Sheldon,
What is the old saying, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't always make them drink. No matter how much sense we try to bring to the table, some will just never be convinced or will still be unhappy. At some point, our foreheads get flat enough from banging them against a stone wall.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Respectfully, I will try one last time to make my point.
Having actually designed a few products, manufactured them, and taken them to market, I think I have at least some understanding of this - and, I did work in this model train industry at one time.
Today's manufacturers are at the mercy of their factory partners in China. We don't know for sure what the profit margins at the source are, but we do see in the news the various ecconomic and social growing pains China is going through. Enough to suggest that the cost of operating a model train factory has likely increased a great deal since the late 80's or even the mid 90's when most of the US model train industry left town for China.
That said, I know first hand from several of the small manufacturers and a number of retailers that the margins they are working on are not high or excessive.
I will not divulge any specifics of such information, like what each model costs "off the boat", as such was told to me in confidence.
But even if the "big boys" are getting their product done for 20% less than the small manufacturers I have info on, They are not overcharging based on their "cost to produce"
If it costs you $10 to make a product, before your overhead costs, it is generally likely that $50 is a fair market "street" price.
If it cost ATHEARN $.60 to make a box car kit back in 1978 when they sold them for $3, then it is very likely that it costs them $5 or $6 today, and they sell them for how much? $25 to $30
If you can't make enough profit, than you might as well go out of business before you produce a bunch of product that just sits on the shelf?
It is very unlikely that there is much "profiteering" in model trains, simply because if one guy can make it cheaper, then someone else can as well. And the second guy is likely to lower his price to the near minimum return on investment level and undercut the prices of the guy who is trying to make windfall profits.
Yet we see prices that are reasonably uniform from brand to brand.
Even the biggest player from a manufacturing stand point, Bachmann, has consistantly raised prices over the last several years. Since they control a major percentage of the production capacity in China, it would seem if anyone could keep prices lower to increase volume and grab market share, it would be them. But it is not happening.
A clear sign that production costs truly are up, and possibly that sales are down, not just because of high prices, but because of shifts is demographics, more diverse interests within the hobby, etc.
Can the product be made for less money - good question - but I doubt it.
One big problem is the continuing diversifcation of hobby. More different potential products to make for ever smaller groups of specialized modelers.
And now, with some balking at the higher prices of higher detail models, if manufacturers are forced to make a high detail version for $40 and a low detail version for $20, the volume of production for each version gets smaller, driving costs ever higher.
To reduce costs we would need to see larger runs of identical product - product there is not likely an immediate market for, especially since only a few big retailers now keep any real depth of inventory.
Now if someone had deep enough pockets to make tons of stuff at the lowest possible cost of production, and would then sell it via direct distribution only to all dealers at the same price level. And be willing to hold those prices, and "wait" for the next "cycle of demand" for that product, we might see some relief in both price levels and spotty availablity. But that guys acountant is going to tell him he is nuts to leave that money tied up like that - Irv Athearn and Bruce Walthers were just that kind of nuts.
One more point - why are MTH and BLI constantly comming out with same models, or models others already have - like the MTH C&O 2-6-6-6? Are they really that stupid? All they are doing is dividing up an ever shrinking demand rather than looking for new untapped markets.
But what do I know - I'm just a hick with a pickup, some guns, and bunch of little trains without brains.
Sheldon
PS - Steven, is this "on topic" enough, and far enough away from the politics of the issue?
trwrouteThe Athearn RTR stuff is just fixed up BB (for the most part) and they could easily charge roughly what the BB items cost if they wouldn't add any detail parts.
Just fixed up BB stuff? Thats putting it mildly.
Here is an example - the Athearn blue box SD40T-2 was fixed up to the point it looks like brass models of not long ago - newly tooled roof fans, improved tunnel motor grill, see through tunnel motor intake grills, correct snow plow, coupler lift bars, roof antennae, MU hoses, separately applied grab irons all around, correct size fuel tank, retooled cab, MU tray on rear pilot. The SP SD40T-2's have even more detail are really are Genesis models in appearance.
