Good Luck. I have 3 old Uniteds and they look wonderful. They don't run well and need new motors and gear goxes. I did not do the painting, but they are only fair.
Caution on ebay, sometimes they promise more then they deliver. What you need to find is that rare person who remotors and does custom painting. The one I knew has died. These people exist, but check references for some claim more skill than they have. It is my impression that the older models from Japan were superiore, but the other guys who specialize in these will be more specific.
You are entering into a fun but complex market. Are you looking for steam? If not, i.e. if you are looking for diesels, I would suggest that you will be disappointed by the running qualities of brass diesels versus high-quality plastic, and will not find the level of detail to be all that much higher either (main difference probably being scale-size handrails). If you are looking for steam, only a small fraction of steam diesels go for as much as $2,000. Good older models often go for $200 or less, and may be a good starting point; prices are more a function of the scarcity (number of that particular model produced, and how many other versions of that particular locomotive are available from other runs or other importers) than of pure quality. Here is one of the rubs, though: there have been a number of importers (most of whom are now out of business) who worked with a number of different fabricators. The importer (you'll commonly see Sunset, Key, Overland Models (OMI), West Side Models (WSM) Pacific Fast Mail (PFM), Precision Scale (PSC a/k/a Iron Horse Models), W&R, Oriental Ltd., less commonly Challenger, Balboa, Custom Brass, NPP, NWSL - but there were others too) provided the scale drawings and the design, specified the levels of detail, and often supplied detail castings; the fabricator did the assembly and the factory paint (although the majority of brass models were originally supplied unpainted). The fact is that all of these importers have supplied some outstanding models, most have also supplied some very average models, and not a few have supplied some below-average models. A number of them specialized in a region of the country or even a single road. The most consistent fabricator was a Korean firm called Samhongsa, but some of the best models in my own collection were made by other fabricators. These models are truly hand-made and therefore quality within a run is also not as perfectly consistent as for a mass-produced model.
The largest marketplace for brass - nearly all of which is sold used - is E Bay, which has a brass imports sub-category in the HO model railroad section. However, I would highly recommend against making your first brass purchase off E Bay. Most of these sellers are ignorant of brass models and, usually unknowingly, routinely mis-describe models, do not know how to objectively compare the model's condition, etc. You should instead look to an established dealer for your first purchases. A good web search will turn up a number of them. These dealers will be only a bit more expensive than the typical E Bay price (before E Bay established the brass imports sub-category it was much easier to get "deals") and will be able to offer you advice regarding the quality and condition of the model.
I will also comment that while you are probably wise to look for a painted model as your starting point - and there are plenty of them around, but as with all other things brass, the quality varies almost wildly, since most were not painted at the factory - you are much better off installing sound into an unpainted model. In any event, you will need to learn the basics of disassembly and design early on. Andy Sperandeo did a good article on this subject in MR several years ago and it would be worth downloading if you do not still have the relevant issue. If you have installed decoders and / or sound into mass-produced steam, you'll generally find it actually easier to do so in most brass steamers, especially the ones with can motors (produced from late Seventies onward).
Good luck!
BLI Museum Series Great Northern S-2 4-8-4
Video link of BLI Museum Series Great Norther S-@ 4-8-4
Cost: $1,550-$1,700BLI has plans on a second run of these fairly soon.
Cost: $1,200 - ??? (Depends on the locomotive)I don't have any experience with Division Point but someone told me that they make a very nice product.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I buy through Uncle Dave's Brass and have had great luck with both price and selection. Just my 2 cents.....
VAPEURCHAPELON wrote:At first here are the websites of some well known brass dealers:www.ballsofbrass.comwww.brasslocomotive.comwww.brasstrains.comwww.caboosehobbies.comwww.gunnings.comwww.thecaboose.comwww.railmodel.comwww.uncledavesbrass.comAt some of these you will find many photos of the models.Second I have to say that especially for the road names you are looking for there have been imported some real great top-notch brass steamers, but these are rare or even extremely rare now. But these days you may have luck. At ebay.com I found some fine models - listed below. the W&R models - especially the Z-6 and the NP 4-8-4s - belong to the rarest pieces within the whole brass field. And they are considered to be of great quality, too.My experience is that the prices at ebay usually are considerably lower than at the dealers mentioned above - except the for the rare pieces in the field, of course. So I recommend using ebay - also because especially the rare pieces are found here more frequently than at the offline dealers. Please have a look at ebay's homepage and tip in the following item numbers in the search field:260052776409 (W&R NP A-4)260053103971 (OMI NP Z-8)150059958729 (W&R SP&S H-1)260053536905 (W&R GN Z-6)290052377575 (W&R NP A-3)150060593807 (PFM GN R-2)150061388436 (PFM GN N-3)150061311281 (W&R GN F-8)I don't know the sellers frankp551 and hhhawk2001, but all the others (bauer3551, hmaynard, shawnthegearbox) are trustworthy and knowledgeable sellers. Hal Maynard even is a great brass model painter and even does some superdetailing and remotoring/ regearing. So if you consider to purchase one or both of the above mentioned PFM models you must know that these usually run very good but are noisy. But there are possibilities to upgrade their drive lines. All of the other models are - although Korean (not Japanese (Japanese craftsmanship usually is much better than Korean)) - very high quality, high detail and smooth and quiet running models - and are very rare. The prices will show. So I wish you luck and fun with whatever you will buy. And please feel free to ask me questions, I will do what I can to provide help, I am a "brass guy" since about 10 years.
