Last year I purchased three of the new DCC 90' turntables, and none worked. Two went back to Walthers for repairs and came back 4 months later. The third, I just gave up on. They worked for a bit, then crapped out. I have since had a friend remotor and configure to run on analog with simple DC power packs with my eyballs setting the track lineup....Much better and more enjoyable. The DCC concept was not necessary as most folks would stand in front of facility to operate. Who needs a hand held throttle to run it? the programming was quite sensitive and time consumimng and basic design was poor.
The structure itself is quite good and if you can find an older 90' turntable (non DCC), go for it. I have two of these...a 90' and 130' and they are just fine.
I had heard that Walthers pulled the remaing 90' DCC turntables, but I am not sure. If you were considering purchasing the DCC 90', don't just pass on the deal....run like Hell and don't look back!!!!
HZ
The 'kit' turntable is also a problematic one. The pit many times is warped, and the main bearing is plastic.
I have the non-DCC 90' one and it is still working after 5 years. Our club has a non-DCC 135' one, and the auto centering is shot - it can 'zero', but will not program tracks. This one is 10 years old. It works fine using the 'eyeball' alignment method
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I built the DC 90 foot kit version and motorized it. This was the version available widely in the early-mid 2000's. As mentioned, the pit was out of round and the bearings were so sloppy that the bridge wobbled uselessly. I fiddled with mine and got it to work well enough that it was usable for an arc of about 45 degrees reliably.
Two years later, in 2006, I purchased the original built-up indexed version, the one since issued with DCC capability, and I loved that machine. I don't have it mounted yet as I am between layouts, but I expect it will work as well as before once it is cleaned and installed.
I believe the kit version was re-tooled about five years ago or so, and that the problems have been corrected. If you find the bridge to pivot sloppily after a dry fit assembly, consider shimming behind the large washer highest on the pivot post. That's how I got mine to pivot smoothly.
The 90' has reappeared in the most recent Walther monthly flier.
Edit Mel beat me to it.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Thanks everyone.
This looks like an older kit. Definitely not DCC. I'm not worried about how sloppy the mechanism is. I can fix that. I'm also not concerned about indexing. Eyeballing it is fine with me. If the pit is warped that may present a challenge but not an insurmountable one.
For the price I think it would be worthwhile even if it only ends up being kit bash fodder. Nobody has said that they are extremely deficient structurally so I'm likely going to take the chance.
Thanks again.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I just ordered the turntable. $39.99 plus $17.00 shipping to Canada (shipping to Canada is always a killer). Its coming from a reliable seller whom I have dealt with many times. There were a couple of others listed at slightly higher prices for the turntable but shipping was almost double thanks to the ripoff Global Shipping Program (it should be called the Global Shipping Scam).
After doing a search to see what the turntables were going for I realized that this one has the later artwork on the box. Hopefully that is a good sign.
Mel:
I appreciate the quality of the CMR turntable but I couldn't justify the price. Thanks for the recommendation.
The CMR 90' turntable is about $360.00 USD including motor and delivery. That's $480.00 Cdn. or about 4 times the price for the Walthers turntable and drive motor.
I admire your mechanical creativity. The slip ring system is very well done!
I found this thread on a different forum. I have one, too, still in the box. It was a good deal.
Gary
RR_Mel The Mel slip-ring assemble was a necessity for turntable lighting and my homebrew indexing system. The design was very simple but actually making the slip-ring was a difficult task, that took many hours of tedious and intense elbow grease but if asked if I would do it again the answer would be YES! It works great, not one single problem since the install. My best scratch built project ever.
Mel, I am very interested in your slip ring techniques. I suspect I am not the only one. Do you have that documented somewhere? I looked through your blog but didn't see it.
CG
Never mind. I went back and found it.
Gary:
Thanks for the link to the other website thread. I'm not too pleased with the negative comments about the drive motor. I ordered one but I may try to cancel it. Obviously I shouldn't get my hopes up that the TT will work properly right out of the box.
The other problems that were mentioned in that thread may or may not be relatively easy to solve. If the pit is warped that might be a challenge. I have a couple of ideas for replacing the bushings or even the pivot shaft system entirely if necessary. Opening up the motor housing to be able to view/adjust the gears would seem easy enough to do. The open housing could be reinforced if the structural integrity was compromised by removing parts of it. The only crucial function that I can see that the motor/gear housing serves is to position the bottom pivot point for the bridge.
When my kids were young they had a helicopter that 'flew' around in circles. The chopper blades were driven by a motor and they actually provided the lift. The thing got broken but I think I kept the contact system that fed power to the rotor motor. It was fairly robust IIRC. Now I will have to go digging!
Thanks for the reference to the .45 RPM drive motor. Some time ago I bought a box of about a dozen small motors on eBay. Included in the box were a couple of motors with reduction drives. I'll have to dig those out too.
I built the 90' kit, the motor drive sucked so I got Diamond one but by the time all was said and done the builtup I bought on e-bay for $50 was a much beter deal.
hon30critter Mel: Thanks for the reference to the .45 RPM drive motor. Some time ago I bought a box of about a dozen small motors on eBay. Included in the box were a couple of motors with reduction drives. I'll have to dig those out too. Dave
RR_MelI didn’t check their site for the current price, I wouldn’t go that way at that price either.
There is a used CMR 120' on Ebay...$90...caveat emptor and all that.
RR_MelThe Dayton 2L003 gear motor works fantastic as a turntable direct drive at .45 RPM!
I take it that the turntable's rotation is at .45rpm....that seems quite a bit slower than the real ones which I've seen, but if it stops instantly, would make alignment pretty easy to achieve.
Wayne
Hey Henry:
I had a look at the CMR on eBay. The price for the turntable is pretty good considering that it includes a motor. The killer for me is that the seller is using the Global Shipping Program. Shipping to Canada is almost $70.00 Cdn. That's about what I paid for the Walthers 90' turntable including shipping.
I will send them a message asking if they will ship First Class.
EDIT: Seller got right back to me. He will ship First Class unless the box is too big. If I get it I'm going to have turntables coming out my ears!
Second EDIT: The package is too big and too heavy to qualify for USPS First Class Mail. I rather suspected that would be the case. The seller tried to find a cheaper shipping method but websites he was using apparently wouldn't give him exact quotes. That got us back to the Global Shipping Program price and I can't justify the expense so I have to pass on the CMR turntable.
doctorwayne I take it that the turntable's rotation is at .45rpm....that seems quite a bit slower than the real ones which I've seen, but if it stops instantly, would make alignment pretty easy to achieve.
Dayton makes a range of gear motors. The challenge is to find the one you want at a reasonable price.
http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/small-dc-gearmotors/
Zoro has a 4.5 RPM 12 vdc model that I presume could be slowed by lowering the operating voltage.
https://www.zoro.com/dayton-dc-gearmotor-45-rpm-12v-vented-2l006/i/G3445111/
BTW, Zoro is said to be a Grainger company that sells the same lines at much lower prices. I have ordered from them twice. Both orders were shipped immediately and arrived promptly.
My research also indicates that Grainger owns the Dayton brand.
Edit: I also found this 1.5 RPM version, which seems perfect:
https://www.zoro.com/dayton-dc-gearmotor-15-rpm-12v-vented-2l004/i/G2139033/
doctorwayne I take it that the turntable's rotation is at .45rpm....that seems quite a bit slower than the real ones which I've seen, but if it stops instantly, would make alignment pretty easy to achieve. Wayne
I saw the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum turn one of their steamers a few years ago. It seemed pretty quick at the time. But I just found a YouTube video of the operation, and it is much slower than I remembered. It took well over a minute to turn the engine 180 degrees. The speed of the turntable appeared to vary at times, perhaps simply in response to the operator's contol inputs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHXySaPJS18
Anyway, I think Mel's 65 year old memory is doing just fine. Better than mine, apparently.
Well, I certainly can't say that the turntable seen in the link isn't moving at a prototypical speed, but it's certainly slower than most of the ones I've seen. I've never thought to actually time the speed, though.However, the one which stands out most in my mind was this turntable...
The hostler brought a geep out of the roundhouse and onto the turntable, then turned the table perhaps a little more than 180° to have the loco pointing in the right direction for its train.The table spun so quickly that when it stopped (very abruptly) the loco actually rocked back and forth (side-to-side) quite severely at least a couple of times. I don't know if it was a turnable malfunction, or perhaps the holstler operated it at a speed not normally used (or maybe not normally allowed).
