Back in the dark ages of N-scale, pre-1970, I suddenly found myself with a spce tobuild a model railroad. Now, I happen to be a fan of Class-I, big-time railroading. I agonized for weeks between HO vs. N. N eventually won out. I met some great people - including the pioneers, Jim FitzGerald (modular layouts), Ben Davis (Belmont Shore Club), Hal Riegger (N-Cat) - saw the birth of N-Trak in Signal Hill, CA (site of the original Belmont Shore Lines). I have never regretted it. Just before I retired and moved to another part of the country, I had a perfectly enjoyable Class-I railroad in my garage. It included a ten-track staging level, double track, thirty-car freight trains, a true fourteen-car Santa Fe "Chief" with a 3776-class 4-8-4 on the headend, and a rendition of my uncle's house north of Denver in the late 1940s, complete with the old Dent Sub going behind the house and down to the grade crossing of the road that went by the front of the house - all in a 3'x12' + 3'x7' arm ("L" shape). I could never have done that in HO.
Take the aforementioned admonishments to heart; take time and care to lay the track, hold the mainline radius to the suggested 18" minimum (mine was the Atlas standard of 19", with 17" on inside tracks of double track curves). I also had a couple of 1-1/2 turn spirals (utilizing joining sheets of 1/2" plywood joining staging and viewing levels), which worked fine, except for hand clearance, which is half of HO - or is it my hand was twice the size it would have been in HO?
So, go for it. The N-scale world has undergone a wonderous revolution over the last ten or twelve years. "Now, why did I get "that" car when I was at the shop? - I already have two of 'em!"
ardenastationmaster
Hi Sean:
You can do almost anything in N scale that you can do with HO, in about 1/4 the space. Your 36" radius curves become 18" in N scale. Lots of first generation diesels available. Steam availability in N scale is improving greatly. You can have DCC and sound in N; Athearn is about to relase a UP Challenger with DCC and sound.
A 12' x 14' room is plenty for N scale, even for your 15-20 car "City of" passenger trains and 30-40 car frieghts. An around the room layout, even multi-level will give you the most for the space.
I bet 12 x 14 is roughly 1/4 the size of your double garage. You could even use roughly the same layout in N that you had in HO if you prefer its plan.
A big plus in N scale is the ability to have a higher scenery-to-track ratio, which improves the overall look of the layout.
Regards,
John Wallis
UPHS Member also
There's all sorts of possibilities in N Scale... just pick your pleasure !
Interesting, 33 posts maybe one or two from HO modelers, the rest from N scalers some hard selling their scale.
For the record, HO is my scale. Blame it on the eye thing, what ever.
Look before you leap, is it worth the additional cost? You'll get about 1/2 of what it cost out of your used stuff.
If the choice is the garage or the lving room, I'll take the garage in a minute, adding a small central heat/air unit in my garage is a small price to pay for the strings a living room layout would have in my house!
The detail and on-board capability of N is very different from HO. Is that OK? Is having more layout more important than having a larger scale?
It seems to me that if scenery is your thing, the smaller scale may be more satisfying. If it is operating your trains, HO may have an edge.
Good luck with your decision.
Joe Daddy
joe-daddy wrote: If the choice is the garage or the lving room, I'll take the garage in a minute, adding a small central heat/air unit in my garage is a small price to pay for the strings a living room layout would have in my house!
joe-daddy wrote: The detail and on-board capability of N is very different from HO. Is that OK? Is having more layout more important than having a larger scale?
Basically, I break it down like this.... if you want to model modern era, go with N. If you want to model long passenger trains, go with N. If you want to model transition, take your pick. If you want to model pre-transition, go with HO. If you want to faithfully replicate Railway X, you're going to have an easier time in HO, especially if you're running steam. You CAN reverse any of these, but the general advantages of each scale results in the above breakout. If you want sound in everything, ditchlights, etc, etc, HO is better suited, although technology is narrowing the gap.
joe-daddy wrote: Look before you leap, is it worth the additional cost? You'll get about 1/2 of what it cost out of your used stuff.
