Metal wheels

[Medina1128]

I don't know if it was covered in earlier responses, but another thing to consider is that scale width wheels are temperamental about trackwork. It has to be darn near perfect.

[TooTall606]

I was surprised at the number of responses to my question. My thanks to all of you for the valuable information. 

[rrinker]

I also use the Truck Tuner tool when I replace wheelsets. Mine all roll quite freely. If they don't, they are possibly the wrong axle length.

The Tool from Micro Mark is the one to get, the one from Reboxx is so short as to be useless on most common trucks like Athearn and Accurail.

No gurantees that the Reboxx chart is 100% accurate - a bunch of years ago I found a mistake when the recommend length was so long it wouldn;t possibly fit in the truck. It pays to double check the old wheelsets with a caliper. I notified them and I'm pretty sure they updated the chart for that paritcular brand - but it was 12-13 years ago and I don't remember specifically what it was. Possibly the Life Like (not P2K) Northeast caboose.

                                                 --Randy

 

[mbinsewi]

I started using P2K wheel sets, they were cheap and worked good.  When they went away, I switched to IM, and there I'll stay.

Mike.

[riogrande5761]

I'm sure Sam at Kadee is a great guy, and most of us would agree that Kadee couplers are most modelers #1 choice and are a great product.  The wheel sets perhaps once were a "go-to" replacement wheel product but it's clear the consensus is there are definitely better choices. 

I'm not convinced to switch back to Kadee's and take a chance when the cost is roughly the same for wheel sets with metal axles and machined wheels.  I'm not a big fan of plastic axles.  If Kadee has "quietly" improved their wheel sets, then they are doing themselves no favors by not letting customers know.  Especially when the perception seems to be somewhat negative these days.

For me Intermountain and ExactRail both make top notch wheelset there day and right now they are my go-to makers primarily.

[Carolina Northern]

After being in N since 73, I recently started to work my way into HO.

Several things shocked me. One of the big ones was how bad the rolling abiliities of the wheelsets in HO were. The trucks and wheels in the famous blue boxes need a lot of help to get to N Scale standards. 

I bought some Kadee wheelsets and was unpleasantly suprised at the relative roughness of the surfaces. In the blue box trucks, they actually roll worse than the supplied wheels.

In N, I'd have just bought some Fox Mountain wheels and been done. This thread is pointing me to some possibles. I'll get some Intermountain on order(no good hobby shops left in reaonable distance).

One suprise is that the Bachmann Silver Series rolls better than any other I've gotten in stock form - just have to change those couplers.

 

Don

[SeeYou190]

hon30critter

Rapido tests their wheel sets by giving them a good hard spin. They are supposed to spin for 20 seconds!

.

I had this old Kadee truck on my desk when I read you post, so I picked it up and gave it a spin. It spun for 11 seconds.

.

.

-Kevin

.

[hon30critter]

Rapido tests their wheel sets by giving them a good hard spin. They are supposed to spin for 20 seconds! There is a club in California (can't remember the name) that uses the same standard.

I'm lucky if I can get my wheel sets to rotate for 10 - 15 seconds but my cars seem to perform well on the club's portable layout. I've only tried to run 10 - 12 cars in a train though. Longer trains would obviously benefit from freer rolling wheels.

Dave

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

A few thoughts and opinions, in no particular order:

REBOXX - only makes code 88 wheels and their axle lengths for Kadee sprung trucks are incorrect.

I use mostly sprung metal trucks from Kadee, refitted with Intermountain code 110 metal wheels. They roll smooth, track well, add weight down low. AND, they have a lower rolling resistance than most any plastic rigid truck/wheel combination, even after using the axle reamer. I did extensive testing of this years ago.

The sprung feature adds equalization, which I believe is important, others will disagree. But it keeps all the wheels on the rails all the time......

I will not use code 88 wheels. In my view it just trades the wheel appearance for the big gap of the sideframes that are too wide. While maybe out of scale, the long standing industry/NMRA standard 110 wheel and sideframe standards appear well proportioned. Can't fix one without fixing both in my view.