Athearn took the old (similar to blue box) MDC Thrall gons and Ortner 5-bay Rapid Discharge hoppers and upgraded them - now they have newly tooled details and separately applied grab irons and look quite nice - not Tangent models by any means but quite nice. There are some other Athearn RTR cars which are quite nice, like some of the covered hoppers, 62' mill gons etc.
Of course, some of Athearns blue box models have only minor improvements and nice paint jobs, like the CF4740 covered hopper and some of the older box cars.
As far as all the hand wringing and complaining here - personally I don't see it accomplishing anything that will affect the hobby or industry in any measurable or significant way; all thats really going to be accomplished is for people to vent and express their unhappiness with aspects of the hobby - mostly not really a healthy thing unless venting reduces your blood pressure or makes you feel good in some way, but OTOH, it may be raising others BP and/or making them feel more discouraged and hopeless. At least it's being contained in one place - good move by the MR staff.
Maxman,
" ...someone will go out of business if their products are not purchased, well, sorry to say this but that's the way it is. They will either need to adjust their costs to be in line with what someone is willing to pay, develop a less expensive product, or go out of business. "
Thats one thing i was trying to avoid. Id hate to see some of our better makers go out. Though i used them as an example in my last post, but I would truely hate to see Athearn go out of business. Your totally right, if this keeps up, someone is gonna loose.
Right now, it's those who are not able to afford them, or choose not to. Eventually, it will be the company. Like you said, thats the way it is. Id like to "bail out" our makers now, before they actually need one.
There has to be a way. I dont like boycotting Athearn. And that is not an example.
PM Railfan
PM Railfan I am not trying to blame anyone here. Instead, i think the term that applies here is "responsible for". I am not trying to do the point the finger thing by soliciting blame. That will get this thread expelled quickly. PM Railfan
I am not trying to blame anyone here. Instead, i think the term that applies here is "responsible for". I am not trying to do the point the finger thing by soliciting blame. That will get this thread expelled quickly.
However you want to define it, the bottom line as I see it is that it is a simple matter of supply and demand. Some one (or some ones) sets the price. So long as there are enough individuals who are willing to pay the price, the producers will continue to produce.
Now to address your previous post where you have a concern that someone will go out of business if their products are not purchased, well, sorry to say this but that's the way it is. They will either need to adjust their costs to be in line with what someone is willing to pay, develop a less expensive product, or go out of business. And if they go out of business maybe someone else will step up to the bar and produce items at a price level with which you are comfortable.
Its the manufacturers, dealers, middle men, who ever etc etc, that set the prices, not the enablers. I kinda see it as a symbiotic thing that just doesnt need to exist in this hobby. Because without the enablers, the aforementioned folks wouldnt be seeing that they could do this, and actually get the $$$.
And i cant see there being that many of us that think things are high, that product would languish on the shelves. Thats now, but growing. How about ten years from now when new locos jump another $100..... $200? Who is gonna be willing to shell out $500 for a single, new, HO diesel loco?
And if things are languishing... that means someones gonna go out of business. One of those manufacturers, dealers, middle men etc etc. That too is out of the question. That exactly is what NO ONE wants. No matter what side of the fence your on in this discussion.
Just as a "what if", think IF it actually happened that Athearn went out of business because we simply 'didnt buy from them' because of high prices?
I am aware, for such a simple question i pose, the answer would be complicated. I know the makers need food on their table. Well so do we. If it comes down to my diner or theirs, looks like i just dont buy. Again, thats been covered. And covered, AND covered. It still doesnt solve the problem because i didnt get a model, and the maker didnt get food on their table.
There has to be a way, a simple way to put food on both tables, and trains in our hands.... at the same time. For a hobby that claims to be so innovative, i figured the collective modellers here, would be able to 'kitbash' a working answer. Something positive.
So far, i havent heard anything in that direction. I just dont want to have to buy on the cheap. I dont want to have to not buy from those who provide alot in this hobby. I would like to find an answer to this.
maxman PM Railfan More like.... how do the 'many' (modellers who think the prices are high) get manufacturers to drop their prices. That would be correct. Now that the question has been better established, the answer seems to be if you don't like the price of something, don't buy it. If all the "yous" got together and as a group decided not to buy something, those products would languish on the shelves and would eventually no longer be offered. I am having difficulty understanding why you want to blame the manufacturers for the price levels. You should be blaming the enablers, those who are willing to pay those prices and therefore encouraging the manufacturers to keep doing what they are doing.
