Virginian, I think you illustrate the problem well. In fact it is even harder to get right. How many to make total? What road names to make? What break down between DC, DCC, sound? One model project might have a dozen or so variations. What I said was that in "an ideal world" this would be simple, but it is not.
I think that what has caused the problem for many is the apparent rapid swing of the pendulum from seemingly over production followed by fire-sale, to very cautious pre-order only.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
AggroJones wrote: http://precisioncraftmodels.com/PCM---SP-Cab-Forward-AC-12-4-8-8-2,-HO-c3146.htmlOUCH! Check out the meter! This kinda really blows. But I still refuse to preorder anything. Gotta see it before making the decision to purchase. Learned my lesson from preordering Broadway's SF 3751. Chea...they ship me a gray locomotive with 3 air pumps. I may just have to get the Intermoutain AC-12 and swap out the motor with a faster one.
http://precisioncraftmodels.com/PCM---SP-Cab-Forward-AC-12-4-8-8-2,-HO-c3146.html
OUCH! Check out the meter! This kinda really blows. But I still refuse to preorder anything. Gotta see it before making the decision to purchase. Learned my lesson from preordering Broadway's SF 3751. Chea...they ship me a gray locomotive with 3 air pumps.
I may just have to get the Intermoutain AC-12 and swap out the motor with a faster one.
Aggro--
I would pre-order a loco if the mfgr would show me a photograph of the MODEL, but never if all they can do is offer a photo of the prototype. And quite frankly, I think that considering PCM?BLI's track record the past couple of years, it's going to be a long, LONG time before we see the model.
Maybe Intermountain's second run of the AC-12 will end up having the speed and pulling power the loco's supposed to. We can hope.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I understand the pain of preordering from PCM. When they announced the H2a hoppers in N Scale, I preordered all 8 sets of N&W. I based my purchase decision on the website photos of the model. This represented a commitment to over $1000.00. My financial philosophy is to have the money in the bank when the preorder is made. I do not prepay, but always have the cash on hand for the transaction. When the company changed their excuse for not producing the model for the third time over several years; I gave up on them as it was apparent to me that they were expecting me to turn a blind eye to the excuses. I noticed that the 'orderometer' is not present on the H2a page and the the delivery page still shows them a "TBD" as of this post. I hope that they do eventualy make the H2a hoppers as they are very nice models, if the photos accurately represent them. I would even consider reordering those sets, if PCM could convince me that they were going to be made.
Those 48 cars would have went a long way towards builing my dream drag of a class Y and class A pulling 100 33' hoppers with another class Y pushing.
The $1000.00 that I set aside for the PCM hoppers was well spent on a Benchmark Yellowstone in DMIR paint. It's not vaporware, but I think that PBL overestimated the demand for this item. Their website describes the production run as 25 or less units in each road number. Most are still available and I strongly recommend them to anyone with broad curves. I have also found 25 MTL hoppers of various eastern road names.
My next preorder (going in this weekend) will be for both LifeLike N&W DCC Y3's and both NKP 0-8-0 switchers, along with 30 or 40 Atlas black dimi data 33' hoppers. I have reasonable assurance that these will be made on time or without any unreasonable delays. I'm holding out for another run of peaked end hoppers in dimi data to complete my drag. I'm also hoping for an N Scale class A.
My last preorder was for the Athearn CRR Challenger. It was delayed for a while. The excuse of quality control was reasonable and believable. The quality of the product justified the delay. I have the second CRR Challenger on preorder too. Athearn was very up front on the production status. They posted updates on their website as the status changed. Not knowing the production numbers for the first run, I would have to guess that they under estimated the demand, as the second run was announced very quickly.
An example of a company that is able to guage their market pretty well is Kato. They are on the third run of the CZ. They have a policy of not announcing until the product is on the boat. All of the products that I have gotten from them are pretty scarce on the hobby shop shelves, but still available online for a few weeks after they arrive.
I hope that PCM turns the corner and are able to better communicate with their customers. It would be nice to see the number of preorders still needed instead of the orderometer.
navygunner, Your budget is way larger than mine. However I recall in the past when I order something I usually have the funds ready, pre-paid or arranged to make the purchase happen once the model did arrive. Nothing pleases me as a customer to actually take home something that was ordered and produced in good time.
When I heard about the PCM 2-10-0 I was overjoyed but disappointed because they need to have the much bigger tender than the small ones did in the orginal announcement. I emailed PCM and was given a positive response but no commitment. Eventually recently I was to learn about the new large tenders that will be produced with the engine.. excellent NEWS! One of these is on order. I might get two. But first things first.
