Bayfield Transfer Railway andrechapelon I'm willing to pay good money for a 4-6-0, 2-8-0, 2-8-2, 2-6-0, etc., and am aware that those engines need to sell for a good percentage of the price of an articulated. BLI's MSRP for the upcoming Pennsy L1 2-8-2 with sound/DCC is right at $500. Andre I'm kind of surprised we haven't seen more Consolidations; they were the single most common freight steamer, and the USRA Mikes were used enough that I expect we should see more offerings of them as well.
andrechapelon I'm willing to pay good money for a 4-6-0, 2-8-0, 2-8-2, 2-6-0, etc., and am aware that those engines need to sell for a good percentage of the price of an articulated. BLI's MSRP for the upcoming Pennsy L1 2-8-2 with sound/DCC is right at $500. Andre
Andre
I'm kind of surprised we haven't seen more Consolidations; they were the single most common freight steamer, and the USRA Mikes were used enough that I expect we should see more offerings of them as well.
I didn't know that about Consolidations. I love my two Spectrum Consolidations. Is amazes me how much better Spectrum is over standard Botchman. Before Spectrum, I had a standard line Botchman Consolidation. The front truck wouldn't stay on the rails no matter what adjustments I made. Finally I removed it and turned it into an 0-8-0. No problems at all with my Spectrums. I got one before sound was and option and one with sound. Both are reliable runners. The one with sound is my choice for running the peddler freight. I don't know why but I really like doing all that switching with a steamer even though I have GP7s and RS3s on the roster.
NP2626 I don't understand why this thread has been made into a kind of joke! What is wrong with reminiscing about how things were? “Back in the day” conversations are very popular with people the average age of this group! We all have fond memories of things we did and stuff we had in our younger years. This hobby, as well as most of the other hobbies a person can become involved with has gotten more expensive over the years and this increased cost is not necessarily tied directly to inflation! Obviously the majority of us model railroaders want more sophisticated and more detailed products for our railroads and are unwilling to add the sophistication and detailing ourselves, so we must pay for this service. I, for one, believe this to be a very legitimate line of discussion! The topic has broken no rules of how we are to conduct ourselves here at the MRForums! So why has this line of thought been relegated to a form of verbal prison requiring all discussion on the topic too take place here in this thread?
I, for one, believe this to be a very legitimate line of discussion! The topic has broken no rules of how we are to conduct ourselves here at the MRForums! So why has this line of thought been relegated to a form of verbal prison requiring all discussion on the topic too take place here in this thread?
Locos and even rolling stock are significantly better today than a generation ago. If you want to do an apples to apples comparison, the best way to do that is items that haven't changed much if at all. Some of the same plastic structure kits are being sold today as they were 30 years ago. Compare those and you will see that there is not much difference in the inflation adjusted prices. Some are actually cheaper today.
There is such a thing as 'hindsight bias'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias
We tend to look on the past with the proverbial 'rose-coloured glasses.' We recall the happiest and simplest of things nostalgically, but we tend to either discount, or to forget entirely, the many and varied troubles we contended with in our more distant past.
Also, while we worked, we had more disposable income, or it didn't take so long to recover from credit indebtedness. It's way different when you are well into your retirement and beginning to sweat the single dollars. Suddenly our future is not so assured and doesn't appear to be sunny. It is harder to justify indulgences that our partners cannot enjoy solely or in a shared way.
According to the 1951 entries, gas cost 19 cents a gallon. That would be $1.72. Today I filled up for $2.21.
More relevant perhaps is that a Varney "economy" Mikado kit was $41.75, or $376.91. Of course, this did not include a tender (sold separately). That was $7 or $63.19 today. Add 'em up and you get $440.10 in todfay's prices.
My parents got married in 1939 (I was born in '46). You want to complain about prices? In 1939, a Varney Pacific, with tender, painted and ready to run could be had for $75. Sound cheap? That's the equivalent of $1266.49 in 2015. The kit, including tender and insulation kit for 2 rail, was $28.75 or $485.79 in today's cash. Remarkable. Varney charged the 2015 equivalent of $780.70 to assemble and paint the engine. You can buy no fewer than 3 DCC/Sound equipped Athearn 4-8-2's at full MSRP for the adjusted cost of a single 1939 RTR Varney Pacific and a single 4-8-2 costs an adjusted $65 less than the Varney kit.