PM Railfan More like.... how do the 'many' (modellers who think the prices are high) get manufacturers to drop their prices. That would be correct.
Now that the question has been better established, the answer seems to be if you don't like the price of something, don't buy it. If all the "yous" got together and as a group decided not to buy something, those products would languish on the shelves and would eventually no longer be offered.
I am having difficulty understanding why you want to blame the manufacturers for the price levels. You should be blaming the enablers, those who are willing to pay those prices and therefore encouraging the manufacturers to keep doing what they are doing.
Exquisitely precisely. That is the logic. A market is driven by custom. The customer presents the demand and the supplier cashes in as long as the demand is there. This hobby is no different; the various businesses have to provide livings for their members and owners, but won't be able to do that providing items that don't have sufficient appeal to prospective buyers. Those wanting to blame someone for their marginalization should really be targetting the people who provide the custom...the market. Those who feel they are hard done-by ought to tell the market they're all screwed up and should change their interests to something more like their own.
I predict it will be a highly popular appeal.
PM RailfanMore like.... how do the 'many' (modellers who think the prices are high) get manufacturers to drop their prices. That would be correct.
maxman So, your question then, is how does one personally get manufacturers to drop their prices. Is that correct?
So, your question then, is how does one personally get manufacturers to drop their prices. Is that correct?
Hey there Maxman!
More like.... how do the 'many' (modellers who think the prices are high) get manufacturers to drop their prices. That would be correct.
And I say many because 'one' would hardly get noticed. 'One' isnt the number of folks who do think the prices are high. We already know how to model on the cheap. We already know if we dont like the prices, dont buy. Thats the simple easy way out. It does nothing to change the prices, or bring any allure back to the hobby. And like any other problem in life, if left alone, it will fester and become worse.
Anyone here can take a total of the users who have responded, some are ok with the prices, some dont care, and the rest think the prices are too high. In any case, the number is more than 'one'.
I have on good suspicion this thread was allowed for positive results to be discussed. Not so much what has been going on here. I am trying to make a simple request....
What, for those that believe prices are too high, can be done about it?
PM RailfanStill looking for suggestions (good, valid ones!) that havent been mentioned yet. These have been beaten to death - to wit: how to model on the cheap, how and where to buy for less, etc etc. Neither of which drops the prices to where they should be.
Just checking back in..... are we all done now discussing the "way back whens", and the "many different inflation calcs" we can use, and focus on the original problem of how to reduce the high prices?
Still looking for suggestions (good, valid ones!) that havent been mentioned yet. These have been beaten to death - to wit: how to model on the cheap, how and where to buy for less, etc etc. Neither of which drops the prices to where they should be.
I will check back again, if the thread doesnt get yanked for all the off topic irrelevence and bantering. I see Cousing Vinnie has been here!
jecorbett ... I envisioned myself spending 8 hour days in the train room but I quickly discovered that can be mentally fatiguing. Also, even in retirement, there are plenty of other things that I either want to do or have to do that occupy my time. Model railroading is still just a part time hobby and just for part of the year, the cold weather months. ...
...
I envisioned myself spending 8 hour days in the train room but I quickly discovered that can be mentally fatiguing. Also, even in retirement, there are plenty of other things that I either want to do or have to do that occupy my time. Model railroading is still just a part time hobby and just for part of the year, the cold weather months.
Yes, that was my plan also.
I'm lucky to spend 8 hours a week.
Oh well, it's a hobby, not a job.
Enjoy
Paul
Bayfield Transfer Railway The popularity of ready-to-run I suspect is directly related to the fact that a lot of layouts are much bigger than they used to be.
The popularity of ready-to-run I suspect is directly related to the fact that a lot of layouts are much bigger than they used to be.
I think the advent of wireless walkaround throttles facilitated that. I know plug in walk around throttles have been around for a long time but wireless has made walk around layouts much more appealing. In the old days when you were tethered to your power station, there was a practical limit to how big your layout could be. More typical was a layout with an operating pit from which you could reach all parts of the layout.
