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1st Time Scratch Building - Need Basic Info

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Posted by mbinsewi on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 6:48 AM

Well, Google Maps, Golden CO. shows a great top view.  Lots more angles and dormers on the side facing the factory.  And when you Google Coors mansion, you see of ...um...very interesting pictures, but only a couple of this mansion. One of the pictures is from RR Picture Archives.

Rich just posted the best roof picture, and yes they do look like shingles, but the tabs are a lot longer than the regular 3 tab shingle.  What ever they are made from, at least you know what type of pattern that needs to be created to look like this roof.

Mike.

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 6:46 AM

hon30critter

Rich:

After looking at your very clear close-up of the roof, I'm going to suggest that the shingles are indeed slate.

Here is my reasoning:

First, the shingles are far too thick to be asphalt. There is clearly a lot of depth to them.

It could be that the roof was re-shingled, the newer shingles covering the older shingles.  I am not sure that it matters though whether the roof is slate or asphalt shingle. In HO scale, the individual pieces of slate or shingle are not going to be all that distinguishable.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 6:42 AM

Photos of the Coors family mansion seem to be few and far between on the Internet. Michael acually shot his photos with a high quality digital camera and telephoto lens.

Rich

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Posted by hon30critter on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 6:41 AM

Rich:

After looking at your very clear close-up of the roof, I'm going to suggest that the shingles are indeed slate.

Here is my reasoning:

First, the shingles are far too thick to be asphalt. There is clearly a lot of depth to them.

Second, where the snow birds have been inserted under the shingles, the shingles are not sagging around the snowbirds as I had originally thought. The bottoms of the shingles clearly are straight.

I think that if you can find some suitable slate shingle roofing you should go for it. The added texture will look great IMHO.

This has been a lot of fun!

Thanks

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 6:31 AM

Hey Mike:

I'm inclined to agree with you about the snow birds.

Can you post the links to the other pictures you found? As an ex roofing salesperson I'm really curious to see what was done with the roof over time. If they ended up with that many snow birds they must have been suffering some serious problems.

Again, Rich -sorry for going Off Topic

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 6:26 AM

No worry about hijacking the thread. This is an interesting turn of events to suggest the possibility of a slate roof. Hard to say from the photos, but here is a zoomed in look at the roof and at the siding. But, I am still thinking asphalt shingles. Michael and I talked early on about modeling the snow guards but decided against it because the snow guards would be barely visible anyhow.

Rich

 

 

 

  

 

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Posted by mbinsewi on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 6:21 AM

I would say forget'em.  I Googled the mansion, not many pictures of this particular building, but other pictures I did see, the guards on not on there.  One picture shows some type of guard that runs parallel with the roof, in 3 places, spaced evenly.

This would be a great project, as I have been watching this thread.  Everything on my layout is scatched and bashed from other parts.  Even if you couldn't get correct dimensions, you can still make a structure that is proportioned right, and "fits" what the proto looks like.

Mike.

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Posted by hon30critter on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 6:01 AM

Henry:

You might be right. Certainly the ridge caps seem to have the profile of steel shingles when you blow the picture up.

On the other hand, where the snow birds (or whatever you wish to call them) are inserted under the shingles there appears to be quite a shadow, as though the shingles have been pried up. The shadows are not uniform so I'm thinking that the shingle tabs are in the process of settling down around the snow birds. To me, that suggests asphalt shingles with the snow birds having been installed in colder weather. Crappy job if you ask me.

Ultimately we can discuss the snow birds, dogs, contraptions, whatever you want to call them to death, but we're not helping Rich much with his project. (Sorry for hijacking the thread Rich). I think the real question is whether or not to model them. I would say 'no' because I think they would distract from the structure, and it would be a heck of a lot of tedious work.

What do the rest of you say?

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by mbinsewi on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 5:35 AM

And there are many types of metal roofs, too, that have the look of slate or shingles.  If it was metal, that would explain the reason for so many snow gaurds, because of the large area. 

Mike.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Tuesday, February 2, 2016 5:08 AM

I don't think it's an asphalt roof.  Looking above the dormer on the left, the edges are very prominent.  It might be slate or now they have a synthetic slate.

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, February 1, 2016 11:44 PM

Henry and farrella:

Thanks, yes, I knew what they were called. I was just being lazy. We also call them "snow birds".

The thing that is strange to me is that there are so many of them. We use them here in Ontario but there are usually only one or two rows, not most of the roof. Also, they are primarily used on metal roofs, not asphalt. However, they must have had their reasons. I would have a word with the installer though. They aren't spaced very evenly!Smile, Wink & GrinLaughLaugh

Modelling them could be tedious.