Thanks for the great list of possibilities. This is of great help.
Brass is wonderful, it's forgiving to work on and it constitutes about 85% of my rather varied steam roster. I love brass, I like the look and the feel and the HEFT of it.
BUT--before you start looking, what is your minimum radius, and type of turnouts? If you've got between 18" and 22" radius and #4 or #5 turnouts, you're going to be limited to pretty much the smaller wheel arrangements (2-8-0, 4-6-0, 2-8-2). Brass is made to much closer tolerances than mass-produced plastic steam, and you generally need pretty generous radii if you're going to be running much over a 2-8-4. For anything bigger, say a 2-10-2, 2-10-4, 4-8-2, etc., you'll probably need at least a 28-30" radius or larger (I've got a 36" radius, and some of my brass articulateds STILL have a fearsome overhang!).
Not trying to dissuade you, because a good-running brass locomotive looks like nothing else on your model railroad--believe me, you'll RUN them once you get started! They may take a little more 'tinkering' at times than the Plastic RTR, but by and large, they're very easy to work on. Two or three screws on the cab and under the cylinders and they come apart quite easily.
Current brass is pretty expensive--most larger wheelbase locos tend to run in the $1,000-$2000 dollar range, especially if they're produced by either PSC or Overland, but they're beautifully crafted, very smooth and for the most part, very powerful locomotives. My new PSC Rio Grande 2-10-2 can handle probably about as much tonnage as the prototype, and practically at the same scale speeds.
Older brass, particularly Key and Sunset are generally quite good runners (some need a little more weight than the provided boiler weight) and good pullers. Detail is generally good to excellent.
During Brass' "Classic Era", some very fine models were made by Akane, United, Westside and Balboa. Many of them had open-frame motors, but NWSL makes smooth, powerful replacement can motors that are quite easy replacements. The details may not be up to current standards, but their overall appearance is quite attractive. You can generally find used brass by checking out some of the websites advertised either in MR magazine or Model Railroad Craftsman. And you may be pleasantly surprised by some of the prices.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
GN-Rick wrote:Another possibility for you to consider is the upcoming run by Sunset Models of both the NP A-3 Northern, and the SP&S E-1 # 700. These are being offered with sound and lights as well as DCC ready. There's been some delays on the project, but they keep asuring us that these are going to be produced. Hope this helps.
I saw those on the web and was giving them some thought. However, this is something of an impulse purchase (i.e., a big Christmas present to myself after a couple high-stress months at work) and so immediate gratification is a pre-requisite.
Anyway, I put in a bid on the Overland 4-6-6-4 on eBay and will see if I win it today.
Don--read your overview and pretty much agree with you EXCEPT on Akane. I got my first Akane articulated (M-4 2-8-8-4) in 1965, and it's still one of my best locos (motor replaced, of course). I also have another M-4 and two SP AC's and a USRA Heavy Pacific, and frankly, I've never had any trouble at all with the Akanes. Okay, the detail isn't the best (except for the Pacific, which is a gem), but even after replacing the open-frame motors with NWSL's, I've never had any problem with the gearboxes or the running and pulling capacity of the locos. They're smooth, powerful and VERY quiet.
The owner of my LHS had a used Akane Allegheney last year on consignment--the asking price was $1100, which at the time was a bit out of my range, but after watching that baby glide around his layout, pulling everything but the kitchen sink and the only noise being the clank of the valve gear, I wish I'd had the funds at that time. BTW, the loco didn't stay on his shelf for more than a week. All the Akanes I've got and seen are very good locos.
Welcome to the world of Brass.........
You'll quickly find that Brass Steam is almost an addiction, you can't "just own 1 piece".
TStage--
I have to reply to your E-mail here on the post, since I don't have your private e-mail account and the new forum just sends the answers into some kind of cyberspace.
In answer to Division Point Brass, I'm not familiar with the company, the newest brass I have comes from PSC and Overland. I will say that if Division Point is similar in quality to either of these companies, you'll probably end up with a damn fine loco.
Maybe someone else on this thread is familiar with Division Point.
Let me know what you find, okay?