PRR8259 More features drove pricing higher, and perhaps folks here are ignorant of clothing prices which have significantly higher margins than hobby margins.
More features drove pricing higher, and perhaps folks here are ignorant of clothing prices which have significantly higher margins than hobby margins.
Clothing is less of a discretionary spending item, and most people are more familiar with shopping around for clothing, than they would be about entering ANY NEW hobby interest.
The OP's point(as I read it) is that by having the listed MSRP's so far above the actual retail prices, many potential NEW hobbiests are lost before they ever learn more about the hobby, because of the High PERCIEVED cost of the hobby.
I think the OP has a very valid point,
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Bachmann is the extreme. Most manufacturers have already tightened their pricing structure but they cannot control what hungry dealers dump it for.
BLI is down to 30 to 33 percent dealer profit margin depending upon product and others are already following suit.
This hobby has an image problem and not a pricing structure problem. Parents spend more cash on electronic toys than model trains cost, by far. Most kids dont want to be seen with nerdy old men and unless you blow up the trains like Gomez Adams, we cannot provide the level of action todays highly ADHD generation craves.
PRR8259,
I think the point that the OP, is making isn't the actual price of the trains, but rather the MSRP, is so much higher than the actual street selling price. With the MSRP, so inflated compared to the actual retail price, many POTENTIAL buyers don't look into it enough to realize that there are retailers with prices SIGNIFICANTLY below the MSRP, and potential sales are lost, before they are even considered.
As mentioned, Bachmann is known for MSRP's that are often nearly double, of what the product is actually available for. Those already in the hobby, are often aware of this, but to those not familiar with the hobby, the sticker shock could well discourage them, before they learn enough about the hobby to know better.
PRR8259 Well the manufacturers only delivered what the buyers were demanding. Since it seems many folks lack the time, patience or skills to finish models as was once the case in this hobby, and at least some want highly detailed road specific models with all kinds of sound and lighting features, they gave us exactly what we have asked for. That cannot be done at yesterdays' price point.
Well the manufacturers only delivered what the buyers were demanding. Since it seems many folks lack the time, patience or skills to finish models as was once the case in this hobby, and at least some want highly detailed road specific models with all kinds of sound and lighting features, they gave us exactly what we have asked for. That cannot be done at yesterdays' price point.
I don't believe that is the OP's point at all. He is talking about the vast difference between the list price and the so-called street price, and I think he has a point.
CG
I think that it is a very valid point, and I have wondered the same thing myself many times. BTW, I am 51 years old, and have been in the hobby as long as I can remember.
Also there are tons of good trains on ebay at good prices that just happen to be no longer the latest thing. Many of them are wonderful products.
On black friday millions of Americans will wait in line to buy high priced video games which will be obsolete in less than 2 years. I doubt the price is the problem with this hobby. Maybe it is the idiot schoolteachers who locally teach in first grade that only babies play with trains, as heard by my sons at public schools here in central Pa.
Why do these things almost invariably pop up when the adult supervisors (i.e. moderators) are off doing other things, such as actually enjoying themselves, relaxing and taking a break from this kind of <insert favorite scatological reference here>?
Andre
In my opinion the hobby is cheaper than ever, but that depends on what you want to purchase. I myself like the old school, pre DCC stuff. Stuff like craftsman style car kit, brass steam locomotives and the like. I enjoy the actual "modeling" part of model railroading. To me, RTR stuff while nice, removes the whole actual modeling aspect of the hobby. Where at the completion of a kit of any kind, you can step back and say "I made/built that!" Can't really do that when you take it out of the box and stick it on the layout. When I take one of my fine tuned and painted/weathered brass steamers out to a show to run on a layout, 9 times out of ten it gets more attention, comments from the viewers than the newest from BLI, MTH ect. Because they know that most trains of that vintage do not run quite that well out of the box. Some skills and ablities were expected of the purchaser to make the model operate in top form. At a recent show, I found beautifully painted brass steam for $100. Cant touch most anything steam related that is brand new for that. Craftsman kits for under 10 per car. Prices are down as most of the modelers coming into the hobby are not looking for these items. And the massive drop in prices shows this. So for those that like old school modeling, this is a buyers market and an excellent time to be in the hobby! Happy Hunting! Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Let's see, health care, self funded retirement as defined benefit plans disappear, cable vs rabbit ears, increased college costs, internet service, to name a few. Should have said new, or increased costs way above the inflation rate, and that may have set better with you.
floridaflyer I'm with you Sheldon, on a purely economic level the costs are lower that back in the day. Introduce emotion or the many new cost involved with living today and hobby costs would appear to have increased. We live in a era where the quality and variety of products has never been better, even though is may feel good to espouse the benefits of the good old days.
