Thinking About A British Side Layout

[METRO]

Alright all, I could use a bit of help.

I'm toying with the idea of building a small British layout in OO, probably a 4'x'8' set in current times. Now I've always loved the heavy passenger nature of Brit railroading, would I be able to run some commuter passenger, as well as some industrial shunting, on such a small layout and have it be not toy-like?

Also, my four things I'd like to include would be (in order of importaince)
1: commuter passenger operations
2: industrial shunting
3: run-through distance passenger
4: local freight operations
Does anyone have any ideas for a prototypical area where I could have those?

Finally, I've been looking on the Hornby website at all those wonderful British models avalible to everyone except those in the United States and Canada, does anyone know where I'd be able to get UK equipment here in the USA (Milwaukee) or in Canada (Toronto) or websites that would ship to the states.

Thanks mates!
Cheers!
~METRO

[Anonymous]

Ignoring the fact that I hate 4'x8's...

The big question is "What era"?
The next big issue is whether you want to have an American style railroad with British (regional) trains or a British railway company type of railway with a Briti***ype of track plan and British working. There is a vast difference.

Briti***rack is divided into Block Sections between Station Limits with ALL yards segregated to their own areas. Industrial switching occurs on lines further segregated.
You could make a good representation of this on a (dreaded) 8x4 if you were prepared to do some research and accept limitations. It is extremely rare for anyone in the UK to do a spaghetti bowl design... I just happen to live 400yards from a tiny club that does.

If you want modern era you can forget industrial switching: trains are basically block trains in MGR (merry-go-round) service. As in the US they often don't actually stop to load/unload. Again there is NO local freight.
Prototype area? EAK!
You could look at anywhere around London... with at least eight different Companies and different ways of applying the same principles. Then there's Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield to York inclusive, Hull, Nescastle on Tyne, Stoke on Trent, Bristol... someone's going to be annoyed because I've missed them out...
BUT, again, this depends on era. Up to the 60s all of these would have had most of your requirements and included steam, diesel and even electric...

Would you want to do 3rd rail electric, 4th rail or overhead? You get all of these round London and at least one of each in various other big built up areas. Electrification started in the 1900-1910 period.

Again British Railways are very distinct in their signalling... it can't look right without it. Would you want to go for colour light or semaphore?

Are you aware that we run left handed the same as we drive?

believe it or not I'm not trying to put you off. I am trying to introduce you to some of the ideas you will want to consider if you want to "have it not be toy like".

Can you escape from the 8x4? Please?

British railways are about the most country-specific and even region specific in the world... followed by the lines we built in the colonies. If you go into Europe you will find distinctive signalling and stock by country but the layout of track and workings are much more similar to each other and even to the US.

Hope this helps you to develop your ideas.

OOPS! Read the Question!
You say current times.
Well I've already blown out most industrial and local frieght. Are you looking at Pendolinos? On 8x4 they'd look like a rat in a hurry to find a drainpipe. Intense suburban is mostly electric... probably mostly electric... probably about 2/3 3rd rail or fourth because London is so big... and you don't get Pendolinos from the Thames right round the South East to at least Portsmouth.

Most places you'd get Pendolinos (Birmingham and Manchester for a start) the commuter service is largely clapped-out diesel Multiple Units.

Someone over here is going to just LOVE me!

You could have real fun with a layout though... thinking about it most of the current scene that fits what you describe is two tracks with vandalised platforms both sides at intervals. The signalling is primarily automatic colour light to keep the trains apart. Passenger would (roughly) alternate between two or three commuter locals and an express (possibly going slower than the locals) with frieghts running largely fixed sets off peak and at night. There would also be a mass of Pway (MoW) movements as Network Rail spend a fortune rebuilding the system.

Now you know why we mainly model pre-Privatisation at least if not pre 1960 and why I've gone American.

Have fun.

[edkowal]

One of the main ways to keep from having your layout appear toylike is by not attempting to do too many things at once. The British approach differs from that of many Americans in that there seems to be more emphasis on context, often at the expense of dense trackwork. There's much less of an attempt to get "everything but the kitchen sink" into your layout.