Varney had started offering plastic freight car kits for $1.50. Not too bad until you realize that's $25.53 in today's money. It would also be $3.40 in 1965 dollars.
Things were so much better back then.
andrechapelon According to the 1951 entries, gas cost 19 cents a gallon. That would be $1.72. Today I filled up for $2.21. More relevant perhaps is that a Varney "economy" Mikado kit was $41.75, or $376.91. Of course, this did not include a tender (sold separately). That was $7 or $63.19 today. Add 'em up and you get $440.10 in todfay's prices. My parents got married in 1939 (I was born in '46). You want to complain about prices? In 1939, a Varney Pacific, with tender, painted and ready to run could be had for $75. Sound cheap? That's the equivalent of $1266.49 in 2015. The kit, including tender and insulation kit for 2 rail, was $28.75 or $485.79 in today's cash. Remarkable. Varney charged the 2015 equivalent of $780.70 to assemble and paint the engine. You can buy no fewer than 3 DCC/Sound equipped Athearn 4-8-2's at full MSRP for the adjusted cost of a single 1939 RTR Varney Pacific and a single 4-8-2 costs an adjusted $65 less than the Varney kit. Varney had started offering plastic freight car kits for $1.50. Not too bad until you realize that's $25.53 in today's money. It would also be $3.40 in 1965 dollars. Things were so much better back then. Andre
Although 99% of us "get it", there are always those among us that will refuse stubbornly. (you don't need me to tell you this)
I just going to throw my hat into your ring as one who understands economics, and wants to show some appreciation for the time you have taken to argue your point, as many of us here have simply given up trying to help those whom fall on gut feelings for reality instead of hard factual numbers.
"Those Rose colored glasses..... as the song goes.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I'm not so sure that it's 99%. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance out there. If you're convinced you're being screwed in the here and now, you don't want to hear that the same situation not only occurred in the past, but that back then, they didn't even promise to respect you in the morning.
Thank you for the kind words. The phenomenon extends way beyond model railroading. There are a whole lot of nonsensical memes floating around in the world that can't be discussed here as they are not specifically model railroad related and they get you into political firestorms.
I actually got my degree in economics, although I made my living in IT. I really need to back off on this whole discussion as it's a rather fruitless exercise. OTOH, debunking the "prices are way out of hand today" meme is a lot of fun. I think I'm becoming like the horses in "Young Frankenstein" that neigh when anyone says "Blücher". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdIID_TGwhM
After giving this a lot of thought, I do not mind spending the money if its something that I feel is worth it. I just don't want to pay for all of the extra crap that I don't want. I have long enjoyed detailing and painting my own stuff and I don't want to pay anyone to have my fun for me.
I just really hate it when I hear that "we" asked for the extra stuff. I didn't ask for anything.
So, with that, I feel the prices are way too high.
The Athearn RTR stuff is just fixed up BB (for the most part) and they could easily charge roughly what the BB items cost if they wouldn't add any detail parts. Then the modeler could add what was wanted or needed. The added benefit would be the detail parts manufacturers could stay in business. Instead, a lot of details are simply no longer available.
But, that would require some to actually learn how to drill holes and apply parts. Maybe apply a little paint. Hey this sounds like the hobby of old!
I guess the past was the best for me and the way that I like to model...
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
trwroute ... But, that would require some to actually learn how to drill holes and apply parts. Maybe apply a little paint. Hey this sounds like the hobby of old! I guess the past was the best for me and the way that I like to model...
...
This part I get, even though I don't have the history in the hobby to look back on better times. I understand that happiness came from one's own efforts in times of old, even if one had to construct something from scratch. When the costs mount and the satisfaction is taken out of it, what's really left to look forward to? One would naturally look back wistfully and wish for similar circumstances.
As a comparative neophyte, I don't know any better than what I have endured/enjoyed to date. I do agree, it ain't cheap, especially on a fixed income. I don't purchase or order locomotives any more. I have 26 or 27, and should probably unload a few, but I selected each of them for their gee-whizz factor.
Sadly for many expressing their lamentations in this thread, the days where they got rolling stock for a few dollars and then got hours of creative fun out the the venture are coming to an end. The new face of the hobby is to pay more for the work that others have put into the models ahead of you because that's what the market tells the importers they should be offering to stay alive.
The popularity of ready-to-run I suspect is directly related to the fact that a lot of layouts are much bigger than they used to be.
