I’m modeling Boston & Maine in HO (DCC) during the transition era. The problem is trying to find prototypical steam locomotives. Based on research, B&M had few if any USRA locomotives, and there steam engines had unique features (arched cab windows for instance), that other roads did not have. Consequently, manufacturers very rarely make B&M steam, and if they do, it is not very prototypical.
That being said, another option is to purchase used brass models. Based on internet searches, there are some used B&M steam brass models out there, but the cost is usually in the neighborhood of $500. Brass on ebay usually goes for more than prices you see in specialty shops. Without knowing much about brass, I am not willing to pay $500 for what could be an inferior product.
So I’m looking for any information I can find to enhance my knowledge on this subject.
Brass seems to be made in the Far East and imported to the U.S. Who are the good importers, and who do you stay away from? These are some of the names I have seen: PFM, PSC, KEY, GEM, OMI, Overland, Hallmark, and Sunset.
Is it better to buy painted or unpainted models?
How much does it cost to have them painted?
How well do they actually run? (I would actually want to run these on the layout and not put them on a shelf)
What’s the cost to get the drive train rebuilt if necessary?
Are there any good books or resources out there to learn about the subject?
Modeling the B&M Railroad during the transition era in Lowell, MA
Dear reader,
Andy Sperandeo wrote an excellent article on this exact topic for the October 2005 issue of Model Railroader. You can get a copy of that issue by calling my colleagues in Customer Service at 1-800-533-6644.
Thanks for reading MR,
Terry Thompson
Terry:
Thanks for the reply. I have the article, it's a good one, and I have read it a few times. I am just looking to see if I can get some additional details, and experiences from the very knowledgable participants of this forum
Steve
While I don't model the B&M, I was quite taken with this little Mogul (pictured below) when I first saw it at a nearby hobbyshop. The store was having some sort of open house/celebration and had many items on sale. The unpainted loco was priced at $99.00, and had been part of the store owner's personal collection. The end of the box shows it to be a Boston & Maine B-15 2-6-0, made in Korea for PFM. The cab windows had arched tops, and there was what I think was an ATS box mounted on one side of the boiler. There was also an optional snowplow pilot, included separately in the box.
The loco had a very small open-frame motor, and was an extemely poor runner. I replaced it with a small Sagami can motor, which was too large in diameter to allow the boiler/cab superstructure to be removed (this is a small locomotive), so I devised a way to mount the motor to the interior of the firebox. It was connected to the axle mounted worm and gear with slip-joint universals from Hobbytown: when the superstructure is removed, the motor and part of the drive shaft goes with it. Re-assembly requires the use of tweezers to align the drive train components. I crammed as much lead weight into the boiler as possible, and it's now a decent puller, for its size, and an extemely smooth runner. I've since seen several of these locos for sale at train shows: the seller claimed that all had the original motors and were good runners. These may have been a later run of the same model. Prices ranged between $300.00 and $400.00. On my loco, cosmetic changes included removal of the ATS equipment, plus different lights and handrails. I also fabricated a set of brass sunshades, to disguise the arched cab window-tops, and added a working Kadee on the pilot. The sprung Fox-style tender trucks were replaced with a pair of Vulcans, and scratchbuilt footboards were added to the rear.
Finally, here's a view (just barely) of that plow pilot, parked in front of my shops at Lowbanks. (It's behind the pump-style handcar, at the right of the photo.)
I also have an IHC 2-6-0 that I acquired later, and I did a few simple modifications to it to give it a family ressemblance to the 34. I also shortened the tender. While this is a larger and more modern loco, you may be able to detail it as a stand-in for a B&M Mogul. You could modify or replace the tender (Bachmann 10-wheeler or MDC old-timer), rework the cab windows to include an arch, and add the proper headlight, number board, and ATS box (CalScale). The piston valve cylinders could be swapped out if you can find a suitable slide valve style, or you could just overlook the discrepancies.
