AHM to IHC- Why and How?

[tstage]

toptrain

What does anyone know about the Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2 made from 1954 toabout 1959. Also info on the 1957 SP 4-4-2 made for Lionel. 

toptrain,

Please start a new thread in regards to your query - Thanks.

Tom

[mbinsewi]

I guess it is Stix!  Well, lets see what we can do.  

You mentioned Lionel, are we talking HO scale?  If not, there's a forum for the "O" gauge.

Lets go with HO scale for the Rivarossi 4-4-2.  We have a resident expert on Rivarossi locomotives, HO scale, so lets see if Mel will find this and chime in.

Just a thought to the OP, if you started a new thread asking about the Rivarossi 4-4-2, you'll get more responses, as this original thread was about IHC vs AHM, so no one with Rivarossi knowledge is going to look in here to see your question.

Mike.

[wjstix]

Wow, this might be a record - a thread resurrected after more than 11 years!!

[toptrain]

What does anyone know about the Rivarossi Southern Pacific 4-4-2 made from 1954 toabout 1959. Also info on the 1957 SP 4-4-2 made for Lionel. 

[mobilman44]

Wow, Woolco and Kresges!!!!!

Yup, I bought my share of ATSF AHM steam locos way back then.  Actually, the Pacific ran especially good and pulled a string of Athearn heavyweights for years.  I always wanted the big articulated, but I believe Santa Fe only had 10 or so of them that they bought from N&W and then only had them a few years during/after WWII.  Actually, I couldn't afford it anyway.

My problem was never with the locos, for I felt that they were the best steamers around for the money.  My problem was getting KDs to fit on them.  Some I managed to do so, but others like the Pacific caused me to have a transition car with NMRA on one end and KDs on the other.

All have been sold on Ebay and upgraded to BLIs, but they sure did fill a void in their time.

ENJOY,

Mobilman44

[Darth Santa Fe]

Most of those El-Cheapo diesels are still available, and I even have a couple. The running quality is actually surprisingly smooth, almost like a Kato, believe it or not.

The C-628, SD40, C-415, and FP45 are still available from IHC, only with better electrical pickup, all wheel drive, and a better motor. The RS-2, DDT, and C-430 are still available from Model Power with few to no upgrades. The GP18 is still made, but only from Mehano, and they're probably easiest to get if you live in Europe. The SW-1, MDT, F9A, and Alco 1000 are all gone.

[ndbprr]

Did the mention of Woolco bring back memories!  I bought a dockside and several passenger cars for $1.00 each after Christmas.  Another good store for after Christmas sales was E J Korvettes.  I bought a Big Boy for $22.00 there

[aloco]

Model Power actually had two different versions of the FA-2:

The first version was made by Roco, and the drive and body shell were not bad at the time, although the position of the radiator shutters suggests that it's an FA-1.

The second version came out in the 1990s and was made in Yugoslavia.  It had a much simpler looking shell and the drive train was similar to the other 8 wheel drive Yugoslavian made diesels. 

[SteamFreak]

The locos I'm describing have a flat can type motor, no flywheels, 8 wheel drive, and a one piece frame/handrail set.   I had quite a few of these engines when I got back into model railroading in 1982.

I was given an RS2 when I was young, and it ran a few weeks before the motor smoked itself. 

AHM came out with some 4 drive axle Mehano diesels around 1978, and I think they started with the GP18. I still remember the review in Model Railroader, and that they were available in the orange Amtrak maintenance scheme. The FA2 was one of the better models from that time, and was a Roco product sold by Model Power. I think the only Roco product AHM ever carried was the Alco Century 424. A friend had one in BN.

AHM also had 4-axle drive 6-axle diesels () like the FP45, as Jim mentioned. I'd discovered Athearn by that time, so I never bothered with any of these.

They have continued to be available through Life-Like, Model Power, and IHC over the years.

This site is a handy reference. AHM HO-Scale Trains Resource

[aloco]

But what about all those junky diesels made in Yugoslavia?

SW1, GP18, F9A, SD40, Alco 1000, RS-2, FA-2, RS-11, C-628

Some were sold under the AHM brand name, while others were sold as Life-Like or Model Power locos.

Is Mehano the Yugoslavian manufacturer of these diesels?

The locos I'm describing have a flat can type motor, no flywheels, 8 wheel drive, and a one piece frame/handrail set.   I had quite a few of these engines when I got back into model railroading in 1982.

I know that the early AHM RS-2 had a separate handrail set and only one powered truck, but the mechanism and frame were revised in the late 1970s and the loco was sold under the Model Power brand name.   

[Soo Line fan]

I had a SD 40 with only 4 wheels in each of the six wheel trucks powered.

But wait theirs more. Only 4 wheels out of 12 had power pickup.

I pitched that junk along time ago.

Jim

[SteamFreak]

But what about all those junky diesels made in Yugoslavia?

SW1, GP18, F9A, SD40, Alco 1000, RS-2, FA-2, RS-11, C-628

Some were sold under the AHM brand name, while others were sold as Life-Like or Model Power locos.

