ANYONE MODELLING THE NEW YORK SUBWAY or any other underground railway system?

[lupo]

In an ad in MR magazine I noticed a proto 1000 new york subway set, so there must be people around who model a subway system,
I was curious how:
do you only model the above ground tracks and stations with some tunnels or could you model actual underground railways in a tube with an open side,
does anyone has pictures how such a lay-out may look like?
does anyone ideas or suggestions how ?
I saw some subways in the big Chicago lay-out featered in MR mag. some months ago, but thatts all

[Anonymous]

It would be rather difficult because you can't see the trains. That train that proto sells is a virtual train ya see, because it runs underground[:D][:D][:D]




Ya, I would think that you would model only that part that was above ground although I did recently see an artical, I think in MR, where the underground was modeled out at the front edge of the layout. Really neat too.[:D]

[cp1057]

There's a friend of mine who bought some N scale subway cars I think its a Japanese prototype. He hasn't done anything with them yet.

Hard to say how satisfying a subway layout would be operation-wise, but I think it would make for some really neat dioramas. A cutaway view of a subway station would make the ultimate shadow-box mounted flush on the wall. A pair of staging tracks on each side and some timing circuitry and you would have the ultimate display layout.

I remember an MR article that featured a Conrail layout and had a subway beneath Pittsburg.

Charles
Hillsburgh On.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I love the New York subways, they are so cool. Actually it would be fun to do cut away underground, with transition to EL. This would be a great shelf modeling subject, because in most locations it isn't more than 4 tracks wide!

A 12" wide shelf at least 200' long might do justice and the South Ferry loop station would be a fun one to model at one end.

If you want to see some cool maps, check this out!!

http://www.nycsubway.org/index.html

[Anonymous]

Great website, thanks.

[DSchmitt]

I have the book "40 Feet Below" about the underground freight railroad that used to run under downtown Chicago. It would be a fun one to model. Besides the underground, it had a few terminals above ground. It carried mail, freight for various businesses (in particular department stores), Coal for heating and the ashes from the furnaces.

[Jetrock]

Some subway systems also have above-ground trackage--BART alternates between being a subway in the bigger cities and a surface/elevated railroad in the suburbs. One could feasibly have a single system provide elevated, subway and surface commuter service through a judicious use of hills--rather than use sharp grades to move track up or down, build your city along the side of a hill and provide subway and surface service to the "high" end, and elevated and surface service to the "low" end. Cutaways on the outer edge of the high end can show the subway stations and corridors--tunnel portals in the middle pop out into suburban stations.

[lupo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by emeraldisle

It would be rather difficult because you can't see the trains. That train that proto sells is a virtual train ya see, because it runs underground[:D][:D][:D]

I think there are a lot of us around that had other ideas of creating an "underground railroad" as that @#@ engine would not run proper and you had the urge to flush it down the toilet, but that is not the type of layout I had in mind,
It could be an shelf kind of layout made of Wastewater (oops there they are again) tubes with the side cut out, around the room with some stations along the route

btw the pneumatic version of an underground in the link bb4005 posted is cool !

[CNJ831]

Some years ago, while attending a trolley modelers' convention, I saw a subway layout modeled in HO. It consisted of a very fine urban scene with the below-grade sides of the layout open at intervals to show stations, tunnels, etc. To say the least, it was urban modeling at its finest, with large, multi-storied buildings and street scenes above the trains.
At a later date I saw a video with the same general concept done in O-guage tin-plate.

I'd think such a design could be combined with a separate elevated street operation, as NYC has, to created a very interesting and unusual layout. I have seen ELs modeled in HO on several occasions but never these two types of trains together.

CNJ831

[lupo]

thanks cnj831,
so it is done do you know if there is a website dedicated to the layout you mention or are there pictures on the net?

[Anonymous]

Its only on the drawing board right now, but we recently discovered we have room to add a streetcar loop in Minas Tirith, that will also head into a subway stop visible through a cutout in the fascia. Most likely we'll do the track as a figure 8, with half of it coming through a scene divide into South Ithilian as an elevated line. Because of the figure 8, we can have different route names on each side of the trolley.

All the subway and trolley lines in Boston alternate between under and above ground trackage.

Cheers,
Mo

[lupo]

Hi Maureen,
do you got your inspiration from LOTR?
does your layout resemble any of the structures used in that film?
must look cool!
makes me curious!

[AntonioFP45]

[:)][:D]Lupo,

If you haven't already, go to your search engine (I use MSN) and type in
New York City Model Transit Association. I think you will really like it.

Featured is a very impressive club layout featuring the El / Subway system. Lots of nice closeup shots. Even though it's O-scale, you will pick up a lot of great ideas! You can e-mail them and ask if the club or any of the club members have additional info that they will e-mail you.

Hope this helps!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Excellent website Antonio!!! Thanks.
http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm

Uh oh, I SAW GRAFFITI !!!!

