maxman bnsf1 There's a potential downside in putting sound in all locomotives, but it may mean lower costs through economy of scale. As for those who don't want it, I believe most decoders use F8 as a mute. Again I'm afraid I have to disagree. You are now breaking down to market into three groups: those who are happy with sound; those who like DCC but don't want sound; and those who neither want sound or DCC. I don't believe that the manufacturers are going to sell the sound locos cheaper to subsidize non-sound DCC or non-DCC locos. So that makes the sound lovers unhappy because they don't want to pay an additional $90 per loco. Then the DCC non-sound folks are unhappy because they don't want to pay the difference between the sound decoder price and the non-sound decoder price. Yes they can press F8, but why should they have to? And the non-DCC folks are unhappy because they view the addition of any decoder as jacking the price up unnecessarily, and then they have to rip the decoder out anyway. So, what is the manufacturer to do?
bnsf1 There's a potential downside in putting sound in all locomotives, but it may mean lower costs through economy of scale. As for those who don't want it, I believe most decoders use F8 as a mute.
Again I'm afraid I have to disagree. You are now breaking down to market into three groups: those who are happy with sound; those who like DCC but don't want sound; and those who neither want sound or DCC.
I don't believe that the manufacturers are going to sell the sound locos cheaper to subsidize non-sound DCC or non-DCC locos. So that makes the sound lovers unhappy because they don't want to pay an additional $90 per loco.
Then the DCC non-sound folks are unhappy because they don't want to pay the difference between the sound decoder price and the non-sound decoder price. Yes they can press F8, but why should they have to?
And the non-DCC folks are unhappy because they view the addition of any decoder as jacking the price up unnecessarily, and then they have to rip the decoder out anyway.
So, what is the manufacturer to do?
I think you meant to reply to someone else.
My original post questioned whether or not the cost of sound decoders would be reduced if all models with decoders installed had them instead of non-sound.
It didn't involve DCC vs DC.
bnsf1As for those who don't want it, I believe most decoders use F8 as a mute.
And they pay for a item they do not want?
Ever wonder why there is DCC Ready,DCC equipped and DCC/Sound? That fills the current market requirements.
BTW.History does repeat its self.. This same discussion was debated on the old Atlas forum except it was for DCC equipped locomotives.
And we still have DCC ready locomotives.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
IRONROOSTER Without getting into the quality involved I see on modeltrainstuff.com Bachmann 4-4-0's for sale with DCC with sound and DCC without sound. List is $140 difference Discount is $105 difference Sale is $80 difference Their Bachmann old time 4-4-0's are DCC and sound vs DCC ready List is $80 difference Discount is $57 difference Sale is $50 difference So the sound adds significantly to the price for those who don't want sound (or don't like the sound the manufacturer chose). I think the option of the DCC ready decoder 8 pin socket (as in the old time 4-4-0) is the way to go. That way you can easily add the DCC or DCC + sound decoder of your choice. Or stay DC if DCC isn't for you. Enjoy Paul
Without getting into the quality involved I see on modeltrainstuff.com Bachmann 4-4-0's for sale with DCC with sound and DCC without sound.
List is $140 difference
Discount is $105 difference
Sale is $80 difference
Their Bachmann old time 4-4-0's are DCC and sound vs DCC ready
List is $80 difference
Discount is $57 difference
Sale is $50 difference
So the sound adds significantly to the price for those who don't want sound (or don't like the sound the manufacturer chose).
I think the option of the DCC ready decoder 8 pin socket (as in the old time 4-4-0) is the way to go. That way you can easily add the DCC or DCC + sound decoder of your choice. Or stay DC if DCC isn't for you.
Enjoy
Paul
I agree that sound does add a significant cost to a locomotive.
However, the question I posed in my original post was, would the cost of sound be decreased or at least held down by manufacturers using sound decoders in all models with decoders installed?
Obviously they have the option of offering the units with no decoders at all, as in the Atlas HO GP 38/40s.
In that case, you can order one without a decoder and do what you want.
But, there are still models out there with non-sound decoders installed.
Let's look at it this way.
A manufacturer decides to release a model. For arguments sake they expect to sell 1,000 of them.
If they figure half will sell with a sound decoder, the other half with a standerd decoder, the cost of the development of that sound decoder is spread across 500 units.
I'd be beyond surprised if they can't get a better price per decoder with an order of 1,000 as opposed to 500.
Which is back to the original point of this post.
Would it reduce the per unit cost if manufacturers installed them in all models with decoders?
bnsf1There's a potential downside in putting sound in all locomotives, but it may mean lower costs through economy of scale. As for those who don't want it, I believe most decoders use F8 as a mute.
