DCC / DC---- an opinion

[Eriediamond]

Folks, like the subject head states, this just an opinion and nothing else. First off, I must offer an appology to you folks that are DCC operators. I've been on this forum for about two years now and have stated in the past that I would never go the DCC route and in my posts I've tried to be careful not to sway anyone into not converting to or starting with DCC. I want to state here that at present I have no home layout, it is in the planning stages at this time, but I belong to a club that is modeling in all scales, but mainly HO. Our original layout was analog DC but we are now building a new and larger HO layout with a double track main line. One will be DCC and the other DC. Reason being is that we encourage visitors to bring their trains and operate with us. I have in my roster of locos, several that are DCC "ready" and some not DCC "ready" and plan out installing decoders in the ones that are for operations at the club. I had plans for building an HO layout here at home, going the analog DC route, but like many have stated here, the simplicity of wiring and the cheaper cost of DCC vs all the wiring and switches need for DC operations has chnaged my mind about DCC in a positive way. Now, haveing said all this, a change has been made in the plans for my home layout. Due to the limited space I have (mobil home), I've decided to to go the N scale route here and as much as I am impressed with DCC, I'm going the DC switch flipping route on it. Why? Several reasons. Even though I belong to a club, I'm still basicly a "lone wolf" modeler so I'll be the only one play'in with it. My age also enters into the picture here. I'm at the age where one realizes one has a limited number of years left and combined with that and dollar funds available, the layout will not be built over night. Also my fingers and rest of body aren't as nimble as they used to be and installing decoders in N scale locos is not a challenge I want to undertake. My type of modeling also enters into the picture here also. I want my trains and layout to look real and all that, but I'm not a stickler for proto-type operations. In other words the freight and passengers will get there when they get there and my trains only need an engineer. Oh, and lets not forget that a train ain't a train without a steam engine on the head end and a caboose at the tail end. I guess that what I"m trying to impress here, is that one should take a lot of things int consideration when deciding how to build their railroad. I would imagine there will be a lot of new people starting in the hobby in a couple of months, It's getting that time of year again. Thanks for the time, Ken

[grayfox1119]

Good morning Ken, thank you for sharing your thoughts and comments. As you pointed out, there are MANY factors that people must consider when planning a layout: room size, money, skill level at start of project, DCC vs DC, how many operators, is help needed or even available, tools for construction ( do you even own a saw), what scale to model, can my eyes and finger dexterity handle N or Z scale or even HO scale for that matter,.....the list can be longer, but the reader of this thread will get the point.
Good luck with your layout Ken, and I wish you many more years of MRR enjoyment.

[cuyama]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Eriediamond

Also my fingers and rest of body aren't as nimble as they used to be and installing decoders in N scale locos is not a challenge I want to undertake.
<snip>
I would imagine there will be a lot of new people starting in the hobby in a couple of months, It's getting that time of year again.

Ken, I understand your reasons for staying with DC. But just to those two points. Anyone who is starting new in the hobby today will be able to take advantage of the growing number of N scale locomotives with DCC already installed (e.g., Atlas) or with an easy-to-use DCC plug (e.g., Con-Cor GS-4 steamer).

Regards,

Byron

[joeyegarner]

I have been facing the same delima. I have been a traditional DC user for 30 years, but the fact is that the wiring with DC can it's self be fairly complex and tough to operate for others. My son and I have been exploring the idea of DCC.... the one thing I have thought of is all the decoders. I have over 20 locos and would want to use almost all of them if I change over. I am still in the planniing stages too. Iknow all the pros and cons of each system but I'm still up in the air on my decision. So, tell me how you guys feel??

[Eriediamond]

Byron, Yep, I agree with ya here. I also think that more and more DCC equiped items will be offered in the future and the the plug and play thing will become more and more popular as time goes on. We are in the times of a great transition era as far as modeling is concerned or controlling our models is more correct. I meant not to put DCC down or discourage anyone from starting or converting to it. It does, after all, have a lot ot offer and does in a lot of repects simplifiy things. I still maintain though, that it is not a have to have item to get started in this hobby or by not having DCC does not make you less of a model railroader. I hope that my opinions are not taken as an argument against it. Respectfully Ken

[jxtrrx]

Ken, You are certainly correct. And Joey... right you are about the difficulty of considering DCC when you already own a fleet of older engines. But after I swithed to DCC, I couldn't believe the thrill of that experience! More important than the simplification of wiring is the amazing experience of running two (or more) trains at the same time, on the same track at different speeds (or even in different directions). If you care about multiple trains running, DCC just can't be beat.

