Since I build 99% of my frieght cars from kits, I can make sure all the details do not rub when I add them. All my cars must negotiate an 18" radius S Curve to make it past production. That way I know there will never be problems.
.
Any details that interfere get left off or modified.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
HO-Velo Oh good, it's not just me that thinks this thread has become eerie at times. A couple times it felt like I created Frankenstein's monster and the village mob is coming after it. I can see the horror film heading now; "The Terrifying Thread That Wouldn't Die.
Oh good, it's not just me that thinks this thread has become eerie at times. A couple times it felt like I created Frankenstein's monster and the village mob is coming after it. I can see the horror film heading now; "The Terrifying Thread That Wouldn't Die.
Its because for years a small but vocal group of elitist modelers kept labeling companies who didn't make RTR products as accurate as possible as fraudsters.
Essentially, they bought a boxcar, then LATER found out the prototype may have had different ends and a different road number, or the boxcar red a bit too brown to be accurate, then complain the manufacturer was trying to charge $50 for a foobie.
They didn't even know about the correct details BEFORE they bought the car. They bought it because they simply thought it was the most accurate car on the market, even though they had little idea as to what made it accurate.
IOW, they cared about owning the most accurate model.
Which is the opposite of your situation. You are buying an accurate car and making assumptions that it meets a common standard. A standard that is important to you and a standard you have known for decades.
- Douglas
Doughless HO-Velo Oh good, it's not just me that thinks this thread has become eerie at times. A couple times it felt like I created Frankenstein's monster and the village mob is coming after it. I can see the horror film heading now; "The Terrifying Thread That Wouldn't Die. Its because for years a small but vocal group of elitist modelers kept labeling companies who didn't make RTR products as accurate as possible as fraudsters.
References please or calling shens!
Essentially, they bought a boxcar, then LATER found out the prototype may have had different ends and a different road number, then complain the manufacturer was trying to charge $50 for a foobie. They didn't even know about the correct details BEFORE they bought the car. They bought it because they simply thought it was the most accurate car on the market, even though they had little idea as to what made it accurate. IOW, they cared about owning the most accurate car, not really caring about the details themselves.
They didn't even know about the correct details BEFORE they bought the car. They bought it because they simply thought it was the most accurate car on the market, even though they had little idea as to what made it accurate. IOW, they cared about owning the most accurate car, not really caring about the details themselves.
And of course you know this will go on until global thermo nuclear war destroys the planet and the hobby along with it.
In all the hew and cry, people seem to forget we have more high fidelity (close to the real thing) models than ever before. So rather than feel blessed and happy about being in the golden age of the hobby with the most cool stuff ever, people just complain all the more. *sigh* Human nature isn't it. The more nice things people have, the less happy they are.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 Doughless HO-Velo Oh good, it's not just me that thinks this thread has become eerie at times. A couple times it felt like I created Frankenstein's monster and the village mob is coming after it. I can see the horror film heading now; "The Terrifying Thread That Wouldn't Die. Its because for years a small but vocal group of elitist modelers kept labeling companies who didn't make RTR products as accurate as possible as fraudsters. References please or calling shens! Essentially, they bought a boxcar, then LATER found out the prototype may have had different ends and a different road number, then complain the manufacturer was trying to charge $50 for a foobie. They didn't even know about the correct details BEFORE they bought the car. They bought it because they simply thought it was the most accurate car on the market, even though they had little idea as to what made it accurate. IOW, they cared about owning the most accurate car, not really caring about the details themselves. And of course you know this will go on until global thermo nuclear war destroys the planet and the hobby along with it. In all the hew and cry, people seem to forget we have more high fidelity (close to the real thing) models than ever before. So rather than feel blessed and happy about being in the golden age of the hobby with the most cool stuff ever, people just complain all the more. *sigh* Human nature isn't it. The more nice things people have, the less happy they are.
I was simply defining the mark of an elitist. The guy who cares about having the best wine collection even though they know little themselves about what makes a good wine. Then later when they do know, calling out the vineyard as being below par.
Past forums and threads over the years were dripping with those types of comments. I think Atlas got tired of a bunch of elitist complaining know-littles infesting their forum so they shut it down.
What if comments were written this way: If all you want to do is run 30 car trains around a few big loops of track, you probably don't care about cars operating very precisely. I liked watching long trains run continously when I was a kid.
