Hello everyone. I was just reading an old article in an old train book that talked about the various options of securing your tracks to your layout. Of these options they include nailing it down, pinning it down with sewing pins and/or gluing it down. I personally went with pinning mine down with sewing pins which was easy because the layout is built on top of a one and a half inch thick foam board like those used to insulate houses. So far it's worked very well. When one of the pins gets loose I just dip it in Elmer's white glue and stick it back in place and it doesn't give me anymore trouble. So what other methods are there if any ?.
I use track nails into pre-drilled holes in the plywood subroadbed.
Paul
I use track nails as well. Easy to hide when painting and ballasting, and it is a lot easier to shift and relocate track with nails than it is with caulk. The one downside to track nails is that they show up when using a mini-cam to video your trains running around the layout.
Rich
Alton Junction
Adhesive - I prefer DAP Alex Plus Acrylic Latex Caulk.
I spread it thin with a putty knife and it allows ~45 mins. of adjustment time before it starts setting up. Cures in 8 hrs (although I let it go for 24) and holds VERY well but remains flexible; unlike Elmer's glue. Can be removed with a slow, steady, prying up motion using a stiff putty knife but it does take some effort. Been very happy with it.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Initially, i didn't secure the track down to the cork. I then added wet water that held the ballst down and kept the track secure. Along a larger cuve, I drilled holes for ME track spikes.
Firm believer in caulk, after the first time I tried it (being skeptical of just reading about things without having tried it myself), was the last time I used nails.
It's fast, there's no chance to damage the track with an errent hammer blow, you can lay track and not affect equipment already on the layout (no earthquakes), and done right (VERY thin bead - it should never ooze up between the ties), it is easy to remove track without damage, even turnouts.
I do my sighting down the track and/or application of straighedges and templates before the caulk sets up - perhaps the only disdvantage is if you do let the cualk set up and then need to align a section, you will have to pull it up and put down a fresh bead of caulk to try again. Aligning as you go avoids this.
And, it attaches the track to the roadbed without any physical connections like a nail to transmit sound to the next layer down.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Firm believer in caulk, after the first time I tried it (being skeptical of just reading about things without having tried it myself), was the last time I used nails.
I do, Rich. The DAP Alex Plus will adhere to pretty much anything:
I've used caulk for my past 3-4 layouts and I realy like it. Beige works well for desert layouts with dirt ballast and it holds the track but still allows adjustments if necessary.
I'm still old school I use 1/2" HO spikes from Micro Engineering every third tie. The spikes and ballast glue holds the track firmly in place.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
With respect to using the DAP Alex Plus caulk method, what is the "set time" in general needed and should you pin (t-pins) the track in place after applying the caulk and positioning the track segment?
Also- is there a "too much vs too little" rule regarding caulk application?
And one further question- should switches be caulked as well or left floating between regular track segments?
Cedarwoodron
cedarwoodron With respect to using the DAP Alex Plus caulk method, what is the "set time" in general needed and should you pin (t-pins) the track in place after applying the caulk and positioning the track segment? Also- is there a "too much vs too little" rule regarding caulk application? And one further question- should switches be caulked as well or left floating between regular track segments? Cedarwoodron
I use caulk on the straight and diverging routes just past the frog, being careful not to foul the underrail electrical connections. It holds the turnout just fine when soldered to the other tracks that are also secured to the roadbed.
AFIAK, I wouldn't want to use a nail too close to the frog either.
I think either method of track securing works well. When I use 3/4 plywood or MDF as the subroadbed, I end up bending nails or working too hard to drive the nail into the wood when securing the roadbed.
- Douglas
I use Atlas track nails to affix my track to the roadbed. The nails hold the track securely. Additionally, I nail my roadbed (Flexxbed) to the plywood base with wire nails so I can make changes to my track layout easily and neatly. If the track does not have nail holes such as the Peco code 83 flextrack I use on part of my layout, I simply drill out the ties about 6" apart with a #60 drill bit to accomodate the Atlas nails.
Yes, caulk for cork to base, then caulk for track to cork.
I am strongly considering homasote (the milled roadbed stuff, not big sheets of it) for my next layout, not sure how well caulk will work with that. I have some sample pieces I should try. Ideally, I'd use homasote AND cork, my not too scientific tests had cork + homasote on plywood quieter than cork or homasote alone. The more layers of varying density... however it elevates the track way too much even for a main line to have both materials stacked up. The caulk adhesive layer may accomplish almost as much as an entire layer of a second roadbed.
