3railguy wrote:The BLI dealer near me, Engine House Services - Green Bay, got a slew of BLI and PCM engines a few weeks ago just like in the Factory Direct ad and has them priced like Factory Direct. This tells dealers had the opportunity to take advantage of the excess inventory.
Excess inventory does not exist in this hobby.
Yes you can get the "Old" stuff with big flanges and coffee can motors etc... but none of the new stuff on demand.
Safety Valve wrote: 3railguy wrote:The BLI dealer near me, Engine House Services - Green Bay, got a slew of BLI and PCM engines a few weeks ago just like in the Factory Direct ad and has them priced like Factory Direct. This tells dealers had the opportunity to take advantage of the excess inventory.Excess inventory does not exist in this hobby.Yes you can get the "Old" stuff with big flanges and coffee can motors etc... but none of the new stuff on demand.
I can't blame a dealer for asking list price for a hot new product, but the ones that do not sell will end up with discounts. The LHS has to make a living or they will go be gone. I was surprised Factory Direct Trains offered the Big Boys without sound for the very low price of $325.00. I ordered one and received it very quickly.
I prefer the model without sound since I have one of the PCM Big Boys with the PCM sound. The sound for the Big Boy had to be reloaded with the correct whistle and bell to sound like a Union Pacific Big Boy. This was very disappointing to purchase the PCM engine believing it had prototype sound and hearing what sounded like a live steam model whistle and bell.
CAZEPHYR wrote: Safety Valve wrote: 3railguy wrote:The BLI dealer near me, Engine House Services - Green Bay, got a slew of BLI and PCM engines a few weeks ago just like in the Factory Direct ad and has them priced like Factory Direct. This tells dealers had the opportunity to take advantage of the excess inventory.Excess inventory does not exist in this hobby.Yes you can get the "Old" stuff with big flanges and coffee can motors etc... but none of the new stuff on demand. I can't blame a dealer for asking list price for a hot new product, but the ones that do not sell will end up with discounts. The LHS has to make a living or they will go be gone. I was surprised Factory Direct Trains offered the Big Boys without sound for the very low price of $325.00. I ordered one and received it very quickly. I prefer the model without sound since I have one of the PCM Big Boys with the PCM sound. The sound for the Big Boy had to be reloaded with the correct whistle and bell to sound like a Union Pacific Big Boy. This was very disappointing to purchase the PCM engine believing it had prototype sound and hearing what sounded like a live steam model whistle and bell.
You are not the only one considering sound re-programming. I am working on getting the Reading T1 from PCM re-programmed with what is supposed to be sounds from the real life engine itself, not what was on another model.
I thought the PCM Big boy sounded better than the Genesis version when I compared the two on the MR website videos.
OTM,
A recurring thread on the forum when modelers complain about company XYZ's product is to make your complaints known to the manufacturer and not just to fellow modelers. That being said, do LHS's have an association? If so, why not have the association voice strong concerns about predatory "clear out the inventory sales" by manufacturers(ie BLI/PCM in this instance). If not, do you as a retailer let the manufacturer know in no uncertain terms that these blowout sales are causing you to take a loss on your shelf inventory? Additionally, being undercut by the manufacturer will leave you no recourse but to discontinue stocking said manufacturers products.
I have made several entries on this forum since my conversation on 28th January with the owner of BLI/PCM/FDT at the Big-E Train Show in West Springfield, MA.(Kudos to Amherst Railway Society, Inc. for annually organizing this show) Part of my conversation with him led into pricing. According to him BLI will now do business via a reservations per announced model process;if a given "announced intention to produce model" does not generate sufficient support to justify the investment necessary for production it will not be produced. However, if it does garner the necessary support it will be scheduled for production. Now the tricky part: when a reservations justified model goes into production it will be for a quantity that is reservations plus some incremental quantity. The incremental is marketing realization that some customers may not be able at reservations time to make the commitment for one reason or another. Also some modelers who would like to purchase the "going into production" model may have been out of the loop re model announcement(I have been informed via this very forum of announced models that I was unaware of in spite of regular viewing of manufacturer's websites and the monthly read of Model Railroader)
So.....the owner says this is the new business model and it would seem that this new approach would offer the LHS some respite from barn burner sales. What about FDT? BLI's newest corporate creation would seem to fly in the face of this reservations required business model. Maybe not. It is possible that no matter how proficient, experienced and clairvoyent one's marketing unit may be they'll never hit the exact number the market demands for a given model. Some production runs will miss on the low side and others will shoot over the target. My conversation with the owner was simply this modeler asking some questions about BLI and PCM products that veered off into other things re BLI. The bottom line? Maybe this new approach will reestablish and sustain good relations with the local retailer and will protect the LHS from excess inventory sales. FDT would only be having product when marketing erred on the high side-even then LHS has only been selling reserved items. Last point, BLI owner did allude to the big closeouts houses as not being a preferred vehicle for moving product because essentially the manufacturer winds up in the same "leaky" boat as you the local retailer(ie "Hey, guys I've got to make a buck too!") I guess we'll see what truly transpires.