Doughless I was simply defining the mark of an elitist. The guy who cares about having the best wine collection even though they know little themselves about what makes a good wine. Then later when they do know, calling out the vineyard as being below par.
Right... obligatory inclusion then? I guess we know they are out their lurking so we need to be sure to put them on notice! I suppose because we are discussing high fidelity freight cars then we have to be sure to thow the dirty bathwater in with the good looking baby.
That was then, this is now. The past is the past - no need to keep re-living it unless things are boring and we need a little drama to spice things up?
Lots of that at train shows. It's fun to watch for a few minutes and then interest is lost. This is why we like to build layouts and get into other aspects of the hobby like detailing scenes or operations etc, to keep interest up. Or in forums, a little drama now and then.
riogrande5761 Doughless I was simply defining the mark of an elitist. The guy who cares about having the best wine collection even though they know little themselves about what makes a good wine. Then later when they do know, calling out the vineyard as being below par. Right... obligatory inclusion then? I guess we know they are out their lurking so we need to be sure to put them on notice! I suppose because we are discussing high fidelity freight cars then we have to be sure to thow the dirty bathwater in with the good looking baby. Past forums and threads over the years were dripping with those types of comments. I think Atlas got tired of a bunch of elitist complaining know-littles infesting their forum so they shut it down. That was then, this is now. The past is the past - no need to keep re-living it unless things are boring and we need a little drama to spice things up? What if comments were written this way: If all you want to do is run 30 car trains around a few big loops of track, you probably don't care about cars operating very precisely. I liked watching long trains run continously when I was a kid. Lots of that at train shows. It's fun to watch for a few minutes and then interest is lost. This is why we like to build layouts and get into other aspects of the hobby like detailing scenes or operations etc, to keep interest up. Or in forums, a little drama now and then.
Back to the overall topic. The emergence of highly detailed RTR cars was, in part, due to a bunch of complainers suggesting that producers were fraudsters producing foobies when they should be producing accurate products.
I try to refrain from discussing business on a train forum, but just because high end products sell, doesn't mean they are in high demand, or were in more demand than the lower end products.
Product laddering means that a company does not want its cheaper product cannibalizing sales of its higher end product, so they don't want to make the cheaper product "too desireable", so they intentionally make it inferior when they could actually make it better with little extra cost.
And measuring a product line by total dollar sales means little. If 100 people bought a product for $50, that's $5,000 of revenue. Compared to 300 people paying $15, or $4,500. If variable costs on the $50 item stay reasonable, a company would much rather cater its product to the 100 people than the 300 people.....even though the people who desire the cheaper model outnumber the elite 3 to 1.
So if we say that Athearn Genesis took off and put Athean BB out of business because the "market" ( defined as more modelers) demanded it, think again.
I like watching long trains run around my long single track railroad. It is relaxing. My friend who has no layout is always welcome to come in and run his trains.
Even as a student financially strapped modeler I just always built the biggest curves I could...5x9 instead of 4x8 has many more possibilities. I always have wanted to run the big stuff, and hacking it up to do 18" was just not something we did around here, and not even at the Penn State Model Railroading Club.
It is true that whenever I have passed along the occasional comment from my friends at Bowser that with some exceptions they are building freight cars for the "other 90%" of hobbyists that the 10% people tend to get very upset, to the point of angry name calling.
I do believe that a small but highly vocal group has influenced the manufacturers to go too far to the expensive side.
John
A little more about product laddering. I've been car shopping and checked out the Nissan Sentra. Wonderful car in every aspect except its grossly underpowered by my standards. It comes only with the 1.8L 4cyl. Even though Nissan makes a robust 2.5L, it isn't offered in this car. If you want more power for the Sentra, you need the splurge on the turbo model that costs at least $5 grand more.
And, if Nissan put the 2.5L into the Sentra, it would cannibalize sales from the more expensive Nissan Altima, which has the 2.5L as its base motor. (if you want more power from the Altima, that will require an upgrade to the premium model with the 3.5L 6cyl).
You see, many people would love the Sentra with the 2.5, (since the consensus of reviews says its only fault is undepowered), which would cost very little, but Nissan doesn't allow that minimum upgrade to the masses as it would cut sales of the "niche" turbo model and from another more expensive model.
