Tsunami and Digitrax DH163 in a Bowser Loco

[scubaterry]

I have a Bowser 2-8-2 kit on order. I had planned on putting a Tsunami decoder in it. After reading another thread about the stall current of the DC-71 Bowser motor I realized I would have to change my way of thinking. I emailed Bowser they say the DC-71 (upgraded DCC version) has up to 1.5 amp stall current @ 14v. The Tsunami is only 1.0 amp. So my idea is to put a Digitrax 163 (1.5 amp 2 max) in the loco for motor and front light control and the Tsunami in the tender for sound and rear light. I will leave the motor leads of the Tsunami unwired. One big advantage of this setup is I will only need ONE wire going from Loco to Tender (assuming I have room in loco for motor decoder). My question is (I have emailed Soundtraxx with same question) What func/abilities of the Tsunami will I loose by eliminating the motor leads and using the 163 for motor control? I don't think it will be noticible. Any comments on this setup. When Soundtraxx comes out with the 2 amp version I could always upgrade. Of course I suspect with the motor decoder in the loco and the sound in the tender the wiring will be much easier so I may just stick with it.
Thanks any ideas comments welcomed.
Terry[8D]

[Paul3]

I think would lose any motor contol that Soundtraxx provides, but gain any that the DH163 provides. The chuff rate rate is set using the throttle%, which the Soundtraxx decoder will still "see" because it's still connected and receiving commands. I don't see you losing much of anything, honestly. A fellow member of my club was using a DH163 to power his Trix Big Boy, with sound provided by an old Soundtraxx decoder (he has since replaced it with a Lok Sound decoder...).

My biggest concern would be with Bower's gear growl drowning out the sound decoder.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
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[scubaterry]

Paul - Supposedly the new upgraded DC-71 is quieter than the older version. Can' t say for sure because I have never heard a Bowser loco. I have a nice three inch by one inch three watt oval speaker that will just fit into the tender. I suspect I can win a noise war with the motor if required.[:D]

My only other option would be to go with a DSX for sound. I would rather have the Tsunami of course. I think it will work just fine. tks for the input.
Terry[8D]

[Darth Santa Fe]

Terry, your plan should work fine. Separating the sound decoder from the motor should get rid of the risk of blowing the decoder.[:D]

Paul, I'm pretty sure Bowser's reduced the noise level of the gears in their engines. My Challenger is noisy, but it has double drives in it. When I was building it, I ran only the first set of drivers, and the gears were nice and quiet.[:D] My A-5 0-4-0 makes no gear noise at all.[:D]

[tpatrick]

Would you consider a can motor and a new gearbox? That would upgrade your drive and allow you to use the all-Tsunami system. I think that would be a better solution.

[scubaterry]

Darth - Tks for the assurance. Do you have sound in your Challenger (thats my next Bowser loco)? If so what did you use?

Tpatrick - Actually I have contacted the Helix Humper folks and they say the HH draws less than 1/2 amp so that would be an option. However now that Bowser has updated/upgraded the DC-71 motor I would much rather have it. It is a very powerful motor and I really don't want to have to go thru the frame mod and all that is associated with a diff motor. Not to mention another 40 bucks.
Terry[8D]

[scubaterry]

David - I didn't egnore you. I checked out the site you gave me. Thanks for your input. I really want to stay with the DC-71 motor if I can as it is more powerful. I have a found a handful of manufacturers that make a replacement motor for the DC-71 but none are as powerful. With a loco and tender that weighs almost two pounds I want all the power I can get. If I did go with a replacement motor I would go with the Helix Humper.

As far as blowing a digitrax decoder on the DC-71 I doubt it. The digitrax 163 decoder has a 1.5a, 2a surge rating. More than enough for the newer version of the Bowser motor. I will not be wiring up the motor leads on the Tsunami It will only be picking up track voltage. So again blowing up the Tsunami isn't going to happen.

Sorry I offended you.
Terry[8D]

[Darth Santa Fe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

Darth - Tks for the assurance. Do you have sound in your Challenger (thats my next Bowser loco)? If so what did you use?