I certainly wouldn't want one to move that fast, but 2 or 2.5rpm looks reasonable to my eye.... slow enough that the loco doesn't rock to a stop, but fast enough that I don't fall asleep. Some operations on our model railroads do need slowing down, but I don't think that they necessarily need to be scaled totally prototypically. Watching a loco being turned on a turntable is no more exciting than pausing for a water stop, or waiting for brake pipe pressure to climb.Even at prototypical speeds (my layout's mainline speed limits are mostly 30mph or less) it doesn't take very long for a train to move from one town to the unprototypically-close next one. Most trains, once they arrive, will have switching work to do: cars to spot, others to lift, and others simply to be re-spotted. This could take anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 or 3 actual hours - some waiting for a switch to be lined, or handbrakes released or set, but most of this keeps the locomotive moving and the operator engaged. "Work" is being done, but I don't think that it needs to translate directly to actual work. Some will, of course, want to operate more prototypically and others less-so, and I certainly respect their choice.
A couple of Canadian turntables at the following link. Both about 0.5 RPM.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66__RTczAGg
CG:
Thanks for the video.
The second turntable seemed to be having some trouble rotating. Maybe the Walthers kits are prototypical after all!
hon30critter CG: Thanks for the video. The second turntable seemed to be having some trouble rotating. Maybe the Walthers kits are prototypical after all! Dave
Good one.
I got the turntable yesterday and have done some test fitting. The pit was not warped but I discovered the the lower bushing and the upper bushing do not line up properly. It is enough to cause one end of the bridge to be lower than the other by about 1/4". That causes the low end of the bridge to contact the ties on the pit rail, and of course it would make track alignment impossible.
The solution was fairly simple. There was no allowance for adjusting the position of the lower bearing so I drilled out the mounting holes in the motor cover/lower bearing holder to 7/32". That allowed the motor cover to be moved around just enough that the bearings could be lined up. I will use washers to cover the larger mounting holes. I had to use nylon spacers because the replacement screws were a bit too long (that's all I had on hand). The original screws would have been too short to grip properly with the washers in place.
I am also changing the bridge wheels. I have two sets of surplus wheel sets from Grandt Line switcher kits which have stub axles. The wheels are bigger than the absolutely crappy ones that came with the kit so I have drilled axle holes in the trucks to accommodate them. I can only use the wheels without the gears molded into the hubs. The ones with the gears are too wide. I'll have to get creative to get the visible axle bearings in the right spot. Hopefully the wheels will line up with the pit track but if not I will either adjust the ends of the bridge (simple solution) or grind out the existing track and ties and put a piece of real rail in (complex, messy solution).
I was concerned that I would have to upgrade the bushings but I don't think that will be necessary. Once I had the bushings lined up there didn't seem to be too much slop. I'm hoping that the new bridge wheels will sit on the track to stop the bridge from rocking.
I also cut a slot in the bottom of the motor cover so that I could see the gear mesh with the drive motor. I was concerned that the gears wouldn't mesh properly if I moved the motor cover too much. So far they seem to be fine, but if I need to tighten the gear mesh I will adjust the position of the motor.
Now that I have the turntable under construction I need some inspiration with regard to painting and detailing it.
Please show me pictures of your completed turntables, or pictures of the real thing. I figure it will be much easier to do most of the painting before the bridge is installed in the pit. Rust stains from the tracks leading into the pit can be done once the track is in place but doing the major painting before assembly seems to make sense.
Thanks
Don't have a pic but what I did after painting was paint the inside of the pit bottom with white glue and then pored a dirt colored crushed rock over it. Let dry, dump off the excess rock (or ballast if you want) and then put some weeds here and there and then wet watered it and dribbled on matt medium mixture for baslasting. The reason for the white glue first step is it forms a single sheet when dry and alows for a really thin layer.
Here is my version of the built-up indexed model from 2006. I figured that with a plugged drain and after some heavy rain, some oily water would accumulate at the bottom of the pit.
jrbernier The 'kit' turntable is also a problematic one. The pit many times is warped, and the main bearing is plastic. I have the non-DCC 90' one and it is still working after 5 years. Our club has a non-DCC 135' one, and the auto centering is shot - it can 'zero', but will not program tracks. This one is 10 years old. It works fine using the 'eyeball' alignment method
Ditto on the 90' kit. I motorized it and it worked OK for a while but now the motor won't turn. It didn't wear out from over use since it was on my branchline and only turns two locos per session.
I'm glad to hear about the problems with the DCC 90' TT. I was considering getting one to replace the kit built one. I think I'll just save my money
My 130' prebuilt non-DCC TT works fine although I occassionally have to clean small pieces of debris out of the gear teeth. Programming the stops proved to be unreliable so I just line it up by eye.
selector:
Nice job on the TT. I think the oily water looks great. The various colours on the pit floor are well done too. I don't want to add tons of weeds and debris in the pit. I want it to look like it is reasonably well maintained.
Did you do the 'arch' (can't remember the proper term) or was it part of the kit?
Thanks for posting the photo.
Dave, the arch is part of the model. This TT is the "built-up" version, the first sent out already assembled by Walthers with indexing. It is not the "DCC" version recently released by them. It has been a decade, but I seem to recall having to install the hand rails and perhaps the operator's shack. The electrical arch is also an item to be installed by the owner.
Thanks selector.
The arch that was supplied with my kit is a bit wimpy. I'm thinking about getting some Micro Engineering columns to build a heftier version just for looks. Micro Engineering apparently doesn't sell the columns seperately so I guess I'll have to use a bridge kit as a donor. I'm thinking of using an N scale kit so the arch doesn't look too heavy.
hon30critter selector: Nice job on the TT. I think the oily water looks great. The various colours on the pit floor are well done too. I don't want to add tons of weeds and debris in the pit. I want it to look like it is reasonably well maintained. Did you do the 'arch' (can't remember the proper term) or was it part of the kit? Thanks for posting the photo. Dave
rrebell:
rrebellI was not implying not kept up, mine just looks like the type without a concrete bottom.
OK, now I understand what your reasoning was. Makes more sense.
Not much to see in this photo of my Walthers 90' turntable. I've motorised it using the motor and gear train from an old VCR, but the turntable itself is too noisy (wheels, I suspect) and flops around too much to stay in position when a locomotive is moving on or off of it. I think that a stronger spring against the driveshaft will fix that.
This is my sorta-scratchbuilt turntable, an 89'er due to limited space...
The pit was cut into the 3/4" plywood top of the layout, which was used here specifically for the installation of a turntable. The pit walls are 1/8" Masonite, and the pit bottom is the cut-out piece from the 3/4" plywood. I cut the concrete base for the ring rail from 1/4" plywood, and the ring rail itself was cut from a piece of Atlas code 83 flex track...
The wheels, face-to-face metal wheels from an Athearn passenger car are mounted in plastic trucks from a freight car, and current for the table's track is via the ring rail and metal wipers, and a wiper on the turntable's shaft (from an old handmixer).The table is a pine block, cut to size, with "steel" sides cut from a couple of Atlas through girder bridges off the "used" table of my LHS. The track is Atlas code 83 flex - I cut the webs joining the ties, then, after spreading them out, added 10"x10" ties cut from basswood which I had on hand. Using the plastic ties kept the rails in-gauge, while the longer wood ties allowed support for the walkway. The deck is 3"x10" basswood (pretty-well using up almost all of my modelling wood - a good thing, since I prefer styrene nowadays). The handrail uprights are from Athearn diesels, with bases made from styrene and brass tubing, while the handrail is .020" music wire.I've not yet added an arch, as I first need to install an overhead steam line from a nearby power plant. This will heat the locomotive shop and carshop, along with the sandhouse and coaling tower. It will also provide steam for pipes under the turntable pit, which will obviate the need for labourers to shovel out the snow, which is generally quite heavy in the region modelled. There are a couple of catchbasin gratings installed in the pit bottom, one of which is visible in the first photo.
hon30critterMicro Engineering apparently doesn't sell the columns seperately so I guess I'll have to use a bridge kit as a donor.
