Test ran my first locomotive - kind of a bummer.

[KKEIFE]

I have spent the last two years preparing a train room, building the benchwork, developing a track plan, laying the roadbed and finally completing the track work and wiring on the outer mainline loop on my 7.5' x 11' HO scale layout last night.

I turned on the Digitrax Zephyr and put my first bought loco (P2K GP7) on it and ran it in analog mode. Things seemsed fine when I heard the whine of the engine but when I turn the throttle knob up the loco ran like it was in slow motion. I had the knob tuned up to full power and the engine slowly moved around about 35 feet of track. It seemed to pick up a liitle speed after a while but even my wife thought it was too slow.

I bright boyed the top and inner parts of the rail and it did not help. I have an outer loop that is about 35-40 feet of track that has 7 sets of 22 AWG feeder wires coming off a 14 AWG bus. I bought the loco off E-Bay. It is brand new (the seller had sold a lot of model RR stuff and had almost a 100% postiive feedback rating). I don't expect the speed to improve when I install the decoder tonight (at least thats what the Digitrax manual says).

Now it's been probably 40 some years since I was at the controls of a model RR and that was a Lionel O guage train. Are these HO engines really suppose to crawl along pretty slowly. If not, does anyone have any ideas on what I should try to do to increase the speed.

[Anonymous]

It has been my experience that the loco will speed up when it has a decoder in it. The locos without decoders are not only noisy but slow. And, as I am sure someone will mention (true or not), running a DC loco on DCC has the added advantage of possibly ruining the loco.

I say, put a decoder in it, reset the decoder CV8=8 and then try your speed tests again.

Cheers

[simon1966]

Loco's run considerably slower on the 00 adress on a Zephyr equipped layout when compared to the same locomotive on a pure DC system. You will get much better performance when you convert the loco to DCC.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KKEIFE

I have spent the last two years preparing a train room, building the benchwork, developing a track plan, laying the roadbed and finally completing the track work and wiring on the outer mainline loop on my 7.5' x 11' HO scale layout last night.

I turned on the Digitrax Zephyr and put my first bought loco (P2K GP7) on it and ran it in analog mode. Things seemsed fine when I heard the whine of the engine but when I turn the throttle knob up the loco ran like it was in slow motion. I had the knob tuned up to full power and the engine slowly moved around about 35 feet of track. It seemed to pick up a liitle speed after a while but even my wife thought it was too slow.

I bright boyed the top and inner parts of the rail and it did not help. I have an outer loop that is about 35-40 feet of track that has 7 sets of 22 AWG feeder wires coming off a 14 AWG bus. I bought the loco off E-Bay. It is brand new (the seller had sold a lot of model RR stuff and had almost a 100% postiive feedback rating). I don't expect the speed to improve when I install the decoder tonight (at least thats what the Digitrax manual says).

Now it's been probably 40 some years since I was at the controls of a model RR and that was a Lionel O guage train. Are these HO engines really suppose to crawl along pretty slowly. If not, does anyone have any ideas on what I should try to do to increase the speed.

It's a common observation that running a DC train on 00 on the DCC system tends to result in slow speeds. But, you can also be a little more analytical about it and see just how slow.

The truth is it could also be partly perception. If I compare my 30-years-ago origins in the hobby (A Tyco box set), 'real' speeds would seem slow by comparison:

If I recall correctly, for HO 1ft/minute = 1 scale MPH. So 60FPM = 60 MPH, or 1 foot/second. 30 FPM - 30 MPH or 1 foot/2seconds. That's gives you a ballpark to mark off a few feet of track, and 'time' the loco and see if you're at reasonable speeds.

Actually, I did recall correctly, here's the link with handy conversion chart: http://www.gatewaynmra.org/designops.htm

It can seem slow... I have a 120ft. mainline, which at 60 scale MPH takes the train two full minutes to run. At 30 MPH, four minutes. Consider that, at 5 Scale MPH - a typical switching speed, it takes a loco 12 seconds to go one foot of distance!

[Fergmiester]

Not to worry, 00 effects different non DCC locos differently. some run at half speed at full throttle, some dead slow and some just sit dead and smoke (only happened once to me and the jury is out as to whether it was a DCC problem).

Hope this puts your mind at ease.

Fergie

[Don Gibson]

FIRST you have to separate the engine from the decoder to find out if it's electrical, or mechanical.

I SUSPECT you need to read the Digitrax Manual. I could be wrong. WHO installed the DCC decoder?

BUT since you encountered problems in th "ANALOG" MODE (whatever that is?). - I'd start there - sans board*.