On turnouts, I place the most caulk near the frog end. The one place you do not want anythign sticky is around the throwbar area. Given that is using under table switch motors, you typically have a hole drilled right there anyway, there's not much place to put caulk anyway. I do try to get a little between the throwbar and the end of the turnout though so that end is held.
There is definitely a right and wrong amount of caulk. I've been using a clear, which comes out white but turns clear as it cures. I will probably use a grey that somewhat matches my ballast color going forward. With the clear, the 'right' amount is to spread it out so the surface looks shiny, hard to tell it's even white at all. To get this, I cut the nozzle of the caulk tube as small as I can get it - there are rings around them where to cut for certain bead sizes, but the smallest is too big for railroad use. I need to use a piece of solid copper wire to poke through the inner foil seal because a hole big enough to run a nail or screwdriver in to piece the seal is going to be way too big. Less it more. If you look at my old layout, the 8x12 double track donut one, ALL of the roadbed and ALL of the track, except for the yard, took only 1 tube of caulk.
It seems that this topic is quite similar to an earlier thread (copy n paste if link won't work): http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/242400/2698675.aspx
The bottom line: pick a method, try it and and move on. This applies to scenery, building structures, and the fastest way to send me unwanted freight cars!
I have plywood sub roadbed. I use wire nails. I never hit them directly with a hammer. I use a nail set and hit it with the hammer instead to avoid damage to the rails or my fingers. If I want to realign the track I can very easily by using a small nail puller to remove the wire nails. Often I can reuse the same nails.
At least during the early phases, I am a firm believer in using track nails to secure cork and/or spikes to secure track to wood or homasote. So that means foam is not on the menu for subroadbed.
As it happens, I have had to tear down two layouts before they got too far along and I was able to save roughly a thousand dollars of track to save in very good condition and re-use, because it was easy to pull up the spikes or track nailes and no adhesive had been used. I personally doubt I would have been able to save it all undamaged if I would have used adhesive.
I also like nails and spikes because it is easy to make minor adjustments to track after securing because it isn't glued. It's simple to tweak a bit or remove nails and move. It's just so much more flexible to lay track and adjust it with nails and spikes.
So what if you glued your track down and it was crooked or uneven. Are you good enough with adhesives to get it right and "dead-nuts" while the glue is drying? If so, your better than I am, and I'm not too bad. I'm very picky about how my track is laid and I like having as much control over that process as possible. OK sure, after I'm satisfied and have eyeballed it and tested it and given it a shake down, I can ballast, secure that with adhesive and pull any visible track nails out. By then yeah, its permanent. Put a fork in it and "Bob's your uncle".
Definitely the track nail/spike method has saved me a lot of money by letting me re-use track too. But it's your money and your RR. Your the boss.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 At least during the early phases, I am a firm believer in using track nails to secure cork and/or spikes to secure track to wood or homasote. So that means foam is not on the menu for subroadbed. As it happens, I have had to tear down two layouts before they got too far along and I was able to save roughly a thousand dollars of track to save in very good condition and re-use, because it was easy to pull up the spikes or track nailes and no adhesive had been used. I personally doubt I would have been able to save it all undamaged if I would have used adhesive. I also like nails and spikes because it is easy to make minor adjustments to track after securing because it isn't glued. It's simple to tweak a bit or remove nails and move. It's just so much more flexible to lay track and adjust it with nails and spikes. So what if you glued your track down and it was crooked or uneven. Are you good enough with adhesives to get it right and "dead-nuts" while the glue is drying? If so, your better than I am, and I'm not too bad. I'm very picky about how my track is laid and I like having as much control over that process as possible. OK sure, after I'm satisfied and have eyeballed it and tested it and given it a shake down, I can ballast, secure that with adhesive and pull any visible track nails out. By then yeah, its permanent. Put a fork in it and "Bob's your uncle". Definitely the track nail/spike method has saved me a lot of money by letting me re-use track too. But it's your money and your RR. Your the boss.
Jim, this has been discussed before. Most folks who use caulk use the latex caulk product, not silicone. Latex caulk can be easily removed from track with water and a gentle scrubbing without damaging the track.....and that's considering that the caulk tends to not come up with the track at all, if a thin enough bead is used.
