadway pieces are "stealth" or BlueLine, so someone did buy them. I don't see Ebay flooded with them.....
Having some brackground in this business, my feeling from the beginning was that BLI has been straped for cash more of the time than not.
I think that has played a big role in their product selection and pricing/marketing choices.
I just think they could have been even more successful by understanding ALL of the market better. I could be wrong.
rrinker Face it Sheldon, we're a minority in this hobby.Surely you've seen that from posts just on this forum - people who's roster are a Big Boy or two, a Cab Forward, a NYC Dreyfuss Hudson, oh and a GS-4 Daylight. They're just happier running a series of iconic specialty locos instead of modeling one or two roads and a roster representing that. It's not my style of model railroading, and it's not yours, but it makes those people happy. If Big Boys didn't sell, there wouldn't be more model versions available than total actual Big Boys that ever existed. As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes. They are very distinctive locos, not suitable for other prototype roads for the most part, but they were after one market -the PRR modeler who wanted steam power/ They made what, 2, 3 locos (HO and N under the PCM name? Different decoder for the decoder versions, and not PRR locos - Reading T1 like the ones we both have. I will say I picked up my second one for $200 - and it's the DCC/Sound one. My first one, I got for a discount from the dealer I reserved with, and it wasn't completely perfect - had a loose wire and one of the driver springs wasn't in place, but it was an easy fix. Been perfect ever since - they originally came out when 16 years ago? --Randy
Face it Sheldon, we're a minority in this hobby.Surely you've seen that from posts just on this forum - people who's roster are a Big Boy or two, a Cab Forward, a NYC Dreyfuss Hudson, oh and a GS-4 Daylight. They're just happier running a series of iconic specialty locos instead of modeling one or two roads and a roster representing that. It's not my style of model railroading, and it's not yours, but it makes those people happy. If Big Boys didn't sell, there wouldn't be more model versions available than total actual Big Boys that ever existed.
As for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes. They are very distinctive locos, not suitable for other prototype roads for the most part, but they were after one market -the PRR modeler who wanted steam power/ They made what, 2, 3 locos (HO and N under the PCM name? Different decoder for the decoder versions, and not PRR locos - Reading T1 like the ones we both have. I will say I picked up my second one for $200 - and it's the DCC/Sound one. My first one, I got for a discount from the dealer I reserved with, and it wasn't completely perfect - had a loose wire and one of the driver springs wasn't in place, but it was an easy fix. Been perfect ever since - they originally came out when 16 years ago?
There is no question that over the last 20 years HO collecting, and casual railfan modeling has grown in popularity. It is a chicken and egg question with the evolution of these high end RTR products.
But still, I suspect during the time they were offered, Bachmann sold just as many, if not more, USRA Heavy Mountains than BLI has sold Big Boys. And they are still selling those same 2-8-0's..........
And now that they are out of production, those USRA Heavy Mountains are not all that easy to come by. Glad I bought my 10......
I have had to "fine tune" most of the steam locos I own, Bachmann, BLI, matters not. The ones that have needed the least, my two Proto 2-8-8-2's and two 0-8-0's.
Again, I just think BLI misses a lot of sales because of the choices they have made.
I would have bought a B&O Pacific if the headlight and trailing truck had been correct, despite all the other inaccuracies of that model.
I think I will be picking up a few Bachmann USRA Pacifics and Mikados soon.
I model C&O, but I'm not interested in the monster 2-10-4, even with my 36" radius curves. The J3a maybe.
I would be interested in a WESTERN MARYLAND Challenger, don't guess we will ever see that in non brass......
For years I bought Bachmann DCC onboard locos that came with the dummy plug and instructions for removing the decoder - the decoders sold rather well on Ebay.....
Again, as this hobby evolves I'm glad I have most of what I want.
rrinkerAs for BLI - the name is pretty much a giveaway. They originally started to offer PRR models previous not available in plastic - their first 3 or 4 models were all PRR prototypes.
richhotrainFear not, Ed. All of us old timers got it.
