sfcouple I've built a number of craftsman type kits that were very expensive but I enjoyed every minute of the dozens of hours it took to construct them. This is one aspect of our hobby that I really enjoy, I can go to my workbench cut and glue some sticks together for as long as I want and then go something else. A sawmill was needed for my logging layout so instead of purchasing a kit the mill was constructed completely from scratch. Photos from Paul Templar's Sawmill on his Badger Creek Railroad were the only 'plans' that were used. Ratio and proportion measurements were taken from the photographs, then numerous stripwood packages were ordered and away I went. The attached photograph shows the work in progress, and so far my only expense has been the purchase of the dimensional lumber ~$30. Wayne
I've built a number of craftsman type kits that were very expensive but I enjoyed every minute of the dozens of hours it took to construct them. This is one aspect of our hobby that I really enjoy, I can go to my workbench cut and glue some sticks together for as long as I want and then go something else.
A sawmill was needed for my logging layout so instead of purchasing a kit the mill was constructed completely from scratch. Photos from Paul Templar's Sawmill on his Badger Creek Railroad were the only 'plans' that were used. Ratio and proportion measurements were taken from the photographs, then numerous stripwood packages were ordered and away I went. The attached photograph shows the work in progress, and so far my only expense has been the purchase of the dimensional lumber ~$30.
Wayne
Certainly certain types of structures lend themselves to be designed for craftsman kits. Usually wooden buildings of the steam era are best suited for the individual board by board look. More dilapidated structures, like the Frankiln and South Manchester look, are suited for the craftsman kit, IMO. Your sawmill is another good example of where that kind of look is important.
I model modern era where the older structures that have prevailed through the years are made of brick and concrete. And newer structures are mainly the steel sided stuff. Styrene or cardstock works well for those types of buildings.
- Douglas
I've built a number of craftsman type kits that were very expensive; however, every minute of the dozens of hours it took to construct them was very enjoyable. This is one aspect of our hobby that I really enjoy, I can go to my workbench cut and glue some sticks together for as long as I want and then go do something else.
A sawmill was needed for my logging layout so instead of purchasing a kit the sawmill was constructed completely from scratch. Photos from Paul Templar's Sawmill on his Badger Creek Railroad were the only 'plans' that were used. Ratio and proportion measurements were taken from the photographs, then numerous stripwood packages were ordered and away I went. The attached photograph shows the work in progress, and so far my only expense has been the purchase of the dimensional lumber ~$30. I'm sure some of my measurements were off a little but overall the sawmill looks reasonably proportioned.
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
When you look to buy a craftsman kit, you may have to do a little research to find out what you're getting. The term "Craftsman kit" is kinda like "DCC Ready". DCC Ready can mean anything from 'the engine has an 8-pin / 9-pin / 21-pin receptacle, and a built-in speaker enclosure" to "the motor is isolated from the frame, and we think there's enough room to hardwire a decoder in there somewhere".
I can understand where someone used to 'modern' craftsman kits with laser-cut "tab and slot" walls and roofs, with plastic window and door castings and such would be surprised to open up an 'old style' kit with just bundles of scale lumber of different sizes and some instructions. But for the most part, up until recent years, that's what a 'craftsman kit' was.
jecorbett,This has got to be the strangest rant I've ever seen on this forum. My hard-to-build kit is so hard to build! Sheesh. Then don't buy them. There's plenty of Plasticville HO kits around and they're wicked cheap. This is even stranger than your last rant, "How can they get something this wrong" where you complained about giant gas pumps on tall curbs only to find out that giant gas pumps on tall curbs did actually exist.
When I was a kid (before High School), I built a 1/48th scale B-17G from Revell. Even tho' I knew no one would ever see the interior details, I painted them anyways. The dash, the bomb bay, the radio compartment... All these areas that you'd need a flashlight, a dental mirror, and perhaps a drill to see, but they all got hand painted by yours truly. Why? Because it was part of the fun and the challenge. The fact that I knew it was there and done right (or at least done as well as I could do) gave me more satisfaction than not doing it.