Doughless The emergence of highly detailed RTR cars was, in part, due to a bunch of complainers suggesting that producers were fraudsters producing foobies when they should be producing accurate products.
The emergence of highly detailed RTR cars was, in part, due to a bunch of complainers suggesting that producers were fraudsters producing foobies when they should be producing accurate products.
Damn thats a cynical angle on the topic. Could it actually be that manufacturers realized there was a demand for higher fidelity models and are doing what good companies do? Meet the demand? If anything, I would think the manufacturers would not be happy about accusations of fraud and foobies. I mean, who would want to make a living at trying to please people who are impossible to please?
I guess Blaine Hadfield for one, who left ExactRail to start his own company because hey, abuse is fun! Passion about making model trains has nothing to do with it, how could it? Same for Shane of Athearn who started ScaleTrains. Does he do it because he likes all the vitreol that comes from people with nothing better to do but be unhappy about ever better models?
... just because high end products sell, doesn't mean they are in high demand, or were in more demand than the lower end products.
Lets look at that supposition. Why the heck would a manufacturer not respond to the market demand? Looking at the last 20 years production of higher detail models on the market have steadily risen while the production of lower end products has declined, and in the case of Athearn blue box, were discontinued entirely in Oct 2009 per the Athearn wiki. I don't know but actions seem to tell the story.
I'm not saying there isn't demand for lower end products, but I am saying the proportion has gone through a fundemental shift simply by observing what has been made vs what is being made.
So if we say that Athearn Genesis took off and put Athean BB out of business because the "market" (defined as more modelers) demanded it, think again.
I wonder how Athearn defines market? Here is the excerpt:
"Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits. There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear. Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products."
It sounds like Athearn did not think the market could bear them selling blue box kits at the price they deemed they would have to sell them at to still make a profit. If you disagree, tell me what you think they meant.
Regardless of how you dissect it, we have what we have and it's a good thing, lots of choice. Personally I think thats a good thing and everyone should be happy, but for some reason we have to dredge up the same old bad feelings and accusations ad nauseum. There will never be a rest until ol Putin puts us all out of our misery apparently.
deleted
riogrande5761 ... just because high end products sell, doesn't mean they are in high demand, or were in more demand than the lower end products. Lets look at that supposition. Why the heck would a manufacturer not respond to the market demand? Looking at the last 20 years production of higher detail models on the market have steadily risen while the production of lower end products has declined, and in the case of Athearn blue box, were discontinued entirely in Oct 2009 per the Athearn wiki. I don't know but actions seem to tell the story. I'm not saying there isn't demand for lower end products, but I am saying the proportion has gone through a fundemental shift simply by observing what has been made vs what is being made. So if we say that Athearn Genesis took off and put Athean BB out of business because the "market" (defined as more modelers) demanded it, think again. I wonder how Athearn defines market? Here is the excerpt: "Effective immediately, we here at Athearn have made the difficult decision to discontinue the production of our Blue Box line of kits. There were several factors that contributed to this extremely challenging decision however, the primary issue revolved around affordability and ensuring that our Blue Box kit pricing remain aligned with what the market can bear. Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products." It sounds like Athearn did not think the market could bear them selling blue box kits at the price they deemed they would have to sell them at to still make a profit. If you disagree, tell me what you think they meant.
Jim, I deleted my previous post to respond to this excerpt more clearly. Here is what I think they meant.
Athearn launched the Genesis line and needed to invest in new tooling, wire detail supply chains, metal wheel supply chains, better painting equipment, and labor to assemble the Genesis products. Because these items are coming on line, they could spread out the costs of these expensive investments by also using these resources to assemble the BB kits, aka RTR.
Essentially, the cost of the RTR cars became subsidized relative to what those costs would have been if RTR was produced without a Genesis line. There is no way that Athearn could make those investments just to add details and assemble the BB kits and have them remotely be in the same price point as the BB.
When they say Unfortunately, due to increased manufacturing and labor costs it has been determined that we are no longer able to continue offering kits at competitive price points as compared to our already assembled products."
That means they can offer the RTR products for nearly the cost of the BB kit, and they determined that hardly anybody would choose BB over RTR given the price points. And the market will not bear both products being sold concurrently.
That does not mean that customers no longer desired BB kits at their prices.