Sorry that I'm unable to provide info on any other B&M locos. Good luck with your search.
Wayne
Hello WilmJunc, ebay can be a good place to buy brass if you are patient enough to keep an eye on the auctions for whatever interests you (provided it shows up occasionaly) for price, condition, "rarity". I would recommend if at all possible to examine the engine in person and see it running yourself (if you buy locally).As for the various brands of brass you should realize that the older it is the more likely it might have been modified by a previous owner. If you decide to bid on an ebay auction here is a few tips:
Ask questions on condition, originality (whether it is still equipped with an open frame motor or upgraded to a can motor),look VERY closely at any photos (you would be amazed at what can be hidden in a photo clear or not),whether it has all of the parts or a tender (tenders are often a particular type for that specific locomotive or railroad and can be impossible and/or very expensive to get) missing parts can be very expensive or difficult to get.Ask the age, when it was made the older it is the less detailed it might be (no backhead detail, inferior driveline-motor,gearbox(es),drive shaft(s).If the seller doesn't mention it ask how it runs or if it does.
You can also check out some of the established brass dealers, they often have extensive websites with photos, descriptions and lists of their inventory. Often times they also sell their wares on ebay.
Painted or unpainted brass I think will be a judgement call based on the condition and quality of the paint job, the condition of the loco itself.
Taking into account the age of the locomotive and whether it has been modified or even run they can be a mixed bag, if it was a "display only" piece it will probably need cleaning and lubrication at minimum or a rebuild or some tuning of the driveline (driveshafts, valve gear, siderods)The loco will probably be noisy, jerky prone to stalling, but put a bit of effort into it and you would be surprised how well it can run with some effort and patience.
Akane, West Side Models, Sun Set Models, Balboa, Key Imports, Fujiyama,Oriental Limited, Van Hobbies (Samhongsa),Pacific Fast Mail, Nickel Plate Products,Imperial,Tenshodo are all brands that I have generally had good (dumb?) luck with, some did require some fiddling but no one brand was more prone to needing it than the rest.
I have happily dealt with the following dealers and recommend them and their websites:
Mitchell's at www.mitchells.com
Don Blacks Brass Trains at www.donblack.com
Dan's Train Depot aka BrassTrains.com, Piermont Division current inventory at www.brasstrains.com/CurrentInventory.asp
I hope I didn't scare you off (or bore you to death), good luck finding what you want and I would suggest if you have to get it worked on try doing it yourself a bit of patience and effort will have your engine running like a top and the knowledge will benefit the rest of your railroad also. Happy hunting! Andrew
Andrew:
Great post. A lot of good information.
As far as ebay, I do keep an eye on the auction, but the prices seem to always go way above what I've seen similar items listed for at dealers. Many times these ebay items are being sold from someone that is located a few thousand miles away so seeing the locomotive run before purchasing it is impossible.
A site/group that might come in handy when planning/deciding whether to revamp or replace a drive train is the Yahoo Repower and Regear Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/repowerandregear/). Joining the group and searching through their archives is a wealth of info about model locomotive drive trains.
Fred W
Dittoes to everything said above. Let me add a couple of thoughts. I like PFM for consistent quality, both in detail and operation. I have had good luck with Westside and Key. I consider Sunset a step down, but still good quality. It seems overpriced at some dealers, but you can do better on ebay if you don't get carried away with the bidding. Of course that is true with any brand.
I recently bought on ebay a Key NYC 4-8-2. It was unpainted. Rather than paint it myself I went the pro route. I contracted with a dealer in your backyard, Bill Callahan, Gardner, MA, to paint and install DCC and lighting at a cost of $260. Considering the results, it was a bargain. If you decide on pro paint, plan to be patient because it will take a while. I waited 20 weeks. But good painters have a backlog of work and good quality takes time. It was tough to wait that long, but in the end it was well worth it.