I know a fair number of modelers who have taken early retirement and built a "dream basement" with a house over it, and for the most part thier layouts are larger than most club layouts of 40 years ago.If you're going to build a 2000 or 3000 square foot layout, you have chosen not to spend a lot of time on each individual piece of rolling stock.
And layouts that size aren't really all that rare. Layouts have gotten huge. People only have so much time.
RTR equipment has been a huge boon for those of us who love operations as the best part of the hobby.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
After giving this a lot of thought, I do not mind spending the money if its something that I feel is worth it. I just don't want to pay for all of the extra crap that I don't want.
Bought a new car lately? I can do without automatic transmissions, moon rooves, Blue Tooth capability, etc. If it comes standard in the model you want because that model has other features you DO want, you have no choice.
If you want a station wagon like they used to make, you can't really get one, you get an SUV or crossover.
The operative word here is "feel". Knowing is something else altogether.
BTW, you wouldn't think so from what I write, but I'm a cheapskate. So's my wife. More often than not we'll do a cost/benefit analysis before making a purchase of any significance.
The Athearn RTR stuff is just fixed up BB (for the most part) and they could easily charge roughly what the BB items cost if they wouldn't add any detail parts. Then the modeler could add what was wanted or needed.
What is with the obsession with Athearn BB? Why has it become the Holy Grail for all who miss the "good old days" when trains were cheap (yeah, right, I've got a bridge over the East River for sale at a real bargain price)? Has everybody forgotten the craftsman kits that were part of the hobby not all that long ago? You know, the kits that sold for from $3-5 fifty years ago and then often without trucks or couplers. Anybody remember Ambroid, Main Line Models, Binkley-Laconia, Red Ball, Ulrich, Silver Streak (now carried by Ye Olde Huff n Puff), the Central Valley old time freight cars? Anybody actually build any of these? A Central Valley old time boxcar kit (with trucks, less couplers) went for $4.75 ($35.39 today). If you were into the early 20th Century scene, you had CV or scratch building. La Belle has some similar cars (less trucks and couplers) now that run in the $20-25 range, but by the time you add trucks and couplers, you're back up in the mid 30's. If Roundhouse were currently making its old timers, they'd be going for about $25 MSRP RTR.
What added details to Athearn RTR? As far as cars go, the only changes I see are metal wheels, knuckle couplers, better paint and graphics and window inserts in caboose models. With respect to the RTR diesels, yeah, OK, more details (not to mention scale width hoods, better mechanisms, and finer molding detail). And why not? Some roads had Mars/Gyralights in addition to regular headlights (and then there's SP's light clusters). The fact that it's possible to do these kinds of detail changes at the factory level instead of delivering vast quantities of generic shells is actually a step forward. That goes double for steam when it's possible to deliver something like a USRA Heavy Mountain and a C&O J-2 as Bachmann did or an as-built SP MT-4 followed by the modernized version with skyline casing, disc main drivers, multiple bearing crossheads, and corrugated pilot. Did I mention BLI's pre and postwar versions of various Pennsy engines?
The added benefit would be the detail parts manufacturers could stay in business. Instead, a lot of details are simply no longer available.
Which parts would those be? Every time I go into The Train Shop in Santa Clara, there's a <censored> load of detail parts available for steam, diesel, rolling stock and more from Tomar Industries, PSC, Cal-Scale, Bowser (Selley and Cary). The place is also chock full of scratch building supplies. Have you checked out Caboose Hobbies list of PSC parts? Looks like most of them are in stock (they list 1393 of them). I'll let you check actual parts availability (all manufacturers carried by Caboose Hobbies). http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/index_home.php?cPath=280_281_282
Here's Walthers parts section (locomotives only). I'll let you check for stock availability. https://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Part&subc=LOCO
Structure parts: https://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Part&subc=STCTR
Rolling stock: https://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Part&subc=ROLLSTOK
No it doesn't. In the hobby of old, you MADE your own parts. I commend for your reading "Thornburgh Builds A Wabash Mogul". It was a 6 part series that ran from January thru June, 1959 (IIRC) in MR.
Completely different animal. No comparison. If I wanted to complain about car prices, I would go elsewhere.
The way that I used the word, pretty much says that I "know" they are high.
What is with the obsession with Athearn BB? Why has it become the Holy Grail for all who miss the "good old days" when trains were cheap (yeah, right, I've got a bridge over the East River for sale at a real bargain price)?
Uhh...they are used as a good example of good quality at a good price. You can insert any manufacturer that suits your needs. No one is forgetting about the other manufacturers that you listed, they just weren't as popular.