Certainly there is a bit more work to cleaning up a bit of caulk off of track then just pulling up nails, but I think its pretty hard to damage track by using caulk. Its about as easy to damage track uplifting it from caulked roadbed as it is to damage track when installing it with nails and a hammer.
There is a correct way and an incorrect way to install and remove track with either method. They're about equal, IMO, and chosen based soley upon personal preference.
rrinker Yes, caulk for cork to base, then caulk for track to cork. I am strongly considering homasote (the milled roadbed stuff, not big sheets of it) for my next layout, not sure how well caulk will work with that. On turnouts, I place the most caulk near the frog end. The one place you do not want anythign sticky is around the throwbar area. I do try to get a little between the throwbar and the end of the turnout though so that end is held. There is definitely a right and wrong amount of caulk. I've been using a clear, which comes out white but turns clear as it cures. I will probably use a grey that somewhat matches my ballast color going forward. --Randy
I am strongly considering homasote (the milled roadbed stuff, not big sheets of it) for my next layout, not sure how well caulk will work with that.
On turnouts, I place the most caulk near the frog end. The one place you do not want anythign sticky is around the throwbar area. I do try to get a little between the throwbar and the end of the turnout though so that end is held.
There is definitely a right and wrong amount of caulk. I've been using a clear, which comes out white but turns clear as it cures. I will probably use a grey that somewhat matches my ballast color going forward.
Doughless Jim, this has been discussed before. Most folks who use caulk use the latex caulk product, not silicone. Latex caulk can be easily removed from track with water and a gentle scrubbing without damaging the track.....and that's considering that the caulk tends to not come up with the track at all, if a thin enough bead is used.
We have and I haven't changed my tune - I stand by my arguements based on my own experience on 3 layouts so far. I really like my methods and don't like my track being glued down during early phases. It's just too easy (if there can be such a thing) to tweak or revise. No muss no fuss.
Firstly, no water and no scrubbing necessary (no mess) with track nails and spikes, no "risk" even of damaging even some of it lifting up. No clean clean up. No fuss.
Its about as easy to damage track uplifting it from caulked roadbed as it is to damage track when installing it with nails and a hammer.
No, absolutely not. Hammer with a nail set you will not damage track or ties. I've never done it in 3 layouts and I am clumsy. To pull out, simply grab the head of the nail with needle nose pliers and pull. If it's stubborn and you can't get a grip, take a very fine flat head screw driver to pull it up a bit and then pull out with needle nose.
They're about equal, IMO, and chosen based soley upon personal preference.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Thanks.
Last layout I started with foam and caulk and switched to Homasote and spikes halfway through.I'm never going back. I know I'm "against the trend," but phooey on gluing track down, and double phooey on foam board.
And I don't use a hammer, a needle nose pliers works fine for the spikes. I can lay a yard in an hour or two, wire it, and run on it the same afternoon.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
riogrande5761 Doughless Jim, this has been discussed before. Most folks who use caulk use the latex caulk product, not silicone. Latex caulk can be easily removed from track with water and a gentle scrubbing without damaging the track.....and that's considering that the caulk tends to not come up with the track at all, if a thin enough bead is used. We have and I haven't changed my tune - I stand by my arguements based on my own experience on 3 layouts so far. I really like my methods and don't like my track being glued down during early phases. It's just too easy (if there can be such a thing) to tweak or revise. No muss no fuss. Firstly, no water and no scrubbing necessary (no mess) with track nails and spikes, no "risk" even of damaging even some of it lifting up. No clean clean up. No fuss. Its about as easy to damage track uplifting it from caulked roadbed as it is to damage track when installing it with nails and a hammer. No, absolutely not. Hammer with a nail set you will not damage track or ties. I've never done it in 3 layouts and I am clumsy. To pull out, simply grab the head of the nail with needle nose pliers and pull. If it's stubborn and you can't get a grip, take a very fine flat head screw driver to pull it up a bit and then pull out with needle nose. They're about equal, IMO, and chosen based soley upon personal preference. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Thanks.
I didn't think I was arguing an opinion of superiority or was searching for validation of a technique, I was trying to point out that there is nothing inherently damaging to track by installing or removing it when using latex caulk. It only damaging if its installed or removed incorrectly with caulk, just like nails.
I think learning how to use which method the right way is a matter of preference because there are other factors that go into it. What's important is to educate the readers about the benefits and pitfalls of each, which I think was at the root of the OPs question.
But considering I'll be using homabed on homasote on ply this time, I might find that using nails instead of caulk works better for me.