I know a fair number of modelers who have taken early retirement and built a "dream basement" with a house over it, and for the most part thier layouts are larger than most club layouts of 40 years ago.
That would be me. I retired in 2001 after building a house with a rectangular 28X48 foot basement to accomodate a large walkaround layout. The stairs and mechanicals were positioned not to interfer with the layout design. I never dreamed that 14 years later I'd still be building the layout. The mainline was completed several years ago but I am just now starting the large branchline which will run along both sides of a long center peninsula. I envisioned myself spending 8 hour days in the train room but I quickly discovered that can be mentally fatiguing. Also, even in retirement, there are plenty of other things that I either want to do or have to do that occupy my time. Model railroading is still just a part time hobby and just for part of the year, the cold weather months.
If you're going to build a 2000 or 3000 square foot layout, you have chosen not to spend a lot of time on each individual piece of rolling stock. And layouts that size aren't really all that rare. Layouts have gotten huge. People only have so much time. RTR equipment has been a huge boon for those of us who love operations as the best part of the hobby.
And layouts that size aren't really all that rare. Layouts have gotten huge. People only have so much time.
RTR equipment has been a huge boon for those of us who love operations as the best part of the hobby.
You and I think along the same lines. My time is more valuable than my money but I don't have an unlimited amount of either so I have to balance the two. There are parts of layout building I enjoy such as scenery but for the most part it is a means to an end. I want to run trains through a fully scenicked layout and the sooner the better. I have only recently begun full blown operations on the mainline and the planned branchline is now just a dummy interchange. I hope to have the branchline up and running within a year. It will be a mix of prebuilt and kit built structures with a few craftsman kits as show pieces. I already have all the locos and rolling stock my layout can accomodate but I have about two dozen Accurails kits sitting on the shelf. I can throw those together with KD couplers and metal wheels added in about 10 minutes so they are almost as good as RTR. I would guess about a third of my rolling stock is RTR with KD couplers added. Also, I've bought a lot of used equipment so only about half my roster is kit built cars.
trwrouteThe Athearn RTR stuff is just fixed up BB (for the most part) and they could easily charge roughly what the BB items cost if they wouldn't add any detail parts. Then the modeler could add what was wanted or needed. The added benefit would be the detail parts manufacturers could stay in business. Instead, a lot of details are simply no longer available.
Don't forget the souped up ex-Roundhouse cars and Rail Power shells they use..All have detail errors according to the detail Gurus on various forms.. The various QA/QC issues you may get depends on the roll of the QA/QC dice.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I guess you haven't looked for Detail Associates eyebolts, a Cannon switcher cab, etc. They are tough to find and the eyebolts are available every so often. Try finding any Sunrise parts for N scale diesels? They went under and so did JnJ with their detail parts. N scale is sorely lacking in the detail department. Don't get me started with the massive price increase for DA parts. The newer packages have less and the price is close to three times more.
No, I haven't. The last diesel I bought was a Bowser SP Baldwin AS-616 three years ago. That's an engine you couldn't get except in brass not all that long ago. It's pretty well detailed and I don't see any compelling reason to try and gild the lily.
Just like you don't do steam, I don't do N scale. I'm sorry that JnJ and Sunrise went under. From what I can discover, Sunrise quit due to health problems of the owner. As for JnJ, I have no idea why. That's always a risk with mom and pop operations.
Cannon's still in business and I don't see that the inability to get Cannon parts has anything to do with the topic of this thread. The parts I'm interested in (steam detail parts) seem to be in adequate supply currently. I'm sorry you can't get your cab, but I can no longer get the SP style steam cabs and 70C-1 tenders that were made by MDC. Bachmann is no longer offering the SP 90C-1 tender as a separate item , either. We all have problems.
I see that DA offers an SP style headlight cluster for Baldwin switchers (at $6.50/pair). Not cheap, but acceptable if you want an SP S-12 equipped for light road duty. SP often used switchers as light road engines and they were equipped appropriately. Interestingly enough, Bowser has done the SP Baldwin with the road package. Unfortunately, it's in Bloody Nose, not Tiger Stripe. At some point in the future, they'll do the Tiger Stripe no doubt. They also have the S-12 in the traditional line in Tiger Stripe. To convert, I'd need a full set of handrails, the DA lights, number boards, DCC/Sound decoder and speakers and maybe some other parts (MU stands, air hoses, cab sun shades). Might end up costing the same as it would if I waited for the Executive line Tiger Stripe version. Oh well.