What parts did you need, Dave? I have been kit-bashing quite a few M-E bridges, and some Central Valley ones, too. I can send you some girder parts I have left over. Many of the rivet plates from C-V and Tichy can be helpful for your arch, too.
http://www.microengineering.com/products_br.htm
I have a Diamond Scale TT with a New York Railway Supply stepper motor indexing. I'm pretty happy with it. I only gave it a basic paint job and hope to get back to doing more details in the future. I want to letter a "WORK SAFELY" slogan on the bridge sometime soon...
I know they're grossly oversized but I wanted the lamp posts on the bridge, too (wired to the rail so they're lit when the DCC is on. The Diamond TT actually collects power for one rail through the arch and the other rail through the pit rails. This is nice because I can use all four brass pit wheels for pickup. I'll try to get a better photo soon. Diamond has a nice motor/gearbox casting at the bridge ends.
Regards, Ed
Ed:
Thanks for the very generous offer. I'll send you a PM.
I like the lights on the bridge, and I plan on doing the same thing with scratch built lights. I assume I will have to include a rectifer in the circuit for the LEDs in order to run them off of track power.
The Walthers kit includes a bunch of decals but they are all in black. I doubt that I will use them.
Cheers!
I have the revamped bridge wheel assemblies roughly assembled to see if the new wheels lined up with the pit rail. I'm happy to say that they lined up perfectly! I have to raise the bridge truck assemblies just a tad so that they aren't lifting the bridge up. That should be fairly simple to do. Here are the modified trucks in rough form:
This is what the wheels supplied with the kit look like :
I discovered that the bridge doesn't rotate freely through 360 degrees. I think I can solve that problem by sanding the ends of the bridge.
hon30critterThis is what the wheels supplied with the kit look like
I agree! Walthers always seems to take shortcuts in their mechanical designs. I had to re-engineer the bascule bridge mechanics, their walking-beam oil pumps sound like a strangled cat and the concrete rotary-kiln needed much rework. Still, 'ya work with what 'ya got...
Here's some additional pics of my Diamond Scale 130 footer. I realize that I installed this "temporarily" back in 1997 so I'm ready to get back to "dialing-up" the details but we all may fall into that "now that it's running fine, I hate to mess with it" attitude. I'm guilty.
This shows the "arch" It actually carries current to one bridge rail. I never got around to making better wire connections to the "Slip-Ring" but, again, it works fine. I simply brush painted it and I see lots of bare metal. The near upright looks a little crooked but can be adjusted since it is on 1-72 brass screws to carry the power.
Operators cab. Someday, real glass will be installed
The motor and jack-shaft. Note the journal box on the pinion axle . Note, too, the nasty insect webs. As often as I brush and vacuum them away, they come back hours later!
Back when I installed the klunky Walthers lamp posts, they were "as good as it gets". Now, with SMD LEDs there are better options. I didn't use a rectifier, simply a 1K (I think) resistor. Even powering LEDs you can run them off DCC track power without a rectifier, just the resistor. Experiment sometime with junk LEDs and find a value that works to your liking.
Recessed control panel. Since I have watched this thread I was prompted to visit the NYRS site and found that they will upgrade my control so that I can fine-tune the track alignment without re-programming the whole mess! I'll have to seriously look into that.
My turntable instructions.
And finally, a GTW Mike getting the spin-about. (Please don't kick me for not catching that cut-lever sticking up in the air! I always rag on photographers for not catching that in their photos and here I go and do it That poly-propylene coupler has to go, too!)
I just sent you a couple of PMs regarding your offer.
Thanks for the additional pictures! The visible drive system is really neat. I hadn't even thought about that sort of detail. All the Walthers kit gives you is two panels that supposedly cover the motor. They're going in the spare parts bin!
I learned, or rather, re-learned a simple lesson tonight. All the parts for the bridge trucks that I was testing were just sitting loose in place. That was fine until I turned the bridge over to look at something else. Yep, parts all over the floor! The lesson - when your are using gravity to hold things together, don't defy it! Fortunately I was able to find them all but bending over to pick them up was a bit painful. My back has been the pits for the last few days. Whine, whine, whine.....what I need is less whine and more wine!
Regards
Wayne:
Thanks for sharing your TT photos. Very creative construction methods!
I think I can solve the wobbly bridge problem if I can get the new bridge wheels at the right height so they will be in contact with the pit rail but not lifting the bridge up. That will require some repeated careful filing and test fitting but things are pretty close now. It looks like I only need to raise the bridge wheels buy about 1/16" to get everything to line up. If I can get it right, the bridge wheels will support the weight of the locomotive as it crosses on to the bridge.
I managed to cobble together a semblance of a drive motor using some gears from a 35mm camera I recently took apart and a brake cylinder:
I have to do some filing and add the power cables.
The new wheels just touch the pit rail so the bridge shouldn't wobble.
I don't know if these picuture files will help, but here is my 130' Walters installed some two or three years back. Never a problem. No problems with installation either. These are the units we all had to wait almost two years to arrive on backorder as the factory in China was low on production and fixing problems.
Unit runs beautifully. I use the controller instead of programming cvs for TT track assignments. This installation is much faster and far more foolproof than fiddling with cv on a throttle to use the TT.
Had left a bed of 2 in high density foam over 1/2" ply for the base. For the longest time it simply resembled a big pink lake in the layout until the unit arrived.
Finally installed.
Used CN style bumpers.
Visiting valuable brass big loco.
Worth a small fortune for this full set of GN brass collected by a friend's father in the '60s
Who is more accurate....Brass loco or Walters round house. The loco does not fit.
My programming/label chart for TT tracks.
Preferred operating config.
Laser was helpful in track alignment, shooting through TT deck to storage tracks.
In progress.
SSome screen shots from the install video available at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P46EfnZsnas&index=11&list=PLKHAU0ooZbm15_bTsRrk5JHFwn1nFve2n
Later features installed are safety fencing, signage and single pole power line tofeed power to top of TT deck.
Our real 90 ft.TT at the West Coast Heritage Rail Park and Museum in Squamish, BC. A former CN unit from back east.
Cisco Kid:
Thank you for sharing all of those photos and the video. I picked up lots of interesting details.
Did the turntable controller come with the turntable or was it purchased seperately?
The controller came with it, along with all instructions and paper templates for construction/insertion and programming. I had just one little piece out of place on the gearing of the TT motor when it arrived as I recall.....a cog that had bumped out of position, and it has been fine ever since. Just once in a while a loose bit of my ground cover sand will sit on the ring gear in the pit, and just one little grain will stop the motion. But as this cover is almost never loose, that has happened only once since installed.
I have even dumped a locomotive into the pit when the locos DC settings were left active and all is well.
Tonight I did a test assembly of the bridge, pit and motor and the turntable turns almost perfectly. I say 'almost' because there was some very slight hesitation at one point. I think it was caused by some flash on the big gear because the bridge did not touch the pit at any point, other than the wheels of course, and they roll very smoothly. The most important part is that the bridge does not rock at all. I applied a fair amount of pressure but there was no deflection.
The drive is noisy but I think once it is buried under the layout it should be fine. I'm sure the prototypes must have made some noise too.
I have given a lot of thought to indexing it but I think I will go with the simplest system possible. I think I have two choices actually. One is to use a center off momentary switch and the other is to use a rheostat with center off position. Jogging the bridge to get final alignment would seem to be easier with the switch, but I like the ability to start the bridge rotation slowly which the rheostat would provide. I hate jerky, toy like movement.
Any thoughts? Can anybody suggest a specific rheostat?
Edit:
I have to rant a bit. Sorry.
One of the screw sockets that is used to hold the lower bushing/motor assembly broke off when I was tightening the screw. Another one has split so that it required repair too. This is a device that by nature requires assembly/disassembly/reassembly to get things lined up properly. Why would the designers not make the screw sockets more substantial? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest!
I spent the better part of an hour adding bearing caps to the bridge bogies. I had a lot of trouble getting a square cut while removing them from the arch bar trucks until I finally smartened up and used my coping saw. Then two of them dissappeared into the ether when they popped out of my pliers. One looks a little rough but it will be fine once painted. Keep in mind that the bridge is upside down in the picture.
Whether or not anybody will ever see them under the deck remains to be determined.
By the way, regarding the motor housing screw sockets that I was ranting about, I surrounded them in epoxy so hopefully they will be a little more solid.
