Railfanning, Was I in the wrong?

[Tom Curtin]

I should like to point out that in the telling the story that began this thread, the writer does not claim to have been detained or even asked for an ID, simply asked a lot of questions, with the interrogator busily writing down a lot of information. The interrogator is described as some kind of security guard, who, in the writer's words "called for backup" in the middle of this process. We don't know if any backup ever came, the writer doesn't mention this (In fact, we do not know for certain that backup was really called --- only that it appeared to the writer that he "called for backup").

I can't help thinking as I read it over multiple times that this was a guy who gets his job satisfaction by throwing his [perceived] authority around and generating intimidation. Just my opinion.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by zgardner18

Okay maybe you missed my point bro, that's the problem with forums sometimes, or its just you,

What I was trying to say was just what you reiterated. Do you not think that we should be good citizens when it comes to taking pictures of trains. Are we not examples for the rest to follow? If I was a *** to that Security Guard on that platform then what would he have done to the next guy? I can't see why you would thank that this is funny, I believe that what we are conversing on is an important topic and needs to be addressed. That is why my topic is a question not a smart remark. I would think before you write.

I don't think the situation of security guards throwing their weight around just because they have a little authority and like to intimidate people - and make no mistake, in many cases that's exactly the situation - is funny at all.

I do think before I write, and I think the assertion that we are "...ambassadors for this hobby" is a liitle unrealistic, to be nice about it. That's what I though was funny.

No offense intended - just clarifying.

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

QUOTE: Originally posted by nbrodar

I go through Rail Security training every year. And while I appriate that people like railfanning, keep these things in mind:

First, railway stations ARE private property, just like the right of way.

No... Not just like the right of way...

Its illegal to walk on the right of way because its trespassing.

Its not illegal to go onto a platform unless its posted you must have a ticket - and even then you can purchase one.

Platforms are public areas like parking lots, businesses, etc., RoW's are not.

any area owned by a company is private property , no matter how much access the public normally has to that area . you can be asked to leave any store , parking lot , railroad station , if an employee of the company feels you are causing a problem or shouldn't be there for any reason . you can be arrested for trespassing if you don't leave when asked . of course you can protest later to management , even sue if you think it's appropriate

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

I would not assume that all parking lots and businesses are public property as suggested in an earlier post. That assumption can lead to a bit of trouble.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

any area owned by a company is private property , no matter how much access the public normally has to that area . you can be asked to leave any store , parking lot , railroad station , if an employee of the company feels you are causing a problem or shouldn't be there for any reason . you can be arrested for trespassing if you don't leave when asked . of course you can protest later to management , even sue if you think it's appropriate

I NEVER said anything about them being public property...

I said public AREAS. The term AMTRAK uses. Its privately owned, but the public is ALLOWED to be there... I know its subject to the control owner.. But simply going there does not constitute trespassing which was the point i was trying to make.
I can set foot on a public area (business or platform) and it won't automatically be trespassing. If I set foot on a RoW or any place noted in Amtrak's letter or a business where its posted or is private it is automatically trespassing.

Also, perhaps you both missed by post at 11:47 on April 18th in this thread where I said:

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Telesha

If somebody in authority takes it upon themselves to bug you, politely enlighten them, and if they ask you to leave, leave. File a letter to the RR asking if this was their policy (and as in 99% of the cases its not) print their response and carry it with you.

If they tell you to leave, leave. Go somewhere else, or come back another day.

[outdoorsfellar]

I'd say he had his panties tied in a knot & hadn't read his pre- citizenship handbook very well.

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

I would not assume that all parking lots and businesses are public property as suggested in an earlier post. That assumption can lead to a bit of trouble.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

any area owned by a company is private property , no matter how much access the public normally has to that area . you can be asked to leave any store , parking lot , railroad station , if an employee of the company feels you are causing a problem or shouldn't be there for any reason . you can be arrested for trespassing if you don't leave when asked . of course you can protest later to management , even sue if you think it's appropriate

I NEVER said anything about them being public property...

I said public AREAS. The term AMTRAK uses. Its privately owned, but the public is ALLOWED to be there... I know its subject to the control owner.. But simply going there does not constitute trespassing which was the point i was trying to make.
I can set foot on a public area (business or platform) and it won't automatically be trespassing. If I set foot on a RoW or any place noted in Amtrak's letter or a business where its posted or is private it is automatically trespassing.