PRR8259For the record, the BLI UP brass hybrid 2-10-2 of a just a few years ago now brings $1100 at brasstrains.com, and sells relatively quickly at that price--in days or weeks--even in used condition. The original price from BLI was far less. I think they were easily obtained for $500 or less.
A few weeks back on eBay I watched a NIB, non-sound, "DCC-ready" '40 BLI Dreyfuss Hudson bid up to and sell for $1,259. I picked mine up when it first came out in 2010 for <$400.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
At higher speeds, the BLI chuff just basically disappears or becomes a "whoosh". I don't think it'll be a bother. Usually there are a couple different whistles for the modeler to choose from. On UP offerings they even sometimes include a non-prototypical whistle choice because not everybody actually likes the UP steam whistles.
With the C&O engines, you may find the price goes up as they tend to sell out. That is not a model I would delay in obtaining, because they may actually turn into "unobtainium".
For the record, the BLI UP brass hybrid 2-10-2 of a just a few years ago now brings $1100 at brasstrains.com, and sells relatively quickly at that price--in days or weeks--even in used condition. The original price from BLI was far less. I think they were easily obtained for $500 or less. I wanted one but never acquired one. Didn't want it badly enough, I guess. It's a beauty of an engine.
Generally speaking the hybrid engines will perform better than the regular production engines. The only issue I ever really had with a hybrid was the sound cutting out at speed (and my son wanted to sell his GN 4-8-4 and get a big screen tv instead--now he wishes he had the GN engine--is all about the green boiler or blue-green boiler steam engines).
Although doubtful it may happen, it would be agreeable with a number of modelers if BLI would offer "DCC Ready" units as an option.
I'm grateful that BLI produced the C&O J3a. It was a pleasat shock as a number of modelers had been asking manufacturers to tool one for years!
I was fortunate in having been able to ride the Family Lines "Operation Lifesaver" special, featuring the Chessie 614 years back. What a beauty of a machine it was to see in action! I even got to go inside her cab. I took photos and made a tape recording of my trip. Since then, my hope was that someone would produce a plastic HO version. My thought was that it would be Bowser. BLI's version appears to be a winner.
Whether in stock or on ebay, I'm budgeting for a BLI unit as they are quite expensive. I hope that the correct whistle (or, at least, the version used in the 1980's) is on BLI's decoder.
This would be my first "model" steamer (I had toy steamers as a small kid). Although I can't imagine running it in silent mode, I plan on having the sound levels on low settings as I've heard steamers at clubs with the volume turned rather high. Loud exhaust "Chuffs", especially at speeds over 30 smph, can become annoying after a while.
PRR8259 Then why doesn't BLI offer plain dc question has been often debated on more than one forum. To say you are not going to buy any BLI engines at all when they are the largest or one of the largest remaining manufacturers of HO steam would seem to be unfortunate, but I can respect that choice, or those that make that choice. Unfortunately there is no perfect manufacturer. They all have their plusses and minuses. I love Kato's quality but some consider their diesel handrails to be coarse and many bemoan their utter lack of paint schemes. Their recent HO offerings have been rather limited, and the older I get the more I learn they made some tooling mistakes just like the other guys. I find the trend toward all fully featured engines to be disturbing, as at that point manufacturers are pushing some of us to buy stuff we don't want or really need, but it's just not up to me. I know the trend is ongoing. Yet at the same time, shopping online today, it's the plain dc units of some roadnames that are still sold out, while full featured ones may still be in stock. I don't know how you forecast demand from that. John
Then why doesn't BLI offer plain dc question has been often debated on more than one forum.
To say you are not going to buy any BLI engines at all when they are the largest or one of the largest remaining manufacturers of HO steam would seem to be unfortunate, but I can respect that choice, or those that make that choice.
Unfortunately there is no perfect manufacturer. They all have their plusses and minuses. I love Kato's quality but some consider their diesel handrails to be coarse and many bemoan their utter lack of paint schemes. Their recent HO offerings have been rather limited, and the older I get the more I learn they made some tooling mistakes just like the other guys.
