maxman blownout cylinder I can see a business model involving a subscription fee. You can rent the loco of your choice for a specific period of time then, when you finish whatever you can mail it back...and etc... j/k j/k I believe that the prototype calls this power by the hour.
blownout cylinder I can see a business model involving a subscription fee. You can rent the loco of your choice for a specific period of time then, when you finish whatever you can mail it back...and etc... j/k j/k
I can see a business model involving a subscription fee. You can rent the loco of your choice for a specific period of time then, when you finish whatever you can mail it back...and etc...
j/k j/k
yep...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
riogrande5761 ATLANTIC CENTRAL Yes, Atlas knows what they are doing so well, they have not managed to sell me a single locomotive, and I have about 130 locomotives. You are probably not a fair rebutal in that regard if you are modeling a genre that doesn't use engines which Atlas majors in. Atlas is widely recognised for their high quality (as a rule) yet their prices have kept with the market norms - thats the consensus I have anyway.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Yes, Atlas knows what they are doing so well, they have not managed to sell me a single locomotive, and I have about 130 locomotives.
Yes, Atlas knows what they are doing so well, they have not managed to sell me a single locomotive, and I have about 130 locomotives.
You are probably not a fair rebutal in that regard if you are modeling a genre that doesn't use engines which Atlas majors in. Atlas is widely recognised for their high quality (as a rule) yet their prices have kept with the market norms - thats the consensus I have anyway.
I have every respect for the quality of Atlas locos and for the integrity of the company.
I don't buy Atlas locos for few simple reasons:
Only a few of their products are in my era - 1954 cutoff.
I don't like the preorder thing, I'm not getting on a list and waiting.
Undecorated Atlas engines are hard to get/find, and are not as "friendly" as Proto2000 undec's when it comes to painting.
Being in DC, it benefits me to stay with one brand as much as possible for MU operations. Proto has over their history offered nearly every first generation diesel of interest to me.
Sheldon
If that was the case, this thread wouldnt exist. Plainly alot of folks here must think there is alot of magic that goes into making a model. And therefore, must be worth hundreds of dollars. You keep thinking and paying that! I know better, a loco doesnt cost $250! Nor will i pay that. But you are more than welcome to. Please, go right ahead and enable the hobby to just skyrocket in price.
This thread exists because there is a significant number of people who are totally clueless as to how much it costs to manufacture and distribute anything and there's an underlying sense that small things should only command small prices regardless of actual production costs.
It's not we who believe in magic, it's you. You have no concept of what goes into manufacturing, the investment in tooling, the rent (or mortgage) for facilities, the paying of staff (managers, accountants, production workers, procurement people, payroll staff, office assistants, product designeers, etc.). The fact that you don't think a locomotive is worth $250 (after accounting for all costs) is nothing more than an opinion (and a mis-informed one at that). How much is an HO scale locomotive worth (let's say a GP38-2, DCC ready and prototypically detailed for <insert RR name here> like this Athearn Genesis model for an MSRP of $169.98 http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATHG65313 )? We know what you think is too much. Give us the benefit of your vast expertise and tell us what the thing should sell for.
I spose next year when that very same loco goes up another $100 you will be fine with the price. How about another $200? $300? How about $1000 for an HO F7-A for example. More power to you!!!! They already got you paying $250! And that makes me , but not at the manufacturer.
Ah, there we go. The truth comes out. You think the manufacturers are conspiring to rip us off and that prices are totally at odds with the actual cost of production (i.e. they're charging us a buck for something that only takes a nickel to make when all costs are added up). If that's the case, there oughta be someone out there willing to make a killing by making the same thing and charging a lower price for it. Why don't you step up and make models commercially? If $250 is too expensive for a diesel locomotive, then there's an opportunity for some enterprising individual to make a fortune selling the same thing for $175 or even $200.
Whether or not you can scratchbuild something for cheap is irrelevant to the discussion. You're not making models for commercial sale and there's a massive difference between building something for your own enjoyment and building the same thing (in large quantities) for the enjoyment of countless others. You think Athearn, Walthers, BLI, Intermountain charge too much and that they're making obscene profits? Go into business and undercut them.
No suckers in this household!
I don't know as I'd go that far if I were you as you still seem to believe in some form of Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and Tooth Fairy.
Well, maybe not Santa Claus. I hear the elves are threatening to strike for higher wages and paid vacations and that Santa Claus is under investigation for massive violations of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.
Maybe not the Tooth Fairy, either. I hear she's starting to object to the prices kids are demanding for their teeth. Let's face it. Baby teeth aren't worth more than a buck on the open market.