I'm with you Sheldon, on a purely economic level the costs are lower that back in the day. Introduce emotion or the many new cost involved with living today and hobby costs would appear to have increased. We live in a era where the quality and variety of products has never been better, even though is may feel good to espouse the benefits of the good old days.
trwroute IRONROOSTER I am one of those people with lots of stuff (45 years of being in the hobby will do that). I buy things that interest me. I have a 5'4" x 12' table top where I can set up track and run HO, O, S, Sn2. My main interest is an S scale layout where I'm building phase 1. But it's fun to run an HO 4-4-0 or an O F9 when I want. I long ago acquired everything I need (except track and wiring) that's available for the layout. But this is a hobby so I collect things that interest me. Most of it at a bargain - old kits especially. I don't buy usually used equipment, but I do buy old NIB usually at a good price. But I don't think of any of it as an investment. If my heirs can get some money that's fine, but I don't care. I also keep everything I buy. Enjoy Paul Paul, You and I are kind of the same. I have modeled for 44 years. I have done so many things in Z all the way up to G. I have settled mostly on O narrow gauge and a little HO. I do still have a few others for mostly sentimental reasons. But, when something doesn't meet my needs or wants anymore, I either trade or sell it. I would rather someone have it that will appreciate it more than me. I certainly don't look at trains as an investment. But when I get rid of something, I like to at least break even. Most of the time, I do, and then some. That is just part of the hobby that makes it fun for me. Plus, it keeps my hobby room cleaner and less cluttered. Maybe that is my OCD coming through...
IRONROOSTER I am one of those people with lots of stuff (45 years of being in the hobby will do that). I buy things that interest me. I have a 5'4" x 12' table top where I can set up track and run HO, O, S, Sn2. My main interest is an S scale layout where I'm building phase 1. But it's fun to run an HO 4-4-0 or an O F9 when I want. I long ago acquired everything I need (except track and wiring) that's available for the layout. But this is a hobby so I collect things that interest me. Most of it at a bargain - old kits especially. I don't buy usually used equipment, but I do buy old NIB usually at a good price. But I don't think of any of it as an investment. If my heirs can get some money that's fine, but I don't care. I also keep everything I buy. Enjoy Paul
I am one of those people with lots of stuff (45 years of being in the hobby will do that). I buy things that interest me. I have a 5'4" x 12' table top where I can set up track and run HO, O, S, Sn2. My main interest is an S scale layout where I'm building phase 1. But it's fun to run an HO 4-4-0 or an O F9 when I want.
I long ago acquired everything I need (except track and wiring) that's available for the layout. But this is a hobby so I collect things that interest me. Most of it at a bargain - old kits especially. I don't buy usually used equipment, but I do buy old NIB usually at a good price.
But I don't think of any of it as an investment. If my heirs can get some money that's fine, but I don't care. I also keep everything I buy.
Enjoy
Paul
Chuck, I've been at this for over 40 years too, I have a lot of stuff, and obviously my modeling interests are different because I am in only one scale (not counting the On30 I put around the Christmas tree), and I have maintained the same era/theme/roads modeled for nearly 30 years.
But if you can sell off stuff and break even, more power to you, because generally this stuff is like used cars......
I have never been one to buy somthing, get bored, sell it off. Maybe I see material possessions differently, I think maybe my purchase decissions are more "deliberate", and less emotional than most people.
That is why I have never owned a model of a Big Boy, or many other "famous" trains/locos - They are not a part of the theme of my layout. I see the layout and its theme as the "whole" and the trains as just the pieces needed build it - I only buy pieces I need - only about 6 times in 25 years have bought the wrong pieces......
As for the price thing, I look at lots of model railroad items and say that they cost more than I am willing to pay - that does not make them over priced. It just means they are not a good value for me - examples: DCC, sound, MTH anything, current RTR passenger cars, most brass - new or used. That does not mean they are not a good value for others.
And as a student of history and economics, I understand currency and values on a "non emotional" level. In the "macro" sense, the hobby is way less expensive than years ago. On the micro level, other factors effect each individual, so your mileage may vary...........
Sheldon
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
andrechapelon And you think I DON'T know how it affects my own pocket book now?
