"O" Scale - 2 rail / 3 rail

[Bill H.]

Have been considering an "O" scale adventure. I'm confused as to 2 & 3 rail.

Can 3 rail equipment be reasonably modified to run on 2 rails?

What, exactly, does 3 rail compatible rolling stock mean?

I have no interest in 3 rail systems. If I take the plunge, it must be 2 rail.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Maybe the biggest issue is the wheelsets. 3 rail uses all metal wheels and axels, since the running rails are both the same polarity, and the center rail is where the power is. By choosing 2 rail, you miss out on some real advantages, but if you can't live with the extra rail, so be it.

Yes, 3 rail cars can have their trucks and couplers changed so they will work on 2 rail. Weaver and Atlas sell theirs in both versions, so just pick what you want. Engines are the problem. Again Weaver and Atlas sell both, but it is a lot of work to convert the other brands like Lionel, MTH, K-line, and Wiliams.

[Bill H.]

Thanks for the reply.

What "advantages" would I realize with the 3rd rail?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bill H.

Thanks for the reply.

What "advantages" would I realize with the 3rd rail?

Glad you asked. Let's start off with turning radius. It is possible to have a circle of 3 rail O that is smaller than the minimum standard for HO. HO minimum standard is 18" radius, 15" is possible, but not recommended. Lionel traditional O gauge track makes a 31" circle, 027 is even smaller. Typical 2 rail O needs 36" radius or 72" diameter as it's minimum.

In terms of electrical, things are much easier. Reverse loops and wyes are no problem in 3 rail, since the running rails are the same polarity.

One neat trick that comes from that fact is, the track can be used as an on/off switch. By insulating a section of one of the running rails, when the train with it's metal wheels and axels bridges the insulated section, it can activate the device of your choice. Extend that principle to the entire layout, and you have a detection system that can run signaling, or even work with computer control.

Command control is available, and it is getting to the point where all of the top of the line locomotives, both steam and diesel, come with full sound, smoke, directional lighting, and remote couplers front and rear.

I'm not trying to sell you on 3 rail, because it is what I have chosen for myself. I'm just trying to help you make an informed decision. This question actually comes up from time to time. Here is a recent incarnation of one such discussion.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48668

This link is to a current topic where I gave a construction update on my layout. Truth is if I wasn't so heavily invested in 3 rail O, I would probably be in HO. Now I don't have to worry about aging eyes.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=50067

There are a few different manufacturers that make track with blackened center rails, which helps minimize that element of objection.[;)]

[IRONROOSTER]

The chief advantages of 3 rail are simplified wiring and tighter curves. The trade off for this is oversized flanges, an unprototypical 3 rail track, and oversized couplers that are truck mounted as opposed to body mounted - this allows for a very unprototypically wide coupler swing. Note: not all 3 rail equipment will track around minimum cruves of 31" diameter. Some require larger curves. The biggest engines require 72" diameter.

Not all 3 rail equipment is true O scale - the O27 line is smaller (but not equally in all 3 dimensions). Also, some 3 rail is 1/55 and some is 1/64. Because of this, 3 rail O is frequently called O gauge while 2 rail is called O scale. While there is interchangeability of cars by swapping trucks and couplers (note scale cars may require some underbody modification), the same is not true for engines. Generally the effort to convert engines is not worth it.

Some things to be aware of. Not all 3 rail equipment is as detailed as 2 rail. Much of it is, but some is not. Even though 3 rail runs on tight curves, that tends to emphasize the toy train aspect. 3 rail track is greatly oversized. 3 rail curves are measured in diameter and 2 rail in radius, i.e. 72" diameter vs 36" radius.

If you can, visit some train shows that feature both 2 rail and 3 rail layouts. That will give you some idea of the appearance trade offs. There is unfortunately some friction between some 2 rail and 3 rail modelers, but in truth we all make compromises. Only you can decide which works best for you. But it's all fun. I personally model mainly in S scale, but I have a loop of Lionel track on a table under my layout with some O27 trains.

