Confused with DCC

[Anonymous]

I have 4X6 layout, planning to extend in the future. Bought some Atlas HO Code 83 tracks (After
reading , learning decided for Atlas HO Code 83 tracks). Now I am planning to invest in DCC.
I have looked at Super Empire Builder Set and need help from this forum guru's.

I have learned that the following items are used for...

One Command Station (Controlling 8-10 locomotives)

One Booster & Power Supply (Need power to run all locomotives)

One Throttle (Kind of remote to control multiple locomotives)

One or more Mobile Decoders (Its a chip that installs on locomotive)

Loco Net (Not sure what it is)

I have following questions..

Any suggestions for the DCC brand, I can invest around 300-400$ ?
I will love to connect to computer and control the trains.

Will DCC also take care of turnouts ? I did not ready any where about
turnouts . I want some good advanced way to control turnouts.

I have never used soldering before and I don't have any knowledge about
circuits , wires.

I have been browsing web sites and not able to understand/follow it.
I will help any appreciate.


Thanks
Ken

[Anonymous]

Check out this thread a little further down in the forum -- I think it'll answer a lot of your questions: http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=36389.

[tstage]

Ken,

There are a few ways you can go.

QUOTE: Any suggestions for the DCC brand, I can invest around 300-400$ ?
I will love to connect to computer and control the trains.

Since you are only running a 4 x 6' layout, I would suggest going with a starter DCC system like the Digitrax Zephyr or CVP EasyDCC. The SEB set may be a bit of overkill for your situation.

Both the Zephyr and EasyDCC are expandible. So....as your layout gets bigger, boosters and extra trottles can be added in fairly easily. You can also hook up wireless. The Zephyr can be had for around $150-160. If you are wanting to go wireless, and you can spend $300-400 (as you stated in your post), the cost of the Zephyr would allow you to do that in your budget. I think wirelss will run you an additional $150(?) or so.

QUOTE: Will DCC also take care of turnouts ? I did not ready any where about
turnouts . I want some good advanced way to control turnouts.

Yes, you can run your turnouts with your DCC system. Both the Zephyr and the EasyDCC have computer connections so you can also incorporate your computer to run your trains and turnouts, if you should desire to do so.

QUOTE: I have never used soldering before and I don't have any knowledge about
circuits , wires.

Soldering is a good skill to obtain. It's not quite as daunting as some may express. It just takes a bit of practice. Once you learn, it's like riding a bicycle.

Ken, keep reading and learning. Hope that helps...

Tom

[rrinker]

Ditto. Check out the Zephyr. I do not recommend anyone by the Super EMpire Builder, other than to expand another set when you need more power and an extra throttle.

You can have as many engines as you want, there's not really a limit (unless you are some sort of super collector - there are over 9000 possible addresses!). The limit is on how many you can run at once. I ave the first phase of my layout operating, which is 8x12. I've run up to 8 locos at the same time with my Zephyr, and that took a lot of hand action to keep them in line for a few trips around just to see if it would work - in other wrds, 8 locos on an 8x12 was mighty cramped in running space. So on a 4x6 I can't see realistically runnign mroe than 2-3 at the same time - something the Zephyr is quite capable of doing. Since buying my Zephyr I have added a Locobuffer to interface my computer to use DecoderPro, and I added a DT400 throttle. As I expand I will need to handle more trains, and my father in law wants a throttle, so at that point I will buy the Super Empire Builder and use it as an extra booster. The cost of the SEB is less than the individual costs of the DT400 and DB150 booster purchased seperately.
The reason I do not recommend the SEB as your ONLY set is that it does not read CV values, it can only write them. It also does not have a dedicated programming track - making it easier to goof and program more than just the one loco you intended.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

I also think that you should skip over the Super Empire Builder. You have to be much more careful with that system as you program. If you have your heart set on getting one of the more powerful starter systems like the Empire Builder (and that's cool, lots of people do), then you should really look at Digitrax's next model up, the Super Chief. Its not that much more money. NCE's Powerhouse Pro is the other popular deluxe set here in the USA.

