We have discovered the enemy and he is us. Another MR magazine ceases publication.

[nucat78]

Even paper money is becoming obsolete.

And the credit card companies are pushing as hard as they can to make it obsolete, viz: the ad where a fast food joint is humming along until a guy pulls out cash and the whole thing crashes.  They're trying to make people feel *guilty* for using cash.

 

 

[steamnut]

I personally believe that the Internet has little to nothing to do with the demise of Model Railroading. Its readership was never high enough to be sustainable in the long run and, as others have pointed out, the reasons are unreliability and not printing the types of articles (or at least enough of them) most model rails want to read. Certainly that was my opinion from the couple of issues I purchased over the years and several others that I browsed in the LHS.

I'll also comment that market studies indicate that hobby / special interest magazines generally appear to be much less at risk from the Internet than news / general interest magazines.

[One Track Mind]

Maybe I'm naive...but may I point out that one thing MR has over the internet is that it has been a trusted source of reliable information since 1934?

Any yahoo with half a brain can post something on the internet. Are we to assume he/she knows what they are talking about?

When I tell someone about a far-out post I read on the 'net, someone is always there to point out "well you don't believe everything you read on the internet, do you?"

I know the same thing has been said about traditional print media, but I would still trust what I read in a well established magazine...they have a reputation on the line, a lot of folks posting on the internet do not.

[TrainFreak409]

I like my paper copies of Model Railroader.

I only have a desktop PC, so I cannot take that everywhere with me. Even if I had a laptop, if there isn't a Wi-Fi spot available, or an Ethernet I could plug into, I would not be able to access the information on the Internet. If I'm going on a longer trip, or somewhere that I am going to wait around with nothing to do, I'll bring an MR or two. (Or five or ten, depends on how long).

I like receiving my Model Railroader every month in the mail. Because both digital and paper information is susceptible to damage and loss, I like to have a backup copy. Because both are at risk of being lost, each proves to be a backup of the other.

I also like being surprised with what is in the magazine, and I'm not just looking through for something of direct benefit to me. If that was the case, I wouldn't look at anything but N scale layouts and construction techniques, et cetera. I read the magazine from cover to cover to get everything from it.

[rrebell]

The mags keep going up inprice and we get less pages. They won't come outin dvd for varius excuses so the mags creat a storage problem, so as we downsize as we get older the mags go as we tend to buy a few key books instead that have the info we want. Just now I am thinking of not renewing my Gazzette sub as storage is becoming an issue, store mags or trains, not much of a choise as the trains win hands down. Every one I know of in the hobby is giving away old mags as storge is becoming the key issue.

[Railphotog]

FWIW circulation of MR has been declining in the past several years too.  I don't recall the exact number that I read on another forum, but seems to be down about 50K from past years.   They just have a larger base and are (so far) able to continue.  The smaller mags only had a circulation of around 20K, and could not survive the decline.

I persoanlly subscribe to MR, RMC and the Gazette, as well as to some smaller specialized publications and SIG magazines.

 

 

[Dave Vollmer]

Until I lose that last ounce of self-respect and start lugging the laptop computer into the bathroom with me, I will always have a need for printed magazines.

[dgwinup]

Until I lose that last ounce of self-respect and start lugging the laptop computer into the bathroom with me, I will always have a need for printed magazines.

Excellent point, Dave!

I absolutely REFUSE to put a computer in my bathroom!!!  When I go there, I want something to read and magazines fill that need perfectly.

I also take my wife to all her doctor's appointments and I take the latest modeling magazine with me.  It not only helps me to pass the time while waiting, I often get to start a conversation with someone who noticed what I was reading!  Kids love them, too!

Darrell, quiet...for now

[SteamFreak]

Until I lose that last ounce of self-respect and start lugging the laptop computer into the bathroom with me, I will always have a need for printed magazines.

Excellent point, Dave!

I absolutely REFUSE to put a computer in my bathroom!!!  When I go there, I want something to read and magazines fill that need perfectly.

Darrell, quiet...for now

To quote Seinfeld, those magazines are officially flagged. I hope you have the decency not to pass them on...

[mersenne6]

 

  Dave,  I wouldn't call your post a rant and I don't think an apology is necessary.  I think your observations are right on target.  My favorite period for modeling is way away from mainstream and I've known for decades that I was pretty much on my own as far as interests.  For me, the value of the mainstream magazines such as MR is the fact that they are mainstream and provide me with well written articles of general interest and about general issues surrounding construction methods and trouble shooting. 

  The value of the net is the ability to finally find that handful of people with interests similar to mine and, if I so choose, spend time in a mutual sweat about details that I know are only of interest to someone who does care about my particular favorite phase of the hobby. I find the two - magazines and the net - to be very complementary and very much to my liking.