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

Three rail trains are often thought of as toy trains, having been derived from Lionel trains. For the most part two rail O scale is scale model railroading, a more realistic form. Many of the models coming out these days are available in both configurations.

Bob Boudreau

[Eriediamond]

OK, my 2 cents worth here. Glad to hear some positive comments about 3 rail operation. Some old timers hear might remember in the old days even HO scale was useing a 3rd rail, only it was located along side of the track and locos had an unprototypical shoe sticking out of the side for pickup from that third rail. Also, I believe that 3 rail is AC current where two rail is DC. To change direction of the train, the track power had to be broken twice to change direction and 4 times to stop and start in the same direction again. Now, some say 3 rail track is not model railroading but my question is where does the transfer from playing with "electric trains" to playing with a model railroad take place???? Oops, sorry, some change from playing to "operating"a model railroad. Ken

[Anonymous]

Every year or so generally after the Milwaukee show, where one group as one sweet 2rail moduel and another as a huge 3 rail mod. Most times i come away with the 2 rail layout the winner, why? They look the best as far as scale goes. Atlas now makes a comlpete list of two rail track. But I end up with a strong desire to switch to O, what stops me ? I start to do some online pricing of track and equitment. But the main thing that strikes me is I realize the sheer size of this stuff. If you go O scale just take all your HO stuff and double its size. A 22 rad. is now 44in, a #6 switch instead of about a foot, its now close to 22inchs long. Oh, also double the prices! If you are doing 2 rail which most LHS carry little of in stock, most of what you want is going to have to be ordered.
But if you were willing to do a short line or a nice switching layout, scale O would be great. Atlas's SW's look great and run even better then they look. Anyone looking for about 200 HO cars and 50+ engines?

[tsgtbob]

Boy, did this thread just scream "Jump right in Bob!!!"
Anyway.
3 rail is both the classic Loinel/Marx/AMT/KMT/ toy train size. Advantages are electrical simplicity, as well as a LOT of RTR stuff.
2 rail is a builder's/ craftsman''s scale. Yes, Atlas and Weaver make a lot of RTR stuff mostly in the diesel era, but there is also some in steam.
2 rail is BIG. I have a coal train on my layout that, when the SD-35s start to pull, the slack runs out, just like on the prototype. And, yes, you can hear it. I also have flange squeal. switching is like the F/S thing, in that you can damage a car by coupling to it too hard. (I have a rather large collection of Weaver couplers that are witness to my train handling skills)
Some 3 rail can be converted. NorthWest ShortLine makes a kit to convert a 3 rail MTH diesel to 2 rail. MTH and K-Line is the easiest to convert, followed by the 1/4 inch scale Williams (not traditional size stuff) Current production Lionel is a true nightmare to convert as they do not use any kind of standardazation in the design of their equipment.
For O scale on a budget I'll tell you my secret. Find the old Atlas F-9 and the old Atlas cars from the '70s. They still look good, run rather well, and can be had for about $50-$100 (depending on condition)
The old Atlas track will mate with the new, and tho a little on the pricy side, the new track is a excellent product.
Wiring is the same as conventional HO scale.
IMHO, right now the 3 rail market in fragging itself right into extintion! Every one is sueing everyone else, and I will be surprised if the Big 2 (lionel and MTH) dont wind up under a big corperate umbrella (like Horizion Hobby) when it's all said and done.
Check out some of the magizines in the O segment such as O scale trains 48/inch Railroading and to a lesser extent O Gauge Trains.

Actually Bill, if you have anymore questions, feel free to PM me.

[JamesPH1966]

One other "minor" problem with O - PRICE. I've been in 3 rail O since forever and I must say the the pricing, as compared to comperable products in HO or Large (G or whatever) Scale is a bit outrageous. I realize that modern 3 rail has to have extra electronics to operate (due to using AC power to operate what at this point are DC motors via a rectifier and electronic reverse units) but I still feel the prices reflect a "collectors" market as opposed to an operators or modelers market (and just how "collectable" is something made 6 months ago in China anyway???). I've even seen where the price of real collectable toy trains is suffering compaired to shiney/new product (have you seen the prices of old American Flyer S or smaller Standard Gauge recently? How about 70's Lionel/Fundimentions? Or Marx tinplate? At least I can afford the stuff now!). There is no way I will ever be convinced that a minature wonder like a Broadway K-4 (loaded with DCC and sound) is priced about 1/3 of the cost of the same item in O! Not to mention Shays or articulateds - ouch!