Also, perhaps you both missed by post at 11:47 on April 18th in this thread where I said:

QUOTE: Originally posted by David Telesha

If somebody in authority takes it upon themselves to bug you, politely enlighten them, and if they ask you to leave, leave. File a letter to the RR asking if this was their policy (and as in 99% of the cases its not) print their response and carry it with you.

If they tell you to leave, leave. Go somewhere else, or come back another day.

sorry David , i guess i wasn't clear in my intention . i wasn't disagreeing with you , i was attempting to give further information on the point that a "public area" is still private property and we are allowed there for whatever purpose the owner intends and if one of their employees thinks there is reason for us to be removed from that place , then they have that right .

as far as i'm concerned unless there's a sign saying it's private property , or if there's a fence dividing it off from the public area , then i'm allowed to go there , and also take pictures

last time i checked neither stalin , hitler or mao held elected office in my country or yours , and there are no laws against taking a picture of anything you want

[Anonymous]

As a comparison, I would offer the railroad park located in Rochelle, Illinois. This little park is located just to the east of the double diamonds where the U. P. and B. N. S. F. double track mainlines cross. I don't know who the official owner of the park is, but the set up was designed especially for train watching and offers a parking lot, a protected pavilion and a scanner-like device to listen to the train traffic. It is fenced so that access to the R O W is prohibited, but it even has a snack bar so that a dedicated or casual railfan can satisfy his/her hunger or thirst without missing any action. I don't think that I've ever stopped there without taking either pictures or video and have almost always seen other people doing the same. Quite a contrast, wouldn't you say?

[eeyore9900]

QUOTE: Originally posted by stumperr1939

As a comparison, I would offer the railroad park located in Rochelle, Illinois. This little park is located just to the east of the double diamonds where the U. P. and B. N. S. F. double track mainlines cross. I don't know who the official owner of the park is, but the set up was designed especially for train watching and offers a parking lot, a protected pavilion and a scanner-like device to listen to the train traffic. It is fenced so that access to the R O W is prohibited, but it even has a snack bar so that a dedicated or casual railfan can satisfy his/her hunger or thirst without missing any action. I don't think that I've ever stopped there without taking either pictures or video and have almost always seen other people doing the same. Quite a contrast, wouldn't you say?

We need more of these! ^

QUOTE: Often the officer is apologetic about the order. Usually we'll chat for a minute or two, and the officer will explain why he told me to stop, or where that authority comes form, or both.

An attitude like this could smooth ruffled feathers in any instance IMO, whether it be with railfanning, or even a traffic stop with police-sometimes I feel all law enforcement/security should take a serious look at this kind of attitude-I've dealt with no explanations "because I said so!" situations (non railfanning) & all it does is make the "offender" that much more stand-offish or belligerent if you will. A pleasant explanation of why you're stopping & checking him out would make a world of difference!

[Anonymous]

Sounds like the PIGS have gone Paranoied.

[davekelly]

I don't think we should go labeling all police/security people something negative based on the actions of a few. Would we appreciate it if some railfan/model railroaders did trespass and become beligerent with a copy and because of that the word goes out throughout the law enforcement/security community that "railfans and model railroaders are a bunch of disrespectful, beligerent, tresspassers?"

Before we decide to "take the offense" next time we see a police/security guy because of what a somewhat less than professional officer did to someone else, we should decide if it would be fair for him/her to diss us because of a bad encounter he/she had with a bad apple a little while before.

Before someone flames me for saying that ask yourself - does two wrongs make a right?

[grayfox1119]

As you can see, each time a major "hostile event" takes place anywhere, the authorities can take things to the extreme. After 9/11, the local authorities that cruise around the local reservoirs that are in our town but belong to the city of Worcester, Ma, got overly protective, in fact, *** right foolish. We have some dirt roads that are closed off to cars around one particular beautiful reservoir because teenagers were making messes every year. But, we like to take walks in the Fall on these roads. Well, these "reservoir police" were trying to stop people, ( Hey I'm retired, and my wife an I certainly don't look like terrorists) from just walking. I told them that this is "our" town that their reservoir was located on, I will *** well walk on the roads in my retired years if I *** well please. We later took the matter up with our town Selectmen who were equally pissed, and told the city police to "lighten up".
It only shows that it is not only the RR's that get nasty at times, it is over zealous officials who have a lack of common sense.