And, code 88 wheels are not as smooth thru my Atlas Custom Line turnouts, which are reasonably close to NMRA standards, and a few scratch built special turnouts which are even closer to NMRA standards.

Correct axle length is important, and there are lots of quality metal wheel sets from various manufacturers in various axle lengths to fit most any truck you need a wheels for.

I'm not a big fan of the Kadee wheel set for several reasons - the soft "iron" wheels with the black coating as others have commented on and the soft plastic axle.

I do like their new HGC trucks for some applications.

I don't worry about details like the cooling fins of old style cast wheels, or the fact that the working springs are too "thin".

I consider preformance first in those areas. Anyway, you can't see all that when the trains are moving......

I do install the Kadee brake shoes on many other brands of trucks.

Sheldon 

[rrinker]

 I've used only P2K wheels - mainly because prior to Walthers, a 12 pack could be had from MB Klein (Modeltrainstuff) for $3.99. A fraction of the price of other brands. Going forward, I will probably use Intermountain - we get a decent deal on 100 packs through the club. Plus they are easier to add resistors to for block detection. The P2K ones, with their plastic axles, are a bit more complicated and use more of the conductive silver paint - which isn't cheap. Very few of my cars don't fit the P2K wheels - most are Accurail, Bowser, or Athearn. A few that probably don't fit the axle length of P2K wheelsets already come with metal wheels - Kadee cars, Branchline kits, and of course P2K kits already have P2K wheels. I have ONE caboose that has Reboxx wheels because it has a very odd axle lenth - a Life Like (not P2K) caboose.

                          --Randy

 

[SeeYou190]

bearman

Kadee and call them and ask which wheels you need. Sam the answer Man is a great resource.

.

I completely agree on both points. I met Sam at the National Train Show last year. He is one great guy.

.

10% of my freight cars are made by Kadee. 98% of my freight cars ride on Kadee trucks, 100% of my freight cars ride on Kadee wheels. 100% of my entire fleet has Kadee couplers.

.

There is no substitute.

.

My best formula is Shinohara (Walthers) code 83 turnouts, Tortoise switch motors, Atlas code 83 track, Kadee Couplers, Kadee trucks with code 110 wheels.

.

I dream of a world where Kadee also manufactures code 83 power routing DCC friendly turnouts and track. If anyone can make it perfect, Kadee can.

.

These are the parts that really matter. They are the mechanical components of your layout. Everything above the truck is just eye candy really. Never scrimp on the track, trucks, couplers, and wheels.

.

Compromise elsewhere.

.

-Kevin

.

[mvlandsw]

   If you let the Kadee blackening wear off in regular operation you get a narrow ring of silver on the wheel tread that looks close in size to a prototype wheel. The part that remains black is not as visible and the wheel looks narrower than it really is. This gives a better appearance without the problems that code 88 wheels can cause on certain switches.

   I've often thought to run a string of cars continously in a loop to see how long it would take to wear the blackening off but I haven't done it.

  It may be possible to make something to protect the outer edge of the wheel from the Dremel wire brush and shine them up quickly.

[Graham Line]

Paul, have not asked Kadee to verify this but my impression is that Kadee wheelsets are now made of a much finer sinter material than in decades past, and they are less inclined to become dirt magnets. On the other hand, the slight curve in the axle tip (instead of a straight cone) means they work best in Kadee trucks. Kadee often makes incremental and unpublicized improvements in its products.

[peahrens]

I decided to try code 110 33" Intermountain and Proto 2000 for my 40' (mostly) freight cars.  I recommend a digital caliper ($25 or less, often cheap at HF) so you can measure the original axle length and then compare.  

Try your original truck w/wheelsets on a downslope and then compare after installing the replacements.  Just check for good rolling.  You will typically see a nice improvement.

I paid attention to the Reboxx site awhile, looking at the listings of original axle lengths and their recommended (close) substitutes.  But when I did my replacements and testing, I found that often somewhat shorter axle lengths worked well, making close length matching more of a theoretical issue in that case.  (I can see where too long an axle could cause an issue).

