Final DCC question Honest, well I think.

[cudaken]

 Main thing that has keept me from going Digitrax or any other DCC system is the lack of F buttons. I have BLI's, PK's and a Genesis Big Boy that will go to F-28?

 Now I really don't need to hear the crapper flush, engineer fart and driver bolt fall off. Hum, OK I need to hear the driver bolt falling off.

 I am going to use my Genesis Big Boy as a example. F-23 is chuff type, F-20 is Bell rate, F-12 is master volume, F-22 is Whistle volume. All would be handy to control right?

 If I go with a Zepher, F buttons only go to 8. Or could I control the higher F fuctions with CV's? My LHS owners is very weak when it comes to DCC questions, tells me to ask other club members when it comes to DCC. Problem up to last week I worked on club night.

 I don't want to spark a DCC war on which is best.

 I curnetly only have a Bachmann E-Z. 

 On a side note, some idot bank sent me a new credit card, Humm Super Cheif with Radio maybe?

                 Cuda Ken

[selector]

Too bad you couldn't try out all 28 functions to see what they offer you, Ken.  It would be useful to find someone with a system that can effect them for you.

However, I find that the engines all make random noises that fill the layout space quite nicely, thanks very much.  If I want a horn, F2.  Oops, I meant the bell, F1.  Coupler crash, or disconnect, F3.  On a Tsunami, tender water tank top-up, F6.  Steam hiss, F4, Lights on/off, F0, Brake or flange squeel on a QSI, F7.  Have we gotten up to F8 yet...yeah, that shuts off the sound.  It mutes the system.  On QSI, F8 mutes it to a setting that you can select, whether full volume off (silent except gear and motor noises in the works under the shell), or you can select all the way up to 50% volume if you really want to "mute" it.

Long way of saying I can't see you ever using much past F8 except when all your friends leave at the end of an ops session, and F21 is a voice that says "Kewl!"  I could do without it, personally.

BTW, I use the old SEB from Digitrax, and it comes with the super-duper DT400 throttle that offers F capability up to 12.  You can get the sound of a firebox door opening and some other odd sounds so important that I can't remember what they are.   But bestest of all, that throttle comes with twin encoder throttle knobs that work as soon as you click-press them or as soon as you spin them to dial down or dial up speed to the engine linked to that throttle knob.  It is so easy to run two trains simultaneously it isn't even funny.

So, I encourage you to have a close look at the Zephyr if a DT 400 comes with it, or use that shiny new plastic for a Radio Chief.  In fairness, Tom is an ardent fan of the Prodigy Advanced (I hope I have that right), and would be a strong voice in support of that system.

[tstage]

Crandell,

I trust you are talking about a "different" Tom.

Prodigy Advance?  Bite your tongue!

Signed,

Power Cab in Cleveland

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P.S.  Okay.  Before all you MRC PA users start jumping down my throat screaming "What's wrong with the Prodigy Advance system?!?"  Nothing.  I'm just giving Crandell a friendly and much deserved hard time.

[tstage]

Ken,

I have to agree with Crandell.  As I've said before, F0-F8 (F9, if you plan on shutting down your locos) will be the functions that you use (and remember) the most.  I would concentrate on the DCC system that will best fit your other needs (DC option, computer interface, radio upgrade, etc.) rather than the number of functions you want to have immediate access to.

With that said, doesn't Digitrax have plans to upgrade their DCC systems to 28 functions this year sometime?  Does that include the Zephyr?

Tom

[selector]

Crandell,

I trust you are talking about a "different" Tom.

Prodigy Advance?  Bite your tongue!

Signed,

Power Cab in Cleveland

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P.S.  Okay.  Before all you MRC PA users start jumping down my throat screaming "What's wrong with the Prodigy Advance system?!?"  Nothing.  I'm just giving Crandell a friendly and much deserved hard time.

Dang!

[sledgehammer]

  Does the new chip upgrade for the NCE go to F28

I got a card yesterday and it say F0 to 28 active.

