Here we are on the umpteenth topic about the high cost of model railroading and now we've added eating dirt to it. Always a new twist to the very tired old discussion. The MR staff made a special topic for people to complain in; maybe it's time to revive it as this seems to never die.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Hi,
I didn't read all the earlier posts so I may be repetitive here........
Several years ago the major auto mfgs got away from the multi option "check off list" and opted to go for "packages" and such. This obviously reduced the complexity of the manufacturing process and related costs. That said, those savings were surely not fully passed along to the buyer.
The model loco sound modules & speakers and such are certainly more costly than just the motor/light operating decoders that come with non sound locos. And if the companies decided to put sound in every loco they produce, it is likely that the cost to the consumer would drop - a bit.
But what about the guy that doesn't want sound? He will suddenly find himself paying for it - basically subsidizing the folks that want sound. Yup, that scenario is a common practice these days, but certainly not fair.
Like it or not, MR is a rather expensive hobby as it is. To insure the future of the hobby, and to not scare away potential MRs, "entry level" equipment at "entry level" pricing is what is needed.
I recall my entry into HO in the early '60s, and the manufacturers that produced quality basic equipment that allowed me to afford the hobby. Athearn stands out as THE manufacturer of affordable cars and locos. Atlas was the go to for trackage. MRC produced the power packs that were affordable and indestructible. And of course Kalmbach and Carstens were there with monthly mags that guided me along the way.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
And again, no one here is arguing that costs have not risen.
What is being pointed out time and time again is that model railroading prices have gone way up in the same time frame when other "collectible" wants not needs have not.
So either a large proportion of the hobby has died off(believeable) or someone is using Econ. 101 and raising the prices on us.
Never thought I'd see a day where the choice was honestly between brass/hybrid or plastic passenger car.....................Now which one has way more labor involved?
Also the longer something is made the more the costs are amortized until the only expense maybe mold upkeep and repair. So profit derived from said product increases during its span of other things remain constant.
Or will they make us eat more dirt?
Retail your talking a $40 difference.
Discuss.
This thread has now gone where all threads complaining about high prices go.
A moment of silence, please.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Steven Otte This thread has now gone where all threads complaining about high prices go. A moment of silence, please.
Bless you, Steven the long suffering!
ATLANTIC CENTRALAs a percentage, I suspect they make exactly ther same amount on both.........
The larger discounts available in some cases on sound locos suggest that may not be true. However, assuming the same profit is built into the price, n% of $200 is twice as large as n% of $100.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Talking of sound!
Hello darkness my old friend, I've come to talk with you again...
The economies of scale argument does not translate to model trains because the production runs are all too small.
At least one manufacturer I know pretty much admits they can make more profit, or at least the overall numbers are better, with full featured models that have all the sound and lighting effects. At the same time profit on plastic freight cars is, for them, dwindling.
John
hon30critter Hi Ulrich, Yes, the OP's question has brought out some fairly strong opinions on DCC and sound with regard to costs. However, I have to disagree with your implication that the discussion is not worthwhile. I think the OP asked a very straight forward question "would costs go down if...." and I think that it is an interesting question. As I stated, I am totally opposed to the concept, but the OP's question is no different than if he was asking "would costs go down if all manufacturers used the same motor...". (OK, that is probably a lame example). What the OP has hopefully learned is that his question cannot be answered simply. There are too many different opinions and desires. That's OK. Hopefully the OP has a better understanding of the implications of all manufacturers offering sound only locomotives if that were to actually happen. My point is that we should not try to stifle discussion on the forums, especially when it is a newer member asking the question. The forums are here precisely to allow us to discuss model railroad topics and we have all said that more participation in both the forums and the hobby is a good thing. So what if the manufacturers aren't listening to every post? I am (almost). You are likely reading most threads too, and we would both be disappointed if Kalmbach told us to keep our opinions to ourselves. No offense Ulrich! It's always good to hear your opinions. Regards, Dave
Hi Ulrich,
Yes, the OP's question has brought out some fairly strong opinions on DCC and sound with regard to costs. However, I have to disagree with your implication that the discussion is not worthwhile. I think the OP asked a very straight forward question "would costs go down if...." and I think that it is an interesting question. As I stated, I am totally opposed to the concept, but the OP's question is no different than if he was asking "would costs go down if all manufacturers used the same motor...". (OK, that is probably a lame example). What the OP has hopefully learned is that his question cannot be answered simply. There are too many different opinions and desires. That's OK. Hopefully the OP has a better understanding of the implications of all manufacturers offering sound only locomotives if that were to actually happen.