If you think HO craftsman kits are too difficult, try 1/350th scale ship modeling. A friend of mine does this, and he built a model of WWII aircraft carrier for a customer. He actually had to put in interior cockpit details in every plane on the deck. It's etched brass that folds into an open box that has to be inserted in each 1/350th scale airplane...and the kicker is that each one also has to have a joystick ACC'd in place. And you think a 4-part HO scale chair is too much trouble? Try these:
http://www.hobbylinc.com/gr/wem/wem3548.jpg
As far as costs go, every second using the laser costs money. A kit with a ton of parts will always cost more than one with few parts. Cost of materials is generally pretty low. It's how these craftsman kit makers stay in business (it certainly isn't by number of kits sold). One manufacturer told me that his boxes wtih labels cost more than what's in them. But the time to make those parts? That's what costs real money. And that's not even counting design time and just writing the assembly directions.
Paul A. Cutler III
Back when I was a newbie in HO, the equivalent to a modern craftsman kit was a detailed set of plans and a construction article in MR or RMC. You had to buy your own materials, they didn't come pre-packaged in a box, never mind pre-cut to size.
Most of the contemporary building kits were pretty primitive. Remember the old Ideal factory with the sawtooth roofline - printed cardboard with printed cellophane 'windows.' It would show up in at least one Trackside Photo every month, so someone must have thought it was a state of the art structure.
By comparison, the present-day kits remove the most tedious part, cutting all those parts from raw stock. Now it's the assembly that has graduated to 'tedious.'
My finances have never allowed me to buy those $$$ craftsman kits. I'm very glad that I learned how to go the last steps back and build from raw materials. That's especially true since kits of the structures I photographed in Japan aren't available at any price.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with methods 15 years older)
Our neighbor's boys are still in High School and they remove the snow the old fashion way---snow shovel. We only have a one car garage and sidewalk to clean so they get er done pretty quick. Oh, if I only had their energy.....it takes a lot our of me just to install one Tortoise Switch Machine, of course I'm upside down and twisted like a pretzel during the installation!
sfcouple Doughless I have a three car driveway that I like to shovel out snow by hand shovel. I feel a sense of accomplishment and save money. My neighbor preferred to buy a power snow thrower. It should be a trade off. The more money you spend, the more time and effort you should save. I hire neighbor kids to clean our driveway and walks, much easier on my ol' back and knees ;) Wayne
Doughless I have a three car driveway that I like to shovel out snow by hand shovel. I feel a sense of accomplishment and save money. My neighbor preferred to buy a power snow thrower. It should be a trade off. The more money you spend, the more time and effort you should save.
I have a three car driveway that I like to shovel out snow by hand shovel. I feel a sense of accomplishment and save money. My neighbor preferred to buy a power snow thrower.
It should be a trade off. The more money you spend, the more time and effort you should save.
I hire neighbor kids to clean our driveway and walks, much easier on my ol' back and knees ;)
And the neighbor kid we hire once in a while owns a gas powered snow thrower. Essentially, I'm avoiding labor by hiring somebody to buy a piece of equipment that allows himself to avoid labor. Funny.
He charges reasonable rates. Started as a freshman in high school. After two years, he was successful enough to buy a bigger thrower and a trailer to tote the big thrower from street to street. It allows him to move more snow at more houses in a given day. He is now known throughout several subdivisions as the guy to call. The money helped a lot with his college expenses. We were glad to help such an industrious young person.
I think he has since moved on to college and sold his equipment, so I expect this next winter to be more labor intensive...but less expensive..than the most recent winters.
Graffen:
GraffenDo you think these builds would be possible without craftsman kits?
Actually, they could all be scratch built but it would obviously involve a lot of time, research, and effort to get to the stage that the craftsman kits start you at. In many cases there wouldn't be much in the way of cost savings either.