I settled on IM 33" as my go-to wheelsets.  I obtained some Proto 2000 with the old fashioned slotted wheel back slots (I forget the terminology) for older vintage cars.  Not that I really notice.  To me, both of these are fine.  I do buy the IM in the 100 pack, maybe $0.65 per axle last time. 

I did not try the Kadees, partly because I understood that the wheel treads were scintered metal (vs. turned), a potential contributor to dirt adhesion.  Maybe just a theoretical issue, and perhaps not even how they are now made.

I have not painted the face of my wheels, though I should.  It's not yet on my to-do list, so that will not be soon.

[BRAKIE]

I started my change over from plastic to metal with P2K wheelsets and mid stream I changed to Intermountain simply because they out rolled my P2K wheels.

[saronaterry]

I give away Kadee wheelsets. Love the couplers, though! I just don't care for the soft plastic axle or whatever it is.

Intermountain on all my 350+ freight cars. A mix of cd110 and 88. I haven't noticed a problem.

 I highly second the truck tuner!! Get it and use it.

Terry

[riogrande5761]

Onewolf

Dave, Thanks for the comprehensive information/response. How do Walthers Proto wheelsets compare? Thanks. Doug

Agree with Onewolf, nice informative info summary on wheels.

I believe Walthers Proto wheels come on all their RTR rolling stock now for the past several years.  I haven't looked at them critically but they seem fine.

Re: Code 88 wheels...  I haven't kept track but some RTR cars come with code 88 wheels out of the box.  As I recall, some Genesis cars were offered that way for example.  I can't recall if they are standard on ExactRail models or not.

 

 

[doctorwayne]

TooTall606

I have several kits to build and would like to replace the plastic wheels with metal....

Why?

dknelson

 .....But Code 88 wheels look more to scale and photograph very well.  They are growing in popularity.

I agree that those wheels look better, Dave, but they only emphasise the overly-wide sideframes on the majority of the trucks available.

dknelson

....There are also exact scale wheels made, I think by North West Short Line and maybe others.  Both width and flanges are exactly to scale.  It is quite a difference in appearance!  That really does call for track to exact standards as well, which in turn calls for retro-fitting locomotives, and so on....

These look really good, but require scale-width trucks (Proto-87) to avoid the issue noted above.

dknelson

....Intermountain has many advocates for their smooth rolling quality, and they also feature various axle lengths because different brands of trucks sometimes need different axle lengths....

Axle length (and axle-tip profile) is one of the most crucial factors for wheels, original or replacement, whether plastic or metal, as it's the interface between the axle ends and the pockets in the sideframes in which they're seated that determines rolling qualities.

dknelson

...You'll want to paint the wheels....

Definitely!  Even prototype wheels right from the manufacturer are rust-covered.  On modern cars with roller bearings, the treads are polished through use, while the wheel faces, backs, and axles remain rust-coloured, and, of course, with some accumulation of dirt.
If you're modelling an era where solid bearings were in use, the wheel faces usually became covered in oil from the journal boxes, and, in-turn, then became covered with dirt.  The wheel backs and axles remained rust colored and dirty, pretty-much like the trucks with roller bearings.

dknelson

...In addition to metal wheelsets, which are a good idea, and a wheel painting mask or two, you might also want to get a TruckTuner from MicroMark.  This tool fits into the bearing openings in the trucks and smooths out the bearing openings, so the wheels turn very smoothly.  It is surprising how many plastic trucks have rough bearing interiors and benefit from the TruckTuner.  As I posted elsewhere recently, when I readied a whole stack of Accurail kits recently for building, every Accurail truck needed the TruckTuner; I could actually feel the roughness being smoothed away.

I find it much easier to brush-paint wheelsets, as they can be easily done with the wheelsets still in the trucks ands even with the trucks still on the car.

The truck tuner is a very good idea, and it should be considered one of those essential tools that every modeller should have.