My point is that we should not try to stifle discussion on the forums, especially when it is a newer member asking the question. The forums are here precisely to allow us to discuss model railroad topics and we have all said that more participation in both the forums and the hobby is a good thing. So what if the manufacturers aren't listening to every post? I am (almost). You are likely reading most threads too, and we would both be disappointed if Kalmbach told us to keep our opinions to ourselves.
No offense Ulrich! It's always good to hear your opinions.
Regards,
Dave
Let me start by thanking you for taking the time to read my OP and for recognizing the intent of the question.
This is a question of economics, not a question about whether or not you think it's a good idea. That's going to start a firestorm of opinions. That may or may not be a worthwhile topic, but if someone wants to do that, it could be best handled in a seperate post.
The comparison to a cable harness in a car wasn't meant to be taken literally. The point I was trying to make is that there are always economic and marketing factors that will lead manufacturers to standarize their product lines, or not.
There have been a number of people who've responded with comments about being forced to pay for something they don't want.
If the Atlas units I mentioned are an indication that manufacturers are moving in that direction and you object, then I respectfully suggest that you direct your comments to them.
Perhaps if they hear from enough of you who don't want to have to choose between no decoder and sound, they'll listen.
PRR8259 The economies of scale argument does not translate to model trains because the production runs are all too small. At least one manufacturer I know pretty much admits they can make more profit, or at least the overall numbers are better, with full featured models that have all the sound and lighting effects. At the same time profit on plastic freight cars is, for them, dwindling. John
This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to promote.
A well thought-out comment discussing the economics of the question.
Thank you
I'm going to clarify a few things.
I am not against sound, in fact I love it. Same goes for DCC now that I am using it.
But watching the prices of the same engine with QSI or Tsunami sound jump like $70 going from 2007-2008 magazine to current prices is disconcerting. Then you see stupid things like Tsunami discontinued and Econami come in. So we can't get more decoders but the manufacturers can and still use them even if parts are unavailable??? Something seems fishy. Yet we don't know what the top line new decoder will be?
I do shop deals/sales/used/ebay to find things for the older boy and I to use.(also not spend a fortune due to 3 yr old waiting in the wings to play with us as well) I put sound in my own stuff where possible.
I am not against dropping money when I feel worth it like the ScaleTrains Big Blow. My odds of ever seeing a non brass version again are next to none lol.
I honestly feel with current pricing structure going on that it will push new folks away. You have to hunt for freight cars under $20 anymore. I bought the Mainline passenger cars on sale because he wanted a passenger train(so did I), but say $170 seems a lot more palatable than $490 for Proto passenger cars if we are talking 7 at a time.
In the near-decade since 08-09, the world of MRR manufacturing is a very different place. The Chinese factories had lots of cheap labor and production hours to fill. There was more production capacity available. All those factors have changed, resulting in increased costs to US importers and consumers.
While the Econami is cheaper than the last production versions of the Tsunami, it also represents a significant investement by Soundtraxx. The new form-factors for it anticipate those for the next-gen "Tsunami" as does that investment. Someone else has already mentioned that the economies of scale just don't work for our hobby like they do with most consumer products, as the example of the auto wiring harness seemed to imply.
The net result is that there won't be falling prices for new products. There will remain lots of pressure to at least hold the line on prices, but that's uncertain.
Not to beat that dead horse, but cheaper product will not result in a flood of new model railroaders. Most on a budget manage to meet their needs by shopping wisely. If you really need something, it generally is available at a cost that most can manage, at least in comparison to many hobbies. Used equipment and auction-site purchases can make a big difference.