JEREMY CENTANNI Or will they make us eat more dirt? ... Discuss.
Or will they make us eat more dirt?
...
Discuss.
Last time anybody made me eat dirt was some time during the 60's...very early in the 60's. Since then, I have only voluntarily tasted dirt. It was only ever, and always, my own choice. In the context of this hobby, nobody has ever held a gun to my head. I paid for stuff if I wanted it badly enough. That's the general rule.
Hornblower gets it(I also have heard of Carvin(mild audio enthusiast in me))
There is a lot of hosing the end consumer in lot of model railroad products. Go check prices not even ten years old in magazines and look at the same thing now.
Last time I checked my house isn't worth 50% more and my grocery bill is not 50% more either they have gone up, but nowhere near the same rate.
Why would they say Tsunami is dead while rolling out the Economi without a replacement for the Tsunami? I might be missing something but isn't that about the dumbest business decision you ever heard of?
[/quote]
maxman bnsf1 but the point is that if you want one of these with a decoder - you're getting sound. Many of those P2K units talked about in another thread have this option, and those non-sound units can be purchased at very reasonable prices.
bnsf1 but the point is that if you want one of these with a decoder - you're getting sound.
Many of those P2K units talked about in another thread have this option, and those non-sound units can be purchased at very reasonable prices.
Good point.
What I meant to say is that if you want a unit with the decoder already installed, as some prefer, then it's sound on these units.
Never mind
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
No. If you want one with a decoder but no sound, you buy the non-sound version and install a $12 to $15 non-sound decoder.
hornblower I always thought there'd be a larger market for lower cost sound decoders using more generic sound files rather than highly mastered prototype specific sounds. I'd never expect a 1 watt amplifier driving a 1" diameter speaker to reproduce super realistic prototype sound quality, anyway. It's just not going to happen. Yes, a $100 sound decoder is likely going to sound better than a $40 sound decoder, but I usually end up turning the sound volume way down so that the combined sound of half a dozen locos doesn't drive me nuts. As long as I my locos can sound a horn/whistle at a grade crossing, most of my operators are happy. Super slick sound files are not going to help my operators switch an industry.
I always thought there'd be a larger market for lower cost sound decoders using more generic sound files rather than highly mastered prototype specific sounds. I'd never expect a 1 watt amplifier driving a 1" diameter speaker to reproduce super realistic prototype sound quality, anyway. It's just not going to happen. Yes, a $100 sound decoder is likely going to sound better than a $40 sound decoder, but I usually end up turning the sound volume way down so that the combined sound of half a dozen locos doesn't drive me nuts. As long as I my locos can sound a horn/whistle at a grade crossing, most of my operators are happy. Super slick sound files are not going to help my operators switch an industry.
This discussion may be out-of-date already.
I confirmed that the Atlas HO GP 38/40s are available in two versions.
Silver - deocder plug but no decoder
Gold - sound decoder installed
I'm not sure if they and/or other manufacturers have been doing this for a while, but the point is that if you want one of these with a decoder - you're getting sound.
SoundTraxx is coming out with a new line of sound decoders. No idea when. Thought that was common news. The tsunami design is at least ten years old and some parts not available anymore.
To my knowledge, any brand with on board sound are made by SoundTraxx specifically for the selling company. I have some Bachmann with on board sound and not individually available from Bachmann.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I think the fundamental answer is there's more profit in a sound-equipped loco. The profit in non-sound units is likely a lot closer to break-even than most suspect. Depending on who you ask, sound makes up 50% or more of the market. In some ways, those of us who favor sound may be subsidizing those who do not. Some may see that as a bad thing. I suspect whatever extra profit there is in sound helps support less profitable, but still necessary aspects of the hobby. Take those away, however noble the intentions may be, and you may simply starve the hobby fatally. Like high profit products at the grocery store, they help make the selection it carries wide and deep. Otherwise you might be eating cornflakes and hamburger everyday.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
DCC sound decoders seem to average around $100. Non-sound decoders seem to average around $30. Thus, we are paying around $70 for a typically 1 watt (RMS, max, peak?) amplifier and a memory chip to hold the sound files. Even if we subtract another $20 for the sound chip, $50 per watt is not much of a deal for an amplifier. Anyone can buy a Carvin DCM2000L two channel power amplifier with 325 watts RMS per channel at 8 ohms for $399. That's 61 cents per watt for a touring quality amplifier that is so robust it can safely drive a 2 ohm load for hours. Just see how long your $50 1 watt amplifier will live driving a 2 ohm load. It certainly won't produce 20 to 20K Hz at <.1% distortion either. Before you counter with the old market volume response, keep in mind that Carvin is selling to a rather limited market, too. Their market is so small, you probably haven't even heard of them!