I don't have any sound in the Challenger, except for the noise of the double drives.[:D] I can't afford sound, so I don't buy it.

I'm not sure which sound system would sound most like a Challenger, but if you have all twelve drivers in sync well enough, a sound system for a large steam engine should sound fine. I don't know of any that work for articulated steam engines, so that's why the drive wheels have to be in sync with eachother.

If you buy the Monogram/Revell/Con-Cor Big Boy kit and Bowser powering kit for the Big Boy tender, so you can power the Chellenger, there should be plenty of room in the tender for a fairly large sound system. There's a lot of empty space in those Monogram tenders![:D]

[scubaterry]

Darth - The large steam Tsunami has the option of an articulated steam engine. I just installed one in a Big Boy and it sounds real nice. The monogram you were talking about? Can I just get the tender? Do you have a website I can check out? One last ? do you run DC or DCC? If DCC what decoder are you using for the Challenger? With two DC-71's that would pull a lot of current. Wondering if I would have to put a digitrax decoder on each motor and assign them the same address?
Terry[8D]

[cmarchan]

Scubaterry,

The DC-71 motor is not the only motor capable of driving this unit. Look for the latest motors from NWSL or Mashima ; It is worth replacing the motor with a can motor. They are more powerful than you think. Don't let the low current rating dissuade you. DC-71's and efficient can motors do not compare that way. Try the can motor. You wont be dissappointed. You will gain less need to clean wheels and contacts and smoother running at lower speeds.

[cmarchan]

QUOTE: By Scubaterry As far as blowing a digitrax decoder on the DC-71 I doubt it. The digitrax 163 decoder has a 1.5a, 2a surge rating. More than enough for the newer version of the Bowser motor. I will not be wiring up the motor leads on the Tsunami It will only be picking up track voltage. So again blowing up the Tsunami isn't going to happen.

Tim Maslin from Digistar and I have discussed this at length; The Digitrax rating for the DH163 decoder is slightly higher that situations dictate. In many cases it has been his and my experience if the motor rated at 1.5A actually stalls, the risk of damage is great because the H-Bridge drivers used in these decoders are not rated for 1.5 amperes; using these in older Athearn BB units will root this out, for example. Spikes caused by commutator contacts breaking the connection as the armature rotates could also cause issue. This is not a slam of Digitrax in any way. This is a report of actual experience from two electronics technicians - one of which is in the DCC business. I use DH163 decoders; They have good characteristics; however I use them in locos where the stall current is less than one ampere. I have no problems with that configuration.

[rexhea]

Terry,
If you do not have your Tsunami connected to the motor, then my thoughts are that you will eliminate the use of RTC and BEMF dependant functions, advanced programming, and many sounds that vary by sensing the motor load and not throttle settings. I have to go along with the idea of bitting the bullet and replacing the motor.

REX

[Anonymous]

I tend to agree with the bite the bullet and replace the motor gang. My Bowser Mountain never ran better than it did with a helix humper conversion kit. You said you didn't want to spend the 40 bucks, but if you go with the Tsunami, and the Humper,your gonna save the money you would have spent on the Digitrax decoder.

[scubaterry]

Dagnabit, I thought this was going to be an easy decision to make.

Carl - I tend to agree with you on the 163. I have an old but new in box Athearn BB F7. I converted it to DCC. And after running for about thrity minutes it quit working. I noticed a small burnt area on the decoder. I broke out the multi-meter and double checked everything once again. All looked good. I put another decoder in and I now have another 163 with a tiny burnt mark on it. I removed this one before it fried so it still is working for the moment anyway. So that loco went into the box for a future remotoring job. I guess I will bite the bullet and get the HH. They emailed me back saying the HH has less than .5 amp draw. The only down side is I was looking forward to only having one wire come from the loco to the tender with the 163 in the loco. Oh well.

How much modification does the HH require. I see on the website you have to remove some frame points to make it fit.
Terry[8D]

[rexhea]

Good decision, Terry. You sure don't want to cut out any of the great features of the Tsunami. I really enjoy mine and love the many programming varibles to get exactly what you need.

REX[;)][8D]

[grayfox1119]

Why not use a zener diode and clamp the stall current?