I've used both, and I think the NCE system would be easier for a novice. Maybe I'm wrong about that; though. Both systems will have you up and running a locomotive in no time at all. After that, you learn as fast or as slow as you want to, as you become an expert.

If you don't want to throw your turnouts manually, or remotely using switches or cables affixed to your layout, then yes you can throw them with DCC. You can throw one switch at a time, or many at one time, right from your hand held throttle. You use a DCC "stationary" decoder to operate the switch machine. Stationary decoders are used to remotely operate things on your layout, other than engines.

While many people here are eager to answer any questions you may have (remember, there are no dumb questions), DCC is like anything else in life ...... you really should do your homework. So, not only look over the web sites, but down load some manuals, etc. Sit in your favorite chair, with your favorite beverage, and take your time and read.

This is fun stuff, and it is not rocket science.

Jim

[dgwinup]

My favorite reading chair is in that little room with the bathtub.

Darrell, really quiet...for now

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the suggestions !! I was thinking of Super Empire Builder because it includes DT400 Super Infra-Ready Throttle and I may not have to buy any more add on's. I will download and read the manuals. I will do some more research on Zephyr.
Any idea about Super Chief 8 Amp Starter Set w/DCS200, will it have all the items included in Randy's suggestions.

How difficult/easy it is to install Stationary decoders ?

I am sorry for asking so many questions. I am planning to purchase DCC this month and want to know/learn as much I can.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. !!

Ken

[Anonymous]

That Super Chief 8 amp is a top-of-the-line system, and really would be way overkill for a 4x6 layout. Randy gave you a good suggestion to look at the Zephyr -- it's a great starter set, and can be expanded with other Digitrax equipment through LocoNet (a kind-of local area network for Digitrax equipment). I have the Zephyr and am very pleased with it. As Randy said, you can use Decoder Pro with a Locobuffer II to program decoders and run trains through a computer, and there are always expansion throttles for sale at decent prices on eBay if you really decide you want to go IR at some point, or just want the flexibility to walk around your layout.

Have you checked the Digitrax website (http://www.digitrax.com)? They have really good info there on all there stuff, and manuals you can download and read at your leisure. Another good source of info is Tony's Train Exchange at http://www.tonystrains.com.

[BRVRR]

Ken,
Joe, Randy and Tom, are right. For a 4x6 layout an expandable starter set is all you need. The first or second iteration of the BRVRR was a 4x6. I received a Zephyr as a Christmas present (my choice) and had it up and running with a DC loco in about 10 minutes. Installing my first decoder in an Athearn BB loco took longer, but the results were satisfactory.
The present BRVRR is a 4x10. The Zephyr handles it without problems. I have added a DT400 throttle to my system. I have 5-independent throttles for the RR (Two MRC power Packs on the 'jump ports'). The 2.5 amps of power from the Zephyr have never been a problem for me. I have run more than 7 locos, three or four with sound, without overloading the system.
Check out my website, link is in my signature. You can see my Zephyr installation on the layout page and my links page has several links to good "plain language" tutorials on DCC.
Good luck![:)][:)]

[Anonymous]

Hi, again, Ken

Yes. If you are interested in the Super Empire Builder, then the Super Chief has everything you want, including the throttle you want, and the Super Chief is easier to program with.

The Super Chief comes in a 5 amp system, which is the most popular. Not much cheaper, though.

The Zephyr, plus a DT400, adds up to almost the cost of a Super Chief, but you have to buy the power supply for the Super Chief, another $35 for the popular DCC Specialties MF615 power supply.

You sound like you may want or need a hand held throttle from the start. That was my situation. All I have is a small switching layout, but I like to be right with the engines that I am switching with. I didn't even really have a spot for the Zephyr console. So, a full function handheld was for me, either the Digitrax or the NCE. I have since bought two cheaper "utility" throttles, which I use for just running the engines and the switches, and not much else. They are small throttles, with a big 'ol knob on them for yard duty. Both Digitax and NCE make them. Although, I don't think you can throw switches with the Digitrax utility throttle. I could be wrong again.