Is Mehano the Yugoslavian manufacturer of these diesels?

Yup! They were responsible for all of those coffee grinders with the breakaway handrails. They were often marked 'Tempo' in the AHM days, and they manufactured for Tyco, Mantua, Pemco, and American Train & Track as well. The funny thing is that today Mehano makes better steamers than diesels.  

[aloco]

But what about all those junky diesels made in Yugoslavia?

SW1, GP18, F9A, SD40, Alco 1000, RS-2, FA-2, RS-11, C-628

Some were sold under the AHM brand name, while others were sold as Life-Like or Model Power locos.

Is Mehano the Yugoslavian manufacturer of these diesels?

[Soo Line fan]

c1985 the US importer went bankrupt owing Rivarossi about the same amount as the
capital value of the firm.

So this is when AHM folded. I got into HO in the mid 80s or so and they were still around.

Great info everyone.

Jim

[wjstix]

IIRC Lionel had gone to Italy before the war (many of the executives of Lionel were of Italian ancestry) and had some accessories made there and shipped to US, and some of the early people involved in Rivarossi had worked on the Lionel products earlier??

[SteamFreak]

I do not know the relationship between Pocher and Rivarossi.

This timeline is in the usenet archive I posted a link to in my first post.

 

Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:08 pm

A brief history of Rivarossi: Founded 1948 to build model railways. (3 rail AC initially and then 2 rail DC) US products began around 1950. 1960 - over half the product range was for the US market. c1965 - Pocher aquired c1975 the entire factory was destroyed by fire. c1985 the US importer went bankrupt owing Rivarossi about the same amount as the capital value of the firm. c1998 the Italian firm Lima + French Jouef + German Arnold went bankrupt.(four times the size of Rivarossi) The Italian government landed the sorry mess on Rivarossi - they gained the dies etc but at the cost of keeping the Italian factories open. c2002 the US importer folds leaving debts greater than the capital value of Rivarossi. 10/2004 Hornby buys most of the dies (including the US and European ranges) and ships them to China. Regards, Greg.P.

[wjstix]

I have both Rivarossi and IHC passenger cars from recent years of the same type (i.e. diners, sleepers etc.), and although similar they are definitely not the same. The Rivarossi cars are better detailed  (For example, Rivarossi heavyweight cars have nice rivet detailing on the roofs, IHC cars are basically smooth with no details.) IHC cars like to wobble, Rivarossi cars tend to ride much better.Their interior pieces are very different too, although the IHC interiors are good they're not the same as Rivarossi. It does get rather confusing, but I think there may have been connections with AHM and Rivarossi, and maybe Rivarossi and IHC in the past, but current IHC cars aren't the same as the Rivarossi cars.

[d van]

MAN!!! Do I ever remember the old Woolco AHM train sales!! Yes....I still have my $19.99 Cab Forward...and it runs fine to this day...gotta be the buy of a life time! Woolco would even run a half page ad in the local newspaper for just the trains. If I could go back now and have more to spend than the small amount I had as a young poor teen!!

[Texas Chief]

I guess I'll put my 2 cents in, for what it's worth. As I understand it, AHM stood for Associated Hobby Models and they were a large importer of model railroad equiptment. In the early to mid 60's, they contracted Rivarossi to build model engines for them with the AHM logo, and later with Rivarossi's own logo. When AHM went belly up, I think the ball was picked up by Model Expo Hobbies, but was short lived, primarily, I think, because they refused to import parts for the engines, thereby leaving the modeler high and dry when thier engine broke down. After that, Rivarossi was off the market for 1 or 2 years and then was picked up by IHC, who, like Model Expo, didn't import parts. They did , however, contract Rivarossi to make passenger cars under the IHC logo. After IHC dropped Rivarossi, it would appear that they contracted someone else to make thier cars, using the same molds. This is probably why the IHC cars look so much like Rivarossi's. After that, they were picked up by Walthers, and you know the rest of the story.

Dick

Texas Chief

 

[SteamFreak]

In the early 70's my Dad used to take me to Two Guys the day after Christmas, when all of their train stuff was drastically marked down. Big Boys for $19.99 - talk about being a kid in a candy store!

[Cox 47]

Yes Woolco was from Woolworth "dime" stores and many of the larger Woolworth's had trains..every year at Christmas time they would have one of the larger steam engines for 19.95....I remeber one year they offered the cab forward at that price!...Cox 47

[jecorbett]

I've enjoyed this thread because I've never fully understood the AHM/IHC?Rivarossi connection. Whey I got involved in the hobby in the late 1970s AHM was a name I was very familiar with. What I later learned were Rivarossi locomotives were sold under the AHM name. The now defunct Woolco stores carried a big line of AHM equipment. In addition to the locos, they carried both freight and passenger cars and some structure kits. Sometime in the early 1980s, began seeing the same stuff sold under the IHC brand and I figured it was either a name change or a buyout. A few years later, I began seeing the Rivarossi locos and passenger cars being sold under their own name in red boxes. I didn't know what became of IHC. After taking a hiatus from the hobby for most of the 1990s, I began seeing ads for IHC again and a lot of the stuff in the adds looked very much like the Rivarossi stuff they used to sell, but somebody on this forum told me it was inferior in quality. I haven't bought any Rivarossi or IHC brand equipment since the early 1990s so I really can't compare today's equipment to what used to be sold.