Okay, sorry about the rant. If you have lots of $$$$ you can find some really nice stuff in O - if anything there is more O product out now than there ever was in the "classic" era (post WW2). Otherwise - and this is speaking as a "life-long" tinplater - I would, if I was just entering the hobby, go with HO. Better value, better variety and more flexability.

[JamesPH1966]

One other "minor" problem with O - PRICE. I've been in 3 rail O since forever and I must say the the pricing, as compared to comperable products in HO or Large (G or whatever) Scale is a bit outrageous. I realize that modern 3 rail has to have extra electronics to operate (due to using AC power to operate what at this point are DC motors via a rectifier and electronic reverse units) but I still feel the prices reflect a "collectors" market as opposed to an operators or modelers market (and just how "collectable" is something made 6 months ago in China anyway???). I've even seen where the price of real collectable toy trains is suffering compaired to shiney/new product (have you seen the prices of old American Flyer S or smaller Standard Gauge recently? How about 70's Lionel/Fundimentions? Or Marx tinplate? At least I can afford the stuff now!). There is no way I will ever be convinced that a minature wonder like a Broadway K-4 (loaded with DCC and sound) is priced about 1/3 of the cost of the same item in O! Not to mention Shays or articulateds - ouch!

Okay, sorry about the rant. If you have lots of $$$$ you can find some really nice stuff in O - if anything there is more O product out now than there ever was in the "classic" era (post WW2). Otherwise - and this is speaking as a "life-long" tinplater - I would, if I was just entering the hobby, go with HO. Better value, better variety and more flexability.

[tsgtbob]

Price is not that bad. I am getting new Weaver cars for $25-$30 dollar range, locomotives in the same range as good quality HO.
Yes, O scale is a little more pricey, however, compare that to the prices that HO is bringing these days.
I left HO for the challenge of O scale, as there is not as many "shake the box/RTR" items available.
As for the O scale / O gauge debate, I had a feeling that the "hirail" folks would invade when I saw this thread.
With the bickering in the 3 rail world, I avoid that crap like the plague!
IMHO, the last man standing will be Weaver, and O scale will be as dead as TT.

[Anonymous]

I can't see O going the way of TT any time soon - New suppliers are springing up all the time over here. You can buy RTR locos and cars in unpainted brass from Bachmann, RTR freight and passenger stock from Skytrex, a selection of very nicely moulded plastic freight kits from Parkside Dundas, Slaters, and Coopercraft to say nothing of the large quantities of smaller suppliers.

[Anonymous]

Atlas is coming out with all their old 70's cars in the Trainman line saw them in Milwaukee at the Atlas booth, and are they nice. Metal wheels real 3d ladders a very nice 2rail RSD4&5 for i think $200.00 (not bad) cars where $25.00-$35.00.
Also Atlas is bringing out the old PH F7's And 9's really nice . tsgtbob you're right i see the older Atlas 2rail on eBay all the time, and you can get some good deals on this stuff.
Darn now i'm getting that bug again. WHO THE HECK Started this thread?

[tsgtbob]

"Darn now i'm getting that bug again. WHO THE HECK Started this thread?"
Hehehehe! O scale Gremlins!!!
Even the best of us fall.
Matt, I wi***hat there was as much 2 rail here in the States as it seems that younz in the UK have available!
Yes, Atlas is bringing out the trainman line, but I model in the 70s to 80s time period, so much of it's useless to me (except the gons).
Now, the GP-15-T thats another story....
The F-3-7-9 line that Atlas is planing is a little on the $alty $ide, as well as being too late. B&O/WM phased out the Fs in the late 70s, and I don't need many more of 'em!