I find the trend toward all fully featured engines to be disturbing, as at that point manufacturers are pushing some of us to buy stuff we don't want or really need, but it's just not up to me. I know the trend is ongoing. Yet at the same time, shopping online today, it's the plain dc units of some roadnames that are still sold out, while full featured ones may still be in stock. I don't know how you forecast demand from that.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
There have been engines from BLI that I would have removed the decoders from if I could, but I did not know how to get them apart and how/what to do. As Sheldon noted, they do not tell you how to remove their sound. In some cases I can disassemble the mechanism and make repairs to the engine (like replacing missing driver springs that some have needed), but I don't know what to do with the electronics in the tender. I have had issues getting tenders apart at all, even when I'm following their own directions.
Clearly some of their engines are completely different animals from the original BLI offerings. There is a big difference, mechanically, between the first run Santa Fe 2-10-2, and the (decade later) Modernized Santa Fe 2-10-2. The second version is much better. The plastic gears in the first version all fail, it's just a matter of time. The Modernized version has a completely different mechanism with metal gears. It's actually imo much nicer.
So I would not be one to assume that the only improvements they've made are electronic.
There were details like piping that didn't always fit well on the original versions that were fixed when the later run was done.
Engi1487 gmpullman Engi1487 So, what is this suppose to mean? Maybe the Ford Pinto fiasco was before your time. Read the article. Ford knew of their defective design and weighed the options of redesigning and recalling the cars to eliminate (or reduce) the hazard or "roll the dice" and deal with the fall out. I posted that link to make a comparison to BLI sticking with their design (I seem to recall they bought a QSI licence or maybe even bought the patents from QSI?) and they're dealing with the fallout. They DO have an investment to recoup and buying what is, essentially, a competitors decoder to install in their locomotives will not make their bottom line and already thin margin look any better. I see. I would have liked that if you had explained that in the first place, as how was I suppose to know to connect those two together?
gmpullman Engi1487 So, what is this suppose to mean? Maybe the Ford Pinto fiasco was before your time. Read the article. Ford knew of their defective design and weighed the options of redesigning and recalling the cars to eliminate (or reduce) the hazard or "roll the dice" and deal with the fall out. I posted that link to make a comparison to BLI sticking with their design (I seem to recall they bought a QSI licence or maybe even bought the patents from QSI?) and they're dealing with the fallout. They DO have an investment to recoup and buying what is, essentially, a competitors decoder to install in their locomotives will not make their bottom line and already thin margin look any better.
Engi1487 So, what is this suppose to mean?
Maybe the Ford Pinto fiasco was before your time. Read the article. Ford knew of their defective design and weighed the options of redesigning and recalling the cars to eliminate (or reduce) the hazard or "roll the dice" and deal with the fall out.
I posted that link to make a comparison to BLI sticking with their design (I seem to recall they bought a QSI licence or maybe even bought the patents from QSI?) and they're dealing with the fallout. They DO have an investment to recoup and buying what is, essentially, a competitors decoder to install in their locomotives will not make their bottom line and already thin margin look any better.
I see. I would have liked that if you had explained that in the first place, as how was I suppose to know to connect those two together?
Lights - I model an era before ditch lights, when daytime running with headlights was just becoming the norm, and Mars lights were just being tested and brought into use, I just want the headlight to come on when the train runs.
But as described many times, my PWM throttles provide some nice full brightness effects even for stopped trains.
John, the problem with BlueLine locos was the fact that BLI is hung up on sound. Clearly the idea of selling a loco without sound bothers them. And it bothers them that Kevin and I would remove their precious sound decoder, based on the "not so warm" response he got from them about how to rewire their locos for DC only.
The why doesn't BLI offer plain dc question has been often debated on more than one forum.
I'm not saying I agree with it or that I like it, at all. It was a business decision. The "Blueline" series engines just didn't light the world on fire with either sales or quality. At some point they just decided that most of their key repeat buyers prefer fully featured engines.