I don't understand why some just won't accept the fact that others think differently than they do.
On the contrary, I do understand that you like to detail the bejeezus out of diesels. Sounds like fun. Not cheap, however, any more than detailing a steam engine. Walthers wants $7 for a PSC SP pressed steel pilot http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/585-3291 and another $5 for the correct pilot beam. http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/585-3308 . I'd like an SP P-6 (used on the "Del Monte") circa 1953/54. Realistically, the only way one will ever be available (other than $2000+ brass) would be to use a Bowser or Mantua Pacific frame and cylinders (modified for alligator crossheads) and go from there. 3 sets of 77" spoked drivers from Greenway will cost $54. We're at $66 already. I could pick up a Mantua Pacific for probably $40-50 off eBay. OK, we're at $106-116. We're going to need a motor and gearbox. Just the motor and gearbox alone run around $60, but that requires more study. Rods and valve gear should be reusable. OK $166-176 so far. OK we need a trailing truck. Greenway has one close to prototype for $45. We're well over $200 and we don't have injectors, check valves, train indicators, washout plugs, compressor, air tanks, boiler steps, bell, whistle, safety valves, SP style stack, smokebox front, power reverse, blowdown spreaders, classification lamps, brake hangers, handrail posts, and assorted wire sizes for piping. We also don't have a tender. If a loose 90R-1 tender can be found, we're probably looking at $175-200. Otherwise, it'll probably have to be scratchbuilt. Fortunately, plans for a coal version (used by the Alton) appear in the Kalmbach Steam Locomotive Cyclopedia. Even with a scratchbuilt tender, we're probably looking at upwards of $350 for a DC engine. The hobby's not cheap. That's the way it's always been. especially if you want highly detailed models or models that aren't commercially available.
Andre
There is not one hobby that has not increased in price in the last 70 years. Be glad you don't hunt waterfowl. I killed my first Mallard in 1947 on thse lower Rio Grande. Shotgun shells have gone from $1.75 for a box of 25, to $30.00+ for a box of 10. George Soule decoys at LL Bean could be bought for under $50.00 for a dozen- -now they are $79.00 each, $66.00 if you buy three or more. Dogs could be had for under $100.00, today they start at $1500.00. Shotguns could be had for under 100.00. The last new pump-gun I purchased cost $475.00 for a Mossburg 835, and that was almost 20 years ago. The sport of fishing is no better. Much of my gear has been passed on from my Grandfather, and Father. I would have to think twice before becoming involved again, hobby decisions are made on an individual basis, if you can-you do, if you can't-you don't
Times change, might not like it, but they change.
I was always thankful I didn't make buggy whips.
herrinchoker
TW, what is your current inventory of engines and cars in all the scales? And what size are your layouts?
I'm puzzled, because I like to build HO kits too and there are way more craftsman kits available now than I'll get to in three lifetimes.
Bayfield Transfer Railway I don't understand why people bellyache about Athearn no longer making blue box stuff. Every hobby store and train show I go to (from South Dakota to Massachusetts) is overflowing with the stuff. In fact, that's why they stopped making it... it didn't sell. So if you want Athearn Blue Box cars or engines they're still out there in copious supply. Knock yourselves out. Becker's Model Railroad Supply and Scale Model Supplies both have a ton of it, and they both do mail order. You're welcome.
I don't understand why people bellyache about Athearn no longer making blue box stuff.
Every hobby store and train show I go to (from South Dakota to Massachusetts) is overflowing with the stuff. In fact, that's why they stopped making it... it didn't sell. So if you want Athearn Blue Box cars or engines they're still out there in copious supply. Knock yourselves out.
Becker's Model Railroad Supply and Scale Model Supplies both have a ton of it, and they both do mail order. You're welcome.