It means that given the option of a competing product on the shelves at that (subsidized) RTR price point, BB kits would not be chosen. Not to mention the fewer BB kits there are to compete with RTR, the more RTR items they can sell to help recoup that heavy investment in the materials that were essentially purchased for the Genesis line, which is more of a strategic decision.
The demise of BB kits is more due to the introduction of the Genesis line and Athearn's new cost structure needing to be spread out, not due to lack of demand for BB kits at their prices, per se.
Hi Douglas--
Not saying that I totally agree with everything, but the logic of your above post does read as being plausible.
As far as the basic kits vs ready-to-run issue, I believe one manufacturer indicated that any savings due to not having to assemble the kit at the point of manufacture was eaten up by extra costs in ensuring that all the parts were included in the box. The most certain way to ensure completeness is to ship it fully assembled.
Douglas,
I have to agree with your analysis of the demise of the Blue Box kit.
I will add a few thoughts:
First, over the last 10-15 years, the price structure of the RTR line is roughly equal to the inflation adjusted price structure of the Blue box kits if you use the 1970's as your base line.
Athearn expanded the Blue Box line considerably in the 1970's, and raised prices to cover the costs. From there on out, Blue Box kit prices did not keep pace with inflation. Athearn was in a strong position and used that to dominate the market with lower prices than the other easy to build plastic freight cars on the market.
So when RTR came along, Blue Box kit prices were artificially low. That sitiuation was not going to work much longer.
Next point - a large percentage of the original 1990's/early 2000's RTR line was nothing more than assembled Blue Box kits with metal wheels and better paint jobs.
Those items are now being rebranded into the Roundhouse line, but the fact remains that Athearn still produces almost all of the Blue Box line as RTR under one label or the other.
Many other RTR items are Model Die Casting tooling from the late 80's and early 90's.
Only a portion of the RTR line is relatively new tooling developed for that line, most came in some form from previous products.
To those who model more modern eras this is less obvious because most of the Blue Box line represented prototypes from the 30's thru the 70's.
So it was going to be very market painful to sell both kits and RTR of the same items for the same price, as you suggest.
Sheldon
My dealer has been telling me for the past decade that if he has one kit, and 10 RTRs of the same identical car, he will sell out of the RTR before he sells the kit. People on these boards very often say they never have any time for modeling -- possibly because they are spending their time on these boards. Possibly because they never developed the skills to build a kit.
Graham LinePeople on these boards very often say they never have any time for modeling -- possibly because they are spending their time on these boards. Possibly because they never developed the skills to build a kit.
@Graham Line
I can only speak for myself, but since moving into our home late last year, my wife (who does support my train hobby) is pretty much dictating little to no hobby time while we are doing major projects on our fixer upper home. I can't speak for others, but have you considered that maybe they like building kits almost as much as they like going to the dentist?
I have built many of the kits available (Athearn bb, MDC, Accurail, E&C, Walthers, and also Proto 2000, Intermountain hight detail kits, and flat part Eel River. Even as recently as last couple years I have built a few more high detail kits (IMRC and Proto2000). I never really enjoyed it that much but it was necessary before RTR and even after RTR has been around and well established, I've built more. Am I worthy?
But looking at the bigger picture of kits and skills, where is it written "thou shalt be a kit builder and enjoy it"? It seems there are a number of those who disapprove if hobbyist's don't embrace kit building happily. Some like it, some do not and others have dexterity issues like shaking hands, or poor dexterity.
Sure, we can all improve to one degree or another but is it so wrong to enjoy the hobby in a way we choose, which may not be rolling stock kit building? Maybe others are better at operations, or layout building, track laying, scenery or other things.
Geez, I thought the hobby was supposed to be fun. It's not feeling very fun right now. One thing I like about my wife is she really has no patience for people who feel it's ok to be condescending to her. Here is her solution: Here is my cat, and here is my cats back side.
cx500 As far as the basic kits vs ready-to-run issue, I believe one manufacturer indicated that any savings due to not having to assemble the kit at the point of manufacture was eaten up by extra costs in ensuring that all the parts were included in the box. The most certain way to ensure completeness is to ship it fully assembled.
Yes. There was a short period of time where BB kits were essentially unassembled RTR products. The shells were reworked slightly to remove the molded on details to allow for separately applied detail parts, like wire grab irons, which were included in that little manilla envelope. They also came with metal wheelsets.