You can gain a better idea of what I'm trying to convey by visiting the many websites which feature British layouts, or by buying some of the British magazines: Model Railway Journal (MRJ) and Railway Modeller are two of the most prominent. Two sites which can help you find modeller's websites are TrainNet's International Railway Links: http://www.tadlane.com/rrlinks.htm and RailServe: http://www.railserve.com/ In addition to modeller's sites, these two directories also contain links to British prototype sites.

To do a good job, you'll want to become familiar with British prototype practice. The magazines mentioned above, and books from British publishers are your best bet. The ads in the magazines, and the articles themselves will refer you to books on the appropriate subjects.

-Ed

P.S. Almost forgot, one of the key differences between the two prototypes, American and British, is in the track. Much of Briti***rackwork is bullhead rail set in chairs on the sleepers (ties) rather than American style rail spiked down. The design of switchwork also can be very different in appearance. Briti***urnouts tend to be much more flowing. Curved turnouts are very prevalent, and gives a British style layout one of its most diagnostic characteristics.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I think I read somewhere that Hornby bit the dust.

[ereimer]

have a look at this list
http://www.railscanada.com/links/Mail_Order_and_Hobby_Shops/
there are several obvious sources , but many canadian MR shops will have some UK models

[edkowal]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffrey-wimberly

I think I read somewhere that Hornby bit the dust.

Hornby is blissfully unaware of that "fact." They have an active website, with a list of releases to be made in 2006. The latest update to that website carries today's date (5-15-06). See: http://www.hornby.com/pages/newreleases2007685_1.aspx

-Ed

[METRO]

Instead of a 4'x8' I could to a 10' to 15' point to point I guess, it's just been quite a while since I've done a traditonal old 4'x8'. Haha call it sentimental attachment to the old plywood in my dad's basement growing up.

I was unaware of the Brit trackage difference there Ed, thanks. Also thanks to David for explaining as much as you have, haha it feels odd to be a novice again but I'll take all the help I can get.

Anyways, I'd probably want do to an area outside of the London metro, or do a London third-rail as stringing the wires was never my strong point (I once tried to model the American North East Corridor and it wasn't too pretty) The locomotives that are most easily attainable for me, after just a few pecursory searches of local hobby shops in town appear to be Class 08 shunters and Class 60 freight diesels. Passenger equipment I'm probably going to have to send away for or pick up the next time I'm visiting the family up in Toronto.

I'm actually more interested in modeling the period after privatization purely for exactly the operations that David described. All of my layouts thusfar (all umm two in real life but a great many that never got out of the planning stages haha) were of railroads at their prime, trim, quick, clean and shiney. However one of my favorite things to read about is real-life railroads in their decline and fall or their rebuilding periods. Railroading isn't always a pretty thing, and I think it is time I built something that shows that a bit.


Edit: I'm also quite aware that the railroads in the UK are lefthand running. My main model railroad is set in Eastern Ontario, we run them the Queen's way there too.

Cheers!
~METRO

[wjstix]

I believe Bachmann/Spectrum makes OO locomotives?? One advantage you have with the UK is size, passenger cars tend towards 60' length, freight cars also much shorter (in general) than US counterparts. It's a tempting thing, I subscribed to THE Railway Magazine for years and found it fascinating.

[Anonymous]

I was going to quote but there are sevral sources... so...

Briti***rack DID use Bullhead as standard and several makers do excellent examples BUT modern track, which would include almsot all commuter lines, would be Flat Bottom - clipped not spiked. Most of it has concrete sleepers for plain track. Points remain timber sleepered. Curved points are not common... due to Engineering issues and cost. The reason for more (and increasing) flowing arrangements of track is increasing speeds. (Whenever any length has a speed restriction the adjacent lengths become slower as slow down and speed up zones.

Very British characteristic track features were far more double track, even on minor lines, the majority of crossovers by far were trailing and junctions were made as double juntions ...even going into Single Line. Three track was rare... the US form didn't exist. Four track was either paired Up Slow, Up fast, Down Fast, Down Slow OR Up Slow, Down Slow, Up Fast, Down Fast. This showed very clearly in the signalling.