What added details to Athearn RTR?
I will never purchase an Athearn RTR car...I guess when I said the "BB" word, I should have followed it up with "locomotives".
With respect to the RTR diesels, yeah, OK, more details (not to mention scale width hoods, better mechanisms, and finer molding detail). And why not? Some roads had Mars/Gyralights in addition to regular headlights (and then there's SP's light clusters). The fact that it's possible to do these kinds of detail changes at the factory level instead of delivering vast quantities of generic shells is actually a step forward.
Maybe a step forward for you, but not for me. Again, I would rather do that myself and not pay someone else to do it for me. I am perfectly capable myself.
That goes double for steam when it's possible to deliver something like a USRA Heavy Mountain and a C&O J-2 as Bachmann did or an as-built SP MT-4 followed by the modernized version with skyline casing, disc main drivers, multiple bearing crossheads, and corrugated pilot. Did I mention BLI's pre and postwar versions of various Pennsy engines?
Don't do steam so can't comment on this.
Concerning detail parts...
Which parts would those be? Every time I go into The Train Shop in Santa Clara, there's a <censored> load of detail parts available for steam, diesel, rolling stock and more from Tomar Industries, PSC, Cal-Scale, Bowser (Selley and Cary)...
I guess you haven't looked for Detail Associates eyebolts, a Cannon switcher cab, etc. They are tough to find and the eyebolts are available every so often. Try finding any Sunrise parts for N scale diesels? They went under and so did JnJ with their detail parts. N scale is sorely lacking in the detail department. Don't get me started with the massive price increase for DA parts. The newer packages have less and the price is close to three times more.
No need to. I scratchbuilt a couple of N scale steamers back in the 70's so I do have a bit of experience doing that.
I don't understand why some just won't accept the fact that others think differently than they do.
I don't understand why people bellyache about Athearn no longer making blue box stuff.
Every hobby store and train show I go to (from South Dakota to Massachusetts) is overflowing with the stuff. In fact, that's why they stopped making it... it didn't sell. So if you want Athearn Blue Box cars or engines they're still out there in copious supply. Knock yourselves out.
Becker's Model Railroad Supply and Scale Model Supplies both have a ton of it, and they both do mail order. You're welcome.
(model trains, that is)
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Awesome.
*applause*
trwroute After giving this a lot of thought, I do not mind spending the money if its something that I feel is worth it. I just don't want to pay for all of the extra crap that I don't want. I have long enjoyed detailing and painting my own stuff and I don't want to pay anyone to have my fun for me. I just really hate it when I hear that "we" asked for the extra stuff. I didn't ask for anything. So, with that, I feel the prices are way too high. The Athearn RTR stuff is just fixed up BB (for the most part) and they could easily charge roughly what the BB items cost if they wouldn't add any detail parts. Then the modeler could add what was wanted or needed. The added benefit would be the detail parts manufacturers could stay in business. Instead, a lot of details are simply no longer available. But, that would require some to actually learn how to drill holes and apply parts. Maybe apply a little paint. Hey this sounds like the hobby of old! I guess the past was the best for me and the way that I like to model...
I agree with you to a point. I don't want to pay for lots of fine detail not because I like to add that myself but because I just don't want it. Fortunately there are options. Accurail has essentially replaced Athearn BB and for my money is a better product. I replace their plastic wheels, install KD 148 couplers, weather them to whatever degree I feel like and I have a fine piece of rolling stock. When I put together a 20-25 car train, the eye isn't going to pick up all that fine detail on a single car so why pay for it.
It's similar to the way I feel about trees. Puff balls don't make very good individual trees but they are fine for representing a forest because our eyes don't focus in on individual trees in a forest.
Bayfield Transfer Railway I don't understand why people bellyache about Athearn no longer making blue box stuff. Every hobby store and train show I go to (from South Dakota to Massachusetts) is overflowing with the stuff. In fact, that's why they stopped making it... it didn't sell. So if you want Athearn Blue Box cars or engines they're still out there in copious supply. Knock yourselves out. Becker's Model Railroad Supply and Scale Model Supplies both have a ton of it, and they both do mail order. You're welcome.
TW, what is your current inventory of engines and cars in all the scales? And what size are your layouts?
I'm puzzled, because I like to build HO kits too and there are way more craftsman kits available now than I'll get to in three lifetimes.