I didn't like the unpainted colour of the pit so I primed it with automotive primer in anticipation of painting it with something a bit more grey. I actually kind of like the primer colour so I may stick with that as a base.
I also decided to scribe the normal stress relief seams in the concrete as well as add some cracks. I used a #11 blade to cut the lines and then used a chisel blade to remove the raised edges from the cut lines. I may have overdone it with the cracks but I can sand them down and fill them if it looks too busy. Otherwise I will just blame it on corrupt concrete suppliers! I will use a wash to bring out the lines in the concrete as well as adding some appropriate stains etc. I really like the idea of having a small pool of oily water in the bottom of the pit.
I also want to have a bit of vegetation growing in the cracks so I ordered a bunch of Woodland Scenics supplies today.
Here is the pit with the seams and cracks cut into the surface. Please tell me if you think it is overdone:
(Edit - after looking at the picture I do think that the cracks appear to be overdone but I'll add a bit more weathering to see if I can mute the effect somewhat. If not, out comes the sandpaper!).
Thanks,
Dave,
I think the weathering will mute the cracks. BTW: They look good. Here are a couple of shots of my scratchbuilt 70' turntable. Still haven't finsihed the ground cover, but it works well.
There is more info on the construction of this turntable on my website (see the link in my signature)
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Guy:
Thanks for the thumbs up on the concrete cracks. I have ordered some scenery materials to scenic it with including some self adhesive grass tufts. I'm hoping that I can cut the tufts into narrow strips so it will look like grass is growing out of the cracks in some places.
Right now I'm in the process of painting the ring rail and ties. What a tedious job!
I checked out your website. Nice job on the scratch built turntable! In fact, nice job on the whole layout!!
You have got me thinking about replacing the top of the bridge with real wood if I can't get the appearance I want with the plastic. Unfortunately I already have the rails glued to the bridge. I had to do that to check the bridge height after I changed the bridge wheels.
Regards,
Thanks for the kind words on the layout. Send me a PM if you want the current updates.
On the wood deck: you can probably glue some scale 1X stock right over the plastic with no modifications. I have done this on flat cars and it looks great without raising the original surface height very much.
Here is the other scratchbuilt TT on the layout (yeah - the vertical alignment needs to be fixed):
Have fun,
Nice job on the other turntable. I love the NBW castings.
trainnut1250you can probably glue some scale 1X stock right over the plastic with no modifications.
I have some very thin mahogany which might work but it has two problems. One is that I'll have to see if I can split it half lengthwise because the strips are too wide to be reasonable in HO. The other is the naturally dark colour. I want a tone similar to your bridge boards so the mahogany would have to be painted anyhow. I'm also concerned that it would be hard to get the thin strips perfectly flat.
Before doing that however, I'm going to try some paint. I gave the bridge boards a coat of medium grey this morning and I think it is a good start. I will try to paint some individual 'boards' a slightly different colour. I'm going to make up a cardstock mask and use my airbrush.
I used scale 1" x 12"s (not sure width) basswood from Mt Albert. These were alcohol/shoe dyed to get the color you see. Eileen's tacky glue and some weights will keep things flat and snug while the glue dries.
The painting thing is a good idea as well. Check out Harold Huber's technique for making plastic look like wood here -
http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/weathered_plastic/
Love to see some pics when you get a chance.
I just finished a second Walther's 90' TT kit. The first one I built about 10 years ago and it runs but stutters and jumps.
I took more time with this one and it came out pretty good. Here's what I learned:
- The bogie wheels are not round. It looked like the mold halves didn't quite line up. I filed the wheels into a better shape with a small file. After assembling the bogies in their trucks, I ran the trucks at an angle on a sheet of 600 grit sandpaper. This made the wheels turn but also scrubbed off the high spots. I applaud the skills and patience of those who retrofitted metal wheels!
- The big drive gear had some flash on it, particularly where it joined the sprue.
- The benchwork support must be absolutely flat and the hole for the pit must not have any spots that make for a snug fit. That causes the pit to warp slightly and causes binding.
- Take time to test things. You can put the deck in the pit, attach the lower housing, and spin the turntable with your finger to see if there's any binding. That's how I found an area in the pit opening that needed to be enlarged. After it passes the "spin test" the motor should be the last thing installed.
- As far as noise, there is a grinding sound. But the one prototype turntable I am familiar with, at the Steam Railroading Institute (operators of the Pere Marquette 1225), is not particularly quiet. There's a good bit of noise from the drive unit. There is also no such thing as indexing. The control is a lever that obviously has contacts that give you a few speeds in each direction. It's normal to "bump" the turntable to get it lined up - and often "bump" it back because you overshot the desired track.
George V.
Thanks for the link. Great information.
I think I'm going to use a real wood overlay. I'm going to call Mount Albert Scale Lumber on Monday to order some scale 2 x 8s and 4 x 8s. One of the problems with the molded bridge planks is that whoever did the design put all of the end to end board seams on the same beam. Not a particularly strong way of doing thing, although I guess if the underlying structure was steel it wouldn't matter too much.
I'll post pictures once I have made some progress. The scale lumber will take a week or so to get here. In the mean time I will experiment with adding some stains to the pit and rust on the bridge.
Hi George:
Thanks for all the advice.
I'm at the stage where I have the bridge turning smoothly under power. I went through most of the steps that you suggested. I took one look at the bogie wheels that came with the kit and immediately tossed them. The metal wheels seem to work very well although I had to make some modifications to the position of the bogies to get the wheels to sit on the ring rail properly. There is no wobble in the bridge.
The motor/gear noise is quite noticable but I'm hoping that once the turntable is installed in the benchwork that things will quiet down. I think one of the problems with the noise is that the pit tends to act like a big speaker cone. I may add some spray foam insulation to the outside bottom of the pit to try to quiet it down but obviously the motor housing will have to be accessible.
Getting the fit in the benchwork right is definitely important.
I'm not going to index the turntable. I think it will be much more interesting to use a manual switch, including the 'bumping' that you mentioned. I am actually considering using an old train set power pack so I can vary the speed of rotation.
Thanks for your input.
Today I received the Mt. Albert Scale Lumber boards for the bridge deck:
End view. I think the real wood planks look much better than the molded ones, but I do recognize that the grain is way out of scale. I now have to add a ton of nbw castings to the safety beams outside of the rails. I'm not sure if I will leave the area between the rails as is or cut it out and put in real wood:
A couple of days ago I applied a first layer of weathering to the pit. I'm hoping that the brush strokes and puddle lines will be less obvious when more 'layers' of weathering are added:
Comments welcomed as always. This is my first major attempt at weathering so please share your advice.
Looking really good. Little nitpicks, many of which will seem fussy….On the wood, if you want the weathered look, it is better to stain it before you glue it down. I would make the boards as snug as you can, so we see almost no gap between them along their lengths. Definitely put boards between the rails.
The weathering in the pit is spot on but you do have a few hard edges where droplets dried. I would soften those by applying powder etc. Little point again as They most likely won’t show if you leave them as is…
Hi Guy:
trainnut1250On the wood, if you want the weathered look, it is better to stain it before you glue it down.
You make some very good suggestions. I wish I had thought the process through a little better. The boards are CA'd in place so removing them will be messy but not impossible. I bought more than enough to do it over.
Could I have lessened the effect of the 'hard edges' on the concrete stains by adding a little soap to the mix? I used tap water and Polly Scale acrylic paint. Should I have used distilled water or alcohol to dilute the paint?
Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
Now worries on the wood. You can still stain it in place. Just make sure that the wash you use isn’t too dark (alcohol and shoe dye/india ink mixture) Test on a scrap piece to see the results before applying to the deck.
As for the hard edges on the pit weathering: using Polly scale as weathering is a bit tricky because of this tendency. I usually will feather the paint a bit to break up those edges. It does have a tendency to bead up a bit and create the edge. This can also happen with alcohol/dye washes on plastic as well.
I’m not sure that you will see the edges when you get the bridge back in and your grass in place. If it is still noticeable, I would use some black or rust colored weathering powder and just soften the very edges of a few of the spots. You don’t have to eliminate the edges just blend them enough so that the eye can’t connect the circle and they don’t read as “water spots”.
The Paint thinner doesn’t seem to matter much in my experience as far as whether the edges develop. You didn’t say how you applied the weathering, but I find using an airbrush will make this tendency go away but there is also a very distinctive “airbrush look” that I try to avoid.
