Traction wheels Good , Bad or in different?

[cudaken]

I know what I want but not sure if I have the room for a track to rises 6 to 8 inches on a bench work that would be around 6' x 7'. That is not all of the bench, just what I want to add to what I have.

For what I want to do and the sizes I have to work with I would needed around 4% grade.

I have been told traction wheels would and would not hurt the engines. Main engines are PK1's and PK2's 12 wheel drive. All so have Blue Box Athearn older 12 wheel drive.

Just wonder what you folks think and have happened to your engines.

Cuda Ken

[Benjamin Maggi]

Not even sure if you can equip older Athearn engines with traction tires, but I know they used to sell some engines (at least an F Unit) as "super powered", which meant a heavier weight.

By the way, 4% is really pushing it!

Also, is your name really Cuda, or do you like Barricudas? I ask because my dream car is a 1970 Barricuda Hemi convertible (like the one in Nash Bridges [:)])

[Anonymous]

Any axle that has traction tires won't pick up electricity so I wouldn't want them on even ONE axle. Also, P1/2K are some of the best pullers on the market. Remember- it isnt exactly protptypical for a F3 to pull 35 cars up a 4% grade. What type of motive power are you running? how many cars CAN you pull up the 4% grade?

[Anonymous]

To get 6 inches of rise, you typically want to have about 300 inches/25ft of horizontal travel (that will give you 2% grade, which most locos can negotiate pretty well). You probably can't squeeze in that much horizontal track in a 6x7 layout.

If you really want to push it and go 4% grade (which is the never-should-be-exceeded maximum), it works out to 6 inches rise per 150 inches (12.5ft) of horizontal travel.. You should be able to squeeze that into a 6x7 layout by putting your mainline in a dogbone arrangement, but I wouldn't recommend it.

You can put me in the "against" camp in regards to traction tires. Reduced electrical pickup, increased risk of motor stall/burnout (as opposed to metal wheels which spin in place when stalled), increased maintenance, unprototypical, yadda yadda.

[Anonymous]

Traction wheels used to e the domain of cheaper engines, especially in N scale. However, I've heard somewhere that one of the HO "big-guns" (BLI or someone) either equips or has the option to equip their locomotives with traction tires. But I'd rather have the electrical pickup.

[Virginian]

Well, put me in the protraction tire camp, but I am 90%+ steam as well. Unless a model was originally equipped with traction tires, it would be rather expensive and complicated to convert one correctly, as you need grooves in the wheels for the tires.
BTW, I get about 1 inch rise or more per running foot on your grades listed above (6 to 8 inches on a bench work that would be around 6' x 7'), and that is about 8%+ as far as I know. I would advise scrapping that track plan, traction tires or not.

[Pruitt]

I have several BLI steamers, and they come with an extra driver set with traction tires. I've installed them and they work great. No problem with electrical pickup.

dingoix is right - it isn't exactly prototypical for an F3 to pull 35 cars up a 4% grade. Then again, it isn't exactly prototypical for it to be taking curves of (in HO) 18, 24 or even 36-inch radius, either. So if you need a 4% grade to get the vertical height you want, you're every bit as prototypical as most of the rest of us.

Virginian is right about the conversion being possibly tricky, and it may require some machining to get grooves in the wheels for the tires. But if you want to tackle that, here's a couple of suggestions: 1. On six-axle diesels, do the center axle on one of the trucks. It will be the most stable and provide the most rail grip, as the wheels on either side will stabilize the truck and will limit the traction tire's tendancy to lift slightly as it tries to grip the rail; 2. If electrical contact becomes an issue (it shouldn't), add a pair of Tomar contact shoes (if they're still available). I had to add some to my diesels when I was using a Keller Engineering Onboard control system years ago, and they worked wonders for track pickup. They're not that hard to do, either.

Anyway, good luck and keep us up to date on what you decide, OK?

[Berk-fan284]

I am also pro traction tires they aren't a license to load up your locomotive(s) with every train car in sight. As previously posted you can overload (stall) your engines, stretch and/or throw the traction tire. For a comparison I have a Rivarossi Allegheny (2-6-6-6) that would pull about 17 cars (Athearn blue box, Roundhouse) and spin like a 1960's era dragster, with the traction tires installed (on the appropriate drivers) it pulled 43 cars (same types) without any wheelspin (I didn't put any more on than that because I was too lazy to put any more of them on). The first release Lifelike Proto 2000 Berkshire (no traction tires) spins it's drivers with just 14 cars, my Rivarossi Berkshire (with traction tires) will easily pull 24 cars and it's not spinning the wheels at all. PS: That was a very nice looking 69 Charger R/T on the bottom of one of your previous posts, yours?