While I have quite a few cars with metal wheels, I'm not a great fan of them.  They make a lot more noise than plastic ones, and those shiny treads really draw attention to the overly-wide wheels.
I will admit that the current offerings of trucks with metal wheels (Tangent, Tahoe, etc.) do roll better than many of the older cars with plastic wheelsets, but, in my opinion, that's due totally to a better-matched interface between the truck sideframes and the axle ends.  Mis-matching wheelsets to the trucks you have may yield disappointing operational results.

Wayne

[ROBERT PETRICK]

I assume the OP is HO scale, of course. 

But for any N-scalers wanting to glean information from this thread: make sure the axle length of the replacement wheel set matches the car.

I don't know if this applies to the HOers.

Robert

[Onewolf]

Dave, Thanks for the comprehensive information/response. How do Walthers Proto wheelsets compare? Thanks. Doug

[riogrande5761]

bearman

Kadee and call them and ask which wheels you need.  Sam the answer Man is a great resource.

For couplers I totally agree, but for wheel sets, maybe not.

Check out what Dave has to say:

  Kadee wheels look good, but many modelers do not care for the brownish "coating" that Kadee puts on its wheels, finding that it tends to wear off the treads in such a way that the wheels don't track as well.  ...  I would probably not use Kadee wheels if I was not willing to do this extra step.  So think about that.  The wheel faces are also shiny brown but not as shiny as Intermountain. 

Also, Kadee's wheels are reportedly sintered metal which may be more likely to pick up dirt.

[dknelson]

TooTall606

I have several kits to build and would like to replace the plastic wheels with metal. I have seen a few brands, Kadee, InterMountain, Tangent and would like some feedback on which may be a good choice. I see different wheel codes are available, 88, 110. I am operating on Atlas code 83 track with Peco turnouts. Thanks. 

The code for wheels refers to wheel width (while for track code refers to track height); the "standard" HO wheel width is the 110 - that width meets NMRA standards and should operate on and be consistent with commercial track that meets NMRA standards which I assume your Code 83 track does. 

Code 88 wheels are sometimes called "semi-scale" - the wheels are thinner than NMRA standards but not quite as thin as genuine scale width would be.  The flangers are also a bit deeper than actual scale.  But Code 88 wheels look more to scale and photograph very well.  They are growing in popularity.

The NMRA compliance and standards experts warn that Code 88 wheels, which are narrower than NMRA standards, can pose problems on turnouts, crossings and other track work that is within NMRA standards tolerances, and they cite measurements chapter and verse that indicate that, yeah, issues exist or can exist.  But many guys use Code 88 wheels and regular commercial track and report no problems.  But many commercial turnouts do not meet NMRA standards either so it is possible that some combination of Code 88 wheel and your track could be incompatible.  Cars with code 88 wheels can also be a bit tricker to put on the track by hand.  

I say .. why not try some on a car or two?  

There are also exact scale wheels made, I think by North West Short Line and maybe others.  Both width and flanges are exactly to scale.  It is quite a difference in appearance!  That really does call for track to exact standards as well, which in turn calls for retro-fitting locomotives, and so on.

  Code 88 is a good compromise between the wide Code 110 and exact scale, and again I know guys who say their Code 88 wheels operate flawlessly.

Let's talk Code 110 when it comes to what make of wheel since it is the most common.  Intermountain has many advocates for their smooth rolling quality, and they also feature various axle lengths because different brands of trucks sometimes need different axle lengths.  Plus they are readily available.  The wheel treads have a dark metallic look which does not have the bright shine of a prototype wheel tread in current use.  The wheel faces are shiny and need to be toned down with weathering.  There are commercial "masks" available for wheels both 33" and 36" so that the face of the wheel but not the tread is painted. 

You'll want to paint the wheels.  Intermountain is certainly a solid choice.

Kadee.  Kadee wheels look good, but many modelers do not care for the brownish "coating" that Kadee puts on its wheels, finding that it tends to wear off the treads in such a way that the wheels don't track as well.  It is even darker than the Intermountain wheels on the treads  I take my Kadee wheels and use a wire brush in my Dremel tool to wear off the coating on the wheel treads; which then shine like the prototype, which I like.  I would probably not use Kadee wheels if I was not willing to do this extra step.  So think about that.  The wheel faces are also shiny brown but not as shiny as Intermountain.  I also paint my Kadee wheels in the wheel painting mask.