Please understand that I am not criticizing your work or use of kits in any way. I think your work is stellar!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
This thread really shows how lucky we are to have an incredibly diverse array of products from different manufacturers to suit all tastes, skill levels and expectations. The notion of taking a completed structure out of a box and putting it on the layout has zero appeal to me. Which is odd when I think about it as I will happily do that with a locomotive. When I was modelling on a regular basis there was nothing I would enjoy more than to bury myself for hours in a really detailed kit. For value, it is hard to beat the JL Innovative Designs range of structures, they offer a nice challenge without breaking the bank.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Tom, Wayne:
Really nice jobs on the kits! I'm a bit envious of your painting skills.
Frank:
Very nice scratch builds!
Doughless jecorbett Another one of my gripes is when I spend a couple hundred dollars for a craftsman kit and find out the scale lumber needs to be cut to fit. When I spend that much for a kit, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that the parts are already cut to size. Effectively all I'm getting for my money are scratchbuilding supplies and a plan. I've found that to be true of the kits of several companies and needless to say they are getting no more of my business. ...... The more time we are willing to spend, the more money we will save. Conversely by spending more of our money, we can save a great deal of our time. Not so with s many of the craftsman kits on the market. We are expected to spend a good deal of our money AND our time. We are paying these companies for the privilage of doing extra labor. It makes no sense to me. Agreed. That's the issue I have with craftsman kits. While its great to feel a sense of accomplishment, and maybe even pay for the right to brag about your modeling prowess, I prefer to spend my money on EITHER labor or parts(technology), not both. I have a three car driveway that I like to shovel out snow by hand shovel. I feel a sense of accomplishment and save money. My neighbor preferred to buy a power snow thrower. It should be a trade off. The more money you spend, the more time and effort you should save.
jecorbett Another one of my gripes is when I spend a couple hundred dollars for a craftsman kit and find out the scale lumber needs to be cut to fit. When I spend that much for a kit, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that the parts are already cut to size. Effectively all I'm getting for my money are scratchbuilding supplies and a plan. I've found that to be true of the kits of several companies and needless to say they are getting no more of my business. ...... The more time we are willing to spend, the more money we will save. Conversely by spending more of our money, we can save a great deal of our time. Not so with s many of the craftsman kits on the market. We are expected to spend a good deal of our money AND our time. We are paying these companies for the privilage of doing extra labor. It makes no sense to me.
Another one of my gripes is when I spend a couple hundred dollars for a craftsman kit and find out the scale lumber needs to be cut to fit. When I spend that much for a kit, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that the parts are already cut to size. Effectively all I'm getting for my money are scratchbuilding supplies and a plan. I've found that to be true of the kits of several companies and needless to say they are getting no more of my business.
...... The more time we are willing to spend, the more money we will save. Conversely by spending more of our money, we can save a great deal of our time. Not so with s many of the craftsman kits on the market. We are expected to spend a good deal of our money AND our time. We are paying these companies for the privilage of doing extra labor. It makes no sense to me.
Agreed. That's the issue I have with craftsman kits. While its great to feel a sense of accomplishment, and maybe even pay for the right to brag about your modeling prowess, I prefer to spend my money on EITHER labor or parts(technology), not both.
I've looked at them, never bought one. Ever. I figure, if I'm going to basically end up scratchbuilding something, it's cheaper, easier and more adaptable to my layout to gather my own materials and details and do it from the get go. Dan
ctyclsscs You could sort of make the same statement about plastic kits too. If you want to assemble one out of the box without painting, there are kits molded in color that you can do that with. But with others, you do need to paint them, trim and file some parts to fit, and maybe add some extra details. You can take a basic DPM type kit and turn it into a super-detailed structure that can rival some craftsman level kits when you are finished. But as others have said, it's all about how much time and effort you want to put into a model. Not only that, but it allows you to have models that are unique to your layout. Jim
You could sort of make the same statement about plastic kits too. If you want to assemble one out of the box without painting, there are kits molded in color that you can do that with. But with others, you do need to paint them, trim and file some parts to fit, and maybe add some extra details. You can take a basic DPM type kit and turn it into a super-detailed structure that can rival some craftsman level kits when you are finished. But as others have said, it's all about how much time and effort you want to put into a model. Not only that, but it allows you to have models that are unique to your layout.