Hope you guys do in fact benefit from this approach-as much as the modeler likes to save a buck the savings can't indefinitely come out of someone's hide without an adverse effect on the hobby.
Jon
Well, having those blow outs pretty much puts the entire experience of pre-ordering, reserving or otherwise securing a model before it gets produced out of the way. One only needs to wait 6 months to a year and get it for half off on the FDT model.
Once the hobbyshops discontinue pulling product to sell, the silence on the Broadway Limiteds's phones will be pretty loud. Then there is product that may or may not be produced. Modelers will not want to take the trouble or time to wait and see if one actually got produced. They will find it from the competition or subsitute it for another product that will fill the need.
The vicious cycle will feed on itself.
Regarding new products, I no longer rely on Monthly Issues of MR. I get it right here on these forums once someone says "HEY! LOOKIE AT THIS NEW ENGINE!" Huh? A bit of research is done online and within a few days you have a pretty good idea what's what.
Then to read the official product announcement on the pages of the next month's MR? Ho.. hum.. too slow and too late johnny. And to find out in some cases that the model will be sold out or not produced at all. Not good for the hobby.
I think the entire Hobby with regard to new products is seriously broken. Products like... Mini metals new trucks or the Rapido Passenger Cars work well when one considers how they are being produced, what models are availible and WHEN they are due at the LHS. No pain of worrying if engine X will ever make it to the LHS.
In fact, forget the LHS for those engines, let's all sit on the internet and wait for it on Ebay or FDT.
If Broadway Limited wants to recapture it's business. They need to do three things:
Scrap FDT.
Establish firm pricing for everyone.
Eastablish and commit to a full production schedule all the way through. Dont be iffy or in any way shaky on possible production or new products. Either make the damn thing or not announce it at all.
I have been following a number of products from PCM, BLI for over a year and almost more than two years since they are announced. Some are availible most are not. There is no new information which suffers from over-age and low-confidence as to the validity of the data. Such a such a product announced two years ago and continually pushed back in "Delivery date" does not a happy customer make.
Take the recent NYC Mohawk 4-8-2 These forums has discussed this engine to perfection with most interested parties very well aware of potential features and in some cases learned enough to adjust thier orders to get the versions they want.. such as boxpok drivers.
The durn engine is not even illustrated with photos or any information as to sound or availibility yet. I doubt I will ever see this engine at the LHS in person. Will I order one? Probably not as I am over-equippted in that wheel arrangement and am waiting on other products to actually come out of production and become availible so I can get them and move on.
10 years from now I may find a copy somewhere and get it for 50 bucks because it will be obselete compared to the new engines in the distant future. Or any engines at all are produced.
What happens if everyone produces an engine, no one buys it until it finally bubbles up as unwanted children on FDT or some other site far away from our beloved LHS?
I recently noticed that dealerships are not moving new product very well. They are doing good work moving quality used vehicles and throwing the junkers back into the system for someone else to worry about.
Makes me wonder if the entire process of Factory, Sales, Support and Repair is revelant at all. I can see a manufactor say.. no, we are not going to produce this engine because not enough people are interested in it.
Might as well close and lock the place up and go home. We're all done in the engine business at that point.
jondrd wrote: OTM, A recurring thread on the forum when modelers complain about company XYZ's product is to make your complaints known to the manufacturer and not just to fellow modelers. That being said, do LHS's have an association? If so, why not have the association voice strong concerns about predatory "clear out the inventory sales" by manufacturers(ie BLI/PCM in this instance). If not, do you as a retailer let the manufacturer know in no uncertain terms that these blowout sales are causing you to take a loss on your shelf inventory? Additionally, being undercut by the manufacturer will leave you no recourse but to discontinue stocking said manufacturers products. I have made several entries on this forum since my conversation on 28th January with the owner of BLI/PCM/FDT at the Big-E Train Show in West Springfield, MA.(Kudos to Amherst Railway Society, Inc. for annually organizing this show) Part of my conversation with him led into pricing. According to him BLI will now do business via a reservations per announced model process;if a given "announced intention to produce model" does not generate sufficient support to justify the investment necessary for production it will not be produced. However, if it does garner the necessary support it will be scheduled for production. Now the tricky part: when a reservations justified model goes into production it will be for a quantity that is reservations plus some incremental quantity. The incremental is marketing realization that some customers may not be able at reservations time to make the commitment for one reason or another. Also some modelers who would like to purchase the "going into production" model may have been out of the loop re model announcement(I have been informed via this very forum of announced models that I was unaware of in spite of regular viewing of manufacturer's websites and the monthly read of Model Railroader) So.....the owner says this is the new business model and it would seem that this new approach would offer the LHS some respite from barn burner sales. What about FDT? BLI's newest corporate creation would seem to fly in the face of this reservations required business model. Maybe not. It is possible that no matter how proficient, experienced and clairvoyent one's marketing unit may be they'll never hit the exact number the market demands for a given model. Some production runs will miss on the low side and others will shoot over the target. My conversation with the owner was simply this modeler asking some questions about BLI and PCM products that veered off into other things re BLI. The bottom line? Maybe this new approach will reestablish and sustain good relations with the local retailer and will protect the LHS from excess inventory sales. FDT would only be having product when marketing erred on the high side-even then LHS has only been selling reserved items. Last point, BLI owner did allude to the big closeouts houses as not being a preferred vehicle for moving product because essentially the manufacturer winds up in the same "leaky" boat as you the local retailer(ie "Hey, guys I've got to make a buck too!") I guess we'll see what truly transpires. Hope you guys do in fact benefit from this approach-as much as the modeler likes to save a buck the savings can't indefinitely come out of someone's hide without an adverse effect on the hobby. Jon
Hi Jon - we sort of have an association or two. I'm not a member of one, as ... and this is my opinion only ... I have not seen the necessity of being part of one as a "smaller" shop or a shop that is mainly selling one line. The retail associations seem to be geared toward the bigger, multiple line stores with employees...the LHS owners forum I belong to is kinda the same way. It's been helpful, however, to be a part of, just like this one, information and perception-wise. But there is not, say, a model train shop owners association.