Dave

 

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by John Busby on Monday, February 1, 2016 11:07 PM

Hi richotrain

I am not great with scatch building but one thing I have learned is the .020 thickness plastic is to thin to go unsuported.

You need to frame it or stick it to a thicker support sheet.

You can use the foam core sheet as a backer sheet but you will have to be very carefull to make sure 150% sure any super or other glue is foam safe.

You will also have to do any plastic to plastic bonding the day before its stuck to the foam core and hope it doesn't twist, plastic glues will melt the foam

regards John

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Posted by farrellaa on Monday, February 1, 2016 9:28 PM

BigDaddy

They are called snow or ice guards.

 

I think they also are referred to as 'snow dogs' or 'ice dogs'.

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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Posted by BigDaddy on Monday, February 1, 2016 9:14 PM

They are called snow or ice guards.

Henry

COB Potomac & Northern

Shenandoah Valley

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, February 1, 2016 9:02 PM

Rich:

For what it's worth, the slope on the roof is about 5/12. If you are not familiar with the nomenclature, that means for every 12" the roof runs horizontally it rises 5".

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, February 1, 2016 8:46 PM

Hey Mel!

You just taught me something new - I had no clue about the browser magnifier!

Thanks

Unfortunately the picture resolution isn't good enough to see what the dark dots are on the roof but I'm guessing they are there to keep the snow from sliding off.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by trainnut1250 on Monday, February 1, 2016 6:23 PM

Rich,

Testors cement in the black triangular bottle with the needle aplicator is also very good.  It has the right solvent action and will stay wet long enough to spread on two pieces and laminate effectively.

 

Guy

see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 1, 2016 5:05 PM

zstripe

 

 
richhotrain
So, if not laquer thinner or MEK, then what?  Contact cement?  Rich

 

Plastruct Plastic Weld, Orange bottle...it contains MEK.

http://www.hobbylinc.com/plastruct-plastiweld-1-plastic-model-cement-00002?source=froogle&gclid=Cj0KEQiAoby1BRDA

 

If You lightly sand both pieces that You want to glue, it will weld better and stronger than just brushing it on. Also if You coat both pieces that You want to join and they are already drying they still will bond to one another like contact cement. Once set, You could still add more if You like it will draw in quicker to the sanded surface. Just a small edge is all that is required to sand. I use 220 to 320 grit.

And if You are worried about spilling the bottle...drill a hole in a scrap piece of 1x and insert bottle in hole, after opening, won't knock over.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

 

Thanks, Frank, I will go with that recommendation.

Rich

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, February 1, 2016 4:48 PM

Not much to work with.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by zstripe on Monday, February 1, 2016 4:17 PM

richhotrain
So, if not laquer thinner or MEK, then what?  Contact cement?  Rich

Plastruct Plastic Weld, Orange bottle...it contains MEK.

http://www.hobbylinc.com/plastruct-plastiweld-1-plastic-model-cement-00002?source=froogle&gclid=Cj0KEQiAoby1BRDA

 

If You lightly sand both pieces that You want to glue, it will weld better and stronger than just brushing it on. Also if You coat both pieces that You want to join and they are already drying they still will bond to one another like contact cement. Once set, You could still add more if You like it will draw in quicker to the sanded surface. Just a small edge is all that is required to sand. I use 220 to 320 grit.

And if You are worried about spilling the bottle...drill a hole in a scrap piece of 1x and insert bottle in hole, after opening, won't knock over.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 1, 2016 4:00 PM

I think what Dave was wishing for was the ability to zoom in on the image, not merely to enlarge it.

Rich

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Posted by zstripe on Monday, February 1, 2016 3:36 PM

All You have to do is right click on all His pic's in this thread and they will be larger.

Take Care! Big Smile

Frank

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 1, 2016 3:33 PM

doctorwayne

 

 
richhotrain
...Question: assuming that I "laminate" .020" styrene onto .040" styrene, should I use MEK, contact cement, or something else?

 

For years, I used lacquer thinner as a solvent-type cement for styrene and it worked extremely well:  styrene-to-styrene bonds were easy to make and permanent.  Even joining large surfaces (greater than 1'x1') was possible, as the lacquer thinner evapourated at a slow enough rate that both surfaces could be coated, using a 2"brush, and remain wet enough to create a strong bond.  However, I am no longer able to buy that type of lacquer thinner, as government regulations have resulted in a change in the chemicals used:  it still works well enough as a paint thinner, but no longer reacts sufficiently with styrene to create a good bond.
MEK does react with styrene and does create a strong bond.  However, it evapourates so rapidly that it's almost impossible to coat large surfaces and have both remain wet enough to create the bond.  You could start a bond along one edge, then separate the unbonded area, slip a large brush between the two surfaces and make a pass, quickly removing the brush and pressing the wetted surfaces together.  You'd need to continue in this manner until you had worked your way right across the area to be joined.