That was also about the time Athearn introduced the Genesis line, so those parts had an ample supply chain. I assume Athearn planned for the upgrades to the BB kits when they introduced Genesis, but then probably figured out that it was more cost effective for them to just assemble and sell the RTR cars.
Again, that does not mean that people did not want BB kits at the prices being sold. It means Athearn could make a different product more competitive due to having the parts and labor already in the chain.
Atlas Trainman and Walthers Trainline are two prodcut lines that have molded on details, like BB used to have. So there still was/is a market for those types of products. Since they have the labor on hand to assemble their premium lines, it doesn't take much cost at all to assemble the cheaper products. That's not the same thing as hiring labor specifically and only to assemble a kit and sell it RTR, which would be a very big leap in price, IMO.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Douglas, I have to agree with your analysis of the demise of the Blue Box kit. I will add a few thoughts: First, over the last 10-15 years, the price structure of the RTR line is roughly equal to the inflation adjusted price structure of the Blue box kits if you use the 1970's as your base line. Athearn expanded the Blue Box line considerably in the 1970's, and raised prices to cover the costs. From there on out, Blue Box kit prices did not keep pace with inflation. Athearn was in a strong position and used that to dominate the market with lower prices than the other easy to build plastic freight cars on the market. So when RTR came along, Blue Box kit prices were artificially low. That sitiuation was not going to work much longer. Next point - a large percentage of the original 1990's/early 2000's RTR line was nothing more than assembled Blue Box kits with metal wheels and better paint jobs. Those items are now being rebranded into the Roundhouse line, but the fact remains that Athearn still produces almost all of the Blue Box line as RTR under one label or the other. Many other RTR items are Model Die Casting tooling from the late 80's and early 90's. Only a portion of the RTR line is relatively new tooling developed for that line, most came in some form from previous products. To those who model more modern eras this is less obvious because most of the Blue Box line represented prototypes from the 30's thru the 70's. So it was going to be very market painful to sell both kits and RTR of the same items for the same price, as you suggest. Sheldon
Thanks for the details. 100% Agree. Many cars with vintage tooling are still being produced and sold. They have been upgraded to the degree it makes economic sense, which happens because the higher end product lines allow for the better materials and labor. The lower end products in their current form sell because that's what's offered, not necessarily because the market for lower detailed products diminished.
Accurail, who does not have a higher end product and has made no investment in better materials, hasn't changed their kits in decades and seem to be doing fine. A small foray into RTR (merely assembled kits) seems to have not mattered either way.
You can get alot of MDC's early kit stuff on e-bay from river city, have no idea where he gets his parts but he seems to have an endless supply.
riogrande5761 If anything, I would think the manufacturers would not be happy about accusations of fraud and foobies. I mean, who would want to make a living at trying to please people who are impossible to please?
If anything, I would think the manufacturers would not be happy about accusations of fraud and foobies. I mean, who would want to make a living at trying to please people who are impossible to please?
I remember a lively discussion on one of the other forums that you participated in, about the new (at the time) BLMA Tropicana reefer. It was trashed because it was a "foobie". I guess your view on the matter has changed?
In my world, there is no such thing as a foobie. It just needs to LOOK right.
Also, the golden age, as you put it, for the hobby was in the 80's and 90's. We had a lot of kit builders and a small amount of rtr. You could pick and choose. It really was a hobby for everyone.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
trwroute I remember a lively discussion on one of the other forums about the new (at the time) BLMA Tropicana reefer. It was trashed because it was a "foobie". In my world, there is no such thing as a foobie. It just needs to LOOK right.
I remember a lively discussion on one of the other forums about the new (at the time) BLMA Tropicana reefer. It was trashed because it was a "foobie".
Interesting about foobs. InterMountain released at least two of their wonderfully accurate, highly detailed, expensive U18Bs ..... in paint schemes that never existed. They did it on purpose and even advertise them as such. Central Vermont and Southern Pacific are the Famous Image Collector Series.
Maybe foobishness doesn't matter. It might even be desirable if you're a freelancer.
trwroute riogrande5761 If anything, I would think the manufacturers would not be happy about accusations of fraud and foobies. I mean, who would want to make a living at trying to please people who are impossible to please? I remember a lively discussion on one of the other forums that you participated in, about the new (at the time) BLMA Tropicana reefer. It was trashed because it was a "foobie". I guess your view on the matter has changed?