Now that I think of it, the Easter Bunny appears to be in financial trouble as it appears the price of raw cocoa beans is going up at a fairly rapid rate. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/26/indonesia-cocoa-deficit-idUSL3N0CI13Q20130326
<Roseann Rosanna Danna>Never mind. </Roseann Rosanna Danna>
Andre
blownout cylinder maxman blownout cylinder I can see a business model involving a subscription fee. You can rent the loco of your choice for a specific period of time then, when you finish whatever you can mail it back...and etc... j/k j/k I believe that the prototype calls this power by the hour. yep...
So basically, you're the Southwest Airlines of the model railroading hobby. Southwest limits itself to Boeing 737 variants.
andrechapelon blownout cylinder maxman blownout cylinder I can see a business model involving a subscription fee. You can rent the loco of your choice for a specific period of time then, when you finish whatever you can mail it back...and etc... j/k j/k I believe that the prototype calls this power by the hour. yep... And then there'll be a whole new Designated thread for people complaining that rents are exorbitant and that SOMETHING OUGHT TO BE DONE ABOUT IT. Andre
That's my devious plan.
You're evil.
I like that.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Only a few of their products are in my era - 1954 cutoff. I don't like the preorder thing, I'm not getting on a list and waiting. Sheldon
It that pretty much go without saying that people buy from whatever company makes stuff for their era and likes. I imagine if someone modeled 1910, they wouldn't have many choices for example.
Someone had a siggy that said model railroading was like a salad bar, I pick what I need and leave the rest. That said, I buy from most of the major brands (Accurail, Atlas, Athearn / Genesis, Concor, E&C Shops, LBF, ExactRail, Front Range, Intermountain, McKean, Model Die Casting Red Caboose, Tangent, Walthers)
I don't pre-order either, but that doesn't stop me from buying from companies that do that sort of thing.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Some people seem to have the strange idea that people who make and sell MR products are in business to help them build their dream layout. They are in business to make money and in the business they are in, they make their money by selling people the items to build their dream layout.
So, yes, these people want to make money. The scoundrels. Let's look at all that goes in to the cost of a $250 locomotive (OK, I'll probably overlook a few things):
Manufacturer
Plant (mortgage or rent).
Insurance.
Tooling.
Raw materials.
Labor.
Packaging.
Advertisement.
Website.
Transportation.
Profit.
Taxes.
Distributor
Warehouse (mortgage or rent).
Retailer
Store (mortgage or rent)
Insurance
Still think that $250 loco is overpriced?
jecorbett Some people seem to have the strange idea that people who make and sell MR products are in business to help them build their dream layout.
Some people seem to have the strange idea that people who make and sell MR products are in business to help them build their dream layout.
Actually I do have that strange idea. Otherwise they could be making a profit making some other line of products like gardening or home or automotive, something other than products that help me build my dream layout! =P
andrechapelon Being in DC, it benefits me to stay with one brand as much as possible for MU operations. Proto has over their history offered nearly every first generation diesel of interest to me. So basically, you're the Southwest Airlines of the model railroading hobby. Southwest limits itself to Boeing 737 variants. Andre
Well, yes, in a way.
All my GP7's are Proto - about 12 locos
All my ALCO FA1/FB1 and FA2/FB2 sets are Proto - about 15 locos
All my SD7/9's are Proto - about 3 locos?
All my BL2's are Proto - about 4 locos
All of the above run well together mixed and matched as needed.
All my PA1/PB1's are Proto - about 4 locos
All my E8 sets are Proto - about 6 locos
And they all run well together.
Almost all my F7/F3/FP7 sets are Genesis or Intermountain and they all run well together as well.
And I have a few others, Proto S1 switchers, SW switchers, Bachmann 44 and 70 tonners.
Sold the only BLI diesels I ever had, some F3's - would rather have Genesis or Intermountain.
It is much easier to maintain a fleet of similar equipment - that's why Checkers made such good cabs, well built, never changed, easy to repair.
And to keep us on topic - I purchased most of these Proto diesels at very atractive prices becuse I am a carefull shopper - who does not need little brains in my trains.
PM Railfan jecorbett Prices are already where they should be. If that was the case, this thread wouldnt exist. Plainly alot of folks here must think there is alot of magic that goes into making a model. And therefore, must be worth hundreds of dollars. You keep thinking and paying that! I know better, a loco doesnt cost $250! Nor will i pay that. But you are more than welcome to. Please, go right ahead and enable the hobby to just skyrocket in price. I spose next year when that very same loco goes up another $100 you will be fine with the price. How about another $200? $300? How about $1000 for an HO F7-A for example. More power to you!!!! They already got you paying $250! And that makes me , but not at the manufacturer. No suckers in this household! PM Railfan
jecorbett Prices are already where they should be.