I think, and again this is just my impression, that there has been plenty of concerns voiced to the manufacturers over the years and some of us have the idea that it just doesn't matter to the manufacturers what we think.
A lot of this topic about product availability and clearance sales all comes down to...hopefully I can say this..."a damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Basically you have a situation where no matter what anyone does, someone in the chain is not going to be happy. It would seem that right now a lot of manufacturers are doing what's best for them...in the short run I guess that's good business, keep the profit up and all, but in the long run...if all you are left with is disgruntled distributors, shops and most importantly, customers...are you really doing what's best for long-term viability?
It is good to hear that Broadway's reps are conducting good PR at the shows...that can only help.
And it is true that with Broadway's new system - which is the same thing Atlas has been doing for awhile now - it could be that eventually Broadway business could come back to the LHS.
But you bring up an excellent point, which we owners have already discussed, is...well why DID they start up Factory Direct?
I'm sure the wiser owners are taking a wait and see attitude and not closing the door to Broadway entirely. No point in burning bridges. Hopefully nothing I've said in a post can be taken as an attack on BLI.
And ultimately the real problem is not just what BLI decides to do. No matter what a manufacturer decides to do in relation to wholesale costs and selling through the LHS or blowing things out...there is always gonna be some idiot that thinks he can sell at cost or for a buck or two over on eBay or through a mail-order house. The old "we lose a dollar on every sale but make it up in volume" approach.
LHS owners simply are not going to stock (read that as STOCK, most of them/us will of course special order if a customer finds the net too risky) high dollar locomotives when we can see them...be it Broadway or Bachmann Spectrum or whatever...on eBay for less than our cost at times. It's just good business to ignore the line altogether if this is going to be the situation.
But the bottom line...as with all business transactions...money talks and blah blah blah. LHS owners speak the loudest by simply not ordering any more product or canceling any orders...and that has been done in droves from what I hear.
You also make a good point there at the end...ultimately you get what you pay for. If all we want is the lowest price, then we can't gripe about what happens to our hobby in the future.
Well...hopefully I answered your questions and hopefully I didn't stick my foot in my mouth too much.
Safety Valve also made some good points in
Safety Valve wrote: CAZEPHYR wrote: Safety Valve wrote: 3railguy wrote:The BLI dealer near me, Engine House Services - Green Bay, got a slew of BLI and PCM engines a few weeks ago just like in the Factory Direct ad and has them priced like Factory Direct. This tells dealers had the opportunity to take advantage of the excess inventory.Excess inventory does not exist in this hobby.Yes you can get the "Old" stuff with big flanges and coffee can motors etc... but none of the new stuff on demand. I can't blame a dealer for asking list price for a hot new product, but the ones that do not sell will end up with discounts. The LHS has to make a living or they will go be gone. I was surprised Factory Direct Trains offered the Big Boys without sound for the very low price of $325.00. I ordered one and received it very quickly. I prefer the model without sound since I have one of the PCM Big Boys with the PCM sound. The sound for the Big Boy had to be reloaded with the correct whistle and bell to sound like a Union Pacific Big Boy. This was very disappointing to purchase the PCM engine believing it had prototype sound and hearing what sounded like a live steam model whistle and bell. You are not the only one considering sound re-programming. I am working on getting the Reading T1 from PCM re-programmed with what is supposed to be sounds from the real life engine itself, not what was on another model.I thought the PCM Big boy sounded better than the Genesis version when I compared the two on the MR website videos.
Safety Valve
The PCM chuff is much better until higher speeds, but the Genesis whistle has 18 selections, and two are dead on for the Big Boy. The Genesis chuff may be the worst ever for a steam model and the DCC is certifiable as the worst drive to date. I have already started replacing the sound and drive with Zimo DCC and a Tsunami sound for my Genesis models. They are best of the available combinations today for my money.
The reprogramming has not been easy to get the whistle totally correct, but the Bell from the 3985 recording really made the PCM sound great. The PCM generator sound also had to be reprogrammed to allow it to stay on after the first five seconds of opertion. PCM only played the tubo generator sound for five seconds as the headlight was being turned on.