Whoever sold it to you should be of some help (They got your money). If not, you have two choices: Fix it yourself, or get Professional help.

*as opposed to 'Analog mode'.

[MisterBeasley]

When I get a new non-decoder-equipped locomotive, I try it briefly on DC as Engine Zero just to make sure it runs. It crawls and buzzes. Then I install the decoder and it runs great. So, you're just a decoder away. Have fun.

[rrinker]

Completely normal, none of my P2K's ran very well on Address 00 either. Different motors respond differently. Pick up a DH163L0 decoder, it's a 5 second install (really!), and you'll see what DCC can really do.

--Randy

[dinwitty]

DCC is technically AC on the tracks, perhaps a higher frequency than AC, it carries the power as well as using the AC (digital signals) as information to the decoder.
You can really have only ONE non DCC loco on the tracks but the motor is getting ALL the current as if it was running on DC all the time.
But the motor doesnt run because the it gets the same current in opposite directions all the time so the motor cannot move. The DCC will shift the voltages so the motor will run.

a non-spinning motor wont fan air around so its going to get hotter than usual.
Various motors may be able to tolerate this but not always.
I would get yourself a standard DC throttle if your just testing things around.

too slow?

I regear my Rivvarrosi 2-8-8-2's because they run too fast and the N&W never really ran them high speed anyways. They had to shove long coal trains over mountains and and they used pusher operations. no speed here.
I like it when I can get my engines to CRAWLlLLLLLLL..
Good for switching.
My layout will have heavy grades and will be pulling long coal trains.

[KKEIFE]

Randy:

I actually do have that decoder. I was just following the Digitrax instructions by test running it in DC (00) mode first.

I am going to give it a try this evening after installing the decoder.

Thanks to all for the replies. I feel better now.

I'll let you know what happens when the decoder is installed.

Ken

[tomikawaTT]

Since 60mph (full scale) = 88 feet per second, one foot per second in HO is close enough to 60mph to make no difference. It's also a lot slower than real walking speed - 5 minutes from goal line to goal line on an NFL football field. Also, while some prototype situations allow for really high speed running, the kind of curves we use in modeling would be subject to extreme speed restrictions in real life.

Then, too, some prototype locomotives simply aren't capable of high speeds, due to gearing in diesels and electrics and dynamic coupling in steam locos. (A Y6 could drive nearby seismographs crazy at a lot less than 60MPH!)

On the late-steam N&W, the ratio was something like 12 25mph (maybe) coal drags and 2 55-60mph merchandise trains for every 90mph passenger run.

These days, I run at prototype speeds. When I got my first Lionel, I ran it at speeds that wouldn't be described in Mach numbers until a decade later.

[loathar]

WOW! Most folks wi***hey could get a loco to do that!

[KKEIFE]

Thanks everybody for your help.

I installed the decoder and as many of you predicted it did make a big difference. The GEEP runs just fine now. I can now try and take it to the programming track and play some more.

Now I just need to finish laying the rest of the track and install 13 tortoise switch machines. I've never installed switch machines before so I think that is my last hurdle to clear as far as completing something I'm not real confident in.

Again, thanks for the help. You guys on this forum have been great in answering questions I've had in the past and this time was no exception.

Ken

[xdford]

Hi all, Quoting the above "If I recall correctly, for HO 1ft/minute = 1 scale MPH. So 60FPM = 60 MPH, or 1 foot/second. 30 FPM - 30 MPH or 1 foot/2seconds. That's gives you a ballpark to mark off a few feet of track, and 'time' the loco and see if you're at reasonable speeds. "

I use the number of inches in 5 seconds,,, check out one of my web pages on www.xdford.digitalzones.com (can't remember which one) and go to the "On Scale Speed" Page.... hope this helps!

regards

Trevor

[fwright]

An even easier way to esitmate speed is to count # of cars passing a given point in 5 seconds, assuming 6 inch (40 scale ft) cars in HO. Each car length past the point (tree, sign, building, etc) in 5 seconds equals 6 scale miles per hour. 1 car =6 mph, 2 cars=12 mph, 3 cars=18mph....10 cars=60mph. A little practice counting 5 seconds mentally and you will be able to quickly estimate a train's speed fairly accurately and amaze your friends!

Actually, this came out of an MR article in the '60s.

yours in slow trains
Fred W

[jeffers_mz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tomikawaTT
When I got my first Lionel, I ran it at speeds that wouldn't be described in Mach numbers until a decade later.

So, all those 1940-1950 reports of unidentified high performance craft around White Sands and LANL were just you running your trains?