Sheldon and I disagree on many things, but here is where we actually have something in common: we don't want or need all the features. I like cool lights, and he probably doesn't need them or else is perfectly content to do his own. As far as why they don't make at least an attempt (like Bachmann) to get some of the road specific details "correct", I have no good answer.
Maybe Bachmann is doing larger product runs and in their sales model they assume some of the road specific details are amortized over the entire run? I just do not know.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL No offense to anyone, but not everyone in this hobby models PRR or ATSF. Sheldon
No offense to anyone, but not everyone in this hobby models PRR or ATSF.
That part about the PRR and ATSF was not meant for you, nor anyone else. There was literally ZERO implication that "everyone should model ATSF or PRR", nor did I imply that BLI is trying to cater toward everyone by producing more PRR and ATSF engines.
I was simply stating to those that do model PRR or ATSF, they produce some nice models. (And we are grateful and lucky that they do. )
I was also giving an example of how they werent producing all the flashiest engines. Engines like the H10s or the L1s are arguably not fancy in any means. Yet they still produced them.
I dont see why you think everyone's reply is intented toward you, and every manufacturer is trying to please you.
Good for you if you dont want to buy BLI engines. I, and many others will be.
I agree their diesels need some work. The latest F7s/F3s and certain others are decent, but the GEVOs (?) and SD40s need some updating and prototype specific detail.
Trainman440 Back to the original topic, BLI makes their own decoders, it is obviously their incentive to put them in every possible model they can. Producing their own decoders significantly reduces the additional cost they take to add, since they arent paying some other decoder manufac to add to their engines. Yet, it allows them to charge the same price as other makers' DCC sound engines. So they make greater profits putting in decoders they make themselves since they get both the loco's profit margin AND the decoder's. Every manufac that makes their own decoders has pushed their engines with their own decoders more than their engines without, such as MTH. Now Im aware their diesels do come in DCC ready, but I do believe their steam comes only in Proto sound form. And it makes sense they do, for similar reasons (plus theyre MTH). I have yet to have issues with my paragon 2/3 decoders, I actually enjoy the Paragon 2 sound a lot. Obviously it would be nice if they brought back the "no sound" versions of their engines, or even the Blueline. But there's just so little incentive to do so. Maybe some of you will avoid buying BLI locos but the vast majority wont. Theyre one of the few who makes rarer PRR (and Santa Fe sorta) engines thats not brass. PRR modelers like me will continue to buy their stuff. PS anyone who has a spare Paragon 2 steam decoder they want to toss, PM me, I want one ;) Cheers! Charles
Back to the original topic, BLI makes their own decoders, it is obviously their incentive to put them in every possible model they can.
Producing their own decoders significantly reduces the additional cost they take to add, since they arent paying some other decoder manufac to add to their engines. Yet, it allows them to charge the same price as other makers' DCC sound engines. So they make greater profits putting in decoders they make themselves since they get both the loco's profit margin AND the decoder's.
Every manufac that makes their own decoders has pushed their engines with their own decoders more than their engines without, such as MTH. Now Im aware their diesels do come in DCC ready, but I do believe their steam comes only in Proto sound form. And it makes sense they do, for similar reasons (plus theyre MTH).
I have yet to have issues with my paragon 2/3 decoders, I actually enjoy the Paragon 2 sound a lot.
Obviously it would be nice if they brought back the "no sound" versions of their engines, or even the Blueline. But there's just so little incentive to do so.
Maybe some of you will avoid buying BLI locos but the vast majority wont. Theyre one of the few who makes rarer PRR (and Santa Fe sorta) engines thats not brass. PRR modelers like me will continue to buy their stuff. PS anyone who has a spare Paragon 2 steam decoder they want to toss, PM me, I want one ;)
Cheers!
We all understand the economics of manufacturing, but all that would mean more if they actually owned a factory that even one part came from.......
Proprietary or not, the WHOLE LOCOMOTIVE comes from a factory owned by someone else.