And you think I DON'T know how it affects my own pocket book now?
Never said anything about your pocket book. That is none of my business.
andrechapelon By all means, complain to your heart's content. Just don't get your feathers ruffled when you catch Sheldon and me (and a few others) doing this https://quixoteslaststand.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/laughing-men.gif in the backround. Andre
By all means, complain to your heart's content. Just don't get your feathers ruffled when you catch Sheldon and me (and a few others) doing this https://quixoteslaststand.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/laughing-men.gif in the backround.
Let's see. I don't drink, or golf or own a boat. I play trains in the basement. I figure i'm way ahead of the game!
Not to sound mean, but I could ask you the same thing. What does it matter to you that a lot us don't like the high prices? And all of the price comparisons to 50-60 years ago mean nothing to me. I just know how it affects my pocket book now. That is all that matters.
And you think I DON'T know how it affects my own pocket book now? Prices in general are not out of line with what they were, even more so in light of the orders of magnitude improvement in prototype fidelity, running quality and the available of correct variants of different products (example: Athearns SP MT-4 as built in the 20's, modified with skyline casing, variants in main driver and crossheads as well as Daylight paint scheme for certain numbers that actually are correct). Then there's the deep discounting going on. I remember what things were like 50 and more years ago. There were no production variants. You might have been able to buy a Blue Box car for cheap, but by the time you put metal wheels and Kadee couplers on it, it wasn't quite so cheap.
I'm retired. My wife and I live on a more or less fixed income. I don't complain about hobby prices because to do so would be to fly in face of reality and history. I do however, enjoy the complaints of others because it's actually fun to point out the errors of fact. People seem to forget that a major reason that things seem to be so expensive is because there is at least an order of magnitude greater availability of different products than years ago. There's a bigger variety of things to buy with the same amount of money.
I will say this...back when I got my first job at the age of 16 in 1979 at Taco Bell, I could work 2 hours and buy myself a new Kadee N scale car with a little change leftover. Now, you would need to work almost 4 to get that new Micro-Trains car. That is if you are earning minimum wage. Something doesn't seem right to me.
Back in 1966, when I had been in the Air Force for a little over a year, the minimum wage was $1.25/hour ($9.01 adjusted for inflation). A standard work year is 2080 hours. I was making $121.80/month ($1461.60/year). Dividing $1461.60 by 2080 gives just a shade over $0.70/hour, well under minimum wage. By contrast, an E-3 with under 2 years service today makes the equivalent of $10.65/hour. I was making the equivalent of $5.17 in today's currency, so I don't have much use for the minimum wage argument. If you're making minimum wage and not living with mommy and daddy, you really shouldn't be buying trains. I will admit that even at $0.70/hr, things weren't all that bad. We did get 3 hots, a cot, full medical and dental care and a uniform allowance.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL trwroute S SS Express LOL....not as expensive as drag racing for hobby. I last raced my 70 camaro (weekly points) in 2006. The cost just for putting the motor together was unbelievable, and I do all my own assembly and disassembly of engine, trans. and rear. I even do my own body and paint work. Here's a small example of engine alone.... seasoned 396 block.....800.00 crank, rods. pistons......1600.00 cam, lifters, rockers......550.00 heads.............900.00 race fuel.......10.99 gallon and on and on.........you get the picture. Buying a locomotive from a LHS or ebay, much cheaper. Rich I get what you're saying. I'm not into racing, but I have restored cars and I currently have a project Mustang that I'm working on. For some reason, I don't mind spending the bucks on car stuff. Maybe it's because if I go to sell it, I will get good bucks for it. Selling train stuff, you're lucky to break even. I am not one of those modelers or collectors that has stuff just piled everywhere. When I get tired of something, it's gone. Maybe if I kept everything I ever bought, I might think differently about the whole thing. I don't know. Some of us have a different approach. I don't sell anything off - because I only buy what fits a carefully constructed theme for the layout. A theme that has not changed in the last 25 years. But I am that way with everything, I don't buy stuff then get "tired" of it. I only buy stuff I really want. I have never understood that other behavior. And to the other poster who commented on my bargains, I have stuff I bought st only 20% off retail, but my fleet of nearly 140 locos has a dollar cost average of around $120 ea. Sheldon
trwroute S SS Express LOL....not as expensive as drag racing for hobby. I last raced my 70 camaro (weekly points) in 2006. The cost just for putting the motor together was unbelievable, and I do all my own assembly and disassembly of engine, trans. and rear. I even do my own body and paint work. Here's a small example of engine alone.... seasoned 396 block.....800.00 crank, rods. pistons......1600.00 cam, lifters, rockers......550.00 heads.............900.00 race fuel.......10.99 gallon and on and on.........you get the picture. Buying a locomotive from a LHS or ebay, much cheaper. Rich I get what you're saying. I'm not into racing, but I have restored cars and I currently have a project Mustang that I'm working on. For some reason, I don't mind spending the bucks on car stuff. Maybe it's because if I go to sell it, I will get good bucks for it. Selling train stuff, you're lucky to break even. I am not one of those modelers or collectors that has stuff just piled everywhere. When I get tired of something, it's gone. Maybe if I kept everything I ever bought, I might think differently about the whole thing. I don't know.