Chuck - Modeling in HO scale and anything narrow gauge
trwroute After giving this a lot of thought, I do not mind spending the money if its something that I feel is worth it. I just don't want to pay for all of the extra crap that I don't want. I have long enjoyed detailing and painting my own stuff and I don't want to pay anyone to have my fun for me. I just really hate it when I hear that "we" asked for the extra stuff. I didn't ask for anything. So, with that, I feel the prices are way too high. The Athearn RTR stuff is just fixed up BB (for the most part) and they could easily charge roughly what the BB items cost if they wouldn't add any detail parts. Then the modeler could add what was wanted or needed. The added benefit would be the detail parts manufacturers could stay in business. Instead, a lot of details are simply no longer available. But, that would require some to actually learn how to drill holes and apply parts. Maybe apply a little paint. Hey this sounds like the hobby of old! I guess the past was the best for me and the way that I like to model...
After giving this a lot of thought, I do not mind spending the money if its something that I feel is worth it. I just don't want to pay for all of the extra crap that I don't want. I have long enjoyed detailing and painting my own stuff and I don't want to pay anyone to have my fun for me.
I just really hate it when I hear that "we" asked for the extra stuff. I didn't ask for anything.
So, with that, I feel the prices are way too high.
The Athearn RTR stuff is just fixed up BB (for the most part) and they could easily charge roughly what the BB items cost if they wouldn't add any detail parts. Then the modeler could add what was wanted or needed. The added benefit would be the detail parts manufacturers could stay in business. Instead, a lot of details are simply no longer available.
But, that would require some to actually learn how to drill holes and apply parts. Maybe apply a little paint. Hey this sounds like the hobby of old!
I guess the past was the best for me and the way that I like to model...
I agree with you to a point. I don't want to pay for lots of fine detail not because I like to add that myself but because I just don't want it. Fortunately there are options. Accurail has essentially replaced Athearn BB and for my money is a better product. I replace their plastic wheels, install KD 148 couplers, weather them to whatever degree I feel like and I have a fine piece of rolling stock. When I put together a 20-25 car train, the eye isn't going to pick up all that fine detail on a single car so why pay for it.
It's similar to the way I feel about trees. Puff balls don't make very good individual trees but they are fine for representing a forest because our eyes don't focus in on individual trees in a forest.
Awesome.
*applause*
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
(model trains, that is)
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Bought a new car lately? I can do without automatic transmissions, moon rooves, Blue Tooth capability, etc. If it comes standard in the model you want because that model has other features you DO want, you have no choice.
If you want a station wagon like they used to make, you can't really get one, you get an SUV or crossover.
Completely different animal. No comparison. If I wanted to complain about car prices, I would go elsewhere.
The operative word here is "feel". Knowing is something else altogether.
The way that I used the word, pretty much says that I "know" they are high.
What is with the obsession with Athearn BB? Why has it become the Holy Grail for all who miss the "good old days" when trains were cheap (yeah, right, I've got a bridge over the East River for sale at a real bargain price)?
Uhh...they are used as a good example of good quality at a good price. You can insert any manufacturer that suits your needs. No one is forgetting about the other manufacturers that you listed, they just weren't as popular.
What added details to Athearn RTR?
I will never purchase an Athearn RTR car...I guess when I said the "BB" word, I should have followed it up with "locomotives".
With respect to the RTR diesels, yeah, OK, more details (not to mention scale width hoods, better mechanisms, and finer molding detail). And why not? Some roads had Mars/Gyralights in addition to regular headlights (and then there's SP's light clusters). The fact that it's possible to do these kinds of detail changes at the factory level instead of delivering vast quantities of generic shells is actually a step forward.
Maybe a step forward for you, but not for me. Again, I would rather do that myself and not pay someone else to do it for me. I am perfectly capable myself.
That goes double for steam when it's possible to deliver something like a USRA Heavy Mountain and a C&O J-2 as Bachmann did or an as-built SP MT-4 followed by the modernized version with skyline casing, disc main drivers, multiple bearing crossheads, and corrugated pilot. Did I mention BLI's pre and postwar versions of various Pennsy engines?
Don't do steam so can't comment on this.
Concerning detail parts...