Even if you decide to paint your own, I still recommend you check out Bill's shop at www.bcenterpriseinc.com. Currently he has a B&M 4-8-2 in stock that is worth a look. He will give you good advice if you need it and good service, too.
That near-advertisement was unsolicited and I am in no way related to BC, except as a satisfied customer.
For brass importers, Stay away from:GemAlco ModelsTenshodoHallmarkEmpire
Be wary of:NJ/Custom BrassPacific Fast Mail (PFM)SunsetOrientalModel Engineering Works (MEW)
Feel good about:Overland (OMI)KeyPrecision Scale (PSC)W&RMTSRailworks/Railway Classics
What I mean about the above is that when I say "stay away", you better unless you can get it real cheap (and I mean really cheap), and that you have the skill to rebuild it if needed.
When I say "be wary", be advised that quality of these importers varies... Some are excellent (my NJ/Custom Brass NH I-4 Pacific and L-1 Santa Fe are great runners), while some are icky (my NJ/Custom Brass NH I-5 Hudson). You may need some tweaking skills to get these to run correctly. Figure that you're going to spend some money on these, but not too much.
When I say "feel good about", I mean that these, with rare exceptions, are good to great running models. Almost all of them need no modification to run well. Figure on spending top dollar for these model importers...but they are usually worth it.
About paint: If possible, get "Factory Paint" (FP). These are the best. The next grade down is what most call "Custom Paint" (CP). These are professional quality paint jobs, as you can tell it's not a Factory job but it still looks good. Then you have "Owner Painted" (OP), which can mean anything from a poor decal job to a model that was painted with a 5" brush...with automotive paint. Ick. Last, of course, is Unpainted (UP), but it will cost you easily $100 or more (some go for $150, some $200...it depends) for a custom painter to paint it for you. Figure that into your cost of the model when choosing.
As for model rebuilding, you'd best talk to some of the bigger brass dealers who do that kind of thing. An NWSL regearing kit usually costs about $50 alone, plus the guy's time to do the work, etc.
The only book that I know about is called the Brown Book. Supposedly a price listing of every brass model ever made...but it hasn't been updated in a decade.
Since you live here in Mass., I recommend you trying to get to the Springfield Show at the end of January (27th and 28th) at the Big E. There are many brass dealers there where you can browse. The biggest of which is The Caboose in Wolcott, CT. He's got a good website at: www.thecaboose.com
Armand (the Caboose's owner) is very fair. You won't get much of a deal from him, but you won't get shafted, either. I have purchased most of my brass from him. A good dealer to buy from. And since he's based in New England, he does get a lot of B&M and NH models in. He also offers a repair and rebuilding service for brass.
Paul A. Cutler III*************Weather Or No Go New Haven*************
WilmJunc wrote: I’m modeling Boston & Maine in HO (DCC) during the transition era. The problem is trying to find prototypical steam locomotives. Based on research, B&M had few if any USRA locomotives, and there steam engines had unique features (arched cab windows for instance), that other roads did not have. Consequently, manufacturers very rarely make B&M steam, and if they do, it is not very prototypical. That being said, another option is to purchase used brass models. Based on internet searches, there are some used B&M steam brass models out there, but the cost is usually in the neighborhood of $500. Brass on ebay usually goes for more than prices you see in specialty shops. Without knowing much about brass, I am not willing to pay $500 for what could be an inferior product.
OK, here's my take on brass steam, based on my own experiences with them.
First off, I'm an operator, not a collector. I'm also very interested in making my engines, whether brass, white metal or plastic, look as close to specific engines as I can (and I have a keener eye than many). The combination of these two biases means that I'm nowhere near a brass purist. What I've done to some brass models would make hardcore brass collectors shriek in horror.
I redetail brass. I strip and repaint brass. I swap tenders around. I add engine-specific detailing, and am merciless in disassembling brass engines. I'll gut a brass engine and throw away what was inside, replacing it with can motors and NWSL gear towers. Worst yet, I'll add (gasp!) PLASTIC detailing to a brass engine! In short, any steam engine model to me is nothing more than raw material.