Hornblower
BRAKIE bnsf1 I wonder if the manufacturers could take a cue from auto companies and save costs by making it a standard feature. That sounds good in theory but,how about those that don't want sound? I would not want all of my locomotives sound equipped. My personal thought. Sound is so much more when used with DCC since you can select the correct horn type and bell ring speed.
bnsf1 I wonder if the manufacturers could take a cue from auto companies and save costs by making it a standard feature.
That sounds good in theory but,how about those that don't want sound?
I would not want all of my locomotives sound equipped.
My personal thought. Sound is so much more when used with DCC since you can select the correct horn type and bell ring speed.
Hi Brakie,
Again, that's the same argument you could make about a lot of things we buy.
But, what if I don't want "whatever".
There's a potential downside in putting sound in all locomotives, but it may mean lower costs through economy of scale.
As for those who don't want it, I believe most decoders use F8 as a mute.
It seems that for every modeler who doesn't like sound, there's one who won't buy a unit without it.
Not the best situation when it comes time to sell.
bnsf1I wonder if the manufacturers could take a cue from auto companies and save costs by making it a standard feature.
gmpullman "Sell the Sizzle—Not the Steak!" That marketing ploy has been around for ages. bnsf1 I wonder if the manufacturers could take a cue from auto companies and save costs by making it a standard feature. Saves costs for them and becomes a huge profit generator. Now they are bundling "convenience packages" they may add a few hundred dollars to the production cost but at the retail level it adds a significant amount to the price of the automobile. I remember when the intermittent wiper came along. Automakers made millions on a simple addition of a few electrical components. The same holds true in housing, clothing, food and just about any consumer commodity. The marketers call it "value-added" but what they are really saying is, add a little bling and we can charge much more and reap the profits. Regards, Ed
"Sell the Sizzle—Not the Steak!"
That marketing ploy has been around for ages.
Saves costs for them and becomes a huge profit generator. Now they are bundling "convenience packages" they may add a few hundred dollars to the production cost but at the retail level it adds a significant amount to the price of the automobile.
I remember when the intermittent wiper came along. Automakers made millions on a simple addition of a few electrical components.
The same holds true in housing, clothing, food and just about any consumer commodity. The marketers call it "value-added" but what they are really saying is, add a little bling and we can charge much more and reap the profits.
Regards, Ed
There's no disbuting that.
I remember the first car I ordered.
It was a long process. I had to go through a whole page of options and choose the ones I wanted. You don't get to cherry-pick like that now.
They could write deals for the same model car all day and no two of them would be the same.
But, I wouldn't want to go back to those days.
I'm sure the cost of having to build what amounts to a custom order now would be cost-prohibitive.
Like it or not, we live in an economy based on package deals.
The comparison to vehicles may not be the best, but I think the principle is still valid.
Whether or not it would make a reasonable difference in the price would be somthing only the manufactures would know for sure.
The other question is, would they pass the savings along?
If not, at least it might help hold the line for a while.
GE added a tiny amount of neodymium to the glass of a Reveal® household lamp. It added less than a penny a bulb to the production cost but the retail price was three times what a regular soft white lamp was selling for. Shareholders love that stuff!
wjstix Um, ya, I don't recall any engines that were only available with sound and DCC?? Most listings show two prices, one for DC and one for DCC/Sound - usually with a sizeable difference between the two prices
Um, ya, I don't recall any engines that were only available with sound and DCC?? Most listings show two prices, one for DC and one for DCC/Sound - usually with a sizeable difference between the two prices
Dear Sir (or Madam)--
You need to get out more.
Every BLI engine, including all the brass hybrids are now only available with sound and DCC. So, if you want the model--and they are generally fine models that run well, whether lesser expensive plastic or diecast or hybrid--you have to pay for the extra features, because they stopped any DC-only or non-sound production. Likewise, I'm pretty sure MTH does not offer any stripped down non-sound steam power.
The industry trend is following BLI. Bowser's recent pre-orders are now for more than 50% sound and DCC, meaning the low cost non-sound versions are approaching 45% in pre-orders if not less (it varies by product). The day is coming when more importers will follow BLI's methodology, to simplify item numbering, or for whatever reasons. (To be clear, Bowser has not stated any intent to do that).
I actually do like sound--in moderation--but it has also come to light that some of the sounds being incorporated into the engines are incorrect for the given prototype. Now, most of the PRR offerings have dead on correct whistles for PRR. But the offerings for other railroads allegedly have (I was not there during the steam era and cannot confirm) sounds that are not correct...including up to 3 whistle options none of which is correct for some engines.