What a "palatable price" is depends more on consumer perceptions. The asking price tends to track actual costs, which show up in the market long before modelers adjust their price/value expectations. That gap explains why you see things as too expensive, even though the cost of individual items is generally affordable. Want to build an empire or add extra features like sound? That always costs money. And that's probably good, if you're hoping that people will still invest in producing goods for this relatively small market.
mlehman ATLANTIC CENTRAL As a percentage, I suspect they make exactly ther same amount on both......... The larger discounts available in some cases on sound locos suggest that may not be true. However, assuming the same profit is built into the price, n% of $200 is twice as large as n% of $100.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL As a percentage, I suspect they make exactly ther same amount on both.........
But Mike, that assumes you are selling just as many units , and it also assumes the sales of non sound units would not be lost if that product was not available.
In keeping with the original topic of this thread, it might be the 40% of DCC ready sales that keep volumes high enough to kep prices where they are.........
Don't we get a fair amount of price complaining as it is.......?
As for discount prices, most, if not all of that comes out of the dealers part of the markup. And again, the wholesale discounts are the same percentage for all the products.
It is a known fact in retail that as item price goes up, some retailers, especially larger ones, are willing to take a smaller margin, not as much so on the production side, where the standard margin is already smaller.
If the DC, non sound and/or install your own decoder market was not strong, they would not be out there.
Sheldon
Prices are going up-get over it. Been to a grocery store lately?
DAVID FORTNEY Prices are going up-get over it. Been to a grocery store lately?
David, if you had been around here as long as me, or some others who have been on here even longer, you would know I never complain about prices, in fact I comment in all such threads that adjusted for inflation the hobby is no more expensive than it ever was - it may even be less expensive.
But that never stops some others from complaining and threads about the hobby being too expenisive are fairly regular over the years.
As pointed out by several others, model trains will likely never benefit from the economy of scale found in many other consumer goods, so the the answer to the OP's question is no.
But, the manufacturers are doing their best to gauge the market and meet its demands as effectively as possible.
Offering DCC/sound and DCC ready versions seems to be the best route at present.
Those who like sound and/or use DCC seem think everyone should, yet by all accounts, they still represent only about 50-60% of those who buy model trains.
And as usual it is PC for them to think all the products should be geared to them, but wrong for me to think the products should be geared to my needs and wants.
PC really has nothing to do with it, Sheldon, just cold business calculation. I just ordered an Athearn SP MT-4 with DCC and sound from MB Klein. These engines apparently just arrived as I got an email from Factory Direct Trains listing the engines as just arrived. It's a reasonable assumption that the same is true for MB Klein. The reason I got mine from Klein is that they were $35 cheaper than FDT.
Judging from the inventory data available at Klein's site, it appears to me that they ordered DCC/sound equipped MT-4's at a 3 to 1 ratio over the DC versions. No business in its right mind is going to order at that ratio unless they're convinced they'll sell more of the more "feature rich" items.
I could have actually gotten one of the MT-4's a bit cheaper as there are still some of the previous run available. However, these were fitted with the 120C-6 tender. I was holding out for the 160C-3 tender (along with the engine being equipped with disc main drivers and multiple bearing crossheads).
And just to annoy people, the inflation adjusted price of the DCC/sound Athearn model from Klein vs. a Balboa brass MT-4 of 50 years ago represents a nearly 28% discount over the brass price. The DC version, inflation adjusted, is being sold at a 45% discount.
Andre
Andre,
I agree with you. Maybe DCC/sound sales are 3 to 1, or 2 to 1, over DCC Ready/DC, maybe even 4 to 1? I'm not questioning that.
The question is would they sell as many total units if they did not offer the DC/DCC ready version? Even if it is 4 to 1, what manufacturer is going to give up 20% of their volume? I do believe it is 20% that MTH and Broadway have missed......
And if not, would that lower volume drive prices up more rather than lower prices because of streamlined production?