Don't get me wrong,,,,,there is nothing wrong with a console system. I just had no use for it. (At Chirstmas I love using my big, old Lionel ZW console .... just like Gomez Adams!).

So, I spent just a few more dollars and got a 5 amp system with a handheld throttle, and it came with the wiring to connect everyting, right out of the box. Like me, you'll be running in 20 minutes.

My layout is small, but it is busy. I have a couple of friends that mess around with it along with me. Switching engines, both diesel and steam, are pushing around freight cars all over the place. We have others just idling, waiting for thier work, just sitting there snorting and growling. You're going to like this stuff, believe me.

Stationary decoders are simple to install......just simple wiring ......no space constrictions like mobile decoders. Tony's website compares and contrasts the different stationary decoders, and gives suggestions as to which decoder to use with which switch machine.

I hope you are buying your DCC stuff from good place. Someplace that is honest, wants to help you, not a place that wants to push wrong stuff on you so he can get rid of stock. If you don't have a nice place right near you, it would be a good idea to travel a bit to deal with a good guy. And, of course, there are good guys on the internet, who are honest and helpful over the phone. Two of them are Tony's Train Exchange in Vermont and Litchfield Station in Arizona.

Don't be afraid of this stuff! It really is simple! You really will be up and running an engine in 20 minutes. You';ll be an expert in no time.

Jim

[grandeman]

If you're looking for the handheld throttle, it can easily be added to the Zephyr. I was considering the SEB but, with it's write only programming, went for the Super Chief. Couldn't be happier with my choice. If you go with the Chief, you're set from now on, even if your next layout covers the whole basement.

BTW, loconet is simply a computer network between components done with telephone cable. It's a great "plug and play" system of adding to a Digitrax system.

[rrinker]

The 8 amp system would be WAY overkill for your size layout. But at least you are asking - we had a fellow come in to the LHS from 3/4 of the way across the state looking for help, his local shop sold him an 8-amp Super Chief to run his 4x8 Snap-Track layout. I really hate unscrupulous dealers who take advantage of customers like that.
The nice advantage of using the Zephyr plus a DT400 is you end up with 2-4 throttles, not just one. The DT400, the Zephyr console, and if you have a pair of old DC packs, you can hook them to the 'Jump Ports' on the Zephyr and control 2 more trains.

--Randy

[grandeman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

The 8 amp system would be WAY overkill for your size layout. But at least you are asking - we had a fellow come in to the LHS from 3/4 of the way across the state looking for help, his local shop sold him an 8-amp Super Chief to run his 4x8 Snap-Track layout. I really hate unscrupulous dealers who take advantage of customers like that.
The nice advantage of using the Zephyr plus a DT400 is you end up with 2-4 throttles, not just one. The DT400, the Zephyr console, and if you have a pair of old DC packs, you can hook them to the 'Jump Ports' on the Zephyr and control 2 more trains.

--Randy

Hey Randy, I always enjoy your posts and agree with this one but I'd like to point out a couple of things.

First looking at this from another angle, if a beginner buys an 8A Super Chief, at least he won't have to spend more $$$ to upgrade later. I agree it's overkill, but the optimist in me hopes that a few years down the road the new modeler will have a basement full of trains. Just another take on it...

Also, I'd prefer to have a couple of DT400's alone. The jump port idea is great, but you'd end up with lots of "stuff" cluttering a small layout area. With the DT400's recall feature, running multiple trains is no problem, especially on a smaller layout where there wouldn't be many running at once anyway.

[rrinker]

Good points, indeed. But I like to take advanatage of the "never thrown anything away" expandability of Digitrax. In the end, it will cost more, but each incremental step is smaller. I started with the Zephyr even though I 'know' I will need a lot more when my plans are more complete - probably a pair of 5 amp boosters, possibly more. But gettign the Zephyr allowed me to get started for about $150 vs probably STILL be waiting if I had to come up with the Super Chief price all at once.
Indeed, i do not even use the Zephyr console anymore now that I have my DT400. But I've seen plenty of pictured layouts where the console is located at a stationary operating point like a yard for that operator while UP5 panels are used for the over the road operators using handheld throttles. And of course having all those old DC packs around for the jump ports can get space consuming. There are options - on the Digitrax Yahoo group there are several simple schematics for jump throttles, I built one for < $10 of parts at Radio Shack, a amsll handheld box which was much more convenient not to mention gave better control thant he old DC power packs I had (old rheostat packs, not nice transistor ones).
Like everything else - it all depends!