 

[CSX Robert]

I can't tell you which system you should get, but I can tell you my experience. I have the Digitrax Zephyr and an Athearn N-Scale Challenger. On the Challenger, all of the functions that adjust sounds(chuff type, bell ring rate, volume settings, etc.) are accessible through CV's. The sounds can not be activated through CV's, but many of them activate randomly or in response to what the locomotive is doing and it does not bother me at all not having access to the higher functions. When operating the locomotive, I rarely control anything other than the bell and whistle. If you do go with the Zephyr, you can control up through function 12 if you get a DT400 or a UT4 or if you use the JMRI software throttle.

[simon1966]

Hi Ken,

The dilemma that you are facing is a very real one that faces the world of DCC right now.  Take the 3 examples that you have given.  All 3 are sounds that any owner would want to set and control, but surely these would be things that one sets up once for the loco, get them the way you want and then leave them that way.  With most sound decoders you have access to adjust through CV programming for many functions that are not assigned to function keys.  Think of all the lighting effects, momentum effects, individual sound volumes that are controlled via CV's and not assigned function keys.  So the point is that just because you don't have and F key assigned does not mean you don't have access to adjusting these functions.  We certainly don't want F kays to adjust all features controlled by CV's.  At some point there is a balance.

The dilemma DCC faces, is when does adding more F keys simply add to the complexity of operation while not really adding to operational benefit?  Do you really want a throttle with a bank of 28 buttons for F keys?  Do you want to have to press a shift key to toggle through banks of functions to access higher F values?  The DCC manufacturers have got to figure out how to balance features with function and this is no easy task.

If you really want to get a DCC system that has access up to F28 then there are 2, by all accounts decent choices out there.  The Prodigy Advance 2 (squared) and the NCE Powercab with the latest upgrades.  In an e-mail from Digitrax I was told that they would support up to F28 in 2007.  I have not idea how.

My layout uses a Zephyr with a DT400 connected so bring your Big Boy round to play one day so you can see what can and can't be adjusted via CV's and we can see what you would really be missing with only up to F12.  Also, just for kicks, write an e-mail to Digitrax, tell them you are about to make a purchase decision and that F28 is important to you.  It would be interesting to see what response you get.

[jktrains]

Access to F0-F28 is available on Prodigy Advance and NCE systems, both PowerhousePro and PowerCab systems, with the latetst upgrade.  I just got my upgrade chip from NCE for my PHP.  Mailed the check on 4/9/07 and received the chip on 4/13/07.  What a turnaround!

IMO, the ease and ability to upgrade a NCE system is one of the real advantages to their systems.  Their latest upgrade includes more than just access to functions through F28.  Upgrades are issued every now and then to take advantage of technology advances, fix bugs, and for changes in software.  Replacing the chip takes less than 10 minutes.

As Simon points out, Digitrax may have announced that they will support F0-F28, but they don't say how.  Will it only be in newly manufactured systems?  Will you be required to send your command station in for the upgrade?  All things to consider when evaluating systems for purchase.

[tstage]

Access to F0-F28 is available on Prodigy Advance and NCE systems, both PowerhousePro and PowerCab systems, with the latetst upgrade.  I just got my upgrade chip from NCE for my PHP.  Mailed the check on 4/9/07 and received the chip on 4/13/07.  What a turnaround!

JK,

Are you sure the NCE upgrade is for both the PH Pro and the Power Cab?  My understand is that it's only for the PH Pro.  Some of the upgrades that are now available for the PH Pro are available for the Power Cab but via the Smart Booster.  (F0-F28, in particular.)

Tom

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UPDATE: I just checked the NCE web site.  The upgrade IS for both the PH Pro and Power Cab systems.

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NOTE: The Smart Booster does upgrade the earlier Power Cab software OS version (1.1) to the newest OS version (1.28).

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[Driline]

What idiot is going to stand there and play with 28 sound buttons? (I'm not pointing fingers cudaken)

My NCE powercab has 12 that I know of and I get lost after 6 buttons.

I'm too busy switching turnouts and making sure my trains don't crash into eachother.

[Anonymous]

I dont worry about anything beond function 12.

I am wading through all the different options availible via CV on the newer engines.

I use the Super Chief and the DT400 throttle for me is effortless in consisting or two trains. The real problem is keeping track of the switches before you get to them and running the train itself.

I have seen people start a train running and turn away from it telling a frankenstory while the unwatched train gets into trouble.