I've got three brass engines on my workbench as we speak. Two are late 1970s Key NKP USRA clones that I'm reworking for a friend, and one's an older United IC 2-8-0 (the model that was the inspiration for Bachmann's grounbreaking Spectrum model). The Key Mikes have a street price of $600 each and the United a price of $350. I've tried to tel their owners to sell the engines and let me rework a newer plastic engine instead, because the engines are so horribly wrong. Dip them in black paint, put them on a poorly lit layout, and stare at them from across the room, and they look like the engines they're supposed to represent. But get close and they're horriffic travesties of modeling. Seriously, they suck. They're so wrong in so many ways that it'll take me all of next year to put them right. I have to strip them down to the bare boilers and completely redo their detailing. At least the Key engines run well; the United is almost a lost cause, and even needs new drivers! After these engines are done, I'll return to my own brass projects: a $500 brass engine that needs a new motor, tender, and detailing, and a couple of plastic USRA Mike conversions.
Why would I bother stripping a $500 brass engine down to it's bare boiler and drive train, just to rework it to my own specifications? Simple: I'm modeling a specific prototype; the Nickel Plate Road's mainline between Peoria and Bloomington, Illinois, during 1949 and 1950. I know which engines ran on the line at the time, I have photos of all of them from that time period, and I'm a raving mad steam fanatic. I also prefer the craftsman side of this hobby, meaning that I spend more time at the workbench than running trains.
Because my focus is so narrow, and because I'm so picky, I've yet to find ANY model steam engine that's 100% ready to add to my roster out of the box. That includes plastic steam, Bowser kits, and pricey brass. I love used brass. It's relatively inexpensive (considering that it's sometimes the only way short of scratchbuilding an engine to get what you want), usually runs well, and is usually a solid and dependable model. That said, I've seen some HORRIBLE older brass engines in my day, and have seen nothing made before about 1990 that I can't detail as well or better.
Am I exclusively a brass fan? Nope. If I can get something in plastic that runs as well or better out of the box, and will give me a good starting point for superdetailing, I don't bother with brass. I used to have a decent fleet of five Oriental NKP 2-8-4s. As soon as I was able to run a new P2K 2-8-4, I sold all five brass engines to buy eight of the plastic. About the only brass I have these days are engines that I canb't or don't have the time to scratchbuild: non-USRA Mikadoes, a couple of 2-8-0s, and a NKP Hudson. If anyone ever comes out with any of those engines in plastic, I'll sell those too (except for the couple that I've already finished reworking)
So the first thing you need to ask yourself is WHY you want to jump into the brass engine market. Do you want completely correct B&M steam? Do you think that brass might run longer, last longer, or outpull modern lastic models? Do you want to start collecting pristene brass models? Alternatively, how big of a B&M an are you? Will you be happy with less than perfect representations of the prototype? Do you have an endless budget to spend on a custom reworked, remotored, and repainted B&M steam fleet, or can you live with "lesser" models that you've worked on yourself (at a considerable saving in money, if not time)?
In my eyes, manufacturers don't matter at ALL. I've seen good models by virtually all manufacturers, and bad ones. The important thing is to familiarize yourself with your prototype and then decide how close a model actually looks to the prototype. If it's close, it's fair game. If it runs well, all the better (but emotoring brass is pretty straightforward).
It depends: how good is the paint job? Brass manufacturers screw up paint schemes all the time, so just because it's factory painted is no guarantee that it's a CORRECT paint job.
How much is dinner? An amateur will quote low, an artist will quote high
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
Ray, some great information and some good advice in your well-considered reply. I totally agree with you about plastic steamers: much easier to work on and most can be made to both look and run better than brass, for a fraction of the cost. And while some of us may be interested in rebuilding/reworking our models to meet our own specific standards, there are many out there who are quite content if someone brings out a generic model with their favourite roadname on it, and they may or may not care how it runs.