You can also minimize the hard edge tendency when using acrylics by creating a wet on wet approach where the edge feathers out smooth. Personally I use acrylics in an airbrush for weathering buildings, locos and train cars. I use lots of other methods (mostly powders) when I don’t want to hassle with the airbrush.
It will be great to see the final results on this when you get it all back together with the grass in the pit.
trainnut1250Now worries on the wood.
The wood is history. I was able to get it off with a wide X-acto chisel blade and some sand paper. There was maybe $4.00 in wood so its not a huge loss. Good lesson learned. I also thought about your suggestion of not leaving spaces between the wood strip which I had done. I think that it will look better without gaps.
I used a wide artist's brush to apply the wash in the pit. It tended to leave streaks no matter how I tried to manipulate it so I ended up applying a fair amount of wash, spreading it around, and then I used the brush to wick the excess off the surface. I'm going to try a little isopropyl alcohol to see if I can soften the lines.
I don't plan on putting a lot of grass in the pit. I just want a few spots here and there. I'm going to try to cut the self adhesive grass tufts into thin strips so it will look like the grass is only growing in the cracks. If that doesn't work, I have some WS grass fibres that I can hopefully 'plant' in the cracks. I also have some WS ground cover to mimic a few weeds too.
I'm in a quandry as to what colour weathering powders to use and how to apply them. I've only got 4 or 5 colours, all in the yellow/brown range, plus black. Any suggestions?
The other thing I want to do is re-create some lime deposits on the side walls. I'm thinking of getting some white and grey artists oil paints, applying them in thin irregular lines, and then using paint thinner to 'wash' the paint into streaks below the lines. I also want to put rust streaks on the walls from the rails using artists oils as well, but I think that will have to wait until the turntable and tracks are in place so I can position the rust stains properly.
Comments and advice welcomed as always! (Did I say that before?)
On the wood: Wow you don’t mess around when it comes to removing what you don’t like!! When you snug the wood together you may have to have a thinner strip to make the width work out. It will look better if the thin piece isn’t on the outside edge…
Suggestions for pit weathering: a black or dark rust color powders applied sparingly will work. You can really make lots of colors work depending on how you blend them. Try practicing on a scrap to check the techniques. You can layer a brown with black to mute it a bit. If you use powders they can be rinsed off if you don’t like them (providing none of the other weathering materials are water soluble)
On the rust and lime: I might try dry brushing some Polly scale… Easy does it… Practice on the scrap to get the technique right…I really like Model master rust color for darker rust….Not sure how paint thinner will act on the plastic in the pit. At this point you may have covered it with enough paint to render that issue moot…
Below is something you may have already seen. It is a description of the specifics of using real wood and the ins and outs of dyeing it etc.
More tips on working with wood:
Wood: Use fine grained basswood, many kits of old days use big grain pine. This looks bad when stained as the grain is grossly out of scale. Balsa can have the same issues. Northeastern scale, Mt Albert and Kappler are good suppliers. Think in terms of scale dimensions when using wood I.e. 2 X12s for planking, 2 x 4 studs, 4 x 4 posts etc. If you plan to do lots of wood construction, buy an NWSL chopper – one of my most used tools. Tasks like cutting out 150 identical size planks are a piece of cake with this tool.
Cut wood before gluing as mentioned above. Assemble before staining and you run the risk of the glue not absorbing the stain and you will have paint or resort to other methods to cover up bare spots – best to avoid if you can.
Alcohol shoe dye solutions: India Ink gives a slight blue cast to the stained wood, Kiwi shoe dye is more charcoal black, Lincoln dye is nasty but is very potent and gives a very dark jet black. Some modeler’s prefer premixed products such as driftwood stain or Silverwood stain. Micro mark’s sells a premixed shoe dye solution and another option is a product called weather it. All these methods and mixes work well, all have a different look…Refresh the dye in the bottle every so often.
Staining Process: Dyeing wood is messy and the dye solution is nuclear. It will ruin surfaces. God help you if drop your jar or spill it anywhere. Your dye bottle needs to be big if you are making large structures. Parts must be submerged completely for best results. Shake the bottle to insure an even coat (carefully). Get a fork (thrift store) to fish the parts out of the solution.
Drying: After dyeing the wood I will put the pieces in a paper bag with some paper towels and shake the bag a bit. This absorbs the excess dye and gives a nice even coat on the pieces. They are they laid out on paper towels to dry. To keep from sticking, I’ll turn em’ over once as they dry.
To keep from warping - use a solid substructure and when possible use weight to get things flat and solid. After they are dry you shouldn’t have any problems.
A photo: the water stain weathering on this tank is mostly polly scale that has been dry brushed. I was trying to get the white lime deposit look around the edges.
Hope all this is helpful. Have a great Thanksgiving,
Thanks for taking the time to post all that information. Very helpful and much appreciated. I'll have to read it a couple of times to let it all soak in. Pardon the pun - 'soak' as in when dyeing the wood.
The water tank is really impressive. You are setting a high standard.
trainnut1250Have a great Thanksgiving,
Thanks, but I've already had my Thanksgiving! Canadian eh! It was good! I hope yours is good too!
All the best!
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
hon30critterPlease show me pictures of your completed turntables,
Well, this is mine. I'm sure it's not terribly prototypical, since it's based on an Atlas and is very short, but I like it.
This is a "pit-bash," taking the venerable Atlas deck turntable, dropping it into the layout and building a false floor which does not rotate. The bridge is mounted to the deck through the hub in the middle.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
This is a really informative thread Dave, It has just confirmed to me though, when I build my own layout I will be incorporating at least two Wyes!!!!
Hi Bear!
My turntable will be feeding a three stall roundhouse, a diesel engine repair facility and several locomotive storage tracks.
MisterBeasley:
Your turntable is very rustic. How did you do the stone walls?
I did something similar with an Atlas turntable except it was lined with Plastruct brick sheets. I used an Atlas deck girder bridge and extended it to fit the turntable. After doing all that work I decided that I couldn't stand the noise and the start/stop action so it sits gathering dust. Its likely headed for a train show/sale.
hon30critterYour turntable is very rustic. How did you do the stone walls?
I cast the walls in hydrocal, using a rock wall mold that I curved around a form. This old thread describes the building process for this.
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/99558.aspx?PageIndex=1
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/99558.aspx?PageIndex=1
Mr. B.
Thanks for the link to your thread on kit bashing the Atlas turntable. I made it clickable. Your tutorial is excellent!
I applied some grass tufts and some lime stains. They looked OK. Then I attempted to apply some weathering powders. I managed to get the weathering around the pit rail way too dark and the rust effects way too prominent. I'll have to figure out how to tone it down.
Any suggestions?
Hi, dave
I have had some luck toning down weathering powders (Pan Pastels) by using fine mists of "wet water" and in the case of your pit you might want to hold the pit vertically to keep too much "rust" from spoiling the look of the pit floor.
As you apply the damp mist use a fairly large artist's brush, 5 to 8mm or so, to help wash away the water. Hold the pit over a laundry tub or something to collect the wash water.
If that doesn't have enough lightening effect, then use a broad brush and simply apply some very light gray over the rails and ties to "bleach" them out.
Just a suggestion, others may have some better ideas.
Best Of Luck, Ed
I followed Ed's suggestion and washed off as much of the weathering powders as I could. The turntable looks better but it's still pretty dark. I will have to do a little touch up along the edge of the ring rail ties. I'll try a much smaller brush and a lot less black weathering powder:
I think its done. Just light touch up and finish the bridge. I have overapplied the rust many times - fortunately it mostly comes off with some water...
trainnut1250I think its done. Just light touch up and finish the bridge. I have overapplied the rust many times
That's the trick - knowing when to quit!
hon30critterThe turntable looks better but it's still pretty dark.
Glad you had some success, Dave!
Over the years, an awful lot of grease and grime is going to accumulate at the ring-rail from all that grease being slung off the gears and bridge journals. I wouldn't be too concerned about it being dark. With all that oil and grease, the rust would not be very prevalent, either, in my estimation.
I think it looks sharp!
Ed
Thanks Ed!
On to the bridge. I'm waiting for some black shoe dye to arrive so I can stain the second attempt at planking. Guy suggested not leaving any gaps between the boards and I think he is right, so I stripped out the first attempt at planking which had spaces. The spaces just didn't look right.