[rrinker]

 Personally I think it's all overkill. How many things do you REALLY need to control? Whistle, Bell, lights? Coupler crash? Brake squeal?  Still less than 8....  The volume change on function keys is kind of pointless, once you set the volume to something you like, are you REALLY going to need to adjust it SO often that you need an F key for it? All that's REALLY needed is a mute key. Add to the others so far, that's STILL less than 8. ALl the other stuff is more toylike than anything - verbal speed readout? Ok it's cool to try once or twice. The extras on the MTH K4 are REALLY silly - train wreck? The platform call is goofy as well - I've seen it under control of DCS at the LHS so all functions were accessible. It keeps coming back to what you actually NEED to have under live control.

 

                                           --Randy

[loathar]

Can't help with the DCC but, Cut the freaking credit card up! You don't need to finance your hobby and make a bank rich. Save up your own money. IT won't charge you interest.

[john galt]

if the credit card offers an intro rate and you can afford it use their money...just dont let them use yours.   i have digitrax ( the books say genisis, empire builder and chief II..still unsure what the diffetrence is)and still trying to get f9 so i can turn off an engine.  if you compare trade offs...running mutilpe engines when you want and where you want on your track as opposed to...NOT  dcc is the only way to play

 

in memory of taggart transcontinental and dagny

who is john galt?

[cudaken]

CSX Robert gave me the answer I was looking for I think. Friend of mine owns a Mopar Site and he complains that new people miss post questions in the wrong section all the time. I asked him why don't you make them read instructions before they become a member? His answer was "Ken, it is the internet no one reads just clicks". Seem he was right and sure hope you kind folks think don't I am bashing you.

 I dont need 28 F buttons and dont want them either. I just want to be able to change the bell type, chuff rate, master volume, chuff type etc. Not while the engine is running, but change the sounds to what I like then run it.

 Simmon E-mail me your address so I can do a Map Quest to see how far you are from me. Thursday is Ops night at K-10 Trains so maybe we can meet there as well.

 On the Big Boy sound again, only thing I don't like is the Chuff sound it make's out of the box. My BLI sound much better as far as quality. But I hope to see if there is a better sound yet to be unlocked with CV's.

 On my E-Z F-6 I can turn off the Chuff's and make rolling stock clicked clack sounds either very deep pitch sounds or higher pitch clicked clack sounds. F-7 is the fire box sound, 10 times then a steam burst, then bell, conducter yells All Aboard, then whistel and pull a drag.

                         Cuda Ken

[Anonymous]

Internet Attention span is something I consider very short with people online. Im talking about everyone in general on the net, not just the train folks.

We can sit in the hobby shop store and go over the fine points of a Caboose Hobbies ground throw to the Nth degree because I think everyone enjoys that sort of thing.

But should someone post a 1000 paragraph article in a forum about that ground throw, eyes roll and crystillaze (Spelling) and there are very few responses.

The thinking also leads me to think that traditional 2 hour lecture classes by tenured professors in college is now obselete because we have successfully raised a new generation of instant results children. They want things to click fast.

[NeO6874]

hey now...

 

I'm about to start sitting through one of those hour long lecture classes, which I happen to like quite a bit.  Granted it's on a topic that I find enjoyable (it's one of my Computer Science classes), but there are other less enjoyable topic lecture classes I still go to... 

While I might like instant results sometimes, I've found that fiddling with a loco to make it run better, or isolate the motor, or something to be quite enjoyable (moreso than the instant result things).

[CSX Robert]

I thought I would add a correction and an update to my previous post. I got a chance to play with my Challenger using JMRI(I had used JMRI before, but this was the first time I used it with my Challenger). For some reason, functions 9-12 on the throttle in JMRI do not work with the Zephyr. The good news is, using the send DCC packet function in JMRI, not only could I control functions 9-12, but also functions 13-28. Some day I will probably write a script to make it easier to send the function commands(currently,I have to calculate the hex values of the address and functions).

I was perfectly happy with the Challenger only having access to functions 0-8(I do not have a DT400 or UT4 yet), but it is comforting to know that if I get an engine where I really want access to one of the upper functions for some reason, I can access it with my Zephyr and JMRI.