Now. The B&O Pacific. I would love to have one of these but if you had a place on the PCM website that showed a number of pre-orders needed remaining before they commit to production, you probably will learn pretty precisely what number of units will be made in a production run.
Other companies, if they move fast enough can generate a B&O Pacific in direct challenge to PCM and ultimately the modelers like me will spend our money on the best unit availible. I could always go back to the generic IHC pacific but it wont be the same.
No. I say there is a market in the hobby for everything. Just might not be in numbers that might be desireable for a great deal of profitability sought after by Companies.
Safety Valve wrote: Other companies, if they move fast enough can generate a B&O Pacific in direct challenge to PCM and ultimately the modelers like me will spend our money on the best unit availible. I could always go back to the generic IHC pacific but it wont be the same.
If memory serves me right, the P7 was one of the original locomotives PCM announced when they first formed...
"Being misunderstood is the fate of all true geniuses"
EXPERIMENTATION TO BRING INNOVATION
http://community.webshots.com/album/288541251nntnEK?start=588
twhite wrote: AggroJones wrote: http://precisioncraftmodels.com/PCM---SP-Cab-Forward-AC-12-4-8-8-2,-HO-c3146.htmlOUCH! Check out the meter! This kinda really blows. But I still refuse to preorder anything. Gotta see it before making the decision to purchase. Learned my lesson from preordering Broadway's SF 3751. Chea...they ship me a gray locomotive with 3 air pumps. I may just have to get the Intermoutain AC-12 and swap out the motor with a faster one. second run of the AC-12 will end up having the speed and pulling power the loco's supposed to. We can hope. Tom
second run of the AC-12 will end up having the speed and pulling power the loco's supposed to. We can hope.
I figure they have to.
What were they thinking? This ain't no shay! LOL
25 mph max isn't acceptable for the pennicle of the the ACs.
bpickering wrote:........If it weren't for the preorder process, my favorite game would almost-certainly be dead by now.....
ASL??
Best ever, IMHO
Sorry for off-topic kids
PFS wrote: bpickering wrote:........If it weren't for the preorder process, my favorite game would almost-certainly be dead by now.....ASL??Best ever, IMHO
Steady on guys ....
..... BLI/PCM HAVE changed the face of the hobby in the last few years. They HAVE produced some fantastic products and as such must be seen as a trustworthy company. But modern diecast patterns are very, very expensive, selling margins are low so companies can't afford to have product sat in wharehouses not selling. BLI/PCM are certainly not the only firm doing this - most brass importers and Intermountain (to name but one) are also doing it. They are probably the most open about it though (surely a good thing?)
I don't like pre-ordering very much, but when something that I want comes up I'll take the chance if the company has a reasonable track record. I did with the BLI SW7 and was not disapointed. It also depends on your hobby store when they take the money - I ordered my SW7 from Tony's Trains and they didn't charge my credit card until it shipped - I guess they took a credit line but you don't pay interest on that. Very satisfied with Tony's regularly do business with them. I guess it will be the same when I pre-order my Intermountain U-18Bs (when Intermountain ever get round to releasing a price!!!)
......
PS whoever it was who complained about gas prices, all I can say is this: don't any American complain about gas prices until they pay European gas prices (price at the pump today here is the equivalent of about $8.50 per gallon)
Midnight Railroader wrote: PFS wrote: bpickering wrote:........If it weren't for the preorder process, my favorite game would almost-certainly be dead by now.....ASL??Best ever, IMHO...except for the original SL, that is!
Exactly! I do stand corrected :)
And another thing...
I have both a NYC streamlined Hudson and an L-4 Mohawk "preordered" through Tony's Train Exchange. Both these models are listed in the PCM/BLI website as "not enough preorders" to produce...
YET there has been no announcements or advertisements in the MR press. If it had not been for some of these forum postings (thanks to T. Stage) I would never have known about these locomotives that I most certainly want and am willing to pay for.
I was one of the first in line to buy the BLI NYC Hudson 001, as most of us modellers know, the first production run may have some bugs, but BLI had a solution... just return the locomotive to us, along with $100.00 and we will send you a "new and improved" upgrade version, after I've already paid $275.00 for the first one! What a marketing ploy! THEN they come up with the QSI "upgrade" chip... ANOTHER $30, and we will let you open your tender and pry out the stock chip and you can get the performance your locomotive was designed for after you install our "new and improved" chip...