[Anonymous]

I couldn't have said it better. I'm modeling the late 1800s. At first, I thought about computer programming, route mapping and the whole bit. But all of a sudden, I found myself wanting to be much more prototypical than I ever imagined. Bearing that in mind, now I am planning to use ground throws. The only reason I went DCC was the operation of several locomotives on the same line at once. That's reason enough for me. You just cannot do it in DC, no matter how you wire it. Also as well, I've seen several references to how costly DCC is in comparison to DC. This is simply untrue. When taking into consideration all the extra relays, switches and wiring for DC(and you must for a proper comparison) DCC wins hands down. Although you probably wouldn't want to do it, you could run DCC with only two wires. I am almost going to do just that. All I will have is the buss and feeders. There's just no reason to use DC anymore, unless you like life complicated and expensive.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jxtrrx

Ken, You are certainly correct. And Joey... right you are about the difficulty of considering DCC when you already own a fleet of older engines. But after I swithed to DCC, I couldn't believe the thrill of that experience! More important than the simplification of wiring is the amazing experience of running two (or more) trains at the same time, on the same track at different speeds (or even in different directions). If you care about multiple trains running, DCC just can't be beat.

[selector]

If I may, DCC is so much simpler in so many respects. I acknowledge, believe me , the huge stick that is limited funds. I also know that time bleeds away like the smallest capillary when one is young, but is an arterial gusher as one approaches one's twilight years...sorry if the metaphor is odd.

If I were to advise someone in your situation, Ken, I would encourage you to do what you think best for the reasons you think are the most cogent. I would also, however, point out the apparent inconsistency of your conclusion that time is too short to deal with a new technology when the principal benefit of that technology is the very simplicity, with its inherent reductions in the demands on your precious time, that you have indicated is such a weighty factor in your deliberation!

Ken, DCC is so much simpler to wire for a modest layout that you will be running trains far more realistically, and so much the earlier, than if you were to indulge your need for the familiar, but much more time-consuming, methods of wiring for DC.

I would say to the thee, O Lone Wolf, that thou must perforce shuck thy yoke and engage the help of those nearby who would help you to make the transition. State up front that you need them for this purpose mainly, and that you hope they will do as you ask.

You may be pleasantly surprised. If they decline, you are no worse off.

Most respectfully,

[robengland]

***: As discussed, DCC is quicker, simpler and - if approached carefully - cheaper than DC.

One bus, no panels, no switches. Well, almost none. I'm putting in a yard control panel and a staging control panel, just so I can kill power to tracks with standing locos on them.

For a lone-wolf mobile-home N-scale layout, you can buy a nice cheap bottom end DCC system. No need for boosters or power districts. Buying locos with decoders factory-installed is not that expensive unless you were planning on buying second hand.

It is worth investing in auto-reversers for return loops etc. There are some pretty cheap ones around.

Just don't get tempted by all the gadgets: sound, decoder-controlled turnouts, detection, signals, radio control, extra throttles....

DCC-equipped locos will get cheaper and more common. It'll be standard in a few years.


Joey: if you like tinkering with locos, then installing decoders is fun. It takes about an evening per loco. Plenty of decoders are under twenty bucks each. I recommend the T1 from TCS. 20 locos is no big deal if you plan say a one year upgrade program.

[jxtrrx]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Just don't get tempted by all the gadgets: sound, decoder-controlled turnouts, detection, signals, radio control, extra throttles....

Ah, that not getting tempted thing... now there's the hard part. [:)]
(My radio contolled throttle and receiver are due to arrive this week.)

[Anonymous]

What! some modellers don't enjoy making rats nests?

[Anonymous]

Well, this modeller doesn't enjoy making rats nests but is still DC. One of my concerns with switching to DCC is the possible difficulty diagnosing problems. With DC, rats nest or no rats nest, I can diagnose a problem. Now, my knowledge of DCC is almost zip. My concern, at this point, is that it will make diagnosing problems very difficult. I model N scale and I would not consider most N scale locos as DCC friendly. For those of us who alredy have many older N scale locomotives, this is a biggie. I don't know the percent of N scale locos that come decoder ready, but major manufacturers like Atlas are still producing many new locomotives which are not decoder ready. As for expense, if you have built a DC layout then you have already paid for that rat's nest of wires. I am not against DCC and probably will eventually end up going that route. That said, if you are established in DC, especially in the smallest scales, switching to DCC is a daunting prospect. One of my co-workers has a saying that I find true to some extent. "The witch you know is better than the witch you do not know."

[Anonymous]

Why would diagnosis be more difficult? That's the only reason I use blocked districts in my DCC layout. In case of a short, I can isolate it right quick like. You don't HAVE to use blocks and districts with DCC, but you CAN. That's what I like about it. Freedom.

QUOTE: Originally posted by WVHagan

Well, this modeller doesn't enjoy making rats nests but is still DC. One of my concerns with switching to DCC is the possible difficulty diagnosing problems. With DC, rats nest or no rats nest, I can diagnose a problem. Now, my knowledge of DCC is almost zip. My concern, at this point, is that it will make diagnosing problems very difficult. I model N scale and I would not consider most N scale locos as DCC friendly. For those of us who alredy have many older N scale locomotives, this is a biggie. I don't know the percent of N scale locos that come decoder ready, but major manufacturers like Atlas are still producing many new locomotives which are not decoder ready. As for expense, if you have built a DC layout then you have already paid for that rat's nest of wires. I am not against DCC and probably will eventually end up going that route. That said, if you are established in DC, especially in the smallest scales, switching to DCC is a daunting prospect. One of my co-workers has a saying that I find true to some extent. "The witch you know is better than the witch you do not know."