Wayne

 

So, if not laquer thinner or MEK, then what?  Contact cement? 

Rich

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Posted by Motley on Monday, February 1, 2016 3:01 PM

Here's a better closer up photo...

Michael


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Posted by doctorwayne on Monday, February 1, 2016 1:34 PM

richhotrain
...Question: assuming that I "laminate" .020" styrene onto .040" styrene, should I use MEK, contact cement, or something else?

For years, I used lacquer thinner as a solvent-type cement for styrene and it worked extremely well:  styrene-to-styrene bonds were easy to make and permanent.  Even joining large surfaces (greater than 1'x1') was possible, as the lacquer thinner evapourated at a slow enough rate that both surfaces could be coated, using a 2"brush, and remain wet enough to create a strong bond.  However, I am no longer able to buy that type of lacquer thinner, as government regulations have resulted in a change in the chemicals used:  it still works well enough as a paint thinner, but no longer reacts sufficiently with styrene to create a good bond.
MEK does react with styrene and does create a strong bond.  However, it evapourates so rapidly that it's almost impossible to coat large surfaces and have both remain wet enough to create the bond.  You could start a bond along one edge, then separate the unbonded area, slip a large brush between the two surfaces and make a pass, quickly removing the brush and pressing the wetted surfaces together.  You'd need to continue in this manner until you had worked your way right across the area to be joined.

Wayne

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Posted by mbinsewi on Monday, February 1, 2016 1:05 PM

Wow Mel, that works good for enlarging.  I totally forgot about that feature.

Mike.

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Posted by dehusman on Monday, February 1, 2016 11:27 AM

You could start with any structure you want.

You just have to be willing to accept that if you make a mistake you are willing to spend more on the learning experience.

If you have building with $200 of materials and you make some fatal error (cut all the walls and install all the window and door castings, then find you made an error on how high the walls should be) you might have to back up a $100 or so and start over.  If you start with a $10 building and mess it up on the last step, you've lost $10.

Your choice.

I would use either .020 or .040 clapboard and use styrene square strip pieces, or pieces of sheet styrene as bracing.  I would do the roof from large sheets of styrene (plastic supply houses will sell a 2x4 or 4x8 sheet of .040 styrene, sign shops can also supply large sheet styrene).

 

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, February 1, 2016 10:36 AM

richhotrain

 

 
hon30critter

Rich:

I wish I could blow up the picture of the mansion more so the details would be clearer.  

 

Rich

 

I don’t know how big you need to make the picture but the browser magnifier does pretty good. Ctrl plus the + key enlarges it to about X2½.
 
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by mlehman on Monday, February 1, 2016 10:02 AM

doctorwayne
If you're going to build in styrene, use only styrene unless some necessary component isn't available in that material. Bracing styrene with wood means different adhesives than the solvent cement which you'd use for styrene, and that would apply for pretty-well any combination of materials.

Wayne's advice is generally good. I don't disagree with it in general. I have had success using 3M 77 to bond sytrene and basswood. It stays flexible and since it covers the entire area to be bonded (it's a spray can) it doesn't generally cause the issues that using other sorts of adhesives with dissimilar materials generally cause.

There is another advantage. It allows you to cut your door and window openings in the sytrene, then you spray and apply it to the basswood core piece, then you cut through the wood using the window openings in the plastic as a guide. This is more a technique I use for masonry buildings, where a thicker wall is desired.

Others will say it's double work, but I've found it useful when I need to represent masonry and for general all around strength.

richhotrain
Question: assuming that I "laminate" .020" styrene onto .040" styrene, should I use MEK, contact cement, or something else?

Contact works if you're sure you can align properly when bonding. MEK is good when things aren't so big that the MEK can't siphon underneath to the center. So it depends on exactly what you're doing. Keep in mind that like for a lot of scratchbuilding, the best technique can vary over the course of building a large structure. After a little practice with the materials, you'll find yourself assessing each joint thoughfully as it starts becoming more obvious what's best as you gain experience.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 1, 2016 5:41 AM

hon30critter

Rich:

Doctorwayne has spoken - heed his advice!!! (because he is better at this than just about anybody else).

Agreed, Wayne's input is critical. But, not to slight others, all of the replies have been fantastic.

Question: assuming that I "laminate" .020" styrene onto .040" styrene, should I use MEK, contact cement, or something else?

Rich

Alton Junction

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