Or even less, but it doesn't matter. My HO trains are useless to me since I've been turned off by the whole radius thing. I think 18" radius in HO should be banned, I'm sorry. My HO stufftakes up precious space, even in boxes. Aside from three locomotives I choose to keep for future superdetailing projects, my HO collection is wothless and has to go. I keep my layout and trains in my room and want to free up all the clutter. It's as simple as that.
Getting 1/2 of the cost for my HO stuff is better than chucking it in the trash, obviously. At least the money goes to N scale trains now. The happiness I get from running long locos and rolling stock on 18" radius in N scale is priceless. Jumping scales has also given me new appreciation and a new perspective on a hobby I've had for more than 25 years. It's like dating someone new after dumping someone after a long relationship that went nowhere. Everything is new to me, yet so familliar.
Bikerdad wrote:On the other hand, the physical reliability of HO is a bit better.
This sounds alot better coming from an N scaler than from me. Reliability is my top priority for hobby satisfaction. All depends upon the definition of bit, doesn't it?
Bikerdad wrote:If you want to model pre-transition, go with HO. If you want to faithfully replicate Railway X, you're going to have an easier time in HO, especially if you're running steam.
Steam is really important on my railroad. Again this sounds better from the N crowd than me.
Bikerdad wrote: If you want sound in everything, ditchlights, etc, etc, HO is better suited, although technology is narrowing the gap.
The current level of sophistication in HO scale pulled me back into this hobby 15 months ago. Yes, I want sound, lights, signalling, smoke, operating crossing gates, antimated oil wells, the works. My railroad is becoming a symphony of motion, sound and lights, all precisely controlled by the computer. This is a reality today in my trainroom. I value the present day capability over what marketing calls futures. This because at 62, my future is, well, now.
Thanks, N team for shaping my own thoughts about my HO experience.
Sean,
I was in N scale for 25+ years before switching to HO and was fortunate to have my N scale layout in Great Model Railroads 1993. I have been in HO for the past 15 years. If I were in your shoes, I would make the switch to N for a number of reasons:
1) IMHO your layout space will not let you realistically model in HO the wide-open-spaces UP that you apparently like some much. You will be forced to compromise on 24" radius curves that will be very unflattering to 80' passenger cars and big boys. In N scale I would recommend that you establish 24" as your minimum radius. Those long yellow passenger trains and 4-8-8-4's will look terrific on that radius curvature. On my Arkansas Division layout I used 24" as the minimum and it made a big difference.
2) Based upon your prototype, you need a high scenery-to-trackage ratio to create a pleasing reproduction of that UP area. N scale will allow that. In HO, you will be tempted and probably forced to put way too much track on the layout in order to achieve some operational satisfaction.
3) Train length- Long 25 car+ trains are very feasible in your space in N scale. If you raise the layout height to 54" - 58", you will be amazed at the realism attainable in N scale.
4) Operations- based upon your prototype, the layout will be primarily mainline running, which is definitely where N scale excels: long trains and relatively long passing sidings.
5) The N scale equipment of today runs terrific. There is plenty of UP available, including some steam.
6) Switching- To say that you can't perform switching in N scale is ridiculous. The engines of today have excellent slow speed performance and with kadees and a pick you can do all the switching you want.
7) DCC- Many new N scale offerings come with decoders in them. Plus there are companies that offer replacement frames milled out to accept decoders.
If you were interested in modeling a small coal mining operation in West Virginia, the above points would be completely different. But based upon you stated desires and available space, I would recommend N scale. You will have no trouble selling your HO equipment on ebay.
Greg Johnson 'greg1950'
I am a dual-scaler: I have a little HO which I run at a club, and an N-scale layout at home. I find that the new N-scale equipment is equal to the new HO equipment in every area except sound. When I have a guest over to operate with me, they are always surprized at how well the N equipment runs. All my loco's are Atlas or Kato, and all now have the latest generation decoders in them.