PM Railfan
No suckers, perhaps, but nobody with any idea of how economics works, either. This thread does not exist because prices are too high, this thread exists because an enormous number of people don't understand elementary economics.
The simple fact is that as long as enough people are willing to pay higher prices, prices will go up, PERIOD. That really is all there is to it. The only way to keep the price of an Athearn Genesis engine from going from $250 to $350 is to convince enough people NOT TO PAY $350.The manufacturers are gambling that there are people willing to pay $350. So far they've been right.
And losing sales isn't always bad from the company point of view. If I double my profit and lose 10% of my sales, that's the correct decision.
There is actual science and historical data behind all this. The simple truth is you CANNOT make manufacturers reduce prices as long as enough people exist who are willing to pay the higher price.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
riogrande5761 jecorbett Some people seem to have the strange idea that people who make and sell MR products are in business to help them build their dream layout. Actually I do have that strange idea. Otherwise they could be making a profit making some other line of products like gardening or home or automotive, something other than products that help me build my dream layout! =P
jecorbett
I'm fairly certain that was not their motivation for starting their business. Their motivation is to make money. The means by which they do that is to sell you a product you want at a price you are willing to pay and at which they can make a profit. They need to make you feel you are getting your money's worth from them or they won't get repeat business from you and won't stay in business long. That is how a free market works. A buyer and a seller each acting in their own interest choose to enter into a transaction that is mutually beneficial. Each is getting what he wants from the other.
The Ma and Pa grocer didn't go into business to put food on your table. He went into business to put food on his table. There aren't many of those left because they were unable to sell product at a price competetive with the large chains. Their customers acting in their own self interest chose to shop where they got the most for their money.
Bayfield Transfer Railway Almost ANYTHING pays better than working for a model railroad company. Well, anything that doesn't involve French fries and a paper hat.
When I worked at MacDonald's, we wore paper hats. They have since upgraded to caps. I started in the fall of 1968 at a whopping $1.15 an hour in the fall of 1968. When I left there after graduating high school at the end of that school year, I had received three nickel an hour raises to $1.30. I didn't make a lot of money but it was great experience.
jecorbett I'm fairly certain that was not their motivation for starting their business. Their motivation is to make money.
I'm fairly certain that was not their motivation for starting their business. Their motivation is to make money.
Firstly, I'm on your side ... I'm not one of the whiners who think people are getting rich making trains. But, I would like to put it to you, why did they decide to make trains rather than widgets or auto parts, or you name it, to put food on the table? For some reason they decided to make trains - so my point is, they went into that line of business for a reason - I'd guess because they like trains and there is something special about it. I've heard enough people say how rough it is to be in the model train business, so there has to be something more than money - obviously money is necessary - it's a given.
jecorbett riogrande5761 jecorbett Some people seem to have the strange idea that people who make and sell MR products are in business to help them build their dream layout. Actually I do have that strange idea. Otherwise they could be making a profit making some other line of products like gardening or home or automotive, something other than products that help me build my dream layout! =P I'm fairly certain that was not their motivation for starting their business. Their motivation is to make money. The means by which they do that is to sell you a product you want at a price you are willing to pay and at which they can make a profit. They need to make you feel you are getting your money's worth from them or they won't get repeat business from you and won't stay in business long. That is how a free market works. A buyer and a seller each acting in their own interest choose to enter into a transaction that is mutually beneficial. Each is getting what he wants from the other. The Ma and Pa grocer didn't go into business to put food on your table. He went into business to put food on his table. There aren't many of those left because they were unable to sell product at a price competetive with the large chains. Their customers acting in their own self interest chose to shop where they got the most for their money.
I can't say this with 100% certainty with respect to rio grande's post, but were I a betting man, I'd put everything on Obvious Sarcasm for the win.
Come to think of it, I'd go for the trifecta with Tongue Firmly In Cheek to place and Supressed Laughter to show.
Bayfield Transfer RailwayI was at Trainfest in Milwaukee in 07 or 08, and I went by the Soundtraxx booth. There was a young lady working for Soundtraxx there, and some gooberhead spent ten minutes bitching her out roundly for how expensive their products were. After he left, she visibly wilted and looked ready to give up. I walked over and said "If it makes you feel better, some of us at least have some idea of how basic economics works." She shook her head and said "If I wanted to make big money, I'd still be in investment banking."Almost ANYTHING pays better than working for a model railroad company.
riogrande5761 jecorbett I'm fairly certain that was not their motivation for starting their business. Their motivation is to make money. Firstly, I'm on your side ... I'm not one of the whiners who think people are getting rich making trains. But, I would like to put it to you, why did they decide to make trains rather than widgets or auto parts, or you name it, to put food on the table? For some reason they decided to make trains - so my point is, they went into that line of business for a reason - I'd guess because they like trains and there is something special about it. I've heard enough people say how rough it is to be in the model train business, so there has to be something more than money - obviously money is necessary - it's a given.