No offense to anyone, but not everyone in this hobby models PRR or ATSF. I think it is great that those models are offered for those who do, but just like you might not be buying any locos that say B&O, or C&O, or WESTERN MARYLAND, I'm not buying any that say PRR, UP, ATSF, NYC or even N&W, except to repaint a few N&W locos to ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
There you have it, most of their steam loco product line complelely outside my interests. And most of their diesels that I have seen don't meet my detail requirements.
I dont agree with what theyre doing, but I tell tell why they do it...
Why do they not offer non-decoder engines? BLI makes their own decoders, it is obviously their incentive to put them in every possible model they can.
Maybe some of you will avoid buying BLI locos but the vast majority wont. Theyre one of the few who makes rarer PRR (and Santa Fe sorta) engines thats not brass. PRR modelers like me will continue to buy their stuff.
That's why they do it. Whether it will suit all their customers is another topic. PS anyone who has a spare Paragon 2 steam decoder they want to toss, PM me, I want one ;)
PRR8259 mbinsewi wvg_ca it's just a whole lot easier [for me] to NOT even consider BLI locomotives as part of my roster . Same here. Mike. I can certainly understand why some would say that, and I have written some scathing comments on here about BLI's decoders in the past. However, I have to be honest and give credit where credit is due. I defy you to go anywhere, usually defined as brasstrains.com, and find ANY engine (brass, hybrid, plastic whatever) under $1000 that will offer the same good appearance, detailing, factory lighting, very chip resistant high quality factory paint, and generally good performance, as what BLI offers with some of their brass hybrids. You just cannot. There were some Railworks/Crown Custom Imports New Haven 4-6-2's (containing great Boo Rim Precision gearboxes) selling in the $600 price range that were new old stock (after the importer passed away) but they are gone now--sold out. I've spent many hours combing the internet for good steam power and I know what is out there and what is just not (excluding the beat up old brass on Ebay that can be a crapshoot and require considerable fiddling to make usable). Now, some folks only want to spend $150 or less for a steam engine. If that is the case, then you need to stick to Bachmann or Athearn Roundhouse series or...idk? If you want steam power, what else are you going to do? MTH is currently producing their final steam locos EVER, and YES, I have two monster DM&IR 2-8-8-4's coming, one for me and basically one for my son. Contrary to perhaps Sheldon's opinion BLI does sell a lot of "smaller" locos. There are 2-8-0's and 4-6-2's and 2-8-2's of many roadnames, and they make run after run of them. To me, that is "small", but possibly not small enough for some folks. Also, it actually costs every bit as much money to tool up and make a small Southern Pacific 0-6-0 switcher as a much larger engine. All the steps are the same. That (and the complex multi-color paint schemes) is why the Challenger Imports SP 0-6-0's made many years ago now are $2000 engines. I am told nobody can produce a new 0-6-0 in full on brass now for less than about $1500--and that means even to do small steam as a brass hybrid is going to be cost prohibitive. You have to generate enough sales, which in brass is at least 100 units (according to Jim Bennett who is friends with the owner of Boo Rim) to get made. The problem with that is there are very few "correct" "road specific" engines out there that will generate 100 units in sales. There just are not enough buyers of steam power anymore. Rapido has found that out: reservations for their small Canadian steam engines were underwhelming, and at least one is on indefinite "hold" pending more reservations, and these are far from being $150 engines, more like $450 street sale price. Challengers, Big Boys, other monster articulateds, and big surviving passenger 4-8-4's just plain sell. Other steam power--there just aren't usually enough people willing to buy them to generate enough sales numbers anymore. However BLI can continue cranking out USRA steamers till the cows come home; they are already tooled. Disclaimer: Paul, I know there are New Haven fans that will argue this, but New Haven is likely an exception and far from the rule. There are D&RGW 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's coming in brass (they shared a common boiler) but the actual as delivered price is going to be above $2000 regardless of what some online price quotes may say (they are outdated). This, again, is according to Jim Bennett, Moderator of one of the brass forums over on Facebook. Happy turkey day to all- John
mbinsewi wvg_ca it's just a whole lot easier [for me] to NOT even consider BLI locomotives as part of my roster . Same here. Mike.
wvg_ca
Same here.