Jim
I see the difference in terms of price. I like DPM kits. They are simple, but the tooling is fine enough so that custom details don't look out of place. They are relatively labor intensive in terms of painting, but they only cost about 15 to 20 bucks.
If they were 40 bucks, I would consider them a waste of my time and buy other $40 kits that have separate parts so that I could the various colors as-is or spray paint them while still on the sprues.
As far as the topic of craftsman kits; IMO, part of the draw of craftsman wood kits is that styrene does not represent wood plank siding very well. There is no substitute for wood.
jecorbett Graffen To the OP. Do you think these builds would be possible without craftsman kits? It's not the concept of craftsman kits I object to. My objections are two fold. One is a number of companies aren't giving me my money's worth. If the are charging me a couple hundo for their kits and all I get are scratchbuilding pieces and a plan, that's not a very good deal. What am I paying them for if their major components don't come cut to fit. I might as well be scratchbuilding for a fraction of what they charged me. My other objection is making things difficult seemingly for the sake of making it difficult. The four part chairs I referenced in the OP are a perfect example of that. What is gained by requiring that these be assembled from tiny parts when one piece chairs that look every bit as good are available for less money. I don't mind paying for value. I do mind paying for headaches.
Graffen To the OP. Do you think these builds would be possible without craftsman kits?
To the OP.
Do you think these builds would be possible without craftsman kits?
It's not the concept of craftsman kits I object to. My objections are two fold. One is a number of companies aren't giving me my money's worth. If the are charging me a couple hundo for their kits and all I get are scratchbuilding pieces and a plan, that's not a very good deal. What am I paying them for if their major components don't come cut to fit. I might as well be scratchbuilding for a fraction of what they charged me.
My other objection is making things difficult seemingly for the sake of making it difficult. The four part chairs I referenced in the OP are a perfect example of that. What is gained by requiring that these be assembled from tiny parts when one piece chairs that look every bit as good are available for less money. I don't mind paying for value. I do mind paying for headaches.
Well here is the reality, most craftsman kits are USA made by small cottage industries, they do not benefit from off shore wages and lack of regulation. The cost to produce is in direct proportion to the prices they are charging - no different than everyone else in this business.
It has been explained already why various methods are selected for the production of various types of parts - other methods that would reduce construction time or effort would raise prices even more.
Clearly the features of these kits are not really important to you, that is why you do not consider them an acceptable value. I don't consider a Rolls Royce a value added product - others would disagree......
As with all of my modeling, I am vary open to all sorts of products. I will build a craftsman kit, or a simple plastic one carefully painted and kitbashed some.
But I understand the dynamics of producing both, and accept the cost for which ever I choose.
If you somehow think they are taking advantage of you price wise, you are very much mistaken.
In any case I suggest you simply choose other products as clearly you are not happy with the types of products in question - however, many others are very happy with those products - are they all wrong to feel that way?
I assure you these products will not get cheaper as a result of your complaints - they are likely already priced at the lowest possible "return on investment" that would justify their production........
Sheldon
ACY In my experience, I have seen very few kits that were just a bag of sticks. The only exceptions have been fences, corrals, etc. In general, the major components (walls, floor, roof, etc.) have been cut to size and shape. The "bag of sticks" consists of the parts needed to create the trim. For wooden kits, it is sometimes advisable to make these a bit oversized because there is the possibility of expansion and contraction. Once the kit is built, painted, and sealed, there should be no more changes in the size of the parts. I would much rather have an oversized trim piece that must be shortened, than a too-short piece that needs to be lengthened. I haven't figured out how to do that. Tom
In my experience, I have seen very few kits that were just a bag of sticks. The only exceptions have been fences, corrals, etc. In general, the major components (walls, floor, roof, etc.) have been cut to size and shape. The "bag of sticks" consists of the parts needed to create the trim. For wooden kits, it is sometimes advisable to make these a bit oversized because there is the possibility of expansion and contraction. Once the kit is built, painted, and sealed, there should be no more changes in the size of the parts. I would much rather have an oversized trim piece that must be shortened, than a too-short piece that needs to be lengthened. I haven't figured out how to do that.