SS Express LOL....not as expensive as drag racing for hobby. I last raced my 70 camaro (weekly points) in 2006. The cost just for putting the motor together was unbelievable, and I do all my own assembly and disassembly of engine, trans. and rear. I even do my own body and paint work. Here's a small example of engine alone.... seasoned 396 block.....800.00 crank, rods. pistons......1600.00 cam, lifters, rockers......550.00 heads.............900.00 race fuel.......10.99 gallon and on and on.........you get the picture. Buying a locomotive from a LHS or ebay, much cheaper. Rich
LOL....not as expensive as drag racing for hobby. I last raced my 70 camaro (weekly points) in 2006. The cost just for putting the motor together was unbelievable, and I do all my own assembly and disassembly of engine, trans. and rear. I even do my own body and paint work. Here's a small example of engine alone....
seasoned 396 block.....800.00
crank, rods. pistons......1600.00
cam, lifters, rockers......550.00
heads.............900.00
race fuel.......10.99 gallon
and on and on.........you get the picture. Buying a locomotive from a LHS or ebay, much cheaper.
Rich
I get what you're saying. I'm not into racing, but I have restored cars and I currently have a project Mustang that I'm working on. For some reason, I don't mind spending the bucks on car stuff. Maybe it's because if I go to sell it, I will get good bucks for it. Selling train stuff, you're lucky to break even.
I am not one of those modelers or collectors that has stuff just piled everywhere. When I get tired of something, it's gone. Maybe if I kept everything I ever bought, I might think differently about the whole thing. I don't know.
Some of us have a different approach. I don't sell anything off - because I only buy what fits a carefully constructed theme for the layout. A theme that has not changed in the last 25 years.
But I am that way with everything, I don't buy stuff then get "tired" of it. I only buy stuff I really want. I have never understood that other behavior.
And to the other poster who commented on my bargains, I have stuff I bought st only 20% off retail, but my fleet of nearly 140 locos has a dollar cost average of around $120 ea.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL andrechapelon Steven Otte Instead of complaining about high hobby prices, let's make a game out of it. Here's a challenge I just posted to MR's Facebook page: Post something that would make the hobby even MORE expensive, in JUST 3 WORDS. Examples might be: Nickel-platinum track; Z live steam; bought Miniatur Wunderland; or working gold smelter. Your turn! Go! 1950's production technology. Andre Edit and PS: A Varney Super Pacific kit would cost $570. Tender would be extra. Andre, we have explained that about 300 times now, they will never get it. I just picked a Spectrum 2-6-6-2 for $150, a bargain beyond belief, and two Spectrum 2-8-0's for $60 each, all new in the box, yet untouched by North American hands. This hobby is really afordable these days........ Sheldon
andrechapelon Steven Otte Instead of complaining about high hobby prices, let's make a game out of it. Here's a challenge I just posted to MR's Facebook page: Post something that would make the hobby even MORE expensive, in JUST 3 WORDS. Examples might be: Nickel-platinum track; Z live steam; bought Miniatur Wunderland; or working gold smelter. Your turn! Go! 1950's production technology. Andre Edit and PS: A Varney Super Pacific kit would cost $570. Tender would be extra.
Steven Otte Instead of complaining about high hobby prices, let's make a game out of it. Here's a challenge I just posted to MR's Facebook page: Post something that would make the hobby even MORE expensive, in JUST 3 WORDS. Examples might be: Nickel-platinum track; Z live steam; bought Miniatur Wunderland; or working gold smelter. Your turn! Go!