Bayfield Transfer RailwayAnd I don't use a hammer, a needle nose pliers works fine for the spikes. I can lay a yard in an hour or two, wire it, and run on it the same afternoon.
I fully agree. I favor either a five or six inch needle nose pliers with or without a slot in the tip.
Doughless Agreed about grey caulk. I've been meaning to find some.
Agreed about grey caulk. I've been meaning to find some.
I found gray, and darned-near every other color at Tru-Value Hardware.
Jim
BRAKIE Bayfield Transfer Railway And I don't use a hammer, a needle nose pliers works fine for the spikes. I can lay a yard in an hour or two, wire it, and run on it the same afternoon. I fully agree. I favor either a five or six inch needle nose pliers with or without a slot in the tip.
Bayfield Transfer Railway And I don't use a hammer, a needle nose pliers works fine for the spikes. I can lay a yard in an hour or two, wire it, and run on it the same afternoon.
How do you drive spikes into 3/4 ply to secure your roadbed to the ply? Do you hit the spike really hard with the hammer, cuz I can barely drive anything into 3/4 ply or 3/4 MDF without bending it.
I know track to roadbed is different, but as far as taking it up and changing radius or correcting mistakes, you have to move the roadbed too, so you have to renail the roadbed.
DoughlessHow do you drive spikes into 3/4 ply to secure your roadbed to the ply? Do you hit the spike really hard with the hammer, cuz I can barely drive anything into 3/4 ply or 3/4 MDF without bending it.
I use 1" x 12" x 12' top grade finished pine board for my ISLs without roadbed. I use five or six inch needle nose pliers to spike with since the 1/2 inch spikes sinks easily into the pine..
Now,I spike nothing in place until I am happy with what I see and if I want a change I just pull the spikes out. The scenery and ballast comes after two or three operation sessions.
Larry: I am intrigued. Can you perhaps, post a picture or two of your track/roadbed assembly? Do you rip the 1xbys to 4 or 5 inches wide? Thanks.
Old Fat Robert
This thread is the first time I've ever heard of anyone using a hammer to drive track nails. I use full-size blunt-nose pliers, and simply push the nails into place, whether the track is on cork, soft pine roadbed or plywood.On the original portion of the layout, I put down the cork using yellow carpenter's glue, then lightly tapped in 2½" nails every 6"-or-so. The next day, the nails were removed, usually by-hand.When I added a partial second level to the layout, I used contact cement to put down the cork, and where flex track and ready-made turnouts were used, track nails. In several places, I also used Central Valley tie strips, and put them down using contact cement, and also used it to secure the rails to the ties. All rail joints were soldered (the rail for the tie strips into 12' or 15' lengths prior to installation), then any necessary gaps cut later using a cut-off disc with a flexible shaft tool.Even track that's been soldered together and ballasted is easy to alter or remove simply by pulling the track nails using the same pliers that installed them, then re-heating any soldered joints and pushing the rail joiner past the joint. The area can then be sprayed generously with wet water, and after a few minutes, the track and tunouts lifted using a suitable scraper or putty knife. Any excess ballast stuck to the track can be washed off, and the track re-used, as illustrated below...
Pretty-well all of my industrial sidings have the track laid directly atop the plywood, as do all staging yards, and all (except that on CV ties) is held in place with track nails, pushed in using pliers.
Since a lot of this work was done at night, using a hammer would likely have instigated another use of a hammer, resulting in the original hammerer being cold-cocked/caulked.
Wayne
Old Fat Robert Larry: I am intrigued. Can you perhaps, post a picture or two of your track/roadbed assembly? Do you rip the 1xbys to 4 or 5 inches wide? Thanks. Old Fat Robert
Robert,When I start construction on my newest ISL I will post photos in the weekly photo fun.
I will say this..I don't use roadbed since I'm modeling a industrial area where all track is at ground level.
.
I don't use nails anymore, but when I did I held them with a pair of needle nose pliers and whacked them with a tack hammer. As long as the jaws are thicker than the height of the rail, the hammer will hit the pliers before it can hit the track. After making sure the track was aligned the way I wanted it, I'd finish with a nail set.
These days I'm using caulk to hold the track to the Homasote roadbed and wood glue to hold the roadbed to the plywood subroadbed. I lay out center lines on the plywood and carefully glue down the roadbed. Track is held for curing with Ribbonrail alignment gauges. Do it right the first time, no adjustment needed.
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