There is not one hobby that has not increased in price in the last 70 years. Be glad you don't hunt waterfowl. I killed my first Mallard in 1947 on thse lower Rio Grande. Shotgun shells have gone from $1.75 for a box of 25, to $30.00+ for a box of 10. George Soule decoys at LL Bean could be bought for under $50.00 for a dozen- -now they are $79.00 each, $66.00 if you buy three or more. Dogs could be had for under $100.00, today they start at $1500.00. Shotguns could be had for under 100.00. The last new pump-gun I purchased cost $475.00 for a Mossburg 835, and that was almost 20 years ago. The sport of fishing is no better. Much of my gear has been passed on from my Grandfather, and Father. I would have to think twice before becoming involved again, hobby decisions are made on an individual basis, if you can-you do, if you can't-you don't
Times change, might not like it, but they change.
I was always thankful I didn't make buggy whips.
herrinchoker
No, I haven't. The last diesel I bought was a Bowser SP Baldwin AS-616 three years ago. That's an engine you couldn't get except in brass not all that long ago. It's pretty well detailed and I don't see any compelling reason to try and gild the lily.
Just like you don't do steam, I don't do N scale. I'm sorry that JnJ and Sunrise went under. From what I can discover, Sunrise quit due to health problems of the owner. As for JnJ, I have no idea why. That's always a risk with mom and pop operations.
Cannon's still in business and I don't see that the inability to get Cannon parts has anything to do with the topic of this thread. The parts I'm interested in (steam detail parts) seem to be in adequate supply currently. I'm sorry you can't get your cab, but I can no longer get the SP style steam cabs and 70C-1 tenders that were made by MDC. Bachmann is no longer offering the SP 90C-1 tender as a separate item , either. We all have problems.
I see that DA offers an SP style headlight cluster for Baldwin switchers (at $6.50/pair). Not cheap, but acceptable if you want an SP S-12 equipped for light road duty. SP often used switchers as light road engines and they were equipped appropriately. Interestingly enough, Bowser has done the SP Baldwin with the road package. Unfortunately, it's in Bloody Nose, not Tiger Stripe. At some point in the future, they'll do the Tiger Stripe no doubt. They also have the S-12 in the traditional line in Tiger Stripe. To convert, I'd need a full set of handrails, the DA lights, number boards, DCC/Sound decoder and speakers and maybe some other parts (MU stands, air hoses, cab sun shades). Might end up costing the same as it would if I waited for the Executive line Tiger Stripe version. Oh well.
On the contrary, I do understand that you like to detail the bejeezus out of diesels. Sounds like fun. Not cheap, however, any more than detailing a steam engine. Walthers wants $7 for a PSC SP pressed steel pilot http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/585-3291 and another $5 for the correct pilot beam. http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/585-3308 . I'd like an SP P-6 (used on the "Del Monte") circa 1953/54. Realistically, the only way one will ever be available (other than $2000+ brass) would be to use a Bowser or Mantua Pacific frame and cylinders (modified for alligator crossheads) and go from there. 3 sets of 77" spoked drivers from Greenway will cost $54. We're at $66 already. I could pick up a Mantua Pacific for probably $40-50 off eBay. OK, we're at $106-116. We're going to need a motor and gearbox. Just the motor and gearbox alone run around $60, but that requires more study. Rods and valve gear should be reusable. OK $166-176 so far. OK we need a trailing truck. Greenway has one close to prototype for $45. We're well over $200 and we don't have injectors, check valves, train indicators, washout plugs, compressor, air tanks, boiler steps, bell, whistle, safety valves, SP style stack, smokebox front, power reverse, blowdown spreaders, classification lamps, brake hangers, handrail posts, and assorted wire sizes for piping. We also don't have a tender. If a loose 90R-1 tender can be found, we're probably looking at $175-200. Otherwise, it'll probably have to be scratchbuilt. Fortunately, plans for a coal version (used by the Alton) appear in the Kalmbach Steam Locomotive Cyclopedia. Even with a scratchbuilt tender, we're probably looking at upwards of $350 for a DC engine. The hobby's not cheap. That's the way it's always been. especially if you want highly detailed models or models that aren't commercially available.
trwrouteThe Athearn RTR stuff is just fixed up BB (for the most part) and they could easily charge roughly what the BB items cost if they wouldn't add any detail parts. Then the modeler could add what was wanted or needed. The added benefit would be the detail parts manufacturers could stay in business. Instead, a lot of details are simply no longer available.