[SteamFreak]

Rivarossi must have sold some tooling to Mehano at some point, because they ceased production on their GG1, Dockside, and 1890's locos, which were given new motors and gearing and marketed by IHC.

Mehano probably did get the old-time 4-4-0s from Rivarossi, but the Mehano GG-1 and Dockside are actually from Pemco. The Pemco models look very much like the Rivarossis, because they had a habit of copying other manufacturer's work and then very slightly modifying them to make them their own (the F40 was a near exact copy of the LL model). The only original models were the 2-6-0 and 4-8-2.

http://tycotrain.tripod.com/pemcorailwaysystem/

I've worked in the toy industry and know firsthand that product copying does go on, but two things make me suspect that the molds were passed along and modified.

1.) The inside of the GG1 shell castings, for example, are identical in the Rivarossi and Mehano versions, save for the size of the pantograph mounting screws, just like Mehano's modifications to the 4-4-0 tender truck screws.

2.) All of them disappeared form the Rivarossi roster before reappearing under the Pemco name.

Then again, I have seen a few red-box Rivarossi 4-4-0's from the 90's with blackened RP25 wheels on eBay, so go figure.

Someone should come out with a tell-all history book. It has all the right ingredients for a page-turner.  

 

[Darth Santa Fe]

Rivarossi must have sold some tooling to Mehano at some point, because they ceased production on their GG1, Dockside, and 1890's locos, which were given new motors and gearing and marketed by IHC.

Mehano probably did get the old-time 4-4-0s from Rivarossi, but the Mehano GG-1 and Dockside are actually from Pemco. The Pemco models look very much like the Rivarossis, because they had a habit of copying other manufacturer's work and then very slightly modifying them to make them their own (the F40 was a near exact copy of the LL model). The only original models were the 2-6-0 and 4-8-2.

http://tycotrain.tripod.com/pemcorailwaysystem/

[SteamFreak]

The story I heard on the AHM-IHC story was that AHM was run by three people. However two of the guys started practicing what could be described as creative accounting practices that apparently involved not paying import duties. After they were arrested and and in jail, a review of the books showed the company to be insolvent and AHM was dissolved. Some how the third guy was able to pick up eneugh of the pieces and form IHC.

I do not know if there is any truth in this story at all. This was just was I was told.

James.

I believe it is true, because I've heard similar tales from my LHS and other sources. Apparently they shafted Rivarossi, which hastened their declaration of bankruptcy and subsequent bailout by the Italian government around 1980. Rivarossi must have sold some tooling to Mehano at some point, because they ceased production on their GG1, Dockside, and 1890's locos, which were given new motors and gearing and marketed by IHC. There is a discussion of Rivarossi's history in this newsgroup archive: What Really Happened To Rivarossi?

Mehano's first AHM offering was the ubiquitous C-Liner, made under license from Rivarossi starting in the 60's. Rivarossi originally manufactured them for Lionel's HO line in the late 50's, when they had a metal frame and a bakelight shell, which helps to account for the crude detail.

If you needed any further proof that the collectibles market is insane, particularly in regards to anything with "Lionel" scrawled on it, a pair of RRossi dummy C-Liners in their original Lionel boxes went for nearly $1K in a recent auction.

 

[Master of Big Sky Blue]

The story I heard on the AHM-IHC story was that AHM was run by three people. However two of the guys started practicing what could be described as creative accounting practices that apparently involved not paying import duties. After they were arrested and and in jail, a review of the books showed the company to be insolvent and AHM was dissolved. Some how the third guy was able to pick up eneugh of the pieces and form IHC.

I do not know if there is any truth in this story at all. This was just was I was told.

James.

[simon1966]

Just to clarify a point made earlier in the thread, Rivarossi is now a wholly owned subsidiary of Hornby.  They still have offices in Italy but the models, as are the Hornby UK models, are made in China.  Hornby also owns Lima and other brands.  See the following link for some of the details.  http://www.hornbyinternational.com/index.aspx

[Darth Santa Fe]

From what I've read and seen, AHM imported mainly Rivarossi products from the early 60s until 1980. During that time, they also sold some brass stuff, and occasionally had a product from another manufacturer (like Kader/Bachmann). They switched from Rivarossi to Mehano in 1980, probably due to the sudden price increase in Rivarossi products (nearly 200% on some things!). They went bankrupt in the mid-late 80s, so the owner started IHC right afterward, importing both Rivarossi and Mehano products. At this point, they only carry Mehano products.

[don7]

For what it is worth. When in Canada

I remember buying Riverossi engines in the early 70's and they came in the heavy red plastic boxes with the plastic inserts.

You could also buy what appeared to be the identical engines in the AHM blue and yellow cardboard boxes.

It appeared the LHS could order either product,  I thought that AHM had the exclusive US import rights and that was why in Canada we had both available.