Instead of complaining about high hobby prices, let's make a game out of it. Here's a challenge I just posted to MR's Facebook page: Post something that would make the hobby even MORE expensive, in JUST 3 WORDS. Examples might be: Nickel-platinum track; Z live steam; bought Miniatur Wunderland; or working gold smelter. Your turn! Go!
Andre, we have explained that about 300 times now, they will never get it.
I just picked a Spectrum 2-6-6-2 for $150, a bargain beyond belief, and two Spectrum 2-8-0's for $60 each, all new in the box, yet untouched by North American hands.
This hobby is really afordable these days........
You're preaching to the choir, there, Sheldon.
I'm retired on a more or less fixed income and I can't see the reason for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth. I guess there are people who aren't happy unless they're complaining.
andrechapelon Besides, what good does it do to complain? Andre
Sorry
Joe Staten Island West
Just a guess on my part, but I think you may be well-advised to get that information regarding an insurance claim off here.
Yes the topic gas been beaten to death but I have to say something.
One of the reasons that the hobby is expensive to me is that I had wasted a lot of money on the learning curve. 3 examples:
Waste #1
By not doing suficient research and learning that DCC is the way to go I have a few DC power packs that are not being used now.
Waste #2
Using Bachmann EZ track on my first layout. Not only is flex track or non roadbed track cheaper its more flexible in terms of application and not that much harder to install with cork roadbed. Plus the EZ track turnouts are garbage (by combining Atlas C83 turnouts with caboose industry ground throws I reduced my turnout problems to almost zero.
Waste #3:
Not thinking what I wanted buying too much rolling stock and Locomotives that now I have no use for. Thinking of holding a fire sale lol.
Ah If I only knew then what I know now.
[Edited by admin to remove what looked like accidental copy of a spam e-mail. Be careful when copying and pasting.]
riogrande5761 Yes, you probably saw that discussion on TrainOrders. Honestly the high price topic of the hobby has truly been beaten to death.
Yes, you probably saw that discussion on TrainOrders. Honestly the high price topic of the hobby has truly been beaten to death.
I resisted the idea of adding to a topic that's already loaded with opinions, but what the heck.
Having determined to add my comments, I wasn't sure where.
Since I can readily agree with your statement that this topic is overdone, I figured it was as good a place as any.
Hope you don't mind.
I think we can all agree on one point.The hobby is, or can be, expensive. I think it's also safe to say that the cost of the hobby isn't going to go down.So, the way I figure it is that it comes down to two basic questions.1. Can someone afford it?I used to work with guy who loved trains and wanted to get into model railroading. I worked part-time in a hardware store while at college. He worked full time and had a house to pay for, a wife and two kids.He looked into the cost of getting started and soon realized it was out-of-reach.As he put it, he didn't make a great deal of money and by the time he'd paid for the necessities, he just didn't have the discretinary income.It was unfortunate, but I give him credit for having his priorties straight.2. Is an item worth it?This is far more subjective.I'm not talking about whether you can afford it. I mean do you think a particular item is worth what's being asked.Many times, I've seen something in a store, not necessarily a hobby store, and thought, "That looks nice."Then, I check the price and think, "Are they crazy?".I could buy it. But I'm not going to at the price they're asking.I'm not sure that there's any point in conductiong a study to determine whether or not the cost of the hobby has gone up in proportion to everything else.It's gone up what it has, and that's it.Ultimately, I'd say the only question that really matters is whether or not your current financial state allows you to get into the hobby or continue to accumulate items you want.The question as to whether or not any item is worth the cost to you personally is something you'll have to ask yourself.
It really is amazing how expensive it has gotten. Far exceeding inflation. I was very in-tune to the prices back in the late 80s early 90s because I was an art director at Walters. And worked on the catalogs and designed ads, brochures, etc. and I still do freelance work for them. but I just got back into the hobby and now that i'm spending money on it again, I wonder how anyone can afford it... especially new and younger modelers. If this hobby is to stay alive, prices need to start coming down. That said, I am impressed at how people are finding creative, alternative ways to model without spending a lot.
Working A/C in passenger cars.
Odor "decodors" in all locomotives. And stock cars.
Decoder activated couplers on all rolling stock.
rrebell Now back to topic on hand, hobby is cheap, no really. When I finish my layout I will about break even, e-bay is my freind!
Now back to topic on hand, hobby is cheap, no really. When I finish my layout I will about break even, e-bay is my freind!
Sounds smart to me. Effort equals reward.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."