I do think DCC with sound is SLOWLY taking over the market, but all evidence suggests that any "final" change to a "universal" DCC market place has slowed. However small, the direct radio products have slowed "DCC conversion" even more.
And companies like BLI and MTH have gotten very little of my money in the last 5-10 years by not offering DCC ready, or at least non sound DCC versions of their products. My loco purchases in the last 5 years are easily in the 4 figures......
But I just bought three more Bachmann locos and two more Proto2000 locos last month. Those Bachmann basic DCC decoders pop right out, and the jumper plugs pop right in - the decoders sell well on Ebay......
If I did ever go DCC, I would still skip sound.........
No doubt many of those buying lots of new locos like DCC and sound, but many also complain about this sound decoder, or that, and so on.
And, the secondary market for model trains is without question bigger, and stronger than it ever has been in the history of the hobby - a direct result of Ebay and other internet selling platforms.
That fact has a big effect on the whole market - DCC or DC, but likely steals more DC/DCC ready sales from "new" products than it does DCC/sound sales.
I'm always up for "new old stock" Bachmann and Proto2000 non DCC stuff. But the lack of DC offerings from some manufacturers is a self fullfilling prophecy as well.
I don't generally buy stuff "already been played with", on the secondary market I'm almost exclusively a NOS guy.
So by not offering DC products, they are sending me in search of that NOS stuff.......
Also, when new stuff is released in both formats, it seems that the DC versions sell out faster, less show up on Ebay, they are harder to find - maybe the manufaturers are under estimating that market? Same is true for undecorated models - I never see undecorated stuff on the clearance sales...........
But what do I know, I'm just a hick with 135 little train locos without brains......
andrechapelon And just to annoy people, the inflation adjusted price of the DCC/sound Athearn model from Klein vs. a Balboa brass MT-4 of 50 years ago represents a nearly 28% discount over the brass price. The DC version, inflation adjusted, is being sold at a 45% discount. Andre
So if you are happy with DC and no sound, the hobby only costs about half what it did back then.
If you want sound you have to pay a little more.
You and I have told them all this before - the hobby has never been this affordable.........
I'm surely not complaining about the new in the box Spectrum 2-6-6-2 I just bought for $150 - it was a deal.
John,BLI doesn't "force" you to do anything. You can choose to buy their product or not. Just like every other manufacturer.
When I was a kid, I also was more interested in video games (Intellivision then NES...woohoo!). But trains were there because my father is a model railroader; we always had trains in the basement. So don't be dismayed just yet.
WRT sound accuracy. For one thing, you just cannot get 100% authentic steam sound out of a 1" speaker. Secondly, good clean steam sound recordings are not exactly plentiful for long-ago scrapped locos. I can tell you that the bell on the BLI I-4 is very accurate. I rang it. My club has a NH I-4 brass bell, and the sound from it was sent on to BLI who included it on the model. I rang both my model bell and the real bell at the club, and they sounded darn close to me. Also, the BLI I-5 model sampled the only known live recording of a NH I-5 whistle from the WWII-era PR film, "A Great Railroad At Work". As for the rest of the sounds, they're pretty generic. But who can say that NH I-4's and I-5's didn't sound that way? The last ones were scrapped in 1950-52. Anyone who was an adult who remembers hearing them would have to be 82 years old or more.
The idea that late model brass doesn't have extra features you might not want is rather an odd one. I've seen opening sand hatches, working water fill hatches, sliding roof hatches, smokebox doors that swing open, equalized tender trucks, the coasting drive (w/ clutch), light-up gauges in the cab, Code 88 wheels, front dummy couplers (especially on switchers), working class lights, etc. Brass had and continues to have a lot of extra features that do not add as much to operations as sound does.If I may, I would suggest slightly older brass. Much can be had for reasonable prices, and most run just as well as modern brass with a little tweaking. And when I say reasonable, when some modern non-articulated brass locos go for $2000 these days, a $500 loco that's 20 years old would be a much better buy, IMHO.