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by joeyegarner

I have over 20 locos and would want to use almost all of them if I change over. I am still in the planniing stages too. Iknow all the pros and cons of each system but I'm still up in the air on my decision. So, tell me how you guys feel??

Truthfully, Once you get past the first one, your learning curve is pretty much peaked for installations. If you can dismantle the locomitive and solder a wire, you can install a decoder.. On older ones, usually the biggest task is making sure the motor is isolated from the Trucks or wheels (not necassarily the frame). Then determining how best to install the lighting. Again, once you get past the first one, you'll be an expert. Just don't pay the extra $3 or $4 for a decoder with a plug.. You'll be clipping it off anyway.

Jeff

[jfugate]

I believe DCC will become the way you run model trains in the future. DC will become just an oddity for the curious.

Just like the way today model airplanes are radio controlled if you want to do anything serious.

[oleirish]

IMHO DCC is cool ! but like me,I have 20+ locos and De-coders are around 15 to 20 dollors a peace,that adds up to a lot of cash out lay,so my solution is an DPDT switch to switch between DC and DCC,I'am an lone wolf also,I have two decoders so far.This systeam works for me!! Someday more de-coders???
JIM

[fwright]

I will probably end up going down the DCC route at some point in the near future, mainly to avoid having to line up block toggles on a small layout.

But for now, there is one advantage to having at least some DC that has not been mentioned - a test track for breaking-in locomotives or testing mechanisms as I build a kit. I believe both these functions are better served with straight DC, even if the final step is bringing a decoder into the picture. With DC, meters are truly useful for monitoring the break-in or test. On a kit, I can substitute an old frame motor while getting the gearbox(es) and chassis to run smoothly and quietly, and monitor what the mechanism is doing without the decoder "helping" me overcome mechanism problems.

Anything else I could say would duplicate what others have said.

it's all analog in the end...digital just ain't natural!
Fred Wright
an analog human locked in a digital paradigm

[Anonymous]

I was a longtime DCC holdout, switched, and would never go back. I got overly-into it, went down the road of computer control, throwing switches from the throttle and all the like. In the layout, I'll use DCC for running the trains only. At that, it is STILL far and away preferable to me. I absolutely enjoy the freedom from toggle-flipping my way around a layout, I enjoy running the trains more protoypically, and I enjoy the far simpler wiring.

Let's not forget sound either. Sound decoders are addictive. Having had one, "silent running" will never be the same (nor will piped-in sounds from speakers around the place). DCC is, for all practical purposes, a prerequisite for in-loco sound. Sure some systems, notably QSI, will work with DC. But it's a royal pain (either you have very limited sound capabilities from switching polarity, or you have to have a whole separate "sidekick" controller for sounds...).

So I'll just leave it with this. I was similar in feeling DCC was gimmicky, overrated, expensive and not at all necessary. I've come full circle to view it as simply the current standard. It's to DC was DC was to wind-up trains in the 30's and 40's: the next generation of control. Who knows, in 50 years, they might be selling DC-based trains on E*Bay as collectibles... I can see it now "original wiring! Never converted to DCC!!!"

[grayfox1119]

{blue] ROB [/blue] Don't need to convince me Rob, I'm building my 1st layout now and it is DCC all the way, wireless NCE.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kchronister
I was similar in feeling DCC was gimmicky, overrated, expensive and not at all necessary. I've come full circle to view it as simply the current standard. It's to DC was DC was to wind-up trains in the 30's and 40's: the next generation of control.

Yep, I completely agree.

How many out there who have tried both DC and DCC still prefer DC? Not very many. DC's cheaper, only if you have a small layout or already own a gazzillion locos you'd prefer not to convert, and you don't ever intend to run more than two trains at once.

Otherwise, DCC for medium to large layouts where you want to run more than 2 trains, apples to apples -- DCC is no more expensive than DC.

By comparing apples to apples, I mean you need to compare a deluxe DC power pack ($60+) with what DCC gives you ... very fine slow speed control, momentum, constant brightness headlights, etc.

[Anonymous]

I have become intrigued with DCC since talking with Tom on this forum last week. I was kind of deflated when I saw how few new N scale engines come decoder ready. DCC has been around a few years now. My latest Atlas purchases (RS 1s & U25Bs) are not decoder ready. The Lifelike FA2/FB2 combo are not decoder ready and they are new. It would tickle me to death if somebody told me I didn't know what I was talking about and that those engines were decoder ready. The last time Atlas ran the N scale U25s in C&O livery was in the early 1990s! Maybe manufacturers will help us N scalers out by making more DCC friendly/ decoder ready locomotives.