What view would I have in the matter? Tropicana reefers are of no interest to me, never were. As for bitter complainers, there will always be some, what would you like me to do about it? I don't have a magic wand, but it would be nice if people did less of it.
Trust me, thats a good thing because it keeps the model train industry more financially healthy!
So tell me why today is not a hobby for everyone? Today, model trains of a MUCH wider variety are available and accessible than in the 80's and 90's. Why? Today we have all the stuff that was made in the 1980's and 1990's on Ebay and at train shows by the boat load PLUS we have all the really cool newer stuff made in the last 20 years as well. THIS is why today is the golden age of the hobby clearly. We have much more now than ever. What's not to like?
As for picking and choosing, we have a MUCH bigger variety to pick and choose from in the present. What baffles me is why people are unhappy with this situation. Friggen everyone should be a winner but still people are unhappy. I don't get it.
Doughless Interesting about foobs. InterMountain released at least two run of their wonderfully accurate, highly detailed, expensive U18Bs ..... in paint schemes that never existed. They did it on purpose and even advertise them as such. Central Vermont and Southern Pacific are the Famous Image Collector Series. Maybe foobishness doesn't matter. It might even be desirable if you're a freelancer.
Interesting about foobs. InterMountain released at least two run of their wonderfully accurate, highly detailed, expensive U18Bs ..... in paint schemes that never existed. They did it on purpose and even advertise them as such. Central Vermont and Southern Pacific are the Famous Image Collector Series.
Yes, it's true that some people want foobies. David Lehlbach of Tangent Scale Models, who generally strives toward high fidelity to the prototype has made foobies and reported it was because customer wanted them - specifically 4-bay coal cars. Sometimes it's simply supply and demand.
Historically the vast majority of model freight cars have been foobies and models which actually matched a prototype were few. Try to match the Athearn blue box (also RTR) 40' plug door hi-cube appliance box car to real freight cars. I think I was only able to match it to a class of Union Pacific cars, while most if not all of the other paint schemes were foobies. But model train companies had to do this to recover the tooling costs. Things have changed and a much higher percentage of models made now actually match real freight cars than ever.
Speaking of freelance, Tangent made a gondola based on the freelance model RR Allagash. They all sold out.
As one person put it, the model RR hobby is like a salad bar.
riogrande5761 So tell me why today is not a hobby for everyone? Today, model trains of a MUCH wider variety are available and accessible than in the 80's and 90's. Why? Today we have all the stuff that was made in the 1980's and 1990's on Ebay and at train shows by the boat load PLUS we have all the really cool newer stuff made in the last 20 years as well. THIS is why today is the golden age of the hobby clearly. We have much more now than ever. What's not to like? As for picking and choosing, we have a MUCH bigger variety to pick and choose from in the present. What baffles me is why people are unhappy with this situation. Friggen everyone should be a winner but still people are unhappy. I don't get it. As for having a lot more kit builders in the 80's and 90's - of course we did, it was out of necessity. Pretty much the only RTR stuff was Life Like and Tyco train set trains which were toy like compared to Athearn and MDC and other models.
I can easily break it down like this: There are the kit builders (example, me) and there are the guys that buy pretty much everything rtr (example, you). For me, these aren't the golden years of the hobby. For you, they are. I'm still waiting for the days to come back when I could go to the Lhs and get whatever car or locomotive kit I wanted off the shelf! Like that will ever happen again...
Please keep in mind that buying off eBay or waiting for the one trainshow to come around, is NOT the same as touching and buying that impulse item from your local hobby shop so he can keep the doors open.
I'm still waiting for the days to come back when I could go to the Lhs and get whatever car or locomotive kit I wanted off the shelf! Like that will ever happen again... Please keep in mind that buying off eBay or waiting for the one trainshow to come around, is NOT the same as touching and buying that impulse item from your local hobby shop so he can keep the doors open.
It sounds to me a big part of why you are unhappy is due to how we find and buy stuff, not that we have a different mix of products being made; there is definitely a paradigm shift in how we buy things, with a major shift away from B&M stores to online sales.