SO... how does PCM/BLI expect to get preorders when they don't even advertise their future existence? I hope GM doesn't resort to this marketing scheme for their cars!!! Send us $30,000 and someday, maybe, we might make the car you've been looking for!
Gee, I have a taste for a steak. I'll go to the grocery store, plunk down $50. and wait for the calf to be born... don't light the grill just yet!
OK, sorry... just a rant on the current state of "marketing techniques"
Not all dealers take your cash on the pre-order.
I use Jerry Britton's Merchandise Service onliner Pennsy superstore to pre-order the N scale PRR 4-8-2. Because of PCM's unreliablility, he dropped his $25 non-refundable deposit and now takes no cash till it's delivered.
Listen, I hate the PCM marketing strategy as much as all of you, but if you really want the model and you don't pre-order it, you have yourself to blame when it doesn't get made.
Find yourself a decent dealer that won't take your cash up-front.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
It should be quite clear to everyone that there is no need to put down any money to pre-order a model from BLI, PCM or anyone else for that matter. There are plenty of dealers that will accept the order and not expect a down-payment. In theory, we the modellers are not taking a risk, because, I assume if the model shows up and we don't like it, either for performance or detail reasons it can be returned. Is the LHS then stiffed, or do the BLI/PCM return policies allow "special orders" to be returned to them?
gmpullman Im going to say that the 30 dollar cost of the upgrade chip is so worth the effort. I have a dedicated thread about this and am literally waiting on the mailbox any day for the chip to arrive. I anticipate having a good running engine become even better. And poke an eye into that little peice of lawsuiting that removed or casterated some of these features in the first place.
In fact, if that engine was not to be "Upgradeable" I may have considered ordering another copy of that engine as a replacement. Or going with a different engine from another manufactor that already has the upgraded software that I crave.
I think it is QSI who is the ultimate profit taker of my 30 dollars, NOT Broadway. In fact, I think that BLI got rid of QSI because of royalties.
I would loved to have ordered the item through the hobby shops here at home but due to the speed of the internet and the accuracy of the information I chose to get the widget direct, or nearly so.
Simon1966, I say to you that there is a growing reluctance or outright refusal to stock BLI/PCM items simply because the FDT Blowout style pricing cannot be matched by the Distributors, the Hobby shop etc. It's not going to work.
Also there is a growing sense of distrbutors refusing to accept returned product and refund to the store. The store will eat the cost of storing the item on the shelf and waiting for it to sell. Sadly many savvy customers will buy a identical item off ebay, FDT or other site on the net for way less. That will break our hobby shops more than anything.
Dave Vollmer I do want the B&O Pacific from PCM. But if this engine does not enter production I will not waste my time, effort or worry about this item. If it did enter production I will certainly get a copy. But that is the key, it HAS to enter production. Or forget it. In fact.. Im considering walking totally away from the Steam Pacific entirely and settling on any number of E units that might be offered by Proto for this particular train. Worst case scenario I can sell the trainset and use the money for something else that IS availible.
Maybe a GG1 and a PRR passenger set for it to pull LOL.
PRE-ORDER or ELSE!
http://www.tonystrainexchange.com/tonystips/2007/053107.htm
Nah. Still can't do it.
I'll be just fine with my two boys.
Mastiffdog wrote: R. T. POTEET wrote: Safety Valve wrote: No. The Hobby Shop takes your order and sends it to the Distributor. Usually you pay up front and then wait a year if ever. . . . . . . . . . (In) most cases the engine arrives then you need to pay it. That is where the problem of sight-unseen orders come in. If you discover that the engine does not run or other problems it will need to go back for repairs tying up the capital.I commented to username electrolove's similiar post of a few weeks past; I ain't ever gonna put money up front in this hobby for items which may or may not show up and which may or may not be worth what I pay for it if it does show up. I am not going to pre-finance these rinky-dink outfits products as this just becomes an excuse for them to develope the attitude that they can produce substandard merchandise. They were supposed to have had adequate capital to start in business in the first place and they are supposed to maintain adequate capital to stay in business.I didn't order my wife sight-unseen and I'm sure as aitch not going to order model railroad equipment that way either!!! RT, "rinky-dink" outfits? It is those cottage industries that not only bring some nice products to our hobby, but most importantly, it is the very fabric of what built commerce in our great country. There were these two guys name Dave and Bill who started a "Rinky-Dink" business in their garage back in the 1930's - Bill Hewlitt and Dave Packard.
R. T. POTEET wrote: Safety Valve wrote: No. The Hobby Shop takes your order and sends it to the Distributor. Usually you pay up front and then wait a year if ever. . . . . . . . . . (In) most cases the engine arrives then you need to pay it. That is where the problem of sight-unseen orders come in. If you discover that the engine does not run or other problems it will need to go back for repairs tying up the capital.I commented to username electrolove's similiar post of a few weeks past; I ain't ever gonna put money up front in this hobby for items which may or may not show up and which may or may not be worth what I pay for it if it does show up. I am not going to pre-finance these rinky-dink outfits products as this just becomes an excuse for them to develope the attitude that they can produce substandard merchandise. They were supposed to have had adequate capital to start in business in the first place and they are supposed to maintain adequate capital to stay in business.I didn't order my wife sight-unseen and I'm sure as aitch not going to order model railroad equipment that way either!!!
Safety Valve wrote: No. The Hobby Shop takes your order and sends it to the Distributor. Usually you pay up front and then wait a year if ever. . . . . . . . . . (In) most cases the engine arrives then you need to pay it. That is where the problem of sight-unseen orders come in. If you discover that the engine does not run or other problems it will need to go back for repairs tying up the capital.
No. The Hobby Shop takes your order and sends it to the Distributor. Usually you pay up front and then wait a year if ever. . . . . . . . . . (In) most cases the engine arrives then you need to pay it. That is where the problem of sight-unseen orders come in. If you discover that the engine does not run or other problems it will need to go back for repairs tying up the capital.
RT, "rinky-dink" outfits? It is those cottage industries that not only bring some nice products to our hobby, but most importantly, it is the very fabric of what built commerce in our great country.
There were these two guys name Dave and Bill who started a "Rinky-Dink" business in their garage back in the 1930's - Bill Hewlitt and Dave Packard.
I see both points here, but I don't think that "Dave and Bill" would have taken preorders, say hand them a $1000.00 and wait until they finally were able to mass produce that printer, CP, etc. They needed the capital from thier investors not from future customers.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
bogp40 wrote: Mastiffdog wrote: R. T. POTEET wrote: Safety Valve wrote: No. The Hobby Shop takes your order and sends it to the Distributor. Usually you pay up front and then wait a year if ever. . . . . . . . . . (In) most cases the engine arrives then you need to pay it. That is where the problem of sight-unseen orders come in. If you discover that the engine does not run or other problems it will need to go back for repairs tying up the capital.I commented to username electrolove's similiar post of a few weeks past; I ain't ever gonna put money up front in this hobby for items which may or may not show up and which may or may not be worth what I pay for it if it does show up. I am not going to pre-finance these rinky-dink outfits products as this just becomes an excuse for them to develope the attitude that they can produce substandard merchandise. They were supposed to have had adequate capital to start in business in the first place and they are supposed to maintain adequate capital to stay in business.I didn't order my wife sight-unseen and I'm sure as aitch not going to order model railroad equipment that way either!!! RT, "rinky-dink" outfits? It is those cottage industries that not only bring some nice products to our hobby, but most importantly, it is the very fabric of what built commerce in our great country. There were these two guys name Dave and Bill who started a "Rinky-Dink" business in their garage back in the 1930's - Bill Hewlitt and Dave Packard. I see both points here, but I don't think that "Dave and Bill" would have taken preorders, say hand them a $1000.00 and wait until they finally were able to mass produce that printer, CP, etc. They needed the capital from thier investors not from future customers.
No.
PCM Established themselves soon after BLI set up. FDT came along very soon after. This is not some garage outfit trying to produce an engine.
Regarding the capital, some of that should come out of previously sold inventory. If that is not happening then they must either be selling the items at a loss or pocketing all of the income without regard to future production runs.
I dont know; Im just one customer who is glad that I got what steam I did when I did because I dont think half the stuff will be availible again by BLI and associates.
Bob,I don't think BLI/PCM is paying for the tooling with pre-order cash. I have pre-ordered the BLI NH I-5, and they haven't asked for a penny.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with what BLI/PCM is doing WRT pre-orders. The brass market has been that way for years, and I haven't seen any backlash against them. What gives? So they ask you to pre-order. Big deal. As long as you can cancel it or send it back at no charge once you get it, why should it matter?