[Eriediamond]

After reading through this thread, I find that my thoughts parallel a lot of you that responded. My response here is that we are not an enemy of any publication or business. To me there are only two reasons for failure- mismanagement or production of a product no one wants or is willing to pay for. I do not subscribe to any mags, but I do purchase Model Railroader and Model Railroad Craftsman every month for reasons that would take another post to explain. I, like another responder, do not want to sound cold hearted here, but when we hear of publishers and hobby shops going out of business some feel depressed and express their sorrow over it. This is fine, I do the same, but to think we are an enemy seems a little harsh to me. Time and progress moves on and with it the products change (look at our hobby) and the way of doing business changes. If one likes and buys Athearn locos, does that mean he or she is and enemy of Bachmann? An enemy is someone out to get ya, and I don't think anyone is out to get anyone. Ken

[Texas Zepher]

Any yahoo with half a brain can post something on the internet. Are we to assume he/she knows what they are talking about?

Unfortunately many people do.  I'm amazed how many people quote the wikipedia, I could go out there and post (or change existing material) stuff and it doesn't have to be correct.  Some wikipeida sights have started clamping down on access but then all of a sudden they cease to be wiki sites.

[Texas Zepher]

If one likes and buys Athearn locos, does that mean he or she is and enemy of Bachmann?

Well, actually yes.   When MTH published the BLI Pennsy K-4 bashing advertisement in MR, I went out and purchased a BLI version just to spite them

[jfugate]

Any yahoo with half a brain can post something on the internet. Are we to assume he/she knows what they are talking about?

Unfortunately many people do.  I'm amazed how many people quote the wikipedia, I could go out there and post (or change existing material) stuff and it doesn't have to be correct.  Some wikipeida sights have started clamping down on access but then all of a sudden they cease to be wiki sites.

This is why I think any online publishing "wiki" effort should use a "candidate" and "offical content" publishing model.

Candidate content could be submitted by anybody, but it would go into a special area viewable only by site members with a login (not just anybody, in other words). Once candidate material has been reviewed and edited by the membership, then it gets published to the public site.

This would slow down the content submission, but on the other hand, it would raise the quality of the content. The more you open things up, the less reliable the content. But it is possible to solve that problem with some simple workflow procedures. 

[MAbruce]

Until I lose that last ounce of self-respect and start lugging the laptop computer into the bathroom with me, I will always have a need for printed magazines.

Ah yes, but do you bring your cell phone in the bathroom?  More and more of them are becoming internet capable and will likely be the device people will lug in the bathroom with them.

Just as long as they don't actually get on the phone while in the stall.  It happens too much already and it really bugs me! 

[Trekkie]

I'll admit I find the $36.95 hard to swallow for a year subscription to MRR, especially considering the bulk of the magazine appears to be ads, at least in my first issue.

But to be completely honest, yes, you can find *anything* on the internet. Sometimes easily, sometimes it takes some lookings, and sometimes you stumble upon it.

However, the semi-amusing part is it'll be a cold day in hell when I carry my computer into the bathroom. This is one of the areas most of my magazines get read the most. I'm also just like flipping through one while kicked back in a nice recliner chair. Laptops make you crunch up a bit to get the tiny screen (12" or so on my wife's computer) and honestly require more 'interaction' than 'flip and read'

I think MRR has it right in some cases, in that there is content online as well as offline, and the online content is refreshed more often than the magazine is. At least it seems that way to me.

I just wish their animated PDFs would work on my Macintosh computer.

[selector]

I may be the only one, but I enjoy sitting upstairs while my wife watches TV and I can sit in a more comfortable chair while I peruse a train magazine.

My online experience is quite different from actually doing the analog version.  Not better, not worse, just different.  Neither source of information has a monopoly on rectitude or on veracity.  One has to be careful interpreting and accepting wholesale any information from either source.

About the only difference is that with a website, I can leave a quick comment in the "Contact Us" facility, whereas I had to write and post a letter in prior years.   Even now, we can use email to the publishers of magazines.

Wikipedia should only ever be taken as a bit of a curiosity.  It may be factual, but it may only be a single contributor's agenda-pushed rant, and if you are going there with no prior exposure to the subject, how would you know one way or the other?  And if you find a second source that contradicts what is stated on the Wikipedia entry, which of the two should you choose?  The answer is that the user must beware, and look for other corroborating evidence from multiple sources.

Demise of MRR-related publishing

What can account for the demise of so many railroading magazines?  Numbers of sponsors/advertisers or numbers of buyers below a critical threshold, or a combination of those.  Period.  I can only guess, but my money is on the root cause being the long-term effects of the internet and the demographics and absolute numbers of interested people who would otherwise have been interested in purchasing those magazines.  Too, we shouldn't discount the extraordinary availability, all things considered, of highly detailed and reasonably reliable RTR stuff of all kinds.  Why scratch when a debit card punch can have a close approximation, minus an hour's fiddling and weathering, on your layout right away?

I don't want to stir a pot that doesn't need stirring, so please forgive my next expression... If the hobby was enjoying statis,...let's just talk about no change in numbers, let alone growth...would it not be reasonable to expect, given the prevalence of the internet and the growth in those accessing it, that we would have more new posters here every week?  Instead, we get what,...three maybe?   That is not a positive indicator in my view.  I would be much happier to see an honest to goodness 10 new posters here every week*.

*Not all new members will necessarily speak up and say something, perhaps not for many weeks...or ever.