Don't forget the souped up ex-Roundhouse cars and Rail Power shells they use..All have detail errors according to the detail Gurus on various forms.. The various QA/QC issues you may get depends on the roll of the QA/QC dice.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Bayfield Transfer Railway The popularity of ready-to-run I suspect is directly related to the fact that a lot of layouts are much bigger than they used to be.
I think the advent of wireless walkaround throttles facilitated that. I know plug in walk around throttles have been around for a long time but wireless has made walk around layouts much more appealing. In the old days when you were tethered to your power station, there was a practical limit to how big your layout could be. More typical was a layout with an operating pit from which you could reach all parts of the layout.
I know a fair number of modelers who have taken early retirement and built a "dream basement" with a house over it, and for the most part thier layouts are larger than most club layouts of 40 years ago.
That would be me. I retired in 2001 after building a house with a rectangular 28X48 foot basement to accomodate a large walkaround layout. The stairs and mechanicals were positioned not to interfer with the layout design. I never dreamed that 14 years later I'd still be building the layout. The mainline was completed several years ago but I am just now starting the large branchline which will run along both sides of a long center peninsula. I envisioned myself spending 8 hour days in the train room but I quickly discovered that can be mentally fatiguing. Also, even in retirement, there are plenty of other things that I either want to do or have to do that occupy my time. Model railroading is still just a part time hobby and just for part of the year, the cold weather months.
If you're going to build a 2000 or 3000 square foot layout, you have chosen not to spend a lot of time on each individual piece of rolling stock. And layouts that size aren't really all that rare. Layouts have gotten huge. People only have so much time. RTR equipment has been a huge boon for those of us who love operations as the best part of the hobby.
You and I think along the same lines. My time is more valuable than my money but I don't have an unlimited amount of either so I have to balance the two. There are parts of layout building I enjoy such as scenery but for the most part it is a means to an end. I want to run trains through a fully scenicked layout and the sooner the better. I have only recently begun full blown operations on the mainline and the planned branchline is now just a dummy interchange. I hope to have the branchline up and running within a year. It will be a mix of prebuilt and kit built structures with a few craftsman kits as show pieces. I already have all the locos and rolling stock my layout can accomodate but I have about two dozen Accurails kits sitting on the shelf. I can throw those together with KD couplers and metal wheels added in about 10 minutes so they are almost as good as RTR. I would guess about a third of my rolling stock is RTR with KD couplers added. Also, I've bought a lot of used equipment so only about half my roster is kit built cars.
jecorbett ... I envisioned myself spending 8 hour days in the train room but I quickly discovered that can be mentally fatiguing. Also, even in retirement, there are plenty of other things that I either want to do or have to do that occupy my time. Model railroading is still just a part time hobby and just for part of the year, the cold weather months. ...
I envisioned myself spending 8 hour days in the train room but I quickly discovered that can be mentally fatiguing. Also, even in retirement, there are plenty of other things that I either want to do or have to do that occupy my time. Model railroading is still just a part time hobby and just for part of the year, the cold weather months.
Yes, that was my plan also.
I'm lucky to spend 8 hours a week.
Oh well, it's a hobby, not a job.
Enjoy
Paul
Just checking back in..... are we all done now discussing the "way back whens", and the "many different inflation calcs" we can use, and focus on the original problem of how to reduce the high prices?
Still looking for suggestions (good, valid ones!) that havent been mentioned yet. These have been beaten to death - to wit: how to model on the cheap, how and where to buy for less, etc etc. Neither of which drops the prices to where they should be.
I will check back again, if the thread doesnt get yanked for all the off topic irrelevence and bantering. I see Cousing Vinnie has been here!
PM Railfan
PM RailfanStill looking for suggestions (good, valid ones!) that havent been mentioned yet. These have been beaten to death - to wit: how to model on the cheap, how and where to buy for less, etc etc. Neither of which drops the prices to where they should be.
So, your question then, is how does one personally get manufacturers to drop their prices. Is that correct?
maxman So, your question then, is how does one personally get manufacturers to drop their prices. Is that correct?
Hey there Maxman!
More like.... how do the 'many' (modellers who think the prices are high) get manufacturers to drop their prices. That would be correct.
And I say many because 'one' would hardly get noticed. 'One' isnt the number of folks who do think the prices are high. We already know how to model on the cheap. We already know if we dont like the prices, dont buy. Thats the simple easy way out. It does nothing to change the prices, or bring any allure back to the hobby. And like any other problem in life, if left alone, it will fester and become worse.