I also have to build an overhead light to go outside the control cabin so the operator can see the track alignment. There will be a second very dim light in the cabin. I'm not sure how often a turntable would be operated at night at the end of the steam era, but the turntable also services a diesel engine shop too so my service facility staff choose to be ready for anything!
Purchased the 130' TT 18 months ago, spent the last year trying to get this working properly. Great pains have been taken to get bench work true and level. It was installed on Midwest cork roadbed to match existing track levels. Calibration was successful. I only installed the lead track and track 2. I purchased two Walthers 3 stall round house buildings and laid out the track locations and 5 more garden tracks. This is where the problems began......the bridge would never properly line up with different types of locomotives. I don't know if weight was a factor or not. Multiple resets and calibrations failed to resolve the wandering alignment with different steam or diesel locomotives. Went over the rotation mechanism with a magnifying glass and see nothing wrong. Disassembled the contact ring.....cleaned and adjusted contact fingers and that assembly also is fine. Just when you think that last "adjustment " has corrected the problem, it would fail. Researched the various suggestions posted on MR forum to no avail. I have reached my limit of frustration. As of yesterday....TT has been returned to the original shipping container.......I glued the floors together for both roundhouse buildings and construction stops there, lids back on the box.......plywood will be replaced and the space used for something else. My experience with Walther's 130' TT has been an exercise in aggravation. As a side note.....this was the first time I worked with code 83 track and I found it way to "fragile" for my purpose. My layout consists of 900+ feet of code 100 flex track and 115 turnouts laid on Midwest cork roadbed for decades......still runs fine!
Hi EMDSD40:
Quite the ordeal! You have every right to be frustrated.
I'm hoping that my bridge will be quite stable with the kit bashed bogie assemblies. As far as I can tell the new wheels sit nicely on the ring rail and everything rotates smoothly. The bridge doesn't rock. Of course I don't have any track set up yet to test it.
I'm going to use a train set power pack to turn the bridge so I can control the speed of rotation. Alignment will be visual. I'm hoping that will work. It will be a while before I can test it.
The engine service facility will be one of the focal points for me. Having a turntable and roundhouse were two of the first requirements when I started the track plan.
Thanks Ed K.
You have caused me to stop and think about the turntable location. On second examination, it is too far away to see the track alignment properly. A little while ago I increased the size of the helix over which the turntable will sit. That added about 1' to the reach in distance. The result is that the turntable can barely be reached. Not a good plan! Back to the drawing board.
Dave.. On yur weathering .. you can try adding a bit of gray to tone it down to your liking. light or med, just a little at a time. I would also suggest doing avery small section at first to see if it has the effect you are after. If you need to remove weathering, use a q tip or cotton ball with alcohol. I have done this on painted models, and as long as you dont scrub the paint will stay...
Tony
EK Sub in HO Scale
Thanks Tony
Tone it down? Well admitedly this pic was not taken in the hey day of an actively used TT
Henry!
What a great shot!!! That is the best picture of a well used pit that I have seen! Thanks so much!
The pit is obviously well soiled from years of use. I love the rust and grease stains that have accumulated where the locomotives come on the the bridge from outside the roundhouse. The apparent water stains or wet patches look great too. I now have a much better idea of how to get the look I want.
Quite the collection of locomotives too. All nice and shiney.
Sorry that I haven't posted recently. I was waiting for some shoe dye to arrive so I could stain the bridge planks. It is 10 days overdue so I have asked for a refund.
In the mean time I have taken a shot at modelling the sort of weathering shown in the picture that Henry posted. Here is where it stands. The rust stain will be under the bridge when the bridge is set to the main turntable feed track, hence the accumulation of deposits where the most traffic is. However, the rust stain needs to be toned down significantly and made to look greasier in the middle:
Here is Henry's picture for reference:
http://www.railpictures.net/images/d2/5/1/7/3517.1478039898.jpg
By the time I get this right the pit will be filled up with paint and weathering powder!
Toned down rust stain:
Waddya think? I'll have to make the bridge really rusty to explain the stains in the pit.
It seems to me that the only thing that can explain that rust staining in the prototype pit is parking the bridge in the same position when the turntable in not being used. That makes sense in a museum setting, but would that also be the case on your railroad? And to that degree?
When I browsed my limited collection of turntable photos, I saw a couple that had some degree of staining, but nothing as severe as that in Henry's photo.
Here's another pit for your consideration.
The biggest issues were:1. Keeping the pinion teeth clean and free of debris. Many people resort to covering their table when not in use.
2. The contacts getting dirty between the finger brushes and the ring on the bottom of the bridge.
3. The cutting out of sound as the turntable crossed the halfway point.
Problems 2 and 3 are solved by replacing the center split ring/brush arrangement with a slip ring system and a DCC auto reverser.
Edit: I'm talking about the built up DCC one. But I see I am late to the party. Sorry.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
CentralGulf It seems to me that the only thing that can explain that rust staining in the prototype pit is parking the bridge in the same position when the turntable in not being used. That makes sense in a museum setting, but would that also be the case on your railroad? And to that degree? When I browsed my limited collection of turntable photos, I saw a couple that had some degree of staining, but nothing as severe as that in Henry's photo. Here's another pit for your consideration. CG
rrebell CentralGulf It seems to me that the only thing that can explain that rust staining in the prototype pit is parking the bridge in the same position when the turntable in not being used. That makes sense in a museum setting, but would that also be the case on your railroad? And to that degree? When I browsed my limited collection of turntable photos, I saw a couple that had some degree of staining, but nothing as severe as that in Henry's photo. Here's another pit for your consideration. CG Never seen that one before, filled with water and alge growing.
Never seen that one before, filled with water and alge growing.
And as bonus, a worker in the pit requires two flags, one blue, and one red with a white stripe!
CG!
Did that come with goldfish?!?
Yes, the rust stains are still way too prominent. I seem to lack a subtle touch. I should have paid closer attention to Henry's photograph. I had it in my mind that there was lots of rust but there wasn't. It actually looks more like grease and oil stains that have dropped between the ties on the bridge. I'm still learning! There is hope!!
Don:
You are not too late to the party! I'm sure that lots of folks with the built up units are watching the thread.
I have addressed the contact issues with the rings on the bridge shaft by bending the contact strips into a 'V' shape so the pressure is more concentrated. Someone suggested that earlier in the thread.
An auto reverser will still be required to keep the locomotives running in the right direction.
The pit looks better with the toning down on the bridge rust spot. I would soften it a bit further if it were my project.
BTW: I really like the other stains and debris that you added.
I can’t wait to see the bridge in place. Did you find a reliable source of Kiwi yet?
Yes, as you and CG have pointed out, the rust stain is much too prominent. My problem is that I have run out of the grey Polly Scale paint that I used for the base colour. I have several other greys but none of them is even close. I'll have to do some mixing.
Thanks for the compliment on the other stains. Henry's wonderful example was a great inspiration. However, I still have to tone down some of the white marks because they are too symetrical. Like I said, by the time I get it right the pit will be full of paint!
Take care!
Found some Polly Scale greys in the back of the paint drawer that I could mix to match the original grey base colour. Got rid of the rust stains:
Next step will be to add some grease and oil stains under the bridge position where the main access track lines up with the pit.
I came across a few photos from the NYC's Ashtabula roundhouse. NO arch for the motor power? Some turntables were air driven from the locomotive's brake pipe. Looks like wires strung along the hand rail?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/115892967@N03/13977905194
Can you fit another track in there?
Your pit is the pits!
I found a photo in the NYC Headlight Magazine where they used an old pair of tender back-up lights as spot lights at the bridge ends. I'll have to dig that up and post it...
In the meantime, in Bethlehem—
https://www.flickr.com/photos/78326321@N05/8345821459/in/datetaken/
Hey Ed:
gmpullmanCan you fit another track in there?
I don't think so!
I didn't know about air driven turntables. I haven't given much thought to how to model the power system. Thanks.
What were the wife and kids doing at the roundhouse?!? Did they let the kids run the train and they went too fast as usual?!? Seriously, it appears as though the locomotive was coming out of the roundhouse. Someone must have really messed up to have that much power applied, although I guess the locomotive would still try to move forward whether the wheels were on the tracks or not. I didn't see any guard rails on the bridge. I'll bet they regretted the lack thereof.