BTW, I often have to troll Ebay to find what I want too so in that regard, thats part of the game.
riogrande5761 It sounds to me a big part of why you are unhappy is due to how we find and buy stuff, not that we have a different mix of products being made; there is definitely a paradigm shift in how we buy things, with a major shift away from B&M stores to online sales. BTW, I often have to troll Ebay to find what I want too so in that regard, thats part of the game.
I never said that I wasn't happy. I'm just the type that would rather visit a hobby shop than order something and hope the post office delivers it to the right house.
Believe me, I play the eBay game. I have to since there's really no other place to go and buy anything within 40 miles.
Now, if I could go to my lhs, that closed, and buy a kit, that's no longer available, I would be a happy camper!
trwrouteI never said that I wasn't happy. I'm just the type that would rather visit a hobby shop than order something and hope the post office delivers it to the right house. Believe me, I play the eBay game. I have to since there's really no other place to go and buy anything within 40 miles.
Sorry yes, you said the 80's and 90's were the golden age vs. the present.
But it sounds like the lack of an LHS part of why you miss the olden days, not so much was is available.
It's true, time have changed in the way we get our toys. But I have noticed there is an aweful lot of older stuff, stuff in the category you favor, that is availalbe when I browse the tables at the big Timonium train show, and yes, on Ebay. It's more a matter of finding particular models.
I still argue, that in shear terms of variety, there are more choices today then ever.
trwroute riogrande5761 So tell me why today is not a hobby for everyone? Today, model trains of a MUCH wider variety are available and accessible than in the 80's and 90's. Why? Today we have all the stuff that was made in the 1980's and 1990's on Ebay and at train shows by the boat load PLUS we have all the really cool newer stuff made in the last 20 years as well. THIS is why today is the golden age of the hobby clearly. We have much more now than ever. What's not to like? As for picking and choosing, we have a MUCH bigger variety to pick and choose from in the present. What baffles me is why people are unhappy with this situation. Friggen everyone should be a winner but still people are unhappy. I don't get it. As for having a lot more kit builders in the 80's and 90's - of course we did, it was out of necessity. Pretty much the only RTR stuff was Life Like and Tyco train set trains which were toy like compared to Athearn and MDC and other models. I can easily break it down like this: There are the kit builders (example, me) and there are the guys that buy pretty much everything rtr (example, you). For me, these aren't the golden years of the hobby. For you, they are. I'm still waiting for the days to come back when I could go to the Lhs and get whatever car or locomotive kit I wanted off the shelf! Like that will ever happen again... Please keep in mind that buying off eBay or waiting for the one trainshow to come around, is NOT the same as touching and buying that impulse item from your local hobby shop so he can keep the doors open.
trwrouteAlso, the golden age, as you put it, for the hobby was in the 80's and 90's. We had a lot of kit builders and a small amount of rtr. You could pick and choose. It really was a hobby for everyone.
That Golden Age is dead. Why, because it wasn't the golden age for most. Kits are dying because most people in the hobby want RTR. Locomotive kits are gone. BB and Roundhouse/MDC are at train shows for $5 - $10 because over 10 years after production stopped most people still don't want them.
Most folks who like kits want better, more correctly detailed (and thus more complicated) kits. They're around, but they cost more and are usually small runs for a small market.
I hope Accurail lasts a long time because it represents a low cost line I think the hobby needs. But it does so with plastic wheels and cheap couplers along with the molded on details.
But why should Athearn make more kits - there's still a life time supply.
Personally, I buy some of everything. But RTR rules because getting a layout built is what I want more than building kits. Once that happens, I will start building kits (and scratch building) - but that's me, building kits is my second hobby.
Paul
IRONROOSTERThat Golden Age is dead. Why, because it wasn't the golden age for most. Kits are dying because most people in the hobby want RTR. Locomotive kits are gone.
I think you nailed it. 30 years ago I remember an article about adding a speed recorder to a loco truck. At the time I was thinking, "What is a speed recorder and why do I need add it to a loco with molded on grab irons?"
Now the speed recorder, added grab irons and fan detail is there, along with uncoupling levers and MU hoses. The cost is a lot more, which is a big deal for some but not all.
The upside of all the detail is it looks really cool and we don't have to have any craftsmans skills to own it. The downside is that when we go to caboose heaven, the extra cost is lost and our loved trains go to the dumpster.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley