I am switching all my couplers to a more realistic type

[BRAKIE]

The "bad experience" was a Gem 0-4-0.

And after that one experience, you never will buy another brass loco?

Man, you'd better hope you never get a lemon for a car, or you'll have to forego all cars, forever, and walk everywhere.

Sounds like he doesn't want to have a "bad experience" with what many others have had very few problems with. I've been using Kadee's for over 20 years without a problem, other than those of my own making.

 

My biggest complaint is two fold..When the spring falls off and opening a NEW pack and finding one coupler missing a spring.Mind you not in every pack but,that happens from time to time.

[WSOR 3801]

I see shelf couplers on plastic pellet covered hoppers near me all the time.

One of the big leasing outfits (I think it is UTCX) is working on putting upper and lower shelf couplers on all its cars, including plastic covered hoppers. 

 

[cjcrescent]

 

Or, paper clips.

Mantuas are not that hard to find (I find them, and install them), and they are dead reliable.

The "bad experience" was a Gem 0-4-0.

Brass PAINT on tin or whatever, held together with green industrial epoxy.

Front geared driver, frame was slotted, run it upside-down to run it in, gears come unmeshed as there was no loco weight to keep them meshed.

Not a good idea for longevity.

Then my friend, you got shafted either by the LHS, dealer or the individual who sold you this as a "brass loco". Gem models in its early days were produced by Akane. When Akanesan died they were produced by other companies. None used green epoxy or tin in their construction. From the way its been described, the only original parts would have been the frame, drivers and coverplate. It appears to have been a botched rebuild/scratch job by a not so good modeler. 

Wescott's era, wrote a page and a half commentary and sent it in.

Ignored.

Not purchased an MR since.

I to have written several articles, complete with color and B&W slides and prints, as described in the requirements for publication during that time. I even have been paid for some. Never published. Do I care. No. Water under the bridge.

MDC couplers I mentioned, and are FAR more realistic than Kadees.

I can walk into a room with a layout and immediately spot Kadee or Kadee clones in use.

Belly-button couplers.

Like going to a car show and seeing a 32 roadster with a V-8 and the distributor in the back of the engine.

Don't need to look anymore.

Just walk on by.

I've had a few of the MDC's and they were anything but reliable for the time.  They were also slightly larger than a KD #4, which was basically the coupler that started it all for KD. KD did originally have a pin based system but that was replaced by the magnetic #4, which was a BIG improvement over anything at the time.

I know I can still find mantuas now, but in the days I used them, there weren't any train shows, websites, internet dealers, swap meets, that I could go to. Only place I could go was an LHS almost 40 miles away, (only one in the state at the time), and I didn't get there but 2-3 times a year and since they weren't made any more, I had to convert or stop buying cars and locos. But I've converted all my cars, (500 originally, now down to 200 or so), to KD's and I won't go back. Spotting KD's or their clones on a layout isn't exactly a hard thing to do.

On my current railroad, every coupler on over 130 pieces of rolling stock and 15 locomotives is a functional knuckle with a drop pin.

Bags of Kadee take-offs.

If you had that many cars, locos etc, KD equipped, and decided you didn't like them, that was an expensive experiment. It would have taken me less than 5 cars to decide if I liked a coupler enough to spend more money on it. You could always send them to me!

If you're in HO, are you still using the mantuas? They too are not a true drop pin. They are a hook coupler. Closest true "drop pin" coupler I'm aware of is the Sergeant, but it uses a drop ball and not a pin.

The reason for the dcc comment is the same....."belly-button".

Everybody has one.

Then you haven't been reading the discussions recently here about that. DC is still the #1 control system in use today and will be for some time to come. Just because DCC is growing doesn't mean everybody has one.

I won't just "go along" with what someone preaches until I have checked it out, and I won't use it.

Hate to say "never", but you get the idea.

Either straight DC (first pack, if you will, was built with WWII surplus stuff...HUGE transformer, 5" plate Selenium Rectumfrier, 4" Ohmmite rheostat, B-29 toggle switches with the phoshor dots in the end, and it worked forover 30 years) or an alternative control.

With that alternative control, I can run on DC layouts, dcc layouts, wooden track, kitchen floor, and during power outtages.

And, haven't cleaned my track in over 15 years.

I don't buy anything either just because "everyone" has it. If I do buy something its because I have checked it out and it works with what I want to accomplish. This makes therefore, over 90-99% of the new products on the market either unusable or totally undesirable.

'Bout the size of my original pack! At ten years of age my dad built just about what you describe, and it really could "fry your rectum", (rectumfrier), if you touched it in the wrong place. (Ask how I know!) After that I used mostly commercial packs until conversion to DCC.

Your alternative control is batteries and I do believe that that is the "vision" of the future. Only thing keeping this from HO and smaller is technological limitations. I also think that withun the next 10 years it will be available at a reasonable cost. When you don't have to rely on a wheel to rail contact for power, track cleanliness becomes mute. 

I have really enjoyed this discussion so far and it has been real fun talking with you about this. I really enjoy a give and take discussion like this, as from it everyone can maybe learn, get ideas and at the very least, give them something to think about.

If it continues I hope that we can stay as cordial as we are now, and not let it descend into a name calling locked topic.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Not one experience, but that was the first.

It was IN a hobby shop, and I was asked to repair it. And, it was, in fact, GEM, new in the box with the valve gear off one side.

Green epoxy. Brass painted tin or shet metal of some sort.

Bottom line, theorums and postulates. You can say never, and have a million examples, I can say one, and it trumps your millions.

 

Seen far too many brass engines, brand new, sent off to have functional drive trains installed.

You are probably too young to remember brass collections. On shelves, behind glass, because that's all you could do with them.

 

The Kadee's get pitched.

Reason I waited to post, we researched the "lincoln's Pins" hogwash thouroughly.

My early days in the hobby, and all these decades later, one would have thought some name like that would have stuck.

All the other old geezers said the same.

 

So, I waited for the expert with the database to get off vacation (this morning).

Kalmbach files, and all who have been at Kalmback for-ever, it seems, no such thing.

You got caught in the same mis-spelling repetition even writers did.

There was a name used in a column years ago, either AC Kalmbach or Linn Wescott, called "Lincoln Pinn's" comments.

I am in the hobby to run trains, have fun, and not just go along with the "common wisdom" because everybody says it's right.

I reuse to have one software-operated piece of garbage controlling my equipment, that I have to program and carry cheat sheets around with me to remember to double-flash F-8 or whatever.

If the comments on historical brass are what you folks believe, hey, go to e-bay. I'm sure someone there will take your money.

One of the reasons NWSL stayed around as long as they did, repowering brass junk drivetrains.

I've worked on countless brass engines, repowered more than I want to recall.

I've seen (even recently) brass engines with handrails stub-soldered, then painted.

Blow on them, they fall off.

Try to fix that without damaging the paint!

Some of you folks are absolutely clueless. But, that's okay, as the manufacturer's need gullible consumers to buy their stuff.

The absolutely funniest part is the kid who comes on forums with "I've got a 4X8 sheet with a single loop and 2 locomotives. What DCC system should I buy?"

None. You don't need one, if it's your first foray into model railroading, you need to learn some basics about track laying, cleaning, locomotive maintenance, before you start putting dcc in 2 locomotives and one loop of track with 4 pieces of rolling stock.

 

[Tilden]

Cur-mud-geon:  a crusty, ill tempered, and usu. old man...

 I think the name covers it all.

Tilden

[jasperofzeal]

Not one experience, but that was the first.

It was IN a hobby shop, and I was asked to repair it. And, it was, in fact, GEM, new in the box with the valve gear off one side.

Green epoxy. Brass painted tin or shet metal of some sort.

Bottom line, theorums and postulates. You can say never, and have a million examples, I can say one, and it trumps your millions.

 

Seen far too many brass engines, brand new, sent off to have functional drive trains installed.

You are probably too young to remember brass collections. On shelves, behind glass, because that's all you could do with them.

 

The Kadee's get pitched.

Reason I waited to post, we researched the "lincoln's Pins" hogwash thouroughly.

My early days in the hobby, and all these decades later, one would have thought some name like that would have stuck.

All the other old geezers said the same.

 

So, I waited for the expert with the database to get off vacation (this morning).

Kalmbach files, and all who have been at Kalmback for-ever, it seems, no such thing.

You got caught in the same mis-spelling repetition even writers did.

There was a name used in a column years ago, either AC Kalmbach or Linn Wescott, called "Lincoln Pinn's" comments.

I am in the hobby to run trains, have fun, and not just go along with the "common wisdom" because everybody says it's right.

I reuse to have one software-operated piece of garbage controlling my equipment, that I have to program and carry cheat sheets around with me to remember to double-flash F-8 or whatever.

If the comments on historical brass are what you folks believe, hey, go to e-bay. I'm sure someone there will take your money.

One of the reasons NWSL stayed around as long as they did, repowering brass junk drivetrains.

I've worked on countless brass engines, repowered more than I want to recall.

I've seen (even recently) brass engines with handrails stub-soldered, then painted.

Blow on them, they fall off.

Try to fix that without damaging the paint!

Some of you folks are absolutely clueless. But, that's okay, as the manufacturer's need gullible consumers to buy their stuff.

The absolutely funniest part is the kid who comes on forums with "I've got a 4X8 sheet with a single loop and 2 locomotives. What DCC system should I buy?"

None. You don't need one, if it's your first foray into model railroading, you need to learn some basics about track laying, cleaning, locomotive maintenance, before you start putting dcc in 2 locomotives and one loop of track with 4 pieces of rolling stock.

 

Out of all the words you've written, the ones I highlighted are probably the only ones that should matter to any of us modelers.  It sounds like you have a huge chip on your shoulder, whatever it is, you might want to consider counseling to get yourself through your tough times.  We don't have to like everything that is available in this hobby.  Some will like things, others wont, but in the long run who cares.  As long as we're enjoying ourselves, that should be enough.  So what if you don't like Kadees, I don't think any less of you, but I would hope you don't think any less of me just because I happen to think that they are reliable.  As far as prototypical goes, not much in this hobby is, no matter how hard we try.  Like I said, we should just enjoy the hobby for what it is.  And as far as your last comment about the 4x8, now you and I see eye to eye on that scenario.

[Midnight Railroader]

I am in the hobby to run trains, have fun, and not just go along with the "common wisdom" because everybody says it's right.

Or even if it is right, apparently. I admire your stubborness, even if it is entirely illogical.

As I said, by your expressed standard, if you ever get one lemon car, you'll have to stop driving altogether.

[Dave Vollmer]

I reuse to have one software-operated piece of garbage controlling my equipment, that I have to program and carry cheat sheets around with me to remember to double-flash F-8 or whatever.

I believe the NMRA standard for DCC function "double-flash F-8" causes the operator to quit being so condescending toward the rest of the modelers here.

Maybe you should try DCC after all!

My 2-year old son can operate a train with my Digitrax UT4 throttle and my 4-year old can actually manipulate two trains at once (including switching with one of them) using my Digitrax DT400.

Surely you're more capable of learning than my toddlers...  right?

[Curmudgeon]

Tried it.

Am fluent in normal useage thereof, and since I do have experience, what makes my opinion less valid than yours?

 

 

On GEM.

I knew some, wanted to check with "the source", who was a personal friend of Methuselah.

GEM was Korean. They basically perfected the sub-contract building of models.

Families would bid, sometimes getting motors, gears and drivers from GEM and build maybe 200 units.

GEM was about the bottom of the pile. This MR Staffer used to do custom painting. On GEM models, often he would strip the BRASS paint off and find "Shell Oil" underneath.

Boilers could be old pieces of copper pipe, 20MM shell casings, sheet metal, tin, and assembly often was anything but quality solder.

Akan-e was well into the upper half of the pile, and Japanese.

The assertion that GEM made Akan-e or Akan-e made stuff for GEM is not backed up with any factual data.

Akan-e would NEVER put their quality name on a GEM product, and price-wise, GEM could not afford to buy Akan-e and re-badge it, and sell it cheap.

So, with data and records available going back to Methuselah, the "Lincoln's Pins" and "GEM" quality have been refuted.

Of course, if you have printed data to say it was different, okay, post it.

 

Now, what else?

Remember, one of the tenets of algore's internet is that you can put any ........thing you want out there, and some folks think that by repeating it many times (like chanting a Mantra) it will suddenly become fact.

