Well after 4 pages I think we need a review of the question at hand that I possed originally. Which way do YOU run your locomotives, not the prototype.
Since the whole "F" designation has been described a few times, I will also mention that Alco, Baldwin, and Fair-Banks Morse were built with the long-hood forward standard. A RR would have to order their locomotives from these manufacturers with the engineer controls on the short-hood side of the cab, or as some N&W and Southern with dual-cab controls.
The "F" doesn't necessarily indicate which end is better to run from; it's just a designation. Even Budd RDCs had them.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
The end of the locomotive with the little white "F" on it. Most railroads use this to designate the end that should be considered the front.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I'm from a short hood forward crowd except for switchers where I thing the visibility should be towards the work at hand.
Crandel, That's a beautiful snow scene
Springfield PA
That is the Southerns side running Long Hood up Front! But up here in the Northern parts of the N&W it was the Short Hood Way!!!!!!! ( AKA Wabash and NKP) Kevin
I point the end with the little F toward the front
selector -Crandell
-Crandell
Looking at the F-M manual the H24-66 is 66 feet over pulling faces, 330 000# for general service3 units and 375 000# for Trainmaster units, and minimum curvature of 27 degree's for locomotive alone or 21 degree's for locomotive coupled to an "AAR 401611 freight car". The prime mover is an inline 12-cylinder diesel engine with an upper and lower crankshaft and an upper and lower set of pistons, with the piston crowns (top) facing each other in the center of the block.
As comparison an SD7 was around 360 000#'s and 60'-8" over pulling faces, less than 6 foot difference. Not a monsterous difference. What I think though is that F-M trains in general looked gigantic because of their design. The prime mover requires so much height that the side sills end up being tall compared to a GP9 or even an RS-3. Not to mention they also look like a block. The early Geeps and Alco's all had a lower hood height as compared to cab roof height, making them appear smaller, while the F-M's had a uniform hood/cab height making them look bigger in general.
Now, with all that said I must add that I'm a Badger Boy, born raised and most likely die in good ole Wisconsin (with a brick of cheese in one hand and a gallon of milk in the other) so I am pretty partial to the Beloit, WI built locomotives.
Flashwave Boiler explosions work as such that the water keeps the metal from reaching insane temperatures, like a buffer. Take the water out, and the crown sheet begins to heat like a firecracker. Water comes back into the picture, and is flash-boiled into steam at approxiamtely the speed of sound. Then steam, as steam is want to do, tries to expand. And when that happns, ain't no metal boiler, expecially one that is weakened by being hot an malliable like a forge, gonna stand in it's way. One explosion later, and your picking boiler parts out of the first three cars.
Boiler explosions work as such that the water keeps the metal from reaching insane temperatures, like a buffer. Take the water out, and the crown sheet begins to heat like a firecracker. Water comes back into the picture, and is flash-boiled into steam at approxiamtely the speed of sound. Then steam, as steam is want to do, tries to expand. And when that happns, ain't no metal boiler, expecially one that is weakened by being hot an malliable like a forge, gonna stand in it's way. One explosion later, and your picking boiler parts out of the first three cars.
You're closer to the real situation than the previous explanation, but when there's no water over the crown sheet (which is the top of the firebox), it overheats and fails - collapses, splits, whatever. The sudden decrease in pressure (all of the steam and water in the boiler is under pressure and is at a temperature much higher than the normal boiling point of water) causes all of that hot water to turn instantly to steam, increasing about 1500 times in volume.
Wayne
I once operated a Conrail GP38 that had it's control stand on the "fireman's" side, so the long hood was forward, even though it had a low nose. At first I thought this was kinda odd, but soon realized I could easily see signals regardless of the direction of travel.
pastorbob ATSF in 1989, I run them the way God intended, short hood /nose leading. Bob
ATSF in 1989, I run them the way God intended, short hood /nose leading.
Bob
According to the PRR & NW and God, long hood first.
The F is on the long hood!
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
That was my impression, Randy, when I first parked it near my NYC Hudson. It was a monster of a diesel, and seeing anything beyond its long snout would have been extremely difficult on any curve sharper than about 4 deg.