UK Signals are placed to the left of the track to which they apply or directly over it if that isn't possible. Semaphore arms stick out to the left as you see them on approach.
Until recently almost all Briti***rack (except Single Lines) was uni-directional and few stations except some very large ones had bi-directional platform lines.

The use of facing connections has vastly increased and many former double junctions have become ladder junctions. There are far more instances of bi-directional lines including some over distance. The first time you are riding a train normal road on double track and one whizzes round you on your right is pretty scarey.

London without overhead would be what was Southern with 3rd rail... but you would be limited for model availability even more than train types... mostly EMU except into Waterloo (South Western)... even that is increasingly EMU. VERY little freight at all except from the tunnel. Most of that is conatiners and autos in block trains behind class 66... hey! You like them :-).

The other London without OH would be the Western into paddington from Reading... Very nice route... largely 4 track. Further West around Didcot could be a good place to look.

Away from London Birmingham is probably your best bet.

You say...
"I'm actually more interested in modeling the period after privatization purely for exactly the operations that David described. All of my layouts thusfar (all umm two in real life but a great many that never got out of the planning stages haha) were of railroads at their prime, trim, quick, clean and shiney. However one of my favorite things to read about is real-life railroads in their decline and fall or their rebuilding periods. Railroading isn't always a pretty thing, and I think it is time I built something that shows that a bit".

This leaves me at a bit of a loss as to whether you are seeing privatised rail as run down or revitalised. Thinking about it Mr Branson and the Government would tell us one thing and the jury is generally out for everyone else. There are improvements but there were massive improvements in the last years of BR as the system was prepared to be sold off cheap. Very few people realise that the TOUs (passenger carrying franchises) continue to get far more money from government handouts than ALL of BR ever got (Per annum that is).

Basically the whole rail system was worked to death during WW2 and is only now being put back to its pre 1939 condition (we started WW2 before you did... if you hadn't noticed :-)... we also won it)! [Oops a bit of historical prejudice there].

Bachman do do British outline in 00... but BEWARE... their original stuff was BR H0... didn't last long for obvious reasons ... but some of it may still be about and it will be too small against 00 models. (Anyone find their Class 33 or British containers i would be interested).
London "metro" is a free newspaper... the Underground is ... the Underground... Tyne and Weer and Manchester have Metro systems... they are more Rapid transit systems (toy trains).

You could probably take out a sub to some of the many UK rail mags. Railway Magazine would be the best for real rail stuff. Railway Modeller is the best source of adverts (yards of them). MRJ is the high end of the model market but a bit clichey. British Railway Modelling is about MR level. There are loads of others. Ian Allan are the best rail publishers for wide spectrum. their book on signalling would give you a basic start on both signals and track layout.

Have fun.

[Anonymous]

Bother! I posted twice again.

Never mind... 08 shunters are becoming extremely rare even in freight yards where they are supposed to be used. this is causing a Helath and Safety issue between the RMT and the companies. (ASLEF aren't doing much as usual). (Historical fact not prejudice).

Increasingly signalling is from computer assisted centres and - if they ever get the Manchester -Crewe "upgrade" to work ([:D] LOL... it's 2 months late already and next month they're going to temporary working so that other lines can catch up on routine maintenance before they go back to trying to get it right again sometime around October... wonderful this new technology! In the old days you could just wander over and kick it and it would work again)... as I was saying... they are going to satelite links instead of wire.

How about satelite DCC?[}:)]

If you want to scare the willies out of the FBI, ATF, CIA etc (Is there an ETC agency?) you could get a model of an atomic flask. Currently they're being hauled by really ropey sounding Class 37... I've never understood why they run them behind the most knackered locos. For a long time they ran them behind paired Class 20s when they were no longer used for anything else. Maybe they figure that they won't lose so much value of loco if the thing goes BANG! [;)]

Have fun! [8D]

[devils]

