Camelbacks

[tatans]

Other than cooking the engineer, what was the purpose of running the locomotive while sitting on the boiler? my, THAT must have been comfortable at 110 degrees! ! and what facilities were back there with the fireman? did it have a seat, a window, how did he communicate with the hogger?

[howmus]

Camelbacks (aka Old Mother Hubbards) were anthracite (hard coal) burners. Anthracite burns much cleaner than bituminous and were used by several roads in passenger service primarily. There were great ads for the Reading with Pheobe Snow and her White dress ridng the road of Anthracite. Anthracite requiers a much larger (wider) firebox to be able to produce enough heat to fire the boiler. With a wider firebox, the Engineer had reduced or no forward visibility. Putting the cab midships allowed him to have a good view of the road.

[ndbprr]

Yes the anthracite roads burned anthracite but that in itself is not the reason for the relocation of the engineer. There was no market for the fines generated at the mines so the Wooten firebox was invented. The design was a much wider and longer bed in the firebox so the velocity of the air through the fire wouldn't send it up the stack. Since the firebox was basically wider than the locomotive the engineer had to be relocated. I'm not so sure it was any hotter than being near the uninsulated back wall of the boiler since the exterior of the boiler is insulated and jacketed. OF more concern was a rod coming undone and destroying the cab and its contents. A boiler explosion also was usually catastrophic with no chance of survival either. Hence they were outlawed eventually around the time that diesels came along. Those existing could be run until retirement and CNJ still had one into the late 50's.

[CNJ831]

More importantly than just for a better view, the engineer's cab was placed astride the boiler simply because there was no room for it at the rear unless it was elevated above the firebox (tried by the P&R unsuccessfully very early on). I seem to recall the D&H did eventually manage in hanging a truncated cab off the back of the firebox on a few Wootten fireboxed engines but it really wasn't a good practice.

As to the fireman, his lot was an awful one. On the pitching footplate he had little shelter, no seat, and was kept from falling off the moving engine usually just by a pair chains stretched between the engine and tender. Communications with the engineer was almost impossible and, when absolutely necessary, was done by shouting or when at a station stop.

The heat from the boiler made the engineer's location almost impossible and you will often find photos of camelbacks at speed with the engineer hanging out of the cab window seated on the window armrest. And camelback engineers almost always wore aviator goggles!

The perilous practice of sitting on the window armrest sometimes resulted in the engineer falling off the engine. Often his loss would not be noticed by the fireman until the train had passed a scheduled station stop or destination! And one need not mention the dire results of a main rod failure on the engineer. Fireman also disappeared off camelbacks from time to time, an event typically recognized only after the steam pressure started to drop!

Little wonder that new construction of these engines was out-lawed roughly around 1920.

CNJ831

[howmus]

A definitive disertation on the "Old Mother Hubbard" aka Camelback can be found here: http://www.steamlocomotive.com/camelback/

All of the replies so far are actually correct.

[rrinker]

And then there are the unrelated 'Camels' as designed by Ross Winans for the B&O....

[pcarrell]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

And then there are the unrelated 'Camels' as designed by Ross Winans for the B&O....

Making escape in the event of an emergency even more dangerous! Kind of gives a new meaning to "taking to the birds" doesn't it?! [8D]

(the "cab" was on TOP of the boiler)

[tatans]

Just read the site mentioned above, the camelback and Mother hubbard are 2 different type of locomotives, although they look similar, NOW the big question, if the cab over the boiler on the right side is for the engineer, what was the cab on the other side used for? who sat (fried?) there? and from the photos, pity that poor fireman, what a job! !

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Just read the site mentioned above, the camelback and Mother hubbard are 2 different type of locomotives, although they look similar, NOW the big question, if the cab over the boiler on the right side is for the engineer, what was the cab on the other side used for? who sat (fried?) there? and from the photos, pity that poor fireman, what a job! !

I'd be interested in knowing what the difference was as I have always heard that they were both nicknames for the same loco. Here is a quote from an article about an accident on the N.Y.O.&W on August 3rd. 1902. "Early on, some cramped camelback crewman had compared riding in the narrow cab of a camelback locomotive to being locked inside a kitchen cupboard, giving rise to the other popular nickname for camelback locomotives – "Mother Hubbard," as in "Old Mother Hubbard's Cupboard" from the familiar child's rhyme."

Go to: http://www.nyow.org/glory.html It is footnote #2. There are many other references calling them Camelbacks and Old Mother Hubbards interchangably. Not doubting you, I would just like to know what the difference is and which is which.

[rrinker]

"Camelback" and "Mother Hubbard" refer to the same type of locomotive. A "Camel" however, is completely different. A Camel has the cab on TOP of the boiler, not astride it like the others.

[howmus]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

"Camelback" and "Mother Hubbard" refer to the same type of locomotive. A "Camel" however, is completely different. A Camel has the cab on TOP of the boiler, not astride it like the others.

That's what I thought!

[tatans]

From "steamlocomotives.co/camelback::: The Wooten boilered Mother Hubbard loco (often called Camelbacks today) should not be confused with the earlier true camelback locos that were eveloped and built by Ross Winans @1847. The RW locos had the cab on TOP of the boiler & burned anthracite coal in narrow fireboxes situated between the driving wheels, these were originally called "Camels" or "Camelbacks"
More recent locos (since 1877) had a central cab astride the boiler with wide Wooten fireboxes above the drivers and are more accuratley called "Mother Hubbards". However in later years they were loosely called "Camelbacks" And still no one knows who sat on the the other cab on the other side,surely someone knows.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans
More recent locos (since 1877) had a central cab astride the boiler with wide Wooten fireboxes above the drivers and are more accuratley called "Mother Hubbards". However in later years they were loosely called "Camelbacks" And still no one knows who sat on the the other cab on the other side,surely someone knows.

In fact, the full cab was mainly for the sake of balancing the locomotive and the "fireman's side" was rarely ever occuppied, other than by the occasional supervisor or master road mechanic. In a few, very rare, instances, camelbacks had just the engineer's side of the cab present, the opposite side kinda wrapping around the boiler! Perhaps these were rebuilds following a fireman's side rod failure? Incidentally, I've seen a few photos of camelbacks having experienced a main rod failure...nasty!

CNJ831

[rrinker]

Where'd the head-end brakeman sit?

[pcarrell]

That famous "rod failure" has been accurately described as "wiping the clock". Thats something to think about, huh? ( Nasty, Nasty business, that railroading stuff! )