Thanks Ed
gmpullmanIn the meantime, in Bethlehem— https://www.flickr.com/photos/78326321@N05/8345821459/in/datetaken/
hon30critter ...it appears as though the locomotive was coming out of the roundhouse. Someone must have really messed up to have that much power applied, although I guess the locomotive would still try to move forward whether the wheels were on the tracks or not. I didn't see any guard rails on the bridge. I'll bet they regretted the lack thereof.
...it appears as though the locomotive was coming out of the roundhouse. Someone must have really messed up to have that much power applied, although I guess the locomotive would still try to move forward whether the wheels were on the tracks or not. I didn't see any guard rails on the bridge. I'll bet they regretted the lack thereof.
By the looks of it, the locomotive must've missed the tracks on the turntable by at least half...perhaps the wheels on one side on the rails of the opposite side, and the other wheels on the walkway or over the edge ot the table.At least it got turned....over.
hon30critter I didn't know about air driven turntables. I haven't given much thought to how to model the power system.
I didn't know about air driven turntables. I haven't given much thought to how to model the power system.
The CNR, and probably a lot of other roads, too, used air from the loco's brake hose to power turntables at the end of rural branchlines. Most of these locales had no enginehouse, but needed a place to turn the locomotive. The turntable might be in town, but many were simply in a field at the end of the track. There are several photos of this operation in Ian Wilson's series of books on various CNR lines in southern Ontario.
Here's a video of the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum's turntable in action. The turntable uses electric power, but the manner of power collection is not obvious.
It measures about 80 foot in diameter using Google Earth's tools, which I have found to be fairly accurate. The museum states that the turntable was originally built in the early 20th century.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9taFjeZ66mg
Thanks for that info. It seems to me that since I am modelling service facility the turntable would have its own power so I guess I'll do a tower.
Thanks for the link to the videos. I made some interesting observations. One was that the Tennessee Valley pit rail was not covered with grease, nor were the rails on the bridge. Back to the drawing board on that part of my pit.
There was a second turntable video that came up after the one you linked to. I noticed that the pattern that the grease stains formed on the bottom of the pit under the bridge when it was in its most commonly used alignment are very similar to the picture that Henry posted. I was going to plank the bridge between the rails but I'm thinking that I will not do that so I can re-create the grease stains falling from the bridge ties.
I could spend the rest of my modelling career just painting the pit over and over again!
Thanks guys!
I just stumbled across this site. They have an 80' armstrong turntable at a small engine facility that is very modelgenic.
http://hawkinsrails.net/shortlines/cagy/cagy_columbus.htm
Thanks again CG!
I thought I had seen the same roundhouse and turntable earlier today in another video but upon closer examination the bridges were different.
Thanks for the link.
Here is the second attempt at adding real wood planking to the deck. As Ed suggested, I tried to not leave any gaps between the boards:
I'm pleased with how the bridge weathering turned out.
Finally the bridge is back!! Turned out great.
nitpicky things…. (disclaimer) - you could do nothing more to it, call it done and have a great looking weathered turntable.
The rust powder on the bridge boards could be toned down slightly. The boards look a lot better in terms of spacing and gaps. – I still think it might look good with a planked center section between the rails. Does the bridge have a railing and or shack/superstructure?
I think the pit could use some loose debris in the center if that doesn’t gum up the works. It would add another layer of texture and tie the textures and colors together. The white looks really good and rest of the weathering in the pit looks good. You got some great textures and some good details.
At the very least - Get yourself a loco and a mockup of some scenery and shoot some low angle shots just to see how it looks. I think it will look great….(post them here)
Is there a place for it on the layout?
Nice job!!
It looks fantastic to me. Kudos.
The boards don't come off as being quite so 'rusty' in reality, but I have some grey wash that I could use to tone the orange tints down a bit.
I deliberately left the center unplanked because I wanted to mimic the oil/grease stain pattern that was evident in the picture Henry posted. You can clearly see a pattern where the grease has dripped between the center ties on the bridge when 'hot' (incoming) locomotives arrive at the turntable:
I have made an initial attempt at copying the grease stains but as usual they are a bit overdone and too rusty:
The bridge will have a railing and a shack. I don't care too much for the railings that came with the kit so I'm going to make my own. I will probably use the Walthers shack unless something more interesting comes to mind.
The turntable will be part of a small service facility which will include a nine stall roundhouse, all the usual fueling, sand and water supplies, plus a diesel maintenance shop, machine shop, paint shop and steam plant.
Thanks CG!
Second attempt at grease stains in the pit. Much better IMHO!
Nice job on the pit re-weather!!! You could still have that stain in the pit and boards in the center of the bridge (hey, maybe they planked the bridge recently or stuff runs down between the boards and rails…)
trainnut1250When does it go on the layout?
It goes on the layout just as soon as I have a layout to put it on. I will finally be starting to build my layout this year. It has been a long time coming. I had to wait until my son moved out and took his exercise equipment with him that took up 1/2 of the layout space. That happened in September. In November we had a garden shed installed so I can get the rest of the stuff that is occupying the layout space out of the way. Next step is to build some shelving in the shed and some storage cabinets in the garage to hold the stuff that can't go in the shed. Then I have to reduce the size of my mechanical work bench (not the model train one) and clean up several feet of storage shelving that holds my power tools and various household supplies and equipment. How fast all of that happens will depend on by back. It won't be a quick process unless a miracle happens to reduce my back pain.
Scratch built bridge railings:
This turned out to be a whole lot easier than I thought it would be. I had envisaged having to construct some sort of fancy jig to get all the uprights in the proper locations but I ended up using the bridge itself as the jig. First I drilled holes in the ends of the extended bridge ties that support the railings slightly larger than the .020" phosphor bronze wire I used for the railings. I removed the ends of every second bridge tie because I wanted to make the railings a bit simpler than those that came with the kit. Then I bent the top railings to form the uprights for both ends of the railing's span and glued the railings into place. Next I inserted the intermediate uprights into place and CA'd them into the bridge ties. After a little tweaking to get everything lined up it was a simple matter of soldering the tops of the intermediate uprights to the top railings. A couple of the 'T' joints had to be filed a bit and voila! It took me less than 1/2 hour to do the railings and the results were better than I had expected. Phosphor bronze rules!!
Wow!! The railings look great. The fine wire really works well. If I lived closer, I’d come over and help with the boxes and moving stuff for the layout.
I didn't like the Walthers bridge control cabin so I decided to design a new one. The original was a bit too clunky. Fortunately or unfortunately I ended up with almost exactly the same thing. This one has a few more exterior details. I'm bald on top so I added some window awnings. I'm always the first one to know when its raining. At least now if I am imagining myself in the bridge control cabin my head will be dry! I still have to put some sort of control panel in it.
You can also see the bridge lights. I had to pull an old Inter Mountain trick by dying the LEDs orange because their 'white' was too harsh.
Photo of my CMR 100' turntable. Arch is Diamond Scale. The roundhouse is Heljan.
A slippery slope isn't it? First you start by weathering, then its replace the boards on the tt bridge deck, then its scratch building railings and control cabins....Where does it all lead???
The cabin and the lights are Looking real good....
Here is a shot of the El Portal TT that I am currently working on.....
I know it doesn't look like much, the ground dirt is the first coat of several to come. Watching your progress has been inspiring.
Hey John:
Nice setup!
JOHN C TARANTOArch is Diamond Scale.
Is that an item that can be purchased separately? I'm looking to do something a bit different with the bridge arch. The one Walthers supplied is too bland IMHO.
trainnut1250Here is a shot of the El Portal TT that I am currently working on.....
Guy, I love the details like the support cables and the NBW castings!
trainnut1250A slippery slope isn't it? First you start by weathering, then its replace the boards on the tt bridge deck, then its scratch building railings and control cabins....Where does it all lead???
In this case I deliberately jumped on to the slope! I don't care for most 'out of the box' structures, although I'm pretty happy with my Blair Line and Bar Mills models after detailing them. I'm hoping that the origin of the Walthers turntable won't be too obvious when I'm done. Also, I'm really hoping that it will operate reliably when installed. Why else bother with it?
hon30critterIs that an item that can be purchased separately?
At one time you could, Dave. This site was last updated in 2013. I do not know what may have happened to the Diamond Scale stuff once they went out of business. There may be some tucked away in somebody's parts bin.
http://www.diamond-scale.com/pricelist.htm
Part Nos. AK 101 or 102.