First Hornby is alive and very well it now owns Rivarossi and several other European manufacturers.
Like a couple of the guys said, do you prefer a certain part of the UK? If there are certain trains you like let us know what they are and we can suggest which region to go for and compatible stock, if you want to just run whatever you like then go ahead it's your railway! Basically you have Southern, Western, North Western, Eastern & Scottish regions. You'll see some of the same units but carrying different liveries for passenger while the main freight companies, EWS & Freightliner are seen over most of the country
Bachmann UK, Hornby and Heljan UK are the big 3 stock manufacturers so look these up on google. Avoid the old Lima boxed models, they are overpriced by collectors and they are now part of Hornby and being re-released from this year with new mechanisims that should be much better.
www.hattons.co.uk is a big mail order store in Liverpool and will ship worldwide, email them for details. Their website is also very comprehensive.

For the present day 2006
1: commuter passenger operations
Everything from the High Speed Train with twin power cars to the ubiqutous class 158 diesel multiple unit, DMU.

2: industrial shunting
Mostly done by Class 08 shunter belonging to EWS, Freightliner or a private hire firm for a factory complex. Hornby and Bachmann both make good models of the 08, Hornbys is newer and a little more but has opening doors and slightly finer detail.

3: run-through distance passenger
HST again or mostly 'Virgin Trains' Voyager units, avoid the Dapol Pendolino it wobbles like mad and you'll need to put in overhead wires.

4: local freight operations
You'll need a Bachmann class 66 in EWS or freightliner colours as they are everywhere, also consider the class 57 ( a re-engined class 47! ) or a class 60( Hornby one). Container, stone & oil trains can be seen anywhere, coal is mostly in the North East and West.

Google Image search - 'Class 158', 'Class 150', 'Class 66', 'Class 60', HST
http://www.railpictures.net/
http://www.railfaneurope.net/
have some uk stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anybody notice... nothing about "Wales and West"... or even Wales as a whole?

[devils]

Wales & West comes under Western Region! Southern man myself as I work in a signalbox in sunny Salisbury.

[Anonymous]

Didn't the Mid Wales Line come unde London Midland?

Glad to know there's another real railwayman here!

[devils]

I forget they do overlap a bit, I always think of the Western in the Valleys but Mid & North Wales did have a slightly better deal with the Midland! We have to put up with the Western line into Salisbury fortunately they used the old second trackbed for access to the quarry at Quidhampton.
David how can you not like a 37? They are a bit drafty but sound fantastic and they pull the flask trains as trains are fairly light to pull, 66's are more useful elsewhere and the 67's are too heavy for those routes!
Don't forget there are still a lot of signalboxes using the traditional levers on quieter lines.
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/Johntilly/
British signalling info, Pictures & railway information by John Tilly HMRI Inspector.

Railway map of most of Britain they keep adding more
http://www.geowiki.co.uk/New_Adlestrop_Railway_Atlas.pdf

[Anonymous]

Didn't say that I don't like the 37s... in fact I quite like the sound... what you might call "distinctive".

I strated working with the Crompton Class 33s which all sounded the same until they were about to give up. The 73s on diesel were pretty unique as well.

On a cold night I'd rather ride a 66 than any of the old locos.

If you're on this forum what do you model? Do you admit your interest at work???
(My lot know I'm mad anyway so I do).

[folkestonekeith]

If you're interested seeing whats up on this side of the pond have a look at www.rmweb.co.uk - there are some guys from the US particpating in the forums so you won't feel alone......Enjoy!!

[xdford]

Edit: I'm also quite aware that the railroads in the UK are lefthand running. My main model railroad is set in Eastern Ontario, we run them the Queen's way there too.

Cheers!
~METRO

Hi there, I am interested in where and how far Left Hand Running occurs in Canada. I started a thread to assist my club with regards to signals etc but did not know despite being there 30 years ago that LH running occurred! Any information would be great!

Thanks


Trevor (website www.xdford.digitalzones.com FYI)

[METRO]

xford, if one thinks of the American rail system as a whole continent (as it is vastly becoming now that the lines between the United States, Mexico and Canada have largely dissappeared regarding freight rail,) the decision to run left or right handed is very much left up to the railways themselves. Chicago North Western, Santa Fe and many other railroads that were very very much United States operations had left hand running sections. It's now largely a regional decision, here in Milwaukee, and also back home in Toronto, left hand rail is the rule not the exception. Sadly that's about as far as my knowledge extends. My main model railroad is set in a freelanced Canadian metropolis on the eastern end of Lake Ontario, and is left-handed in their railroading.