Actually a lot of railroads that ran Trainmasters ran them short hood forward, even if they ran smaller locos like Geeps long hood forward. The TM was just TOO huge. Seems silly by today's standards, but the Trainmaster was HUGE relative to other contemporary locos.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I run most of mine short hood forward but with the new stuff out there - Dash-7-8-9, it is hard to run long hood foward and have a view of what is a head of you. Until Crabville Eastern Rail Road has time develope the plot of land by the hot water heater and put in a turn table and to avoid the Hand of God Turntable method, I have my engines pointed the direction that works for my runs. I have a pair of CSX GP-38 that are MU'ed tail to tail so they can pull in any direction and the CERR RS-36 is the only one that gets to run long hood forward. For the local pick ups and drop offs it runs short hood forward and when switching in the yard your out on MOW it will run long hood forward. CSX has just aquired a new genset that will be doing the yard work come the weekend so all that the R36 will see LHF will be MOW work.
selector It seems 'right' to me to run them short hood forward, but I know full well that the railroads ran them as if they were steamers with a long boiler out front. At least, most did. Sooo, when someone on another forum asked me why this Fairbanks-Morse H24-66 was backing out of a tunnel, I replied that it was actually entering, but shoving a work train in to do repairs due to a rock fall from the roof of the tunnel. The asker was polite enough to accept my response. -Crandell
It seems 'right' to me to run them short hood forward, but I know full well that the railroads ran them as if they were steamers with a long boiler out front. At least, most did.
Sooo, when someone on another forum asked me why this Fairbanks-Morse H24-66 was backing out of a tunnel, I replied that it was actually entering, but shoving a work train in to do repairs due to a rock fall from the roof of the tunnel. The asker was polite enough to accept my response.
So um... where's its rear markers or FRED? And why is it not observing rule 17 lighting.... ???
(Hint: FRA 221.17 will set you free... :-)
John
MisterBeasley The Milwaukee Road ran their GP9s and Alco RS3s long hood forward, and so do I.
The Milwaukee Road ran their GP9s and Alco RS3s long hood forward, and so do I.
Milw GP9's(all 128 of them) & RS3's(21) vwere delivered with the short hood set up as the 'front'. The SD7's(24) and SD9's(15) were set up that way as well. The RS1 & RSC2 engines were delivered with the long hood forward.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Long hood for the ME&O RS3
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
Whichever way I want to go...
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
Varies. EX-GN locos (up to GP20 and SD9) are long-hood foward, as were some RS3s. There may have been a few other locos to run long-hood foward. But other than that SHort-hood foward.
My 2 high-hood GP20s and my RS3 are long-hood foward
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
I (intend to) model the early transition era, and my road switcher fleet is primarily ALCO, so it's long hoods forward, even on the geeps.
However, I just might run my cab units blunt end forward, just to be contrary...
Dan
steemtrayn ns3010: Actually, with commuter equipment (i.e. Comets), the cars are designed for the B end to face the locomotive. The cars must all be facing the same direction for the doors to trainline. The plugs on one side of the car is HEP, and the other side is the trainline. If they were not facing the same direction, the cars would be able to open locally only. On Comets, the door control and PA wires run on one side, and traction (remote) controls on the other. HEP cables are on both sides.
ns3010: Actually, with commuter equipment (i.e. Comets), the cars are designed for the B end to face the locomotive. The cars must all be facing the same direction for the doors to trainline. The plugs on one side of the car is HEP, and the other side is the trainline. If they were not facing the same direction, the cars would be able to open locally only.
Actually, with commuter equipment (i.e. Comets), the cars are designed for the B end to face the locomotive. The cars must all be facing the same direction for the doors to trainline. The plugs on one side of the car is HEP, and the other side is the trainline. If they were not facing the same direction, the cars would be able to open locally only.
On Comets, the door control and PA wires run on one side, and traction (remote) controls on the other. HEP cables are on both sides.
You're right, my mistake.
On cars, the HEP is on both sides, trainline is on one, and remote cab controls (throttle, etc.) is on the other. Here, HEP is white, and trainline and controls are black and orange (not sure which is which):http://ns3010.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1443891
On locomotives, HEP, trainline, and controls are all on both sides (two white, one black, and one orange per side):http://ns3010.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2227493
No matter which way the car is facing, HEP always works. Trainline and controls only work if all cars face the same direction, as the cables cannot be crossed above or below the coupler.
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I run my RS3's long hood forward like the prototype (ok, the prototype actually had RS2's)
Everything else typically runs short hood forward. Unless I choose to run them the other way, in which case they'd be long hood forward. Except the RS3's, which would then actually be short hood forward. It's CHAOS I tell you!
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
ns3010 Actually, with commuter equipment (i.e. Comets), the cars are designed for the B end to face the locomotive. The cars must all be facing the same direction for the doors to trainline. The plugs on one side of the car is HEP, and the other side is the trainline. If they were not facing the same direction, the cars would be able to open locally only.