There are two areas which are problematic, and both concern couplers. The Micro-trains couplers introduce slinky action, which requires adding friction to trucks which reduces train length. The Micro-trains equivalent couplers don't couple as well at switching speeds. And for operation I use hand held uncoupling tools; if you don't ease them between the couplers you end up with derailed rolling stock.
One other thought: a 4' X 8' layout in HO looks (and is) toylike, while a 4' X 8' layout in N looks realistic and offers satisfying operation. And 12' X 14' in N would yield a nice "E" shaped walk in that would allow all the advantages of N to shine.
The hard sell continues.
greg1950 wrote:6) Switching- To say that you can't perform switching in N scale is ridiculous. The engines of today have excellent slow speed performance and with kadees and a pick you can do all the switching you want.
rkdave wrote:There are two areas which are problematic, and both concern couplers. The Micro-trains couplers introduce slinky action, which requires adding friction to trucks which reduces train length. The Micro-trains equivalent couplers don't couple as well at switching speeds. And for operation I use hand held uncoupling tools; if you don't ease them between the couplers you end up with derailed rolling stock.
OK, I think I can see where that could ruin operational satisfaction for me.
Is the issue Kadee vs Microscale or N scale couplers are problematic?
In my experience, getting and keeping my HO couplers in top shape is not trivial and they are twice the size.
I've modelled in N for about 15 years and have since switched to HO. And yes I still have a couple of recent issue Atlas N Geeps that really run like swiss watches.
I think that it's really a matter of does it look and feel right to you. If so then switch to N.Both sizes offer very good quality material these days. N scale engines can really creep and switch just as good as HO and the detail is also very good. One note of caution though: stay away from older N stuff on eBay (pre-1995) because they produced some real dogs back in the old days of N scale. But all recent stuff is simply GREAT.
The other important consideration is the long-term perspective. How long do you plan to live in the new house? If it's only for a few years, is it really worthwile to start all over again in a new scale? You have probably invested a lot of money in your trains and it would be a shame to sell it when you may have the opportunity to build a new big HO layout a few years down the road.You could also build a smaller layout, perhaps with emphasis on a branch or industrial district.On average you get around 25-30% back for your trains, and that's a serious waste of $$$. Also I don't know how attached you are to your HO models.
For me personally, I moved away from N because my preferences shifted from big-time railroading to smaller more intimate scenes in a larger scale with more detail. Heck I'm even dabbling in O scale because of the satisfying size and presence. Sure, I can build a lot less layout in the same train room but that is a choice.
So go with what feels good.
Frank
fwright wrote: Metro Red Line wrote: I've never tried selling at train shows, but I can't imagine it would be any less time-consuming than eBay. You have to arrange to rent tables or spaces to set up tables. You have the logistics getting all your supplies - tables, cash box, labels, food and drink, chairs, display cases, trains, etc., to or at the site. You have to set and tag prices in advance. You have to have a responsible person manning your table for the entire duration of the show. And then you have to lug back all your supplies and items that didn't sell. Finally, your market is limited to show attendees.Granted, eBay is time consuming to thoroughly identify, photograph, and describe the piece. Then add packing, shipping, and dealing with payments. Because of the time involved, and actual shipping costs being what they are, I generally only sell my better items - new in box or good condition - items on eBay. The rest I have given away or kept.
Metro Red Line wrote:
I've never tried selling at train shows, but I can't imagine it would be any less time-consuming than eBay. You have to arrange to rent tables or spaces to set up tables. You have the logistics getting all your supplies - tables, cash box, labels, food and drink, chairs, display cases, trains, etc., to or at the site. You have to set and tag prices in advance. You have to have a responsible person manning your table for the entire duration of the show. And then you have to lug back all your supplies and items that didn't sell. Finally, your market is limited to show attendees.
Granted, eBay is time consuming to thoroughly identify, photograph, and describe the piece. Then add packing, shipping, and dealing with payments. Because of the time involved, and actual shipping costs being what they are, I generally only sell my better items - new in box or good condition - items on eBay. The rest I have given away or kept.