[jfugate]

I do a lot of research into internet trends and most large publishers, especially those in Europe, are moving online. No one sees the printed page going away -- paper is just too darn convenient.

However, the dynamics are changing between paper and the internet. Just like TV did not eliminate radio, the internet will not eliminate paper.

But TV did usurp radio so that TV is now the first place people go for entertainment, while radio supplements TV. The large publishers in Europe expect the internet to become the public's first information source, with print becoming a supplement. Just the reverse of what it has been.

Many of the larger publishers in Europe are developing an aggressive online strategy, and most are on record saying the growth area for their business is now online, and they expect their printing arm to be downsized. The printing arm will still exist, but in the years ahead, their print publications will become secondary to their online presence.

So that's the handwriting on the wall for US publishers. The digital age is upon us, and any print publisher needs to have an aggressive online strategy if they are to avoid downsizing in the decade ahead, IMO. 

If Mainline Modeler and/or Model Railroading had developed an aggressive online arm of their business, not only would they still be here today, they would be flourishing. The trick is to know how to make money online -- there are ways, you just have to understand the different model for doing business online. Mainline Modeler and Model Railroading missed it. 

[PA&ERR]

Sorry, but I am a big Pogo fan and the title of this thread bothers me.

So for those who may be too young to have seen the original...

-George

[SilverSpike]

I do a lot of research into internet trends and most large publishers, especially those in Europe, are moving online. No one sees the printed page going away -- paper is just too darn convenient.

However, the dynamics are changing between paper and the internet. Just like TV did not eliminate radio, the internet will not eliminate paper.

But TV did usurp radio so that TV is now the first place people go for entertainment, while radio supplements TV. The large publishers in Europe expect the internet to become the public's first information source, with print becoming a supplement. Just the reverse of what it has been.

Many of the larger publishers in Europe are developing an agressive online strategy, and most are on record saying the growth area for their business is now online, and they expect their printing arm to be downsized. The printing arm will still exist, but in the years ahead, their print publications will become secondary to their online presence.

So that's the handwriting on the wall for US publishers. The digital age is upon us, and any print publisher needs to have an agressive online strategy if they are to avoid downsizing in the decade ahead, IMO. 

Joe,

You hit the nail on the head! In fact this is already confirmed in a report I have copied below with most forms of news media sources including TV news media.

Here are portions from a report by Lynn Neary that aired on NPR March 12, 2007:

According to a new report published by the Project for Excellence in Journalism, it says that news outlets are likely to lower their ambitions as a fragmented market - including the Internet - leaves them with fewer resources.

The new era of journalism, says Tom Rosenstiel, one of the report's authors, represents a significant shift in power from the journalist to the citizen.

The old days, when journalists acted as the gatekeepers who provided news to their readers or audience, are over, he says. Instead, Rosenstiel says, the audience decides what it wants to see.

That doesn't mean people aren't interested in news. Quite the contrary, says Rosenstiel. But with all the resources now available to people, the audience is splintered. As a result, most news organizations have a smaller number of viewers, readers and listeners.

And that, in turn, means fewer resources. In response, Rosenstiel says, journalism is entering a new phase of "limited ambitions." News organizations are trying to build an audience around a specific area of coverage. Some are practicing what he calls "hyperlocalism." Others may focus on personality-driven content.

The Project for Excellence in Journalism has been tracking trends in the news media for a number of years. Rosenstiel says that this, their fourth annual report, shows evidence that the world of traditional journalism is finally coming to terms with the radical changes brought about by the Web.

While that is often leading to richer experiences for consumers of the news, the challenge for the journalism business is finding a new economic model to support itself. The old model of advertising in newspapers and on television is less successful on the Internet, where people expect to get their news for free. Rosenstiel says that journalism needs more risk takers to lead the way into the future.

[IRONROOSTER]

From Wikipedia's site

Because Wikipedia is an on-going work to which in principle anybody can contribute, it differs from a paper-based reference source in some very important ways. In particular, older articles tend to be more comprehensive and balanced, while newer articles may still contain significant misinformation, unencyclopedic content, or vandalism. Users need to be aware of this in order to obtain valid information and avoid misinformation which has been recently added and not yet removed. (See Researching with Wikipedia for more details.) However, unlike a paper reference source, Wikipedia can be constantly updated, with articles on topical events being created or updated within minutes or hours, rather than months or years for printed encyclopedias.

 

The internet is a great way to share information, but it is like talking things over with your buddies.  You have to know who has expertise in an area and who doesn't.  Two or three sources are helpful to see if they agree. 

Also, I think there will be a demand for professional, authoritative sites.  How they will establish their credentials is a little uncertain.  Which ones can be successful business ventures and how they will accomplish this is still in the early stages with some successes, but probably lots of other ways not yet discovered. 

Amateur sites abound and some of these are getting pretty good.  But again how do they establish themselves.

It's an interesting time we live in.

Enjoy

Paul 

[Texas Zepher]

Sorry, but I am a big Pogo fan and the title of this thread bothers me.  So for those who may be too young to have seen the original...

And to put it in context, it was the last frame of the last strip.