( MR TOPIC ) Question about signal systems...

[icmr]

My friend is wanting to put a signal system on his layout but does not want to use a computer. How would he do this?



ICMR

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[Anonymous]

Thank you for posting this topic icmr. I am the "wonderful friend". lol Ok, what I am wanting to do is have a signal system on my layout that is very similar to the NS signal system here on the Illinois Division. Here, we have Automatic Block Signals. We do not have CTC signals. The turnouts have a switch indicator light that shows whether or not the turnout has been manually locked for the main or siding. The siding has a triple color light that tells a train on the siding whether or not it can enter the main. Plus, there are two triple light signals on a tall pole that tell the train whether or not the main is clear ahead. What I am wanting to know is: IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE THIS TYPE OF AUTOMATIC SIGNAL SYSTEM USING NO COMPUTER AND NO DCC SYSTEM? I WOULD WANT TO BUILD THIS USING MY OWN CIRCUIT BOARDS THAT I BUILD. This is a summarized list of everything that I have that I might use: MRC TECH 4 220 POWER PAC, NJ INTERNATIONAL SIGNALS, WIRES, CIRCUIT BOARDS AND CIRCUITS SOLDERED ON TOP, DETECTORS. So, first of all would this work, YES OR NO and try to explain how I would go about building this.
Thanks.

[MP173]

Cant answer your question, but I have one for you.

After a train leaves the siding, do they close the switch, or leave it open for the next train?

I am somewhat familar with that line, having seen it back in the 70's. How many trains are they running on that these days?

ed

[icmr]

Well, here in Golden Gate they don't switch the turnout to leave unless the local leaves its cars on the siding while switching the elevator. As for total amount of trains, I would say about 15 to 20 in a 24hr period.



ICMR

Happy railroading.[swg][swg]

[Anonymous]

Usually to enter the siding, they'll switch the turnout and lock it in place. After getting completely onto the siding they lock it back. Now, when they're leaving the siding, they don't lock the turnout for the siding, they just approach the turnout and bang it back so that the train can enter the main. After the train is gone and a few seconds go by, the turnout slowly moves back into it's locked position on it's own.

[Anonymous]

Ummm, you have everyone here over the age of 40 weeping with nostalgia for all the things that could (and still can) be done with switches and relays. I guess it's fair to say a fully manual relay system can open switches and provide a two-color ABS system. I am tempted to say it could handle multiple colors because after all, traffic lights were around for 50 years + before anyone thought of putting microchips in them. I don't know about the ability to handle other variables (flashing lights) other than it takes a pretty tough fuse to handle a bridged circuit like that.

Overall, I'd say there's a hell of a lot you could do without resorting to computers. Lots of people know more than I do and I hope they'll post here. Strictly speaking, real CTC doesn't require a computer (it debut'ed in the 1920s, after all), but after a time I would think it could get very tiring trying to work a couple of circuit boards along with several rheostatic transformers. Probably cheaper to go the DCC route, too, but again I wait on my betters for that answer.

[richardy]

The quick answer is yes you can, I have built several ABS systems using TTL circuits. I have never used the commercial boards because they did not do what I needed. My signals were not coupled to the track because I used photocell detection. Turnout position was sent to the board by the auxiliary switches on the turnout motors. On manual switches we used a microswitch below the layout. Just about anything is possible but it will take time and money.

[rrinker]

You can certainly do it without a computer, but usiang a computer to drive the aspects is FAR easier than constructing an endless series of logic gates to dot he same job. ANd a lot easier to change should you add a new siding, or take one out. Just take a look at the series on APB signals in MR a few years ago, no computer needed. But 4 or 5 logic boards PER PLANT and that was just for APB signals, for realistic signalling you need more than just he APB signals!
Cost really isn't a factor either - an older, slower computer is plenty powerful enough to drive a rather large railroad's signals, and they can be had in the free to $100 range - no more expensive, and probably CHEAPER than the parts and circuit boards to do it all in hardware!

--Randy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

You can certainly do it without a computer, but usiang a computer to drive the aspects is FAR easier than constructing an endless series of logic gates to dot he same job. ANd a lot easier to change should you add a new siding, or take one out. Just take a look at the series on APB signals in MR a few years ago, no computer needed. But 4 or 5 logic boards PER PLANT and that was just for APB signals, for realistic signalling you need more than just he APB signals!
Cost really isn't a factor either - an older, slower computer is plenty powerful enough to drive a rather large railroad's signals, and they can be had in the free to $100 range - no more expensive, and probably CHEAPER than the parts and circuit boards to do it all in hardware!

--Randy

Randy

What is the connection between the PC and the signal? Do they make a board already that you plug or wire into a buss? I know Bruce Chubbs had articles in MR many years ago.

[cwclark]

here is a great electronic project for signalling..it is a step by step instruction with a parts list to build the train detection circuit and even build the searchlight targets...
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/electric.htm

chuck

[jrbernier]

Or buy a system(standalone), will work on DC/DCC, and you can have ABS/APB, and even 'approach lit' signals. Cost is not cheap$200-$400 for 8 blocks).

http://www.logicrailtech.com/

http://www.wsaeng.com/Signaling_Solution/

Jim Bernier

[robengland]

A computer with a DCC interface is the cheapest option I know of. It is also the most flexible. If you build a hardwired system you better have the design right - pretty hard to fix or change it.
As Randy said, an old PC, free JMRI software, a LocoBuffer or similar, and the cheaper stationary decoders and you are under way

[nbrodar]

Do you want realistic signals or just signals? I use DC cab control, and simply wire the signal heads to the track power, green/red based on polarity. I also wire in a second head to show turnout position, where approprate.

Not prototypical but it works for me.

You could also use occupancy detectors and signal drivers, for a more prototpical setup. Two MR articles to check out, Simple Circuits for ABS, March and April 2001.

Nick Brodar

[rrinker]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dthurman
Randy

What is the connection between the PC and the signal? Do they make a board already that you plug or wire into a buss? I know Bruce Chubbs had articles in MR many years ago.

Several methods - Bruce Chubb's system is still available in kit, built-up, and plain circuit board form. Trac-Tronics has a similar system.With a Locobuffer and a DCC system (not necessarily Digitrax - even the Digitrax SE8C signal driver can work without a Digitrax command station, and there are plenty of third-part Loconet interface devices) you ca dot he same thing - and it's suprisingly inexpensive. The SE8C controls 32 signal heads and has 16 inputs for block detectors and only costs $125 (list)! Less than $40 of boards and parts gets you enough of Rob Paisley's detectors to handle 10 blocks. Comared tot he cost of the C/MRi system - it's not even close. Plus I will already have the Loconet bus run since I DO use Digitrax. No sense running another bus, and paying a lot more money for the interface cards.

--Randy

[Don Gibson]

WORKING SIGNALS immeasurably add to the realism and pleasure of working a layout. 1. BUY a system (aint cheap) 2. BUILD from kit's (tedius & takes time).

BASIC NEEDS Searchlight signals: 2 aspect (red green or 3 (red green yellow ). 2 per gap (bi-direction).

CONTROLLER: Turn's on signals - interlock's (for sequencing).

DETECTION: Resistance; I.R. , or relay's. Resistance detect's occupancy - whether powered or not.

HERE'S a 'one stop service: http://www.integratedsignalsystems.com/Default.htm

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the replys. I have found an article on Model Railroader that talks about how to build circuit boards and wire up 3 color signals. It helped out some but still didn't quite answer all of my questions. These replies definetely have helped answer my questions. Thanks.