[davekelly]

What does a terrorist look like?

Just my opinion, but things often seem like they lack "common sense." Yes, there were some massively over zealous authorities after the 9/11 thing, but didn't the entire nation, in a way go overboard? Security guys/law enforcement folks had many "over zealous" types at that time. A reading of the newspapers then would show that. But aren't they just a reflection of the population as a whole? Didn't the general public react the same way in thinking that every plane was going to be a terrorist attack? Why else would passenger numbers be down so much? As the public we can exercise our "lack of common sense" by not flying and no one will criticize that. Would you want to be the security guy that decided not to check someone because "they didn't look like a terrorist" and then find out they hijacked a plane? Tim McVeigh did not fit the terrorist stereotype.

On the other hand, one must ask, if the security guys had been a little more zeolous, would those terrorists succeeded in taking over the planes that September?

Yes, I agree that the resorvoir cops were most likely unprofessional. But what were the instructions they got from the selectmen who were "pissed?" Were they told "make sure no one tampers with the water or else" and acted "pissed" when the public that elects them showed their disapproval? Were the beat cops threatened within an inch of their lives to be on the lookout for "everyone"? Would an increase in police salaries allow for the hiring of better people?

Is it common sense when folks will criticize the child protective folks for not removing a child that later dies, and in the same week be criticized for investigating too hard?

I don't think there is an easy answer.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grayfox1119

As you can see, each time a major "hostile event" takes place anywhere, the authorities can take things to the extreme. After 9/11, the local authorities that cruise around the local reservoirs that are in our town but belong to the city of Worcester, Ma, got overly protective, in fact, *** right foolish. We have some dirt roads that are closed off to cars around one particular beautiful reservoir because teenagers were making messes every year. But, we like to take walks in the Fall on these roads. Well, these "reservoir police" were trying to stop people, ( Hey I'm retired, and my wife an I certainly don't look like terrorists) from just walking. I told them that this is "our" town that their reservoir was located on, I will *** [/red]well walk on the roads in my retired years if I [red]*** well please. We later took the matter up with our town Selectmen who were equally pissed, and told the city police to "lighten up".
It only shows that it is not only the RR's that get nasty at times, it is over zealous officials who have a lack of common sense.

Yep! that approach should do it! [:)]
Don't think I've seen so many *** in one post here before...
What are the old folks of today coming to?

Would I be right in thinking that anything more than one teenager is a threatening group that should be maced by the police?

Otherwise... isn't the discussion (excluding the porcine comment) remarkably civilised?

Have a nice day [8D][8D][8D][8D]

[Anonymous]

i'm glad i'm not a railfan. with my mouth i'd be hit over the head with a stick, beaten up, and sent to gitmo.

[DALCruiser]

Security issues are a BIG thing in the post 9/11 times. I was challenged in my own home when the Calif. "Governator" was making a public appearence in the street in front of my house. There was some road repair work being done with some State funds and he wanted to get some TV publicity about it. I was up stairs taking some pictures of the activity, when one of his "Suits" with a big badge and GUN called my out of my house. He told my NO pictures from UP STAIRS. I guess they were spooked about a possible sniper exposure. No prior announcement was made about his appearence, so I was supprised when I heard his voice over the speakers they had set-up and just grabbed my camera. I thought they might actually break into my house if I hadn't hurried down with my camera and met them outside.

After words, they told me I could take all the pictures I wanted, at GROUND LEVEL. Actually I got close up pictures and a hand shake from Arnold for my trouble.

Mass transportation locations have the Homeland Security people very sensitive about possible terrorist activities, so I would be serious about special instructions being posted or challenges from security personnel guarding these places. You don't who has a gun and authorization to shoot on sight!