[Tom Bryant_MR]

I would err on the advice of others here - 4% is pretty steep. On the question of traction, and I understand that you already have the engines, I recently purchased a P2K SW8 w/sound that came with traction tires. It will not traverse a Code 83 DCC WS TO in the forward direction ... until I took the traction tires off. There is a thread on this particular engine and while Walthers is suggesting problems with power pickup etc. the fact remains - with traction, does not work for anyone - without traction works like a charm.

So, you are right in asking and researching - as your milage may vary.

[joeyegarner]

4% is a doable grade, not an easy one but doable. The main problem with it is the variation in speed up and down it. I usally use at least 2 locos on trains and it works ok. But Im doing this in a 9X9 space and it still looks ok, but in 6 or 7 thats a lot of change in a little space...Before you do it I beleive I would reconsider and find another way to accomplish what I want. Just my 2cents.

[Anonymous]

I gotta agree with you there. You need all the pickups you can get.

QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix

Any axle that has traction tires won't pick up electricity so I wouldn't want them on even ONE axle. Also, P1/2K are some of the best pullers on the market. Remember- it isnt exactly protptypical for a F3 to pull 35 cars up a 4% grade. What type of motive power are you running? how many cars CAN you pull up the 4% grade?

[ARTHILL]

I have some 4% and they are a tolerable problem. I also wanted great vertical seperation. I have a BLI mikado with a traction tire and I love it. To get my coal drag around, I prefer to double or triple head some steamers. With my DCC and three throttles that is fun and a true challenge. I haven't tried it yet with three opperators. My biggest problem area is 4% on an 18 inch curve. I designed the layout for logging. I wasn't expecting the big contract to bring a coal train through, but 20 MPH is prototypical anyway.

[CNJ831]

As one poster mentioned upstream, traction tires originated with toy trains too poorly designed and weighted to pull any reasonable load. I feel it is disturbing to today see their return on supposedly quality locomotives. Clearly, their manufacturers feel these items they are offering at a premium price were designed too light to do a proper job.

As others have indicated, traction tires are an ill-conceived idea which can result in decreased electrical contact, damage to the motor, and the throwing of a traction tire on a steamer can put that engine out-of-service for an extended period because of the complexity of replacement.

CNJ831

[cudaken]

Scoobster28, Cuda is my nick name I got about 10 years ago. I have a 70 Cuda. Funny I got Cuda Ken as the nick name, being a 68 Road Runner owner now for 33 years.

Berk-fan284, yes that is my 69 Charger R/T or I like to think of it M/P for money pit.

Back to the subject of the traction wheels. Thanks for all the feed back.

My main engines are PK2 E-6's and Erie Bulit A and B's all powered and do pull well.

I am not in a hurry to go up a 4% grade, still think out loud about the next bench work.

Guess what got me hooked on the idea are the MR Magazines that show one line about 43 scale feet above a lower line. I don't have any pic to post but I am sure you folks have seen them.

I wonder if the upper lines come down to the main line or if they are there own separate lines.

Thanks for all the answers.

Cuda Ken

[Virginian]

"traction tires originated with toy trains too poorly designed and weighted to pull any reasonable load. I feel it is disturbing to today see their return on supposedly quality locomotives."
Smugly stated. So, what's your take on the prototypical electrical motor drives on todays steam models?
I like traction tires, and love the manufacturers who provide the option to the purchaser to use them or not as they see fit. Because of a number of factors, getting a model steam engine to pull at or close to the prototypical equivalent is not easily done using metal tired wheels. Part of this is due to using corrosion resistant materials and smooth finishes to promote the aforementioned electrical conductivity. When the utilization of traction tires is executed properly, I have extensive experience with those engines running well and providing zero problems for years. Even when not executed properly I have found the problems to be easily corrected in most cases. Perhaps the electrical conductivity issues alluded to are caused by poor trackwork rather than loco design.

[twhite]

I know a lot of purists will disagree with me, but if I happen to buy a new steamer with traction tires, I just leave them on. I've got a maximum 2.4% grade on a short stretch of my Yuba River Sub, and I need all the power I can get to haul a 20+ car train over it. If the loco will do it solo, fine. If not, I'll double-head. Most of my older power is brass (no traction tires) but I've re-weighted and re-balanced most of my older brass power, so there's not much of a problem there.
I do have a Rivarossi Allegheny that I run frequently, and the traction tires came off. Instead of replacing them, I just left them off, and oddly enough, I haven't noticed any reduction in pulling power at all.
One thing that nobody's mentioned yet, is the fact that the radius of your curves will have a great deal to do with just how many cars you can pull, anyway. The larger the radius, the less resistance your loco will encounter with a train. My minimum radius is 34" and my minimum grade is about 1.5%, so I think that has a great deal to do with just how many cars my locos can pull at any given time, traction tires or not.
Tom [:D]