Flashwave ns3010: Although my layout has yet to be built, it depends. Passenger trains will run with the locomotive always facing the West, on the west end. The B end of every car will face the locomotive so that the HO passengers will have lighting, heating, and cooling in all cars. And the cab car will be on the east end, with the cab (A end) facing the East. Good to see consistancy, but it really doesn't matter which way a coach is facing for electrical. What does matter is how you get the traps to the platform, which usually puts the B end next to the engine so that the trap is immediately at the platform instead of being 80ft away. But if your running Horizons/Comets and Amfleets with doors on either end, that doesn't matter so much.
ns3010: Although my layout has yet to be built, it depends. Passenger trains will run with the locomotive always facing the West, on the west end. The B end of every car will face the locomotive so that the HO passengers will have lighting, heating, and cooling in all cars. And the cab car will be on the east end, with the cab (A end) facing the East.
Although my layout has yet to be built, it depends.
Passenger trains will run with the locomotive always facing the West, on the west end. The B end of every car will face the locomotive so that the HO passengers will have lighting, heating, and cooling in all cars. And the cab car will be on the east end, with the cab (A end) facing the East.
For long(er) distance cars (such as Amfleets), this does not matter. The doors do not trainline, so there are HEP plugs on both sides of the car, and therefore can face either direction.
Like most short lines it doesn't matter.
See?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Default setting on my GP is long hood forward, It's a PRR so is mirrors actual practice.
ns3010 Although my layout has yet to be built, it depends. Passenger trains will run with the locomotive always facing the West, on the west end. The B end of every car will face the locomotive so that the HO passengers will have lighting, heating, and cooling in all cars. And the cab car will be on the east end, with the cab (A end) facing the East.
cv_acr IVRW: I dont model diesel, but I can tell you this about steam. In order to prevent rapid boiler cooling and spontaneous explosion, steam locomotives would point up the steep grade, regardless of direction of travel. This was to keep the water in the firebox to be heated up, rather than flowing into the front of the locomotive turning all the steam to water destroying the pressure and nullifying the brakes. It has nothing to do with braking. If the firebox did not have water over it, it could cause the conditions for a boiler explosion. That said, you need an extreme grade for that to be an issue. (Mt Washington cog railroad extreme) Most low water issues would simply be a case of the engine running out of water.
IVRW: I dont model diesel, but I can tell you this about steam. In order to prevent rapid boiler cooling and spontaneous explosion, steam locomotives would point up the steep grade, regardless of direction of travel. This was to keep the water in the firebox to be heated up, rather than flowing into the front of the locomotive turning all the steam to water destroying the pressure and nullifying the brakes.
I dont model diesel, but I can tell you this about steam. In order to prevent rapid boiler cooling and spontaneous explosion, steam locomotives would point up the steep grade, regardless of direction of travel. This was to keep the water in the firebox to be heated up, rather than flowing into the front of the locomotive turning all the steam to water destroying the pressure and nullifying the brakes.
It has nothing to do with braking. If the firebox did not have water over it, it could cause the conditions for a boiler explosion.
That said, you need an extreme grade for that to be an issue. (Mt Washington cog railroad extreme) Most low water issues would simply be a case of the engine running out of water.
5.89% will do you sufficently. Another lesson the Madison leanred the hard way, they ran an engine boiler-down The Hill. (Only once) and the M.G.Bright slef destructed because the fireman didn't keep enough water on the crownsheet as they went up the hill. I'm pretty sure she was oriented the proper direction (Boiler up) and he jsut let ot get too dry. Again, only once.
For me, Half-Moon ran them short-hood forward when bought new, and long hood if bought used and already setup that way. Also, Half-Moon tried a few steam engines going flat-hood forward, similar to the Espee. SO nyah! to al you stemers=long hood. For Madison Railroad, the GP10 is short-hood, and the two SD7s are built Long Hood. From the pictures I've seen, 8588 was Long-Hood South, and 8589 was long-hood North, so when coupled together to mount the hill the were forward in both directions. hat sadi, I have seen a picture of 8589 coming down the Hill solo, still oriented LH-N, so the short hood led. Thing I alwasy figured, if the longhood was leading, and the train got away, the first part to bury itself in the mud of the Ohio River is the nonpopulated long-hood, giving the crew reither shallow water or dry land to hop out on once the train settled.
I also lettered some engiens for my local club. One of them I screwed up, but it orves to be an interesting Oops, and one I think people won;t notice. According to the Fs on the engines, 3.5 SDs are running long hood forward. The other side of one of them has designated the short hood forward. So both camps can be happy.
-Morgan
I model the NYC and the NKP. On my RR both get their checks signed by the same person so I can mix and match as I see fit. My family has a history with both RR's hence the permanent merger. I go long hood forward with NYC and NKP short hood forward that makes for some interesting lashups.
Most, if not all, of my diesels carry an F for forward on the frame, so I run them all that way.
Rich
Alton Junction