[edit] Possibly, Rob's Trains in Alliance, Ohio may have some information on Diamond Scale parts? It seems the business was sold to them and this page has a November, 2016 update.
http://www.diamond-scale.com/
Might be worth a call...
Good Luck, Ed
Thanks for the links Ed. Right now I think I am in the mood to scratch build something myself. I'll have to play with the design a bit and look at some more prototypes before I proceed.
Got the bridge control cabin and lighting installed. In addition to the two bridge lamps there is a light inside the cabin as well as a light in the cabin control panel. Unfortunately the control panel light doesn't show very well:
Sorry, the pictures are a little fuzzy.
I still haven't figured out what to do with the gallows yet.
I re-installed the drive system tonight and the bridge actually rotated quite smoothly. There was an occasional minor crunch in the gears but nothing serious. I used my #85 Nano Oil to lubricate the gears and the pivot bushings. I have to say that this is another strong endorsement for Nano Oil. I tried the motor before lubricating just to see in everything still worked. It was rather noisey. After I applied the #85 the noise was reduced buy half or more and the bridge rotated at a much higher speed at the same throttle setting.
Unfortunately the contacts that provide power to the bridge track and lights performed very poorly so I ripped it all apart again to see what I could do. I increased the tension on the contacts as much as I felt I could do without breaking things, and I made some adjustments to get the contact strips to line up better with the contact rings.
I have to wait a bit before reassembling everything so I can test it again. Two of the screw mounting holes for the motor housing/lower bearing assembly broke off of the bottom of the pit. This was not the first time. I have re-glued them so now I have to wait until the glue is completely set. I've ranted about this obvious weakness in the design before. It just ticks me off that Walthers would go cheap on such a crucial part of the design.
I will reassemble it tomorrow and let you know how things worked out.
Regards all,
I seem to have fixed all the problems! The bridge power contacts seem to be working pretty well with only very occasional flickering of the lights. I'm hoping that a little run time will sort that out. I found a couple of very small pieces of epoxy that were stuck in the teeth of the large gear and causing a bit of a crunch at one point in the bridge rotation. Cutting the slot in the bottom of the motor housing turned out to be a good choice because I was able to run the motor back and forth and I could see exactly which teeth were causing the crunch. That allowed me to easily find the epoxy bits and clean them out without having to take the whole thing apart again. The noise level at normal speeds is quite acceptable. The bridge doesn't wobble at all.
See what you think. Don't worry, the video is short. I have bored all of you with my slow progress on the turntable enough already:
Thanks for your interest!
Darn... I had $2.00 on Red 12 and just missed it!
I'll bet you're glad to be this far along, Dave! That is a smooth running bridge. Someday I may have to take another look at mine. I have a Pricey New York Railway Supply setup and the stepper motor has backlash now so I still have to use the finger method to align the rails.
Of ALL the photos of gallows I've seen recently, it seems like no two are the same. After our recent discussion on the Diamond ones, above, I have been looking at signal bridge parts to see if one of those would help you but they all seem to be "minimalist" and not have the lattice-work that I'm sure you would want to have.
I'm still looking. So far, IMHO, the Central-Valley cross-lattice beams, to me, look like a good starting place.
Nice work! Thanks for sharing
gmpullman So far, IMHO, the Central-Valley cross-lattice beams, to me, look like a good starting place.
I really appreciate you helping me out! You are what the forums are all about! I'm not sure if I have looked at the Central Valley beams but I will do so now.
Thanks for your support!
EDIT: I just ordered some CV beams. I chose to ignore the cost!
hon30critterEDIT: I just ordered some CV beams. I chose to ignore the cost!
Well, here's another option...
I was having a swell time running trains tonight (five hours' worth! ) and I must have looked at this Walthers crane in my wheel shop about a dozen times.
Sure, the top beam is heavy (that's where your C-V lattice beams come in?) but the two uprights look pretty convincing. (minus the concrete footers).
Below, here it is juxtaposed (in my sixty-years I think that's the first time I've ever needed THAT word!) against the Diamond Scale gallows:
and for reference here is the white-metal Diamond gallows (I see one of my legs is crooked. These get soldered to brass strips below the decking to carry current to one of the rails.
The sides, arch and centre platform are five separate pieces and a pain to assemble. The copper wire was supposed to be temporary, twenty years ago!
The crane was part of the team track. I do not know if it is available separately?
https://www.walthers.com/cornerstone-series-r-team-track-scene-standard-kit
Here's a better photo of the Team Trak kit.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/wp-content/uploads/2002/09/ho-building-14a.jpg
Hi Ed:
I have decided that I'm going to scratch build the gallows using the Central Valley beam parts as fodder. I have a sizeable selection of Evergreen Styrene strips and shapes to use as well.
I also have a ton of brass strip. I had toyed with the idea of using that but styrene is so much easier to work with. I like scratch building a lot, but not so much that I want to be making beams out of individual brass pieces !
Scintillating video!!….Glad to see it works!!The cabin turned out well, looks very cool…
Great job on this project. What kind of gallows are you building?
trainnut1250What kind of gallows are you building?
I won't be quite sure until I see the CV beam parts. I'm thinking of fairly narrow triangular side frames with 45 degree sections at the top which will be connected to a horizontal beam which runs between them. I think I will scratch build the side frames and then use the CV parts for the 45 degree bits and the top. There will be a fake power transmission cable connected to the top of the gallows. The CV parts should be here within two weeks so I will re-post once I have the gallows structure figured out.
hon30critterThe CV parts should be here within two weeks so I will re-post once I have the gallows structure figured out.
Two Weeks! Aww, Dave, you should have let me send you a "care package" back in October.
gmpullmanWhat parts did you need, Dave? I have been kit-bashing quite a few M-E bridges, and some Central Valley ones, too. I can send you some girder parts I have left over. Many of the rivet plates from C-V and Tichy can be helpful for your arch, too.
Believe me, I have boxes of this stuff I'll never have a use for. Well, maybe your NEXT turntable then...
Don't hesitate, we're here to help!
Cheers, Ed
Sorry Ed, I had forgotten about your offer. You are a very generous person!
To be honest now that I think about it, at the time I didn't understand the sizing of the girders so I didn't want to ask you for something which would be a waste of both of our times. The CV girder selection won't be a total waste of money. I will be able to get a flat car load or two out of the spares that aren't the right size.
gmpullmanSo far, IMHO, the Central-Valley cross-lattice beams, to me, look like a good starting place.
I got the CV beams today and the smaller ones are perfect for building the gallows. They are better than I expected so thanks very much for the suggestion!
Next step is to design the gallows and install them.
I'll never look at another turntable without thinking about your project, Dave! ...And that's a good thing!
You'll notice that the type of styrene that CV uses is a very "soft" type so go easy on the solvent-cements. Only a little bit is needed.
Have fun with your lattice beams!
gmpullmanI'll never look at another turntable without thinking about your project, Dave! ...And that's a good thing!
Now you have me blushing!
gmpullmanYou'll notice that the type of styrene that CV uses is a very "soft" type so go easy on the solvent-cements. Only a little bit is needed.
Duly noted. Thanks.
I have finally come up with a gallows structure that I am happy with! I used a Central Valley small box girder, some Tichy boxcar ladders and parts of an Overland Models boxcar walkway. The only parts that will be original from the Walthers kit are the electrical hookup on the top and the gallows side braces (not shown). The picture doesn't show the box girder detail but they have the 'laced' sides. Paint is yet to come:
Here are the gallows installed. The picture is done without a flash so it's not very bright. When I tried the flash the weathering (rust powder) looked like the gallows were painted bright red. To the naked eye the weathering hardly shows. Stupid camera!
The beast is finally done, except for installation of course.
WARNING!!!
Nano Oil will destroy plastics!
I posted this a while ago and at the time I believed I was giving good advice. I was wrong!
hon30critterI used my #85 Nano Oil to lubricate the gears and the pivot bushings. I have to say that this is another strong endorsement for Nano Oil. I tried the motor before lubricating just to see in everything still worked. It was rather noisey. After I applied the #85 the noise was reduced buy half or more and the bridge rotated at a much higher speed at the same throttle setting.
Please read this thread:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/261415.aspx
Sorry to have mislead you.