--Randy

[jrbernier]

I would have agree that the Zephyr is a good starting point. A friend has a Zephyr and a pair of DT400 throttles. He has the Zephyr by his workbench/programming track/test track. Normal operation is with his 2 DT400 throttles....

Jim Bernier

[Anonymous]

I have decided to go with Zephyr. My next step will be do some research on tourn outs.
I want turn outs to be connected DCC. I don't know if its possible or not.

Thanks for all the help, suggestions. It's a great place to learn.

Ken

[Anonymous]

Yes, it is quite possible to control turnouts with DCC. There are a variety of stationary decoders available for turnouts, though for my money the NCE Switch-It (for Tortoise-type motors) and Snap-It (for Atlas-type snap switches ) are the best bang for the buck.

[Anonymous]

Why do you need to spend so much money for a power set for a 4 x 6 HO layout? If you just have that much money, send me some. I would go with the digitrax Zephyr and be done with it.

[Anonymous]

On30Shay,

I am planning to extend it, now I have changed the layout to 4X8. I want to still add some more layouts. I want to explore all the possibilities with Digitrax Zephyr.

jsalemi - Can you please let me know some more detail of the turnouts. Do I need to drill my plywood for the turnouts. ? Do I need to do any soldering work ? How expensive they are ?

Ken

[Anonymous]

Turnout decoders are cheaper the more you buy.....kinda like drugs. I think you can get the Digitrax units as cheap as seven or eight bucks each if you buy alot. Otherwise they go for around 9-11 bucks. Yeah, you're gonna need to know how to solder. Yeah you're gonna need to drill holes for the decoder wires. I mount my decoders under the benchwork, and out of sight. The Zephyr can control up to 999 stationery decoders.

QUOTE: Originally posted by kenneth19usa

On30Shay,

I am planning to extend it, now I have changed the layout to 4X8. I want to still add some more layouts. I want to explore all the possibilities with Digitrax Zephyr.

jsalemi - Can you please let me know some more detail of the turnouts. Do I need to drill my plywood for the turnouts. ? Do I need to do any soldering work ? How expensive they are ?

Ken

[Anonymous]

You said you were also going to get some hand held throttles for your layout. Since you want DCC control of your turnouts, if you are buying a Digitrax system realize that their new utility throttle will not operate stationary decoders ..... you'll need DT400's, etc.

Jim

[jfugate]

Although turnout control can be connected to DCC, other than the "coolness" factor, I'm wondering why you feel turnouts need to be controlled by DCC?

I find it's way simpler all the way around to just control the turnout with a switch or mechanism right on the fascia at the turnout. If you insist that DCC control the turnout, the complexity factor goes up (more money, more decoders, more mental load on your brain to figure out how to throw *that* turnout).

Plus there's the notion of "non-railroad thoughts" when you are operating. Anything that reminds you you're running a MODEL will break the illusion. Real railroaders don't push a button on the throttle panel to throw the turnout in front of them. They either walk over to the turnout and operate something right at the turnout to throw it, or the dispatcher throws it for them via CTC.

For a CTC panel, DCC could help, but unless you are going that route on your layout, I personally feel DCC controlled turnouts are overkill.

[steffd]

I would suggest considering a system that will be suitable for the size of your layout and provide you with the features you are looking for while at the same time remain relatively simple to use during the learning curve.

I would also recommend you consider future Computer Operation, where you could perform dispatching via CTC panel on your computer as well as rout and throw your turnouts, run and track your train or even program you decoders more quickly and easily. This will provide a lot more flexibility and enjoyment especially on a smaller layout without running miles of wire or bulky control panels. Also, a smaller less costly system is the best way to go when starting out, you can always upgrade later if you fell it is necessary.