Mike.
I can certainly understand why some would say that, and I have written some scathing comments on here about BLI's decoders in the past. However, I have to be honest and give credit where credit is due. I defy you to go anywhere, usually defined as brasstrains.com, and find ANY engine (brass, hybrid, plastic whatever) under $1000 that will offer the same good appearance, detailing, factory lighting, very chip resistant high quality factory paint, and generally good performance, as what BLI offers with some of their brass hybrids. You just cannot. There were some Railworks/Crown Custom Imports New Haven 4-6-2's (containing great Boo Rim Precision gearboxes) selling in the $600 price range that were new old stock (after the importer passed away) but they are gone now--sold out. I've spent many hours combing the internet for good steam power and I know what is out there and what is just not (excluding the beat up old brass on Ebay that can be a crapshoot and require considerable fiddling to make usable).
Now, some folks only want to spend $150 or less for a steam engine. If that is the case, then you need to stick to Bachmann or Athearn Roundhouse series or...idk?
If you want steam power, what else are you going to do? MTH is currently producing their final steam locos EVER, and YES, I have two monster DM&IR 2-8-8-4's coming, one for me and basically one for my son.
Contrary to perhaps Sheldon's opinion BLI does sell a lot of "smaller" locos. There are 2-8-0's and 4-6-2's and 2-8-2's of many roadnames, and they make run after run of them. To me, that is "small", but possibly not small enough for some folks.
Also, it actually costs every bit as much money to tool up and make a small Southern Pacific 0-6-0 switcher as a much larger engine. All the steps are the same. That (and the complex multi-color paint schemes) is why the Challenger Imports SP 0-6-0's made many years ago now are $2000 engines. I am told nobody can produce a new 0-6-0 in full on brass now for less than about $1500--and that means even to do small steam as a brass hybrid is going to be cost prohibitive. You have to generate enough sales, which in brass is at least 100 units (according to Jim Bennett who is friends with the owner of Boo Rim) to get made. The problem with that is there are very few "correct" "road specific" engines out there that will generate 100 units in sales. There just are not enough buyers of steam power anymore.
Rapido has found that out: reservations for their small Canadian steam engines were underwhelming, and at least one is on indefinite "hold" pending more reservations, and these are far from being $150 engines, more like $450 street sale price.
Challengers, Big Boys, other monster articulateds, and big surviving passenger 4-8-4's just plain sell. Other steam power--there just aren't usually enough people willing to buy them to generate enough sales numbers anymore. However BLI can continue cranking out USRA steamers till the cows come home; they are already tooled.
Disclaimer: Paul, I know there are New Haven fans that will argue this, but New Haven is likely an exception and far from the rule.
There are D&RGW 2-8-2's and 4-6-2's coming in brass (they shared a common boiler) but the actual as delivered price is going to be above $2000 regardless of what some online price quotes may say (they are outdated). This, again, is according to Jim Bennett, Moderator of one of the brass forums over on Facebook.
Happy turkey day to all-
John, the problem with the "small " steam form BLI is this, they are too cheap or too lazy to make the simplest small proto specific detail changes on these locos.
The detail on all three of those locos is not even Bachmann standard line level. Bachmann Mikados and Pacifics at least have correct trailing trucks, correct headlight locations, and various tenders that reflect the style of the roadname even if they are not perfect.
For totally generic I should pay more? And not be able to buy it without a decoder?
Since DCC or sound is not an issue for me, mechanically, with decoders removed, none of my BLI locos run significantly better than my Bachmann/Spectrum locos.
In fact, the two BLI heavy Mikes I have, had to be torn down and reassembled by me as if I was building a Bowser kit to get reasonable performance.
I have my share of larger steam locos, but I am building an operational model railroad not a museum display of famous steam giants. I have way more Connies (10), Mikes (8), Pacifics (4, and shopping for a few more) and Mountains (10) than articulated or long wheelbase giants of late steam. Even at that, 5 of my 10 articulated locos are USRA 2-6-6-2's, not really any bigger than a Mountain or a Santa Fe class.