Tom
Yes, there are craftsman kits with laser cut parts that fit together very precisely and the Branchline kits which I referred to in the OP fall in that category. My problem with them is not the major structure pieces but the detailed parts which I believe are unnecessarily difficult to assemble.
On the other hand I have spent hundreds on kits which require structural components be cut to fit from raw lumber using a template. Specifically South River kits. For instance their 5 stall engine house was a combination of the very nice hydrocal castings for the brick walls but the interior timber structure consisted of a bag of sticks and a template. Not only do the sticks need to be cut precisely to length, they need to be cut perfectly perpendicular because the structure was butt jointed together. If you are using butt joints and your cut isn't perfectly clean you aren't going to get a tight joint. In essence, I was scratchbuilding the timber interior using their template as a guide.
Trim pieces are a different story. For one they are thin enough to be easily cut and since they are decorative as opposed to structural, if you are a little off, it's no big deal. With timber framing, if your pieces aren't cut precisely, your structure will suffer. That's why I feel for the prices they charge for some of these kits, those parts should already be cut precisely.
Craftsman kits....bag of sticks...oh my! LOL..
How about a scratch built brass silver soldered chain-link sliding fence gate that works? Not painted yet. Long posts fit into holes in Homasote scenery....no need to glue them in, makes them removeable.
OP...Try Your hand at wood ship building...keel up...now there's a bag of sticks....he he'.
Take Care!
Frank
Scratch-built side porch.
While I've built a few wood craftsman-type kits and scratchbuilt even more in wood, once styrene scratchbuilding materials became readily available I wouldn't look at a wood kit even if it was given to me.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL....60 to 100 plus years ago when these kinds of wooden buildings were new in real life, it was rather common for window sash and casings to be painted different colors......
My house isn't anywhere near that old, but it has sash and casings in different colours - can't imagine a "dip job" for details like that.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL...For some of us the fun is in the building, if that is not for you, fine.
For me, the fun is still in the building, and I'm currently working on a slightly modified version of Walthers City Station - almost completely painted, including casings in contrasting colours on the sash and doors. I do likewise on most DPM structures, too, like these under-construction background buildings.....
No contrasting window trim on this, one of DPM's earlier offerings, but it was a lot of enjoyment to add details and paint it...
....and I definitely enjoy "scratchbuilding" structures using Tichy and Grandt Line details....
ACYIn my experience, I have seen very few kits that were just a bag of sticks. The only exceptions have been fences, corrals, etc. In general, the major components (walls, floor, roof, etc.) have been cut to size and shape. The "bag of sticks" consists of the parts needed to create the trim.
Alexander Scale Models NYC Freight Depot - Except for the signs, cast doors & windows, and chimney - literally a "bag of sticks". Scale drawing had to be converted from 1:1 to HO. Lighting, sliding freighthouse doors, and inside trim (windows, flooring) and walls added by me.
Suncoast Models Fairbanks-Morse Coaling Tower - Except for a few cast pieces (gear wheel, ladders), another "bag of sticks". Exterior lighting was added by me.
There is ~100 hrs of work in each one of them, for various reasons. Worth every penny I paid for the kits in entertainment value alone.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Whether it's worth the time and effort to build up windows, as opposed to using complete cast pieces, is purely a matter of individual preference. I've done both. There is a great feeling of satisfaction from doing the fine detail work, but it can get tedious. On some projects, I love doing it. On others, I'd rather save the effort.