Walthers, Bachmann, North West Short Line -- there are many makes of metal 33" and 36" wheels for HO in addition to them.  I have used them all and they're fine.  Tangent cars are nice and I am sure their wheels are too.  Sometimes my decision is based on: 1) what does the LHS have when I need wheels, and 2) what's on sale.  But again some guys don't like Kadee wheels.  I do but I am willing to do the work on Kadee wheels.  

One variant.  Before around 1950 or so some wheels had a sort of swirling pattern on the back face of the wheel, supposedly to help dissipate heat during braking. If you model pre 1950 look for those.  After the mid 1950s such wheels were mostly seen on MOW equipment and not in interchange.  Kadee offers such wheels.  You can even see fine cast on lettering on the wheel face, just as on the prototype.  

33" or 36"? -- note that the paint masks for wheels I refer to above come in two sizes for those two sizes of wheels.  Back when I was a beginner this was easy: 33" was a freight wheel; 36" was a passenger car wheel (or so we were told).  No longer.  As freight cars got heavier, once they hit the 100 ton limit the trucks were larger with more springs and began to use 36" wheels.  I think some intermodal cars with drawbar connections use both sizes.  And some intermodal cars use smaller sizes for clearance.  But there are now plenty of modern freight cars that use 36" wheels.

Rule of thumb - if the truck shows three springs rather than 2, I assume it is a 100 ton truck and calls for 36" wheels.  There are exceptions to this but in the absence of actual info I go with the rule of thumb.

In addition to metal wheelsets, which are a good idea, and a wheel painting mask or two, you might also want to get a TruckTuner from MicroMark.  This tool fits into the bearing openings in the trucks and smooths out the bearing openings, so the wheels turn very smoothly.  It is surprising how many plastic trucks have rough bearing interiors and benefit from the TruckTuner.  As I posted elsewhere recently, when I readied a whole stack of Accurail kits recently for building, every Accurail truck needed the TruckTuner; I could actually feel the roughness being smoothed away.

Dave Nelson.

PS Amended Posting: I myself have not had problems with my Kadee wheels and I wonder if my use of the wire brush in a Dremel tool to polish the wheel treads (which I do largely for cosmetic reasons) smooths the sintered metal so that it does not pick up dirt?  My hunch is that it does.  I am aware that running the Kadee wheels removes some of the tread, I would want it to remove ALL the tread (even if removing just a narrow portion of the tread could look better) because I do not want any kind of ridge, no matter how small, anywhere on the tread: NMRA track standards have enough leeway that ANY portion of the 110 wheel tread could meet the rail surface.

DN   

 

[7j43k]

When talking about replacement wheelsets, Reboxx is a company that should never be excluded.  They make wheelsets with an assortment of axle lengths, for a perfect fit.

Here's the first page of their 33" wheel replacement chart:

 

 

I recommend going to:

 

http://reboxx.com

and learning more.

 

 

Ed

[NVSRR]

Exact rail has them too. Atlas too.   It depends partly on era.   Tangent, exactrail, and intermountain are more 60s foward.  Kadee is more 20s to 60s.  There is also the question of what size wheels go on each car. 33 or 36 or 28 inch dia.    As for .80 to .110. That is tread width. And more of a visual appearence.  Both have pros and cons.   Axle length and the truck manufacture can have compatability issues.         That is a start, others should be able to fill in the gaps better

 

Wolfie

[bearman]

Kadee and call them and ask which wheels you need.  Sam the answer Man is a great resource.

[TooTall606]

I have several kits to build and would like to replace the plastic wheels with metal. I have seen a few brands, Kadee, InterMountain, Tangent and would like some feedback on which may be a good choice. I see different wheel codes are available, 88, 110. I am operating on Atlas code 83 track with Peco turnouts. Thanks.