Paul A. Cutler III
Hi Sheldon--
Just wanted to make one economic comment regarding what you said a couple posts above:
The dealer discount is not the same on all products from a manufacturer. BLI, for one, actually reduces the profit margin to their dealers on the higher end products. This is not going over well with the dealers, as they feel they are being cheated, but they have to make the best of it.
Additionally, Walthers apparently now also has a "sliding" discount system, so I am told, meaning on the bigger ticket items they also shorten the dealer discount.
PRR8259 Hi Sheldon-- Just wanted to make one economic comment regarding what you said a couple posts above: The dealer discount is not the same on all products from a manufacturer. BLI, for one, actually reduces the profit margin to their dealers on the higher end products. This is not going over well with the dealers, as they feel they are being cheated, but they have to make the best of it. Additionally, Walthers apparently now also has a "sliding" discount system, so I am told, meaning on the bigger ticket items they also shorten the dealer discount. John
John,
I am aware that a few manufacturers have started doing that, but that is a relatively recent developement in this industry. Years ago I managed a train department in a full line hobby shop and I still know a number of shop owners personally.
So that potentially gives less expensive DCC ready/DC locos a better profit percentage in some cases.........
Discounting is still a function of the dealer, having little to do with manufacturer markups or profits.
Well, maybe it's different where you live. However, the particular dealers I frequent, one of whom I worked for years ago, are pretty strict on their price structure, so they literally say "the manufacturer has reduced our discount (or markup) on this item, so we are forced to do the same for you, sorry".
As a former employee/very good customer who spends a lot per year, on a big ticket item, I generally get half off of whatever the markup would be.
So the importers in some cases are "holding the line" on prices by forcing dealers to accept less margin to work with...
This one's going to the good old "Designated 'The Hobby Is Too Expensive' Thread" too... wave goodbye, fellas...
I was reading some of the comments about sound vs no sound and the difference in the cost.
I wonder if the manufacturers could take a cue from auto companies and save costs by making it a standard feature.
Many years ago, I was looking under the hood of someone's car and noticed a cable with unused plugs.
When I asked about they explained that, depending on the options on any particular vehicle, the plugs may or may not be used. It was a lot cheaper to make one cable that does everything than custom design a cable for each combination available.
Maybe it wouldn't make sense, but if manufacturers just made sound a standard feature on all models they'd have lower production costs.
If you don't like sound, mute it.
Another benefit would be that if you decide to sell the model, you'll have a better market because some modelers wouldn't buy it without sound.
I don't have access to the cost information, but if anyone does it'd be interesting to hear.
bnsf1If you don't like sound, mute it.
Again,you want people to buy something they don't want or maybe they prefer to choose their favorite brand of sound decoder?
Seems the manufacturers understands this and found its best to produce locomotives both ways so the market is covered. That's why we don't have DCC equipped only engines.
I don't see that changing any time soon.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Would putting sound in every loco reduce the unit cost of each sound installation, yes, Would that result in lower costs to the consumer, no. Now the profit margin would increase for the manufacturer, and the non-sound consumer would now have to pay an increased cost for a loco with sound. I'm with BRAKIE, the manufacturers current formula for DCC, sound and DC seems to be effective.
Steven Otte This one's going to the good old "Designated 'The Hobby Is Too Expensive' Thread" too... wave goodbye, fellas...
rrebell Always wanting to close down a long thread, no one is being nasty here. These types of threads are great when you come here all the time and at times, find nothing new or a rehash of old topics by new ones to the forum. Forum traffic is way off as it is if you count real participation.
Always wanting to close down a long thread, no one is being nasty here. These types of threads are great when you come here all the time and at times, find nothing new or a rehash of old topics by new ones to the forum. Forum traffic is way off as it is if you count real participation.
This thread wasn't "closed down," it was merged with another thread. And I didn't do so because of the length of the thread or because anybody was being "nasty." I merged the threads because we don't need multiple threads rehashing the same topic of "the hobby is too expensive." If you're talking about coming here all the time and seeing nothing new or just a rehash of old topics, well, this topic is the perfect example of that. Combining these repetitive threads makes more room on the first page of the Forum for threads on different topics, and just maybe shows new members that this topic has already been done to death.