[scubaterry]

*** - I suppose that would work but just replacing the motor is the right thing to do. I don't want to risk my investment in the Tsunami.

Anyone have the Bowser Challenger with DCC? (Darth?) How would you approach this problem with a dual motor loco? I will upgrade the two DC-71s to HH but how about motor/sound control. Even two HH will draw close to an amp. Could you put a motor decoder on one motor and the tsunami on the other. But how would you syncronize the two motors? One might pull harder than the other and you wouldn't be able to tell unlike two distinct locos you are programming for a consist? I haven't bought the BOwser Challenger yet but I would like to address the potential problems now so any help is appreciated.
Terry[8D]

[cmarchan]

QUOTE: by Grayfox1119 Why not use a zener diode and clamp the stall current?
--------------------
***

One zener diode with a motor controlled by a H-Bridge?

[Darth Santa Fe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

Darth - The large steam Tsunami has the option of an articulated steam engine. I just installed one in a Big Boy and it sounds real nice. The monogram you were talking about? Can I just get the tender? Do you have a website I can check out? One last ? do you run DC or DCC? If DCC what decoder are you using for the Challenger? With two DC-71's that would pull a lot of current. Wondering if I would have to put a digitrax decoder on each motor and assign them the same address?
Terry[8D]

I didn't know there was a Tsunami for articulateds. I guess there's some truth to the phrase "you learn something new everyday."[:D]

I don't think you can get the tender only from the Monogram Big Boy. Some of the tender parts are on the same parts trees as the engine parts. There is an advantage to getting the whole Big Boy, though.[:D] I was able to make a very nice interior for my Challenger using the BB parts.[:D]

I've since added grab irons and the Big Boy drop step to the back, and painted the screws.[:D]

I'm sorry, but I don't have a website. Being a member of this forum is the closest thing I've got to a website so far.[:)]

I run DC.

The Challenger only has one motor in it, which drives the rear drive, then has a shaft going to the front so it can run the front drive. So far, Bowser's only two-motor engine is the T-1 4-4-4-4, which I hope to get someday.[:D] If you have an Adobe Acrobat reader on your computer, you can look at the instructions for the Challenger on Bowser's website.[:D]
http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/challenger/100320.pdf

[scubaterry]

Darth thanks for the info. The large steam Tsunami has the ability to program an articuIated engine like the Big Boy or the Challenger. don't know where I got the idea the Challenger had two motors. That actually then is a good thing. I will just plan on putting a Helix Humper in it as well. The website I was referring to was for the Monogram (sp) Big Boy you referenced. Would you recommend I get the pre assembled Valve gear for the Challenger or does it just look and sound difficult to assemble. The 40 bucks might be worth it if it is a major pain to do.
Tks
Terry[8D]

[Darth Santa Fe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scubaterry

don't know where I got the idea the Challenger had two motors. That actually then is a good thing. I will just plan on putting a Helix Humper in it as well. The website I was referring to was for the Monogram (sp) Big Boy you referenced. Would you recommend I get the pre assembled Valve gear for the Challenger or does it just look and sound difficult to assemble. The 40 bucks might be worth it if it is a major pain to do.

I don't think there are any Helix Humpers that will fit the Challenger and run both drive systems, but you may be able to use a double shafted one, make your own mount, put a flywheel on the back only, and put a worm on the front of the motor for the rear drive while leaving some shaft left on the front to run the front drive. Or you could just use one of their motors for another Bowser engine and just have a dummy front drive. It should still be powerful enough to pull a good size load.[:D]

If you're very good at using the rivets, the valve gear isn't that hard to assemble.[:D] It's just a little time consuming. If you're good at modifying things, then you may be able to modify it like I did, so it'll be more realistic.[:D]

[scubaterry]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Darth Santa Fe
If you're very good at using the rivets, the valve gear isn't that hard to assemble.[:D] It's just a little time consuming. If you're good at modifying things, then you may be able to modify it like I did, so it'll be more realistic.[:D]

Oh Crap[xx(]

Well I guess I 'll be keeping in touch[:D]
Terry[8D]