Relevant to the above discussion I have had experience with both selling at swap meets and selling online. Last year I had reason to dispose of a considerable quantity of G-guage equipment as I decided to get out of that scale. For the first time ever I rented a table at a swap meet sponsored by a local model railroad club. I invested the "considerable" sum of $20 and came home with a $200 profit and less about 50% of my collection. Of course part of what helped my sales was that I was one of only a handful of exhibitors that day offering G-scale equipment. You will have a lot more competition selling HO stuff.
I was also daunted by the prospect of selling on eBay, but in my case there was a solution that may well also be available to you in your area. I took my stuff to a local consignment shop that specializes in online auctions. For a $10 listing fee and a percent of the final sale they do all the work; take the photographs, list the item, ship it to the bidder if it sells, collect the money, and send you a check for your share of the sale.
They give you a web link and a code # so you can track the progress of your auction item. I found out that if you put a item out for a fixed period (5-days was the term offered by the service I used) you get almost no nibbles until the last day of the auction. Then, if you are lucky, a bidding war breaks out. I sold almost everything I listed for more than my minimum asking price. If your item doesn't sell, you get it back and forfeit the listing fee. The details of the contract will very according to the service you use, of course.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
When I was first considering Model Railroading, I could not decide on HO or N. So, when the train show came to town I went to see what was possible in the hands of experienced modelers.
N scale won out. Simply because so much more scenery and operatations can be put into an equal space.
I did get discouraged though, because until recently, HO has had so much more available. Nscale is now has a full head of steam and is coming on strong.
Before you decide anything, go to a show and look at some of the club layouts.
Hi James,
Where do you get Sanborn maps?
We never have enough room for all we want to model, N can "double" (almost) your space.
John
cbqjohn wrote: We never have enough room for all we want to model, N can "double" (almost) your space.
As a veteran of several N layouts, this is my "2 cents" worth:
As a veteran HO modeler I assume you have accumulated a certain supply of HO track plan books. I would select an HO plan of the appropriate size for your location, one that appeals to you the most, and build it in N-scale almost exactly as depicted in the plan. That is to say: with the same curve radii as used in HO, the same turnout positions, and the same siding lengths. The only thing I would modify to N-scale standards would be the clearance between contiguious tracks. Resist the urge to fill in what is left with more track. The empty space is your friend!
A number of years ago I moved from a split level to a colonial and had to scrap, a large portion of my old layout, due to size. A short time later I got a divorce and ended up in an apartment. I had a lot of HO and one N-scale engine(I bought several years ago). My friends were in N-scale, "the dark side"as I called it, and I still had my HO. But I decided to build a layout in N-scale, from a Model Railroader article, and have been happy with the move ever since. Fact is my friends call me a rail baron because of the number of engines I have. Definitely make the move. The quality of the stuff is very good, but watch out for the old stuff labeled "new in the box", it might be older from a collection and not up to today's standards. By the way I still have my HO and plan to build an 8' switching layout. Good luck.
Fred
im 16 and i love n scale its small and awesome! i have a 3 feet by 5 feet table that i run trains on. due to the small space in my room, i have a bed a dresser and a 27" tv, i had to go with a small table. i cant really run 6 axled SD70m's, GO EMD!!!, anyways cause it looks funny rumbiling down standard 11.25" curves. but i do
Army National Guard E3MOS 91BI have multiple scales nowZ, N, HO, O, and G.
UNIONPACIFIC4018 wrote:I really love turntables and coal towers and all that stuff.
As someone who was last heavily active in the hobby 10 years ago in HO, it's kind of daunting paying upwards of $15 for a single piece of rolling stock. That's why I buy my N scale rolling stock (and locos, if they got good ones there) at train shows/swap meets. I just picked up some Roundhouse boxcars for $4 and Intermountain covered hopper kits for $5 each at a swap meet this past weekend! And they were new items, too!
Unlike HO, most of the N stuff at train shows/swap meets are new items, or at least N.O.S. (new old stock).