IF I'm going to be forced to buy sound and DCC, I want sounds that are actually correct for the given locomotive being offered (Rapido does take care of this). At least some of the manufacturers think generic sounds are ok--and I know that diesel fans have the same complaints.
In my 40 years plus in this hobby, prices rarely go down (excepting the more recent shipping/oil price related modest adjustments that some importers were able to offer).
But for me any sound becomes just noise after awhile, and for actual layout performance I wish there was a way that the sound cams or indexing in rtr steam locomotives could be easily disconnected so that the related cogging effect in some steamers could be eliminated. Some of the latest engines seem to have fixed the cogging, but when you turn off the sound, an annoying clicking sound can still be heard multiple times per drive axle rotation.
DC/DCC I don't really care because my MRC controller can run both and operate the sound features and change configuration variable settings, but I don't like being forced to pay for the decoders and installation and sound. Added up, over perhaps 10 engines, the price difference would easily buy a nice brass hybrid steamer, if not something even nicer. For me it's simple economics: I don't like paying for stuff I don't use beyond the first hour or so of operation. Money is money.
Imo newbies are being priced out of the hobby, unless they are train show bargain hunters...but how many stick around long enough to learn that???
John
All my DC engines have been relegated to the shelf or sold. The more, better and electronics they can squeeze into my engines the better.
There is nothing like sound when running my trains.
JEREMY CENTANNI Or will they make us eat more dirt? Retail your talking a $40 difference. Discuss.
Retail your talking a $40 difference.
I'm not sure what you are getting at. OEM version decoders by Sound Traxx are already included with "factory equipped" models that come with sound so this discussion is moot. Nothing changes and nothing to discuss.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Agree with Stix, DC only or DCC ready locos abound at roughly $100 less than DCC sound for the same loco. Lots of choices. Sounds like some have an axe to grind against DCC and sound. Bachmann dc locos can be had for well under $100 if you shop just a little.
Um, ya, I don't recall any engines that were only available with sound and DCC?? Most listings show two prices, one for DC and one for DCC/Sound - usually with a sizeable difference between the two prices.
PRR8259 I don't need, don't want, sound at all, but unfortunately there's enough who do and they are vocal enough, desirous of better features enough, that the manufacturers feel compelled to provide that--and to make everybody else typically pay more for it. John
I don't need, don't want, sound at all, but unfortunately there's enough who do and they are vocal enough, desirous of better features enough, that the manufacturers feel compelled to provide that--and to make everybody else typically pay more for it.
Someone has a gun to your head forcing you to buy sound equiped locos? Many modellers like sound. When I realized I would be unable to build the hugh basement empire of my dreams, I bought a few sound diesels and began selling my DC locos and hundreds of lesser detailed rolling stock. I never pay "list" for anything. Prices have skyrocketed for everything in the hobby. Most new DC engines are pushing $100 or more, even those without a lot of detail. Many of us enjoy DCC and sound. If you don't, spend your money elsewhere, you shouldn't look down your nose at us. That's the great thing about this hobby, we have lots of choices.
PRR8259I don't need, don't want, sound at all, but unfortunately there's enough who do
Do I detect just a little bit of a bias?
Seriously, this is the electronics age, which means we always have to pay for gadgets and gimmicks we don´t need and don´t want.
There's a classic pop song lyric that comes to mind:
"Dream, dream, dream, dream..."
Suggested retail prices rarely go down in this hobby, unless it's an item that nobody really wants in the first place or the manufacturer dramatically overproduced and can't get rid of.
This is just another reason for me to switch to good late model ho brass, from before the sound and DCC craze.
Among other things, I believe your premise is wrong. AFAIK, the Econami is not being offered as an OEM decoder by Soundtraxx. I've only seen Soundtraxx offer an OEM decoder as some form of Tsunami. Athearn has already announced their first loco with the next gen top of the line decoder from Soundtraxx, their Challengers due in December. Blackstone will be offering its K-36 with a version of it in 2017. Pricing seems in line with the Tsunami-equipped locos they offered previously. Nothing concrete yet, but I suspect the new/next gen Tsunami will offer a number of improvements over the recently discontinued Tsunami.
I won't tell Sheldon (or anyone else) that he can't debate the merits and drawbacks of DCC, but I do have to say, this isn't the thread to do it in.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Doughlessthe older big blue box version of the sw8/9 made by LifeLike...work well for transistion era layouts, or modern era layouts like your ISL. However, they are a switcher and some may want a bigger loco.
Not a problem. Do like the Cambria & Indiana and others did. MU as many as you need together and you're ready for mainline action. I've always like that look myself. Found out the C&I was gone and it was kind of sad.