[:D][:D][}:)][:-,][:-,][:-,][:P][swg][swg][swg]
For more graffiti check out these topics.
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12825
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12463

[AntonioFP45]

[:)][:D][8D][;)]Thanks for the kind words, Big_Boy_4005.

[:)][8D]I hope that Lupo reads this thread again and goes to the website. It is pretty impressive and offers so many good ideas for anyone thinking about building an urban theme for his or her layout., regardless of scale.

God Bless!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Antonio, Lupo is a big UP fan, I think this was more of a rhetorical topic for him, but a fun one just the same. [swg][swg][swg][tup]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lupo

Hi Maureen,
do you got your inspiration from LOTR?
does your layout resemble any of the structures used in that film?
must look cool!
makes me curious!

We started design and planning at the end of 2000, before any of the movies came out. We're not trying to model the vision of the movies. There's a great LOTR tradition where each artist creates their own vision of what the world looks like. And plus, we're modelling the early steam age (and the first electric trolley in the big city), several hundred years after the time of Tolkein's story.

Our plan is to get a website up shortly after we have the first track glued down. First table frame is up (Hobbiton/Gray Havens module), pink foam is rising, track is on hand.... If life doesn't keep intervening, at some point we'll actually have trains running. [:I] But the delay in trackwork has worked out well. We now have Atlas code 55 (N) that wasn't available when we started, and we have better DCC options available now. We'll buy the DCC system immediately after track is laid to have the most current options.

We've been working on structures steadily all along, so the scenes will fill up pretty rapidly once the trackwork is laid and tested. Right now we're polishing up some fun structures for Hobbiton, putting shopfronts and pubs in arched arcade walls.

We now have all of the kits on hand for Gray Havens, Hobbiton, Bree, Rivendell, and Mirkwood, and some for Esgaroth, the Iron Hills, Mordor, Lorien, and Minas Tirith. Many are complete or near-complete. All the unbuilt ones have already had their kit-bashing worked out, sketched, and measured; so we know their exact footprints and how they will fit into the scenes.

Cheers,
Mo

[lupo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

[:)][:D][8D][;)]Thanks for the kind words, Big_Boy_4005.

[:)][8D]I hope that Lupo reads this thread again and goes to the website. It is pretty impressive and offers so many good ideas for anyone thinking about building an urban theme for his or her layout., regardless of scale.

God Bless!

Thanks Antonio, great website and thanks all others for your posts, I had no chance to reply earlier because of a major @#$% up with my ISP, no internet connection for allmost 3 days!
Bigboy4005 was right about the me and UP but as I was reading my MR mag I found these newyork subway set and I wondered how a lay-out from someone modelling an subway system would look like. I am a very curious guy.
As I am still in the planning phase, I rule out nothing, there are some great ideas around, special the work Maureen is planning!
I am looking forward to the first pics of your layout!

[Anonymous]

plexiglass streets would be cool so u could see the whole subway system

[AntonioFP45]

Elias, Good idea!

[;)]You got something there.

How about just plexiglass over the subway tunnel & station portion only and have pre-cut gray styrene or plastic streets already painted to resemble concrete that would neatly fit on top of the plexiglass for whenever we want to hide the underground view.

Plexiglass cutaway models in museums are common. Just a thought, but I really think it's doable!

Thanks again![:)][8D][^]

[:D][8D]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by elias

plexiglass streets would be cool so u could see the whole subway system

A cool idea for "cut and cover", I wonder what the mayor would say?[swg][swg][swg]

I know you were just thinking of modeling, but its fun to think BIG sometimes.[:D]

[Anonymous]

I think the Chicago El & Subway would be extremly cool to model. 90% of it is above Ground & you would have to model Wrigley Field into it also. It would take forever but it would be very cool when done.

[Jetrock]

Trying to beat the Chicago model in the Museum of Science & Industry would be hard indeed--most of the models of the El are small, maybe 6-10 feet, because city modeling and El modeling are very, very labor intensive!

[NYSubway18]

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of this thread, Elliot.

Thanks to MTH, most of us New York Subway fans now model in O, because it was the only scale with readily available subways. They've produced 8 different sets to date, with several more in the works. While the size and lack of space makes it difficult, and HO would have been better - most of us are so deep in now it's too late to turn back just because Proto finally stepped up to the plate. There are those out there that have been doing it in HO for years - all scratchbuilt. Check out this site, and go to the Layouts page.

http://www.monmouth.com/user_pages/patv/railroad.html

[Big_Boy_4005]

Another spectacular link!!!! Thank you NYSubway18

[Anonymous]