Interestingly in certain parts of Canada, automobiles were driven on the left up until the 1920s. Although this was never the custom in Ontario or Quebec as they were influenced first by the French then by the British empires.

As for everyone's input on the British railroading: I've not seen any of the Bachman OO scale around here, and stateside Bachman (including their spectrum line) has a reputation of rather spotty quality control so how well does their OO scale equipment fair compaired with say Hornby?

Birmingham would actually be quite a bit easier to model for me as I've a few friends from that area who could help me out with details and such. Us folks from the relm tend to stick together here in the USA, watching football (go****nal against Barcelona!,) enjoying a good gin & tonic and things of that nature that Americans seem to look at us crosswise for haha.

I've been doing my photo reseach on the European Railserver, their photo archives are some of the most complete that I've come across. The class 60 are quite nice looking locomotives, and since their so common (and easy to come by here at hobby shops) I think that would make a good through freight locomotive. Too bad the class 08s are becoming rare, I've heard some good things about them. As for the HST, I've always liked them, I think they look great in GNER colors, but they don't look too bad in Virgin either.

The HST is actually what got me thinking about this layout, I was thinking of having one on my main layout as a lent test trainset (North Americans are quite fond of borrowing european high-speed trains, running them and then returning them without orders for more once the pricetag for the line upgrades needed to make them run at speed come in.)

EWS seems to be the dominant freight carrier in the UK now from what I've seen, so from what I'm thinking that sounds like a good line to go with. The only other roadname avalible here I've seen is Load Haul and I know practically nothing about them.

Does Network Rail have any class 60?

Cheers Mates!
~METRO

[BR60103]

Metro: I put a reply in the other thread for you.
British model railways tend to be different from American ones. They have less space, so a home layout is often quite short. Often there will be a small yard or station and a hidden yard. The typical display layout will be a station with some countryside and a large yard at the back with trains in it.

[devils]

I've got a 00 bitish layout in a 8x12 shed, a 16x3 HOm Swiss layout under construction for shows and am part of a group of friends who put a portable G scale layout on display. I model British OO, N and 009 , Swiss HOm, US in On30 HO and a bit of N! Like a bit of everything.
Yes my colleagues know I model trains and I've even built two training simulators for Network Rail used for Signalling assessment with every bit of lineside kit we can think of, they have to squeeze a lot in to a small space so can't be run as a layout and have working track circuits and signals.

METRO, only EWS has class 60's although some are still in mainline or loadhaul pre privatisation colours. Network rail owns some two unit MPV's, Class 31's, 73's for infrastructure work and a HST in yellow as a high speed track measurement train.

[Anonymous]

Putting it politely that yellow HST looks like it's had an accident with a bowl of custard[xx(]

[xdford]

Thanks Metro,

Yes I was aware that certain Provinces as well as US states also drove on the left of the road up to about 1922 as you suggest.

Actually I don't like the running qualities of the Spectrum engines I have but the Bachmann UK based locos are really quite good. I have quite a few engines from an estate of a friend which may be of interest to you. I feel that they are a much better product than the American engines

I am virtually rebuilding 2 exhibition layouts using his layout design which was effectively three areas which would have made interesting layouts on their own. Reg's layout had survived two moves but did not take well to its final move out of its room when he passed away. I am keeping some stock for it but do not need all of it by a long shot. I was handling sales for Reg's wife but have not had much time to muck around on Ebay and not impressed with the prices that seemed to be fetching for similar items.

ANyway I must get back to work, feel free to contact offline at [e-mail] if you like...

Regards from Down Under

Trevor

[BR60103]

Metro:
Bachman seems to have 2 seoarate supply lines. The UK models go directly to the UK and our dealers have to get them from there. The US models come into the US and are sent on from there.
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/ is one British forum -- a bit different in character from this one.