Which parts would those be? Every time I go into The Train Shop in Santa Clara, there's a <censored> load of detail parts available for steam, diesel, rolling stock and more from Tomar Industries, PSC, Cal-Scale, Bowser (Selley and Cary)...
No it doesn't. In the hobby of old, you MADE your own parts. I commend for your reading "Thornburgh Builds A Wabash Mogul". It was a 6 part series that ran from January thru June, 1959 (IIRC) in MR.
No need to. I scratchbuilt a couple of N scale steamers back in the 70's so I do have a bit of experience doing that.
After giving this a lot of thought, I do not mind spending the money if its something that I feel is worth it. I just don't want to pay for all of the extra crap that I don't want.
BTW, you wouldn't think so from what I write, but I'm a cheapskate. So's my wife. More often than not we'll do a cost/benefit analysis before making a purchase of any significance.
The Athearn RTR stuff is just fixed up BB (for the most part) and they could easily charge roughly what the BB items cost if they wouldn't add any detail parts. Then the modeler could add what was wanted or needed.
What is with the obsession with Athearn BB? Why has it become the Holy Grail for all who miss the "good old days" when trains were cheap (yeah, right, I've got a bridge over the East River for sale at a real bargain price)? Has everybody forgotten the craftsman kits that were part of the hobby not all that long ago? You know, the kits that sold for from $3-5 fifty years ago and then often without trucks or couplers. Anybody remember Ambroid, Main Line Models, Binkley-Laconia, Red Ball, Ulrich, Silver Streak (now carried by Ye Olde Huff n Puff), the Central Valley old time freight cars? Anybody actually build any of these? A Central Valley old time boxcar kit (with trucks, less couplers) went for $4.75 ($35.39 today). If you were into the early 20th Century scene, you had CV or scratch building. La Belle has some similar cars (less trucks and couplers) now that run in the $20-25 range, but by the time you add trucks and couplers, you're back up in the mid 30's. If Roundhouse were currently making its old timers, they'd be going for about $25 MSRP RTR.
What added details to Athearn RTR? As far as cars go, the only changes I see are metal wheels, knuckle couplers, better paint and graphics and window inserts in caboose models. With respect to the RTR diesels, yeah, OK, more details (not to mention scale width hoods, better mechanisms, and finer molding detail). And why not? Some roads had Mars/Gyralights in addition to regular headlights (and then there's SP's light clusters). The fact that it's possible to do these kinds of detail changes at the factory level instead of delivering vast quantities of generic shells is actually a step forward. That goes double for steam when it's possible to deliver something like a USRA Heavy Mountain and a C&O J-2 as Bachmann did or an as-built SP MT-4 followed by the modernized version with skyline casing, disc main drivers, multiple bearing crossheads, and corrugated pilot. Did I mention BLI's pre and postwar versions of various Pennsy engines?
The added benefit would be the detail parts manufacturers could stay in business. Instead, a lot of details are simply no longer available.
Which parts would those be? Every time I go into The Train Shop in Santa Clara, there's a <censored> load of detail parts available for steam, diesel, rolling stock and more from Tomar Industries, PSC, Cal-Scale, Bowser (Selley and Cary). The place is also chock full of scratch building supplies. Have you checked out Caboose Hobbies list of PSC parts? Looks like most of them are in stock (they list 1393 of them). I'll let you check actual parts availability (all manufacturers carried by Caboose Hobbies). http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/index_home.php?cPath=280_281_282
Here's Walthers parts section (locomotives only). I'll let you check for stock availability. https://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Part&subc=LOCO
Structure parts: https://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Part&subc=STCTR
Rolling stock: https://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Part&subc=ROLLSTOK
I know a fair number of modelers who have taken early retirement and built a "dream basement" with a house over it, and for the most part thier layouts are larger than most club layouts of 40 years ago.If you're going to build a 2000 or 3000 square foot layout, you have chosen not to spend a lot of time on each individual piece of rolling stock.
trwroute ... But, that would require some to actually learn how to drill holes and apply parts. Maybe apply a little paint. Hey this sounds like the hobby of old! I guess the past was the best for me and the way that I like to model...