This discussion has focused on wood kits. Before laser cutting, wood kits were much less precise. Nowadays there are also resin kits to consider. They are often considered craftsman kits because there's a lot of work to be done and some special skills to be employed. There's a lot of flash to be removed, drilling for various parts, and drilling & tapping for trucks and couplers. Those who don't want to do that work will have to buy ready-to-run, or buy a simpler kit, or pay someone to build it for them, or do without.
wp8thsub andrechapelon That's pretty much what a craftsman kit is; more expensive, more complicated, more detailed... ...You're expected to put some time and effort into putting it together. That's exactly it. One of these kits isn't intended to be equivalent to a Walthers, Design Preservation, Pikestuff, or other simple plastic model. I suppose I can see the frustration in buying a craftsman kit because you want the structure, only to find it requires a ton of extra work compared to what you can buy for less in a plastic kit. On the other hand, they are different products intended for different customers. If all you want is for something to be finished and on the layout quickly, you aren't the target customer for a craftsman kit.
andrechapelon That's pretty much what a craftsman kit is; more expensive, more complicated, more detailed... ...You're expected to put some time and effort into putting it together.
...You're expected to put some time and effort into putting it together.
That's exactly it. One of these kits isn't intended to be equivalent to a Walthers, Design Preservation, Pikestuff, or other simple plastic model. I suppose I can see the frustration in buying a craftsman kit because you want the structure, only to find it requires a ton of extra work compared to what you can buy for less in a plastic kit. On the other hand, they are different products intended for different customers. If all you want is for something to be finished and on the layout quickly, you aren't the target customer for a craftsman kit.
Also, I think the definition of 'craftman's kit' has changed. Now you have kits ranging from essentially wood versions of a plastic building kit, with the parts already laser cut, to the old style "box o' stix" that you had to cut to length, sand, seal, paint etc.
I know they give me great pleasure to build.
Sure, to each his own....
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
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You're probably right about that. Just because someone offers a kit doesn't mean everything about it is perfect or the best design possible. I can think of a few items I've purchased over the years that I just gave up on. Some of the parts were so fine that I could barely see them back when my eyes were much better 25 years ago. I don't know how anyone was supposed to paint and glue them into place. Maybe someone did, but I couldn't.
I suppose that will always be an issue as long as there are model kits sold. We all have different skill levels and how much time we want to devote to a project, not to mention that some designs may not be the best ones possible. It's not a "one size fits all" deal.
MalcyMalc And I really feel that plastic kits have a place (although I'm surprised nobody has thought of providing window / door kits to upgrade some of the older plastic models). I've certainly got several earmarked.
And I really feel that plastic kits have a place (although I'm surprised nobody has thought of providing window / door kits to upgrade some of the older plastic models). I've certainly got several earmarked.
Since I started this thread by ranting about the unnecessary difficulty in Branchline kits I feel I should give so kudos for some recent offerings from Walthers. There snap in window system is a breeze. The windows have colored frames, white sashes, and pre-installed glazing. They are a snap to install. Literally. They snap into place with no glue necessary although I will put a drop of glue on the pegs just for safety. I can install all windows in a structure in less time than it takes me to assemble and install one window in a branchline kit and they look every bit as good to me. Better still these kits really don't require painting. It used to be that if you didn't paint a plastic kit, it looked plastic, but these new kits from Walthers look as if they have been painted. The best part is they are able to offer these kits at a very reasonable price and they look every bit as nice as a comparable sized craftsman kit which would cost several times more and require probably four times as much labor.
I am not opposed to requiring extra work if it produces some tangible benefit. What I am opposed to is difficulty for the sake of difficulty. If you go back to the OP, you will see my main problem was not the 5 piece window casings because I worked through those. It was the ridiculous four piece chairs of which there are 20 in the add on interior detail kit. It is really absurd. The kit of which I am speaking has parts for two sections of the Dubois store, a pharmacy and a restaurant. The pharmacy contained parts for six sets of shelving, each in three pieces. There was the shelf back, the simulated merchandise, and the facing. That was pretty straight forward. The only tedious part to it was coloring the various pieces of merchandise which were nothing more than sillouettes. I sprayed those parts white and then used Sharpies to paint them various colors. Not real fine detail but certainly good enough for an interior where all you are trying to do is have something more than an empty shell. For the restaurant, there were two assemblies for booths along two walls. Not east to put together but I managed to produce something good enough an interior detail. There was wainscot for three walls and a counter, all a snap. There tables came in three pieces, four large round tables and two small square tables. The parts were a little brittle but not terribly difficult to work worth. Lastly came the chairs. These are ridiculous. 20 of them in four tiny pieces with very little mating surface between them which makes it extremely difficult to put together and still keep them square and level. This is a perfect example of difficult for the sake of difficulty. There is no reason those chairs could not be included as one piece items and without raising the cose. Preiser offers a set that includes 8 preassembled and 48 chairs plus an umbrella. The MSRP on the Preiser set is about $15 while the Branchline kit has an MSRP of over $37. While the Branchline kit does include other parts, they have 2 fewer tables, and less than half as many chairs. I find it hard to believe Branchline could not have included one piece chairs in their kit without raising the price one penny. Instead they gave me these ridiculously chairs which would have taken many hours to assemble and wouldn't have looked any better than one piece chairs.