[jfugate]

There's light years of difference between running a non-DCC loco on address 00 and running one with a decoder. Even the fleet decoders have lots of settings you can use to tweak performance of your loco.

And if you get one of the decoders with back EMF or TCS's dithering, then you can really make a loco perform to it's best capability. It doesn't get much better than this! [swg]

[jfugate]

One other thought on the whole thing of going back and forth between DC and DCC.

While you can run a single non-decoder equipped DC loco (or a loco lashup, none with decoders) on most DCC systems, it's more of a stunt than anything real practical. Loco performance is marginal, and the loco makes wierd harmonic sounds as you advance the throttle. With fleet decoders down to $15 each, it doesn't make much sense to use this feature and I never use it any more.

Secondly, with locos that do have decoders, having the analog conversion mode set ON (CV29) in a decoder is known to cause all kinds of erratic decoder behavior, and is something you want to always set OFF in any decoder you install. If you don't do this, you will get locos that suddenly take off at full speed with no reason one moment and then the next you won't be able to get the loco to respond at all.

With analog mode set on, any time you get a short, I've also found the decoders set on will be more likely to see the short and react oddly in some way -- either by getting scrambled or suddenly responding and taking off.

The first thing I do in all my decoders is set analog mode OFF before I do anything else.

[jxtrrx]

Joe,
I'm looking in the wrong places, I guess. Where does one find a decoder for $15?
Thanks!

[simon1966]

The Lenz value line of decoders are $12 in packs of 5 from Litchfieldstation.com

[rrinker]

Based on the Bachmann experience (which are supposedly the same low end Lenz decoders) I'd say the NCE D13SRJ's at the same price are a better deal. I've installed a bunch of those and they all work great.
The LE1000W only has 1 function (the D13's have 4), and the LE1000 does not have silent running or any sort of plug, it's completely hard-wired. The D13SRJ has a 9-pin JST plug so you can swap the decoders or install a dummy plug for DC operation.
Not knocking Lenz, the Gold series are probably the best decoders out there right now, but VERY expensive. The 'value line' sacrifices too many features compared to the competitors.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dinwitty

DCC is technically AC on the tracks, perhaps a higher frequency than AC, it carries the power as well as using the AC (digital signals) as information to the decoder.

I do not believe that this is correct, although it is a common misconception. DCC is a square wave, which is not an Alternating Current (AC) signal "technically". Alternating Current is a sine wave.

The DCC square wave allows both for signalling the decoder and providing the voltage the decoder converts to DC to actually run the motor.

When you operate a DCC system on Address 00, I believe that it causes the system to stretch the length of the square wave to more closely approximate DC voltage. But it is not pure DC, so the motor performs poorly.

QUOTE: You can really have only ONE non DCC loco on the tracks but the motor is getting ALL the current as if it was running on DC all the time.

Actually, you can have multiple DC locos on the DCC track at once being operated on Address 00, just as you can have multiple DC locos on one DC track at once. But they will all speed up or slow down at the same time, just as they would on a DC track without blocks. It doesn't make sense to do this, but it could be done.

DCC is powerful, but a little complex, so we should be careful to be precise about the information we give to newcomers. Some good sources:
http://www.tonystrains.com/tonystips/dccprimer/index.htm
www.wiringfordcc.com
http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/index.html

Based on my experience, it makes a lot of sense to buy an inexpensive traditional power pack to test run DC locos on a separate loop or test track rather than trying to run them on Address 00. This gives you a clear picture of how the motor runs on DC (which is what it will receive from the decoder when it is installed) and allows for some break-in before installing the decoder. I've found that this helps isolate any troubles a lot faster, because you can find marginal motors and other problems before installing decoders without wondering if the bad performance is caused by the Address 00 issues.

Jon

[jondrd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KKEIFE

Thanks everybody for your help.

Now I just need to finish laying the rest of the track and install 13 tortoise switch machines. I've never installed switch machines before so I think that is my last hurdle to clear as far as completing something I'm not real confident in.

Again, thanks for the help. You guys on this forum have been great in answering questions I've had in the past and this time was no exception.

Ken

Ken,
Re installing tortoise switch machines-get yourself a copy of Oct'05 Model Railroader. At pg.88 an article by Bob Adams,"Quick Mounting for Tortoise Switch Motors" may save you some time, backaches and possibly some language usage [censored]. Also a follow up to Adams article in Dec'05 issue, Railway Post Office, pg.26-Tighter Tortoise Holder by Tom Walker of 3M Corp.

Last 4 Tortoises I've got to install will try this approach. Maybe some other forum members have already tried this approach. Think it's worth checking out.

Jon [:D]