Dave

[mikebonellisr]

Sadly it's a sign of the times.Nobody on the job wants to be the one who is told "You should have seen it comming".I Have a retirement job that deals with large numbers of people that we have to control thier movements and access to certain areas.and many people feel "entitled" and want to know why they cant do certain things or go where they want or that posted signs CAN'T be ment for them.We operate on the idea that ...If it can happen,It will happen then they either suffer,sue and we have to clean up the mess
I guess that we all have to put ourselfs in the other guys shoes..I'm sure it's a pain to have to hassle people all day long

[Anonymous]

It's not unheard of over here, but it's interesting to see who the people are doing the questioning. In all the cases I've read about it's been a private security guard rather than a real police officer, which would suggest to me that some of these people have seriously over-active imaginations or just don't like railfans. I've yet to hear of someone in the UK being grabbed by genuine police around a rail line unless they're doing something daft and endangering themselves or others. Consider this; the individuals responsible for the 7/7 London bombings took no photographs and showed no interest in trains. They made a single "dummy run" passing as normal passengers before their cowardly attack - we know this as CCTV spotted them. There was nothing unusual in their behaviour right up until the point when they triggered the bombs. No amount of hassling people for showing an interest in trains would have stopped them.

The reservoir thing is equally interesting. I live fairly near a major reservoir complex which I've used as a testing ground for photography on numerous occasions (there are some beautiful landscapes up there and it's not too far to drive, so it's ideal for trying out techniques). Not once have I seen increased security. There's usually someone from the water authority around keeping an eye on the system but I've never been stopped or questioned, and I've not heard of it happening to anyone else. If I saw anything suspicious I'd report it, but people walking or taking photos don't come under that heading!

[Anonymous]

It is the normal reaction to security today. If you are told to leave, you should comply and stop taking pictures.

As a railfan, we do not consider ourselves a problem, but security people do not know us or our intentions and they have rules that they must enforce. Many places today in the large cities are enforcing the rules, but there are many areas that are still open.

Just be careful and comply. You can still have a good day and enjoy trains!

[Anonymous]

You were right you were not in the wrong have done the same thing 1,000's of times myself.

[grayfox1119]

Matt, you are right On buddy. Anyone who is trained at all in terrorist activities, knows the PROFILE of every single action going all the way back to Beirut. A white, anglo-saxon, grayed haired couple, in the mid 60's, walking down a dirt road, in the town they have lived in all their lives ( and parked on this same street years earlier in their teens ) is certainly not high up on the "suspected profile list of terrorist ".
And as Matt has pointed out, the terrorist are never seen checking out their hit areas, they already know all they need to know.
We lose, they win, if we are not allowed to live our lives in a free country. And, for that matter, the more eyes we have everywhere, the more likely we will prevent future hits.....

Remember the profile of every single foreign terrorist since the Beirut bombing!!!

[Walter Clot]

I used to have to pass a Celanese Chemical Plant 4 or 5 times a year. I kept wishing I had a picture until I remembered to bring a camera with me. I took some pix from the road. I later went down and checked into the first building and asked if I could take some closer and told them about rr modeling. They agreed that I could take some from a certain distance. This was back in 1973.
While in Moscow, I wanted a picture of the U.S. Embassy. The interpreter told me that it might cause problems if we were too close. I finally took a picture of a friend with the Embassy in the background (3 blocks away). This was years before 9/11.
In light of 9/11 it seems wise to ask permission.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rick bonfiglio

i'm glad i'm not a railfan. with my mouth i'd be hit over the head with a stick, beaten up, and sent to gitmo.

Can I join? I am the same way. I hate cops. And there is a reason why. Right after 9/11. They have become way too power hungry. That little gay badge tend to go to their little minds. Allan.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

What does a terrorist look like?.

The American Railfan[(-D].
Allan.

[wjstix]

I think the point that often gets overlooked is that the actual terrorist events - bombings for example - are only part of the terrorist's intended outcome. The other (and perhaps from the terrorist's point of view, the most important ) is creating a climate of fear and panic and a destruction of the everyday life of everyone. This goes back at least to the late fifties bombing of Paris street cafes by Algerian terrorists. Those terrorists only had to set off a couple of bombs, and within a few days virtually no one would sit at an outdoor cafe or even go out at night. It didn't take to long for France to give in to the terrorists wishes.

The point, as best I can see, is that a certain level of security and awareness is fine, but going to far is a greater problem than what is really presented by the terrorist threat.

Yes, if someone is trying to take a gun or hunting knife on to an airplane, they should be stopped. But should someone on a public road outside of the edge of the airport be stopped from taking pictures of airliners as they take off and land?? It's gotten to the point where the public viewing platform in Duluth MN harbor prohibits people from taking pictures of the ore boats when they're docked - you can only take pics from the viewing area when there is nothing there to photograph. [%-)] I'm not aware of any plans (at least not since WW2) for anyone to attack ore boats or freshwater harbors.