Price has little to do with it, but, I paid less than $200 each for two BLI Class A's, only slightly more than $200 each for two PCM DC Reading T-1's, And only a little over $100 each for a Pacific and the two heavy Mikes - had I paid more I might have been really upset that I had to rebuild them.
Admittedly, nearly all my locos were purchased years ago, and my loco want list is very small.
The C&O J3a is the only BLI product I am even remotely currently interested in, But I already have two very nice running Spectrum C&O J-2's to pull that train......
Now what I would buy is a nice B&O P7e that is not $1200, $400, $500 yes, $1200 no.
The dollar cost average of my whole fleet of 140 locos, steam and diesel, is around $100 each. They are all nicely detailed and run great. But again, they are all DC and have been purchased over the last 20 years. And it even includes a few pieces of brass and brass hybrids.
I'm a modeler and kit basher, not an "expensive model collector". Nothing wrong with collecting nice products, but I'm about the layout scenic and operational goals as the big picture, aquiring locos that are suitable is just one piece in that puzzle, it is not the primary end game.
To that end BLI has missed a lot of my money, while Proto, Bachmann, Intermoutain, and Genesis, in that order, have gotten most of my loco dollars in the last 20 years.
gmpullman I hope they simply decide to abandon the maligned "Paragon" architecture and provide a reliable decoder in future releases.
I hope they simply decide to abandon the maligned "Paragon" architecture and provide a reliable decoder in future releases.
richhotrain rrinker I do think BLI could sell a lot more locos if they offered DC only versions with a stadnard plug for a decoder. Not only the DC die hards, but more DCC users would buy them. Their locos aren't poorly made, and they've done some things that are otherwise only available in brass. The problems are almost always with the decoders.
rrinker I do think BLI could sell a lot more locos if they offered DC only versions with a stadnard plug for a decoder. Not only the DC die hards, but more DCC users would buy them. Their locos aren't poorly made, and they've done some things that are otherwise only available in brass. The problems are almost always with the decoders.
I do think BLI could sell a lot more locos if they offered DC only versions with a stadnard plug for a decoder. Not only the DC die hards, but more DCC users would buy them. Their locos aren't poorly made, and they've done some things that are otherwise only available in brass. The problems are almost always with the decoders.
Agreed.
Two of my seven "BLI" products are original PCM Reading T-1's sold as DC models.
All my other BLI locos now sport Bachmann tenders with no sound or DCC.
Changing the tenders gave the locos a family look with the rest of my roster.
I have two heavy Mikes with Bachmann long haul tenders, two N&W Class A's with tenders from C&O 2-8-4's, and a heavy Pacific with an oil long haul tender from a Bachmann 2-10-2.
The Class A tenders are similar in style to my Mikes freelanced from 2-8-4's (which have the smaller NKP version of that tender) and also are similar in style to the Reading T-1 tenders.
The others are USRA long tenders match most of my fleet of Mountains, other Pacifics and 2-10-2's.
BLI has missed a lot of business by not offering DC models, by not being able to make small proto specific changes on the Mike and Pacific, and by putting sound ahead of detail in some cases.
PRR8259 I defy you to go anywhere, usually defined as brasstrains.com, and find ANY engine (brass, hybrid, plastic whatever) under $1000 that will offer the same good appearance, detailing, factory lighting, very chip resistant high quality factory paint, and generally good performance, as what BLI offers with some of their brass hybrids.
I agree there. Even after rebuilding the drive, adding a decoder and speaker and even trying to come close to a factory painting and lettering job a brass engine is still a fussy thing to contend with.
All of my recent Broadway purchases have been with the caveat that if I can not get the factory decoder/motor to function properly, with or without warranty service, I factor in that I will probably be installing another manufacturers decoder some time down the road. I've already swapped out probably a dozen Paragon/QSI decoders over the past few years.
Still, BLI makes a great product and fills a need for at least some "desirable" models. Their service department has always been helpful to me and they have always tried to get the repairs made to the best of their ability.
Good Luck, Ed