Ideal systems would be the “Digitrax Zephyr” (www.digitrax.com) or the “Atlas Commander” System (By Lenz www.lenz.com) with its DCC turnout control modules, as both systems can be upgraded with add-on accessories and modules for future expansion. I included a link for the Atlas system for information purposes only: http://www.blwnscale.com/Atlas%20DCC.htm

Stephan

[Anonymous]

I have already placed order for Digitrax Zephyr and also ordered for one Tortoise Switch Machine and Decoder-Stationary DS52 for turnouts. I will have to learn how to install this and use with Zephyr.

Thanks for all the help..
Ken

[Anonymous]

The only way I know od for computer interface with turnouts, is through DCC. In order to run turnouts with software, DCC is the only way I know of. Has a recent discovery been made to interface DC turnout control to a computer? I don't think so. At least I am not aware of it. Having computer control would certainly be a reason other than the "coolness" factor. Granted, it is much more costly, but if it's what you want, it's what you want.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Although turnout control can be connected to DCC, other than the "coolness" factor, I'm wondering why you feel turnouts need to be controlled by DCC?

I find it's way simpler all the way around to just control the turnout with a switch or mechanism right on the fascia at the turnout. If you insist that DCC control the turnout, the complexity factor goes up (more money, more decoders, more mental load on your brain to figure out how to throw *that* turnout).

Plus there's the notion of "non-railroad thoughts" when you are operating. Anything that reminds you you're running a MODEL will break the illusion. Real railroaders don't push a button on the throttle panel to throw the turnout in front of them. They either walk over to the turnout and operate something right at the turnout to throw it, or the dispatcher throws it for them via CTC.

For a CTC panel, DCC could help, but unless you are going that route on your layout, I personally feel DCC controlled turnouts are overkill.

[Anonymous]

DCC might be the easiest straight out of the box way to control turnouts through a computer interface, but it certainly isn't the only way. Almost any digital I/O card can control relays, and from there you can rule the world! It has been done for a long time.

[jfugate]

Bruce Chubb's CMRI system from the 1980s (and upgraded periodically with newer technology) allows a computer to interface with the railroad using standard serial cables (RS-232 and RS-485). You can throw turnouts, run signals, and even route power to the trains using progressive cab control.

Because CMRI has been around for so long (and is constantly updated with newer boards and add ons), there's lots of options available at very affordable prices. DCC is the new kid on the block when it comes to hooking a computer to your layout, and has fewer options and generally will cost you more.

DCC has the advantage that it's a standard, but CMRI has been so pervasive in the hobby for so many years that it's become a defacto standard as well for connecting a computer to your layout. For example, KAM software includes CMRI as well as DCC versions of their offerings.

For more, see:
http://www.jlcenterprises.net/index.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CMRI_Users/

[selector]

I like throwing switches by hand, electronically or by walking over to them. Gives me more to do, and I have to think harder about what I (the trains) are doing and going. As a bonus, things under the table and under the 'hood' are waaaaaay simpler.

[Anonymous]

I humbly stand corrected. I learned something. That's why I worded it like I did......you know...the "that I know of" ? Thanks for the info, Joe, and the rest of you as well. Actually, I have decided to run my turnouts with DC through toggles. It will be more cost effective, and I think easier and more fun.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Bruce Chubb's CMRI system from the 1980s (and upgraded periodically with newer technology) allows a computer to interface with the railroad using standard serial cables (RS-232 and RS-485). You can throw turnouts, run signals, and even route power to the trains using progressive cab control.

Because CMRI has been around for so long (and is constantly updated with newer boards and add ons), there's lots of options available at very affordable prices. DCC is the new kid on the block when it comes to hooking a computer to your layout, and has fewer options and generally will cost you more.

DCC has the advantage that it's a standard, but CMRI has been so pervasive in the hobby for so many years that it's become a defacto standard as well for connecting a computer to your layout. For example, KAM software includes CMRI as well as DCC versions of their offerings.

For more, see:
http://www.jlcenterprises.net/index.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CMRI_Users/