Anyone here can take a total of the users who have responded, some are ok with the prices, some dont care, and the rest think the prices are too high. In any case, the number is more than 'one'.
I have on good suspicion this thread was allowed for positive results to be discussed. Not so much what has been going on here. I am trying to make a simple request....
What, for those that believe prices are too high, can be done about it?
PM RailfanMore like.... how do the 'many' (modellers who think the prices are high) get manufacturers to drop their prices. That would be correct.
Now that the question has been better established, the answer seems to be if you don't like the price of something, don't buy it. If all the "yous" got together and as a group decided not to buy something, those products would languish on the shelves and would eventually no longer be offered.
I am having difficulty understanding why you want to blame the manufacturers for the price levels. You should be blaming the enablers, those who are willing to pay those prices and therefore encouraging the manufacturers to keep doing what they are doing.
maxman PM Railfan More like.... how do the 'many' (modellers who think the prices are high) get manufacturers to drop their prices. That would be correct. Now that the question has been better established, the answer seems to be if you don't like the price of something, don't buy it. If all the "yous" got together and as a group decided not to buy something, those products would languish on the shelves and would eventually no longer be offered. I am having difficulty understanding why you want to blame the manufacturers for the price levels. You should be blaming the enablers, those who are willing to pay those prices and therefore encouraging the manufacturers to keep doing what they are doing.
PM Railfan More like.... how do the 'many' (modellers who think the prices are high) get manufacturers to drop their prices. That would be correct.
Exquisitely precisely. That is the logic. A market is driven by custom. The customer presents the demand and the supplier cashes in as long as the demand is there. This hobby is no different; the various businesses have to provide livings for their members and owners, but won't be able to do that providing items that don't have sufficient appeal to prospective buyers. Those wanting to blame someone for their marginalization should really be targetting the people who provide the custom...the market. Those who feel they are hard done-by ought to tell the market they're all screwed up and should change their interests to something more like their own.
I predict it will be a highly popular appeal.
Maxman,
Its the manufacturers, dealers, middle men, who ever etc etc, that set the prices, not the enablers. I kinda see it as a symbiotic thing that just doesnt need to exist in this hobby. Because without the enablers, the aforementioned folks wouldnt be seeing that they could do this, and actually get the $$$.
And i cant see there being that many of us that think things are high, that product would languish on the shelves. Thats now, but growing. How about ten years from now when new locos jump another $100..... $200? Who is gonna be willing to shell out $500 for a single, new, HO diesel loco?
And if things are languishing... that means someones gonna go out of business. One of those manufacturers, dealers, middle men etc etc. That too is out of the question. That exactly is what NO ONE wants. No matter what side of the fence your on in this discussion.
Just as a "what if", think IF it actually happened that Athearn went out of business because we simply 'didnt buy from them' because of high prices?
I am aware, for such a simple question i pose, the answer would be complicated. I know the makers need food on their table. Well so do we. If it comes down to my diner or theirs, looks like i just dont buy. Again, thats been covered. And covered, AND covered. It still doesnt solve the problem because i didnt get a model, and the maker didnt get food on their table.
There has to be a way, a simple way to put food on both tables, and trains in our hands.... at the same time. For a hobby that claims to be so innovative, i figured the collective modellers here, would be able to 'kitbash' a working answer. Something positive.
So far, i havent heard anything in that direction. I just dont want to have to buy on the cheap. I dont want to have to not buy from those who provide alot in this hobby. I would like to find an answer to this.
I am not trying to blame anyone here. Instead, i think the term that applies here is "responsible for". I am not trying to do the point the finger thing by soliciting blame. That will get this thread expelled quickly.
PM Railfan I am not trying to blame anyone here. Instead, i think the term that applies here is "responsible for". I am not trying to do the point the finger thing by soliciting blame. That will get this thread expelled quickly. PM Railfan
However you want to define it, the bottom line as I see it is that it is a simple matter of supply and demand. Some one (or some ones) sets the price. So long as there are enough individuals who are willing to pay the price, the producers will continue to produce.
Now to address your previous post where you have a concern that someone will go out of business if their products are not purchased, well, sorry to say this but that's the way it is. They will either need to adjust their costs to be in line with what someone is willing to pay, develop a less expensive product, or go out of business. And if they go out of business maybe someone else will step up to the bar and produce items at a price level with which you are comfortable.