OK, sometimes people are in a particular business because they learn it at a young age, or growing up, and it's what they know - their comfort zone.
Most small business people do have some sort of "passion" about what they do. Best advice my father ever gave me - do something you like because you may never be wealthy, and may have to do it for along time.
I love what I do, and I make a nice living - dad was smarter than most.
I have friend, now retired, who worked in IT for the government his whole life - he hated it. Now he works in a campground/park part time - he loves it. He should have followed his passion and been a park ranger all his life.....he was the classic Willy Loman until he retired and found a new life.
Some people follow the money, others follow their dreams and the money just happens.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OK, sometimes people are in a particular business because they learn it at a young age, or growing up, and it's what they know - their comfort zone.
That would explain why some people are in the business. The rest I'd assume have a passion for it, like our crazy Canadian, Jason!
Some people follow the money, others follow their dreams and the money just happens. Sheldon
Or follow our dreams and money happens! =P
20 years in IT, hated most of it.Okay, sometimes I miss the money... it WAS nice to be able to say "CNW C-628? I'll take 3."But I stopped having migranes after I got laid off my last IT job some years ago.
Andre and Sheldon,I just want to say that I've really enjoyed your posts on this thread.
As for my own contribution, I can say this:The owner of a injected plastic model railroading company told me that the cost of labor in China has tripled in 5 years for him for the exact same model.
The owner of a model railroading laser cut wood kit company told me that the cost of the packaging was more expensive than the materials cost of the kit inside.
The cost to tool a modern high end passenger car in HO scale is roughly $80,000.
Paul A. Cutler III
Jason Shron stated despite the number of skilled modellers, they don't buy a lot of kits. So kits have to be priced accordingly to recoup the costs of making them. But who would buy them at that price?
He also figured that it took about 8 eight hours to assemble one of his Park cars for The Canadian. Literally hundreds of parts, and getting them assembled correctly was a real problem.
I can't speak for Sheldon, but for my part, thank you.
The owner of a injected plastic model railroading company told me that the cost of labor in China has tripled in 5 years for him for the exact same model.
That's not surprising, actually. I've seen articles that would seem to indicate that China has started to experience labor shortages in some areas and people are going to migrate to higher paying employers if possible. We've been through this process before, first with Japan, then Korea and now China.
That's not surprising, either. As a percentage of total cost, I doubt that raw materials represent more than 5% of the cost of the end product.
Again, not surprising, given this:
How much does an injection mold cost?
Typically an injection mold can cost anywhere from a few thousand dollars to a few hundred thousand dollars. Many things contribute to this cost with the biggest factor probably being the complexity of the part as well as the size of the part. This can be deceiving because a very simple looking part could be very difficult to build a mold for because it has an undercut that will require moving parts in the mold to move out of the way allowing the part to be ejected freely when the mold opens.
More info: http://www.promoldplastics.com/PDFs/InjectionMoldingFAQ.pdf
Paul3 Andre and Sheldon,I just want to say that I've really enjoyed your posts on this thread. As for my own contribution, I can say this:The owner of a injected plastic model railroading company told me that the cost of labor in China has tripled in 5 years for him for the exact same model. The owner of a model railroading laser cut wood kit company told me that the cost of the packaging was more expensive than the materials cost of the kit inside. The cost to tool a modern high end passenger car in HO scale is roughly $80,000. Paul A. Cutler III
Paul, thank you for the kind words, glad you have enjoyed this.
Since this thread seems to be losing steam, it will no longer be sticky.
It will come back to the top page if someone starts another thread on the topic, which will be merged back into this one.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Steven Otte Since this thread seems to be losing steam, it will no longer be sticky. It will come back to the top page if someone starts another thread on the topic, which will be merged back into this one.
Now it won't always be at the top of Your Discussions when I open this web site.
Rich
Alton Junction
Yeah, I will miss it too....
Like a bad case of the flu.
Jim
Steven Otte It will come back to the top page if someone starts another thread on the topic, which will be merged back into this one.
The topic is not forbidden, merely beaten into the ground. My hopes in starting this thread is to let everyone get it out of their system, and contain it where the many people who are annoyed by the topic can easily avoid reading it.