In the '40s and '50s I was living on the fifth floor of an apartment in Queens NY within eyesite and earshot of the elevated portion of the I.R.T. subway that is a 4-track main with both local and express tracks w/ stations approx every 8-10 streets (we called them blocks). Some of the stations were local only stops and the express trains really ripped through those stops. Shortly after tunneling under the East River from Manhattan the trains would emerge into the 'aboveground ' on a fairly steep grade and cross most of Queens going underground just short of Flushing-the end of the line. I remember very tight curves and switches as well as complicated trackage-crossovers, etc. The tracks ran near the sites of the N.Y. World's Fair and Shea Stadium. But what I most remember was the proximity to PRR's Sunnyside Yards and the massive Subway shops & storage tracks closer to Flushing in Corona. believe there was an overpass of the Long Island RR at approx. 72nd St. in Jackson Heights but the mind is fuzzy on that point. The trains ran every few minutes and were incredibly noisy. One could incorporate hidden staging tracks at each end of a layout design (no need for reverse loops) and model the entire system that was 'aboveground' This line is still in operation and the 4 track main is still in use. Now if you could even include a bit of the Sunnyside Yard too. . .The Long Island City area was fairly industralized back then; and probably still is. . . (Haven't been back there in years,) Proto 1000 cars may actually be modeled after the I.R.T. cars in use for several decades but I haven't seen them up close. There were similar 'aboveground' portions of the NYC subway system in Brooklyn and I think in upper Manhattan and the Bronx. At one time there were elevated subways all over the NYC area, esp in Manhattan, but they were removed 50 or more years ago. They used really ancient equipment, not at all like the Proto 1000 models, along 2nd and 3rd avenue in Manhattan-remember not enjoying the couple of rides on the 3rd Ave. El-dirty, dark,and horrible rattan seats. The Proto 1000 cars appear to be much newer than those ever used on those long since defunct elevated lines. Also, keep in mind that not all of the NYC subway equipment was interchangeable throughout the system due to width of cars dictated by station platform clearances. I'd suggest you contact Trainworld since they are right in NYC area or Life-Like for prototype information. Two books I can recommend are - "Building the Independent Subway" by Frederick A. Kramer (Quadrant Press) and "The Brooklyn Elevated " by James C. Greller & Edward B. Watson (N. J. International) - both very well illustrated and informative re: equipment, operations, stations, construction and plenty of period photos. I'm sure there are other similar publications. Suggest you get good at resin casting if you intend to model all that above -street supporting steel work! Another option would be to just have a sound recording of the subway and 'model' only the underground portion of the system! Hope you proceed with your 'subway' layout.

[lupo]

Wow Bill, quite some info here!
as I started this topic I was just curious how a subway layout would look, but your idea
about the maintenace and storage yard, the elevated track, steep grades and very tight curves and switches. may be a nice addition to a layout, put it in a corner the maintenace facility on an elevated piece of the lay-out, continuing on elevated track and with a steep curved grade the tracks vanish below ground underneat the rest of the lay-out.
could give a nice perspective in a city lay-out.
I guess the curve-radius for these subway trains could be much closer as for the normal modelrailroad.

LUPO

[Anonymous]

LUPO - thanks for comment re; my post. Brought back memories of my first ten years growing up in NYC. Check out the recommended websites referred to earlier in this 'topic' , esp www.nycsubway.org An incredible amount of useful and fascinating info and tremendous photo archive. Saw pics of IRT, BMT & IND cars I rode, the station at 82nd St/Jackson Heights on Flushing Line where I used to sneak under the turnstyle when I was 7 or 8 to meet my Dad on the platformh when he was coming home from work in Manhattan. There is a good section on the (Hudson) 'Tubes' now PATH trains we used to take to Hoboken when it was too cold to take the ferry. There's even a bit of my old apartment building peaking over the tops of some IRT cars in the 82nd St station; can actually see my old kitchen window! My wife yawned when I showed it to her. . .Anyway thanks for introducing this topic - brought back good memories. Bit more obtuse trivia-there was at least one, possibly more, model railroad shops in shopping arcades in subway station underground. May have been at Times Square or Grand Central Subway Station. . .

[Leon Silverman]

If you want a system with variety, try modeling the downtown Philadelphia area. In addition to an El, you have subway-surface trolleys which partially parallel the el, until they both cross a total subway line, at which point the subway surface loops around both underground lines for the return trip. The subway surface line has two exits beyond the el with the trolley going off in a total of three different direction.
Add to this confusion, there is a commutor tunnel near the center city intersection where full size commutor trains run. The PRR and Reading railroads had separate downtown terminals. The tunnel connects these formerly separate lines so that the trains now run through center city rather than reversing themselves to back out in the same direction.

[MisterBeasley]

I'm planning a subway, loosely modelled on Boston. I got the Life-like R-17's last week for the heavy rail part, and I'll be looking for a PCC-type trolley for the light rail, although I'll probably by non-prototype-compliant and run them over the same lines. Most of the tracks will be underground and invisible, but the stations will be seen edge-on from the side of the layout, with buildings above. I've got to think a bit more about access, though.

Eventually, I want to add an engine-cam video to the front car, so the tunnel and subway station scenery will be "seen" from the motorman's perspective. Part of the challenge is mass-producing "scenery" for the inside of the tunnels.

Yeah, it's a dream, but the lumber for the benchwork is out in the garage, the R-17's are up in the family room on a test track (they're sweet) and my first passengers are in transit on a UPS truck from rocousa.com.