 

[Dave Vollmer]

Tried it.

Am fluent in normal useage thereof, and since I do have experience, what makes my opinion less valid than yours?

Nothing.  I'm not questioning the validity of your opinion.  But your past several posts insinuate 2 things that I vehemently disagree with:

1.  You imply that those of us who bought DCC are gullible idiots.

2.  DCC is just too complicated (double-flash F-8?  Cheat sheets?).

I disagree with both.  Granted, if you're trying to access 20-some-odd sound functions or want to change speed configurations and all that, yes, you probably do need a cheat sheet.  But you can't do that in DC anyway, so why would you need to in DCC if you don't want to?

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

Concerning Curmudgeon's relationship to brass I have another idea: is it possible that you have extremely bad eyes and or fat/untalented fingers combined with no knowledge how to handle brass models properly? Please don't be too offended by that, but since you stated the only thing one can do with brass is placeing in showcases led me to that assumption. I have more than 30 brass locos, both old and new, cheap and expensive, Japanese and Korean, and after some tweaking/ serviceing they run very nice! I run them day in and day out! Others, too! Oh yes - that requires a little care and knowledge in handling...

[Midnight Railroader]

Remember, one of the tenets of algore's internet is that you can put any ........thing you want out there, and some folks think that by repeating it many times (like chanting a Mantra) it will suddenly become fact.

I see that--you're doing your best to demonstrate the concept.

[LD357]

Back on the subject of chuck changing all his rolling stock to prototype couplers......he's going to have a hard time with all that TYCO stuff he has,11yr olds don't usually have the experience to rebuild one of the TYCO offerings to accept knuckle couplers.

  

[loathar]

UPCHUCK did his job. He started a flame war and moved on. That's all he does. He really doesn't care about trains.

[cjcrescent]

 http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/L_P1.jpg

Thought yall might be interested in this. Wasn't sure I could direct link it as a jpg. Sorry its a little OOF.

Gem was one of the original importers of Akane, along with Akane itself, Fuji, and Olympic. Akane was imported by as many as 4 importers at a time. 

Sorry, I stand by what I said, many of Gem's early locos were from Akane. I've had too many in my hand, putting new motors in them. I worked at a hobbyshop as the brass repair man/painter for almost 30 years. Never have had to replace that gear set that was in any Akane. If the gears from Akane were used in the other brass imports, I believe NWSL would have been OOB a long time ago. Gem's engines after Akanesan's death were also from Max Gray's old importer, KTM, after MG's death. (Or KMT. I always get those two mixed up. One was good and the other wasn't as good. Both their motors were lousy.) Then they came from the other. Gem never had a "wide" selection of locos available at a time and while their quality was hit or miss with their later locos, there never was one to cross my hands made out of anything but brass. 

The latest ad I could locate for Gem was in a 1977 MR. There may have been later ones, but I can only say by 1980 they were not advertising in MR and I've never found an ad for them in any of my RMC's of the same period. Either way, Gem was from Japan. They were importing from the early 1960's to around 1980. They were gone, for all intents, by the collapse of the Japanese brass makers in the 80's. The Korean brass makers were never more than a minor factor in Gem's imports. 

The last two imports by Gem, that I saw new, were two diesels in 1979 and I'm not sure thats their year of production. One was a F-9 and the other was a GP-40. Both had the old Bachmann 8-wheel drive mechanisms that Bachmann used prior to their pancake motors. These mechs also appeared for a time in the old AHM FT units.

[cjcrescent]

Concerning Curmudgeon's relationship to brass I have another idea: is it possible that you have extremely bad eyes and or fat/untalented fingers combined with no knowledge how to handle brass models properly? Please don't be too offended by that, but since you stated the only thing one can do with brass is placeing in showcases led me to that assumption. I have more than 30 brass locos, both old and new, cheap and expensive, Japanese and Korean, and after some tweaking/ serviceing they run very nice! I run them day in and day out! Others, too! Oh yes - that requires a little care and knowledge in handling...

I see that there are many contradictions in his comments. He's must have realized it too, because of the insults to everyone who doesn't agree with him.

[AggroJones]

Wow. I think I learned alot reading this thread.

[Teditor]

Uhmmmm!

What was the question?

Teditor