By the way, thanks for the compliment; it's much appreciated.
WilmJunc,
I think you and I are in the same boat here. I also model the Boston & Maine Late Steam, early diesel time frame. I have been pretty successful in building a sizeable collection on B&M early diesel. Anything from FT's, F-2's, F-3's and F-7's, E-7's, Bl-2's, GP-7's GP-9's, GP-18's, RS-3's, S-1's, S-2's S-4's and SW-9's.
I have spent some time now building my steam collection up. I agree with you about the number of offerings and availability of B&M Steam, there simply isn't much. What I have found is that if you want the real thing, you have 2 choices. Buy something "close" and kit bash the heck out of it, or be prepaired to drop some coin on some brass. I decided to take the jump into brass. Before I go into the brass part, I should tell you that there are a few offerings out there that you may want to consider in terms of plastic steamers for the B&M.
P2K has made 2 different road numbers of their 0-8-0 "herritage" steamers in B&M, I have both. They also have released undecorated examples of their 0-6-0 "herritage" steamer that can easily be decaled up to B&M, again I have 2. Bachmann has released 2 road numbers of their 2-8-0 in their "spectrum" line, I have both. These are not exact examples of what the B&M ran, but they are fairly close. The last plastic B&M steamer I have is an IHC 2-10-2. This model is not even close to what the B&M ran, the tender is not even close, but I've got to tell you in all honesty, she runs pretty nicely. I've heard tons of bad things about IHC products, but this new 2-10-2 is pretty sweet. I put a decoder in it and she performs well and pulls pretty well.
In the Brass catagory, I have been able to get my hands on a PFM 2-6-0 B-15. It doesn't run and is currently in the shop being remotored, regeared, DCC converted with a Tsunami, having an LED headlight installed and painted. Next into the shop will be my Gem Models 4-8-2, R-1d to receive the same treatment. Once this is done, I will be sending in my Westside 2-8-4 Berkshire to again receive the same treatment. When that is done, I will send in my Sunset 2-8-0 K-8b, again to receive the same treatment. All of the brass I've listed here were models done of exact B&M steamers. The last one I have to send in is not an exact copy of a B&M steamer, but it is as close as I could find. I have a Sunset 4-6-2 light Pacific that will sent in last to receive the work up treatment. You should also know that BLI has announced that they will be releasing a 4-6-2 Pacific next summer in B&M, and that Roundhouse models (Atheran) has just announced that they will be releasing a 2-6-0 in the spring.
I might also mention that of all the brass I've listed above, I have yet to spend over $400.00 for any 1 item. To me, it's not super important that an older piece of brass be working perfectly because I operate DCC. Each piece that I purchase needs to be remotored (sometimes regeared) and have a decoder installed to run on DCC. If the model doesn't work when I buy it, no big deal. I have to rip the guts out of it anyway. I'd honestly rather save some $$$ and buy a hard to find brass B&M steamer that doesn't run and turn that savings around to reinvest in on the follow on work.
Michael
Michael:
It does sound like we are in the same boat. Wow, there has been a wealth of great information on this post. Thank you to everyone that has responded.
Yes the B&M diesels have been quite easy to obtain. I have the FT, F7, RS-2, RS-3, 44 Ton, S-4, and BL-2 so far.
As far as the PK2s, they are nice models but I believe that they USRA locos and I have not found historical information showing that B&M had USRA switchers. I did purchase a IHC Mogul last year just so that I could have steam on the layout. I thought that it was cheaply built, it was a pain to convert to DCC, and the tender was not even close to prototype. The Bachman Consolidation was also not that close to prototype.
I'm glad to that BLI and Roundhouse are coming out with some B&M models. We'll see how close they look to real.
It sounds like you have been able to collect a fair amount of brass at under $400. What has been your best source?