This part I get, even though I don't have the history in the hobby to look back on better times. I understand that happiness came from one's own efforts in times of old, even if one had to construct something from scratch. When the costs mount and the satisfaction is taken out of it, what's really left to look forward to? One would naturally look back wistfully and wish for similar circumstances.
As a comparative neophyte, I don't know any better than what I have endured/enjoyed to date. I do agree, it ain't cheap, especially on a fixed income. I don't purchase or order locomotives any more. I have 26 or 27, and should probably unload a few, but I selected each of them for their gee-whizz factor.
Sadly for many expressing their lamentations in this thread, the days where they got rolling stock for a few dollars and then got hours of creative fun out the the venture are coming to an end. The new face of the hobby is to pay more for the work that others have put into the models ahead of you because that's what the market tells the importers they should be offering to stay alive.
Although 99% of us "get it", there are always those among us that will refuse stubbornly. (you don't need me to tell you this)
I'm not so sure that it's 99%. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance out there. If you're convinced you're being screwed in the here and now, you don't want to hear that the same situation not only occurred in the past, but that back then, they didn't even promise to respect you in the morning.
I just going to throw my hat into your ring as one who understands economics, and wants to show some appreciation for the time you have taken to argue your point, as many of us here have simply given up trying to help those whom fall on gut feelings for reality instead of hard factual numbers.
Thank you for the kind words. The phenomenon extends way beyond model railroading. There are a whole lot of nonsensical memes floating around in the world that can't be discussed here as they are not specifically model railroad related and they get you into political firestorms.
I actually got my degree in economics, although I made my living in IT. I really need to back off on this whole discussion as it's a rather fruitless exercise. OTOH, debunking the "prices are way out of hand today" meme is a lot of fun. I think I'm becoming like the horses in "Young Frankenstein" that neigh when anyone says "Blücher". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdIID_TGwhM
andrechapelon According to the 1951 entries, gas cost 19 cents a gallon. That would be $1.72. Today I filled up for $2.21. More relevant perhaps is that a Varney "economy" Mikado kit was $41.75, or $376.91. Of course, this did not include a tender (sold separately). That was $7 or $63.19 today. Add 'em up and you get $440.10 in todfay's prices. My parents got married in 1939 (I was born in '46). You want to complain about prices? In 1939, a Varney Pacific, with tender, painted and ready to run could be had for $75. Sound cheap? That's the equivalent of $1266.49 in 2015. The kit, including tender and insulation kit for 2 rail, was $28.75 or $485.79 in today's cash. Remarkable. Varney charged the 2015 equivalent of $780.70 to assemble and paint the engine. You can buy no fewer than 3 DCC/Sound equipped Athearn 4-8-2's at full MSRP for the adjusted cost of a single 1939 RTR Varney Pacific and a single 4-8-2 costs an adjusted $65 less than the Varney kit. Varney had started offering plastic freight car kits for $1.50. Not too bad until you realize that's $25.53 in today's money. It would also be $3.40 in 1965 dollars. Things were so much better back then. Andre
According to the 1951 entries, gas cost 19 cents a gallon. That would be $1.72. Today I filled up for $2.21.
More relevant perhaps is that a Varney "economy" Mikado kit was $41.75, or $376.91. Of course, this did not include a tender (sold separately). That was $7 or $63.19 today. Add 'em up and you get $440.10 in todfay's prices.
My parents got married in 1939 (I was born in '46). You want to complain about prices? In 1939, a Varney Pacific, with tender, painted and ready to run could be had for $75. Sound cheap? That's the equivalent of $1266.49 in 2015. The kit, including tender and insulation kit for 2 rail, was $28.75 or $485.79 in today's cash. Remarkable. Varney charged the 2015 equivalent of $780.70 to assemble and paint the engine. You can buy no fewer than 3 DCC/Sound equipped Athearn 4-8-2's at full MSRP for the adjusted cost of a single 1939 RTR Varney Pacific and a single 4-8-2 costs an adjusted $65 less than the Varney kit.
Varney had started offering plastic freight car kits for $1.50. Not too bad until you realize that's $25.53 in today's money. It would also be $3.40 in 1965 dollars.
Things were so much better back then.
"Those Rose colored glasses..... as the song goes.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
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