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul3 wrote: Bob,I don't think BLI/PCM is paying for the tooling with pre-order cash. I have pre-ordered the BLI NH I-5, and they haven't asked for a penny.Personally, I don't see anything wrong with what BLI/PCM is doing WRT pre-orders. The brass market has been that way for years, and I haven't seen any backlash against them. What gives? So they ask you to pre-order. Big deal. As long as you can cancel it or send it back at no charge once you get it, why should it matter?Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
It matters when the Hobby Shop cannot get them at a good price. FDT blows em out the day they get to the release with a price so low it's almost totally bypassing the Distribution/Hobby Shop system. With that going on, why bother pre-ordering? It will show up on Ebay, FDT or outlet direct at some point after release.
My two hobby shops will take my pre-order but as I stated before I prefer to buy the product that is availible and sometimes that is with someone else like Proto, Athearn or Atlas etc... they produce products "On-time" within a few weeks of thier announcement ETA without fanfare. I dont see these other manufactors issuing meters to count pre-orders to a pre-determined Minimum number needed to produce the durn thing.
Safety Valve,The hobby shops cannot get them at a good price? I believe they are a so-called "short discount" but BLI isn't the only one doing that. Are you going to go after all manufacturers that offer short discounts?
I don't think that FDT is "blowing them out" the day they are released. FDT has been selling refurbs and older "brand new" items that BLI/PCM is trying to get rid of. But blowing out just-released items? I haven't seen it. And FDT isn't the only one "blowing out" items. All those mailorder houses in the magazines have had excess stock blow outs for decades. P2K especially.
As to why pre-order with FDT around... I think the question is this: Do you want the item at the price they list it at? If the answer is yes, then order & buy it. If not, don't buy it. If you still want it but only at a lower price, take your chance with eBay, FDT, train shows, and yard sales. You may get lucky, you may not. But why complain? You know if you don't pre-order, you have no guarantee that you are getting it. What's the big deal?
I think we all prefer to buy things that we can see, and a good hobby shop will allow you to do so (IOW, allow returns at no charge). But as for Atlas or Athearn, etc....They, too, take pre-orders.
So far, the only difference I see between Atlas or Athearn and BLI/PCM is that Atlas and Athearn will commit to a delivery date and release said item with or without any pre-orders at all (tho' they use the pre-order to determine how many to make plus a few extra). BLI/PCM, OTOH, will only make an item if they receive enough pre-orders, which makes their delivery date flexible.
But please note: neither Atlas, Athearn, or P2K have ever done a NYC Hudson, PRR K-4, NH I-5, and so on. Heck, Atlas doesn't even make steam in HO, and Athearn and P2K are pretty much making generic steam power. BLI/PCM is pretty much the only one making road specific steam locos. So I look at our options here: put up with BLI's pre-order policy, or get generic steam from someone else. I don't know about you, but I'll be taking my pre-ordered NH I-5 and will be running the wheels off it whenever it shows up.
BTW, if you want real shipping delays, try Railworks and their brass NH "Comet" train. That was a couple years late, but they did finally release it (for $1500).
Safety Valve wrote: bogp40 wrote: Mastiffdog wrote: R. T. POTEET wrote: Safety Valve wrote: No. The Hobby Shop takes your order and sends it to the Distributor. Usually you pay up front and then wait a year if ever. . . . . . . . . . (In) most cases the engine arrives then you need to pay it. That is where the problem of sight-unseen orders come in. If you discover that the engine does not run or other problems it will need to go back for repairs tying up the capital.I commented to username electrolove's similiar post of a few weeks past; I ain't ever gonna put money up front in this hobby for items which may or may not show up and which may or may not be worth what I pay for it if it does show up. I am not going to pre-finance these rinky-dink outfits products as this just becomes an excuse for them to develope the attitude that they can produce substandard merchandise. They were supposed to have had adequate capital to start in business in the first place and they are supposed to maintain adequate capital to stay in business.I didn't order my wife sight-unseen and I'm sure as aitch not going to order model railroad equipment that way either!!! RT, "rinky-dink" outfits? It is those cottage industries that not only bring some nice products to our hobby, but most importantly, it is the very fabric of what built commerce in our great country. There were these two guys name Dave and Bill who started a "Rinky-Dink" business in their garage back in the 1930's - Bill Hewlitt and Dave Packard. I see both points here, but I don't think that "Dave and Bill" would have taken preorders, say hand them a $1000.00 and wait until they finally were able to mass produce that printer, CP, etc. They needed the capital from thier investors not from future customers.No.PCM Established themselves soon after BLI set up. FDT came along very soon after. This is not some garage outfit trying to produce an engine.Regarding the capital, some of that should come out of previously sold inventory. If that is not happening then they must either be selling the items at a loss or pocketing all of the income without regard to future production runs.