It seems there are modelers who seem to thrive on assembling things that are difficult and maybe there are enough of you to keep these companies in business but if they go under I won't shed any tears for them. To me, it isn't craftsmanship to do things as difficultly as possible. It is simply inefficient use of one's time.
andrechapelonThat's pretty much what a craftsman kit is; more expensive, more complicated, more detailed... ...You're expected to put some time and effort into putting it together.
Rob Spangler
Doughless jecorbett I'm not opposed to doing difficult tasks if it produces something that is worth the effort. What irritates me is difficulty for the sake of making things difficult which it seems to be what many of these craftsman kits come with. The window casings and the unassembled chairs are a perfect example of that. Both are available preassembled so why require it be done the hard way? One of the arguments for the unassembled window casings is they allow you build them with the window open. FSM kits come with some metal window castings in the raised position. Someone else mention he liked the finer muntins that the Branchline windows have. If he hadn't mentioned that to me, I never would have noticed. In either case, the benefits are hardly worth the additional time it requires to assemble these windows. As for the chairs, I suppose someone might argue the Branchline chairs are nicer than the preassembled Preiser chairs. That's assuming of course you are able to assemble them properly, a very difficult task. And even if that is true, it is an interior detail. It doesn't need to be great looking. It is going to be difficult to see anyway. All it needs to really do is help fill an empty space. Museum quality is hardly needed. What I took away from your OP was that the kit was pricey despite not having cast furnishings and windows. It seemed to be about the lack of tradeoff between price of the kit and labor/talent needed to assemble it than just the amount of talent/labor (and time) needed by itself. I also think you mentioned that some of the lumber was not pre-cut. IMO, a "kit" that is nothing more than a pile of sticks and instructions should cost no more than $15, but I suppose there is more to it than that. It seemed like your OP was saying that you didn't feel like you got your money's worth as far as compensating the producer for what effort they put into their product. That a little more work on their end would make it easier to assemble with no loss of detail or accuracy.
jecorbett I'm not opposed to doing difficult tasks if it produces something that is worth the effort. What irritates me is difficulty for the sake of making things difficult which it seems to be what many of these craftsman kits come with. The window casings and the unassembled chairs are a perfect example of that. Both are available preassembled so why require it be done the hard way? One of the arguments for the unassembled window casings is they allow you build them with the window open. FSM kits come with some metal window castings in the raised position. Someone else mention he liked the finer muntins that the Branchline windows have. If he hadn't mentioned that to me, I never would have noticed. In either case, the benefits are hardly worth the additional time it requires to assemble these windows. As for the chairs, I suppose someone might argue the Branchline chairs are nicer than the preassembled Preiser chairs. That's assuming of course you are able to assemble them properly, a very difficult task. And even if that is true, it is an interior detail. It doesn't need to be great looking. It is going to be difficult to see anyway. All it needs to really do is help fill an empty space. Museum quality is hardly needed.
What I took away from your OP was that the kit was pricey despite not having cast furnishings and windows. It seemed to be about the lack of tradeoff between price of the kit and labor/talent needed to assemble it than just the amount of talent/labor (and time) needed by itself.
I also think you mentioned that some of the lumber was not pre-cut.
IMO, a "kit" that is nothing more than a pile of sticks and instructions should cost no more than $15, but I suppose there is more to it than that.
It seemed like your OP was saying that you didn't feel like you got your money's worth as far as compensating the producer for what effort they put into their product. That a little more work on their end would make it easier to assemble with no loss of detail or accuracy.
I think this is the nub of the issue. "Craftsman Kit" isn't a defined term. I'm just getting into building wooden structure kits and, having bought a few, there are wide differences between makers as to what goes into their kits.
It seems to me that those kits that gather the most plaudits tend to have an original, interesting design, probably some specially cast parts and most importantly, full and clear instructions. A friend in Germany sent me the paperwork from an FSM kit that her younger brother had built and the instructions were streets ahead of anything else I've seen - follow Mr Selios' instructions to the letter and you will turn out a creditable model.
Compare that with other makers who provide a sheet of A4 if you are lucky. I think, for me, a good value kit has the walls cut out, all parts provided in sufficient quantities to complete the kit to a good standard and most importantly of all, complete and clear instructions. I am fine with cutting corner posts to length etc but at my stage in modelling, clear intructions are key.
But it doesn't take long to get picky - having a Downtown Deco kit and seen the excellent brick detail achieved with hydrocal, I look askance at any maker who tries to "fob me off" with beautifully neat laser cut wood "brickwork" in an otherwise excellent kit. To each according to his own.
To me the advantage of kits is that all the parts are provided in one box and there are instructions. Otherwise you're on your own to round up all the parts and figure out to build the thing - unless you're following a good magazine article. Having built craftsman kits as well as screwdriver kits, scratch/parts built and nearly RTR, I would say they are all enjoyable. But they are different in terms of time required. A LaBelle kit makes a nice introduction into scratch/parts building wooden cars.
Older craftsman kits tend to leave more for the builder to do. Also the parts can be coarser. I have an old Quality Craft kit where the door handles on a boxcar are to be made by bending wire. But the wire was supplied - you just cut it to length, bent it, and drilled a hole for it.
One of the reasons I switched from HO to S was the parts are bigger. Easier to see and work with.
Enjoy
Paul
That's pretty much what a craftsman kit is; more expensive, more complicated, more detailed, and generally a model of an actual prototype. You could by an Athearn BB HW generic passenger car kit 50 years ago for around $3.50 IIRC (decorated, with trucks and X2f couplers) . If you wanted a prototype heavyweight passenger car, you went to Walthers and for about the same price, you got a body kit. You had to shape the roof. If you wanted it to run on the rails, you bought trucks, for about the same price. If you actually wanted to run it in a train, couplers were extra. Interiors cost more and if you were so demented as to want interior lighting, ka-ching, ka-ching. You also needed paint and decals. By the time you were finished, you would have paid well over the inflation adjusted equivalent of $100. Both La Belle and Ambroid kits were, and La Belle kits still are, essentially scratch building exercises with enough precut wood (not necessarily to length) for you to complete the job.
At the current time, there are two different sources for a Southern Pacific CS 22 station, one of which is the latest version of an old Suydam kit that dates back to the 50's. http://www.alpinemodels.com/catalog/item/2762955/2639756.htm It's relatively inexpensive, but it leaves a lot to be desired. The American Model Builders laser kit is $90 more, but it does a much better job of replicating the prototype station. http://laserkit.com/images/176.jpg To AMB's credit, they make both the "left hand" and "right hand" versions. http://laserkit.com/images/134.jpg These are not available pre-built.
That's pretty much the definition of a craftsman kit. You're expected to put some time and effort into putting it together. The June, 1959 issue of MR had an article by Gib Kennedy on scratchbuilding a Canadian Pacific 5 car wooden passenger train. The only real difference between that and this https://www.labellemodels.com/manuals/HO-1%20Instructions.pdf is that you do a little more cutting to scratchbuild one of the CPR passenger cars. Either way, it's a lot of repetitive and time consuming tasks.
Andre