Two questions on Prototype locomotive use

[jacon12]

First, did the larger steam locomotives like Class A 2-6-6-4, ever used in areas that had tight switches, spurs, sidings and the like?
Second, were locomotives such as E6's ever used for mixed trains like passenger and freight service?
Jarrell

[jimrice4449]

There would be some limitations on eng size, mostly due to axle loadings. There was a sign at the east end of Mission interlocking at LAUPT "UP 3900 class (Challengers) must not use this track." In this case it was due to clearance.
As for Es in frieght service. The UP ran a (very) few mixed trains w/ Es (Spokane to Hinkle was one), but generally speaking it would be a no no. Alcos and FMs on the other hand were fairly frequently downgraded to frt or helper service but thet weren,t wildly succesfull.

[Virginian]

The answer to your first question is no, in the case of the Class A's specifically. The mains and yards on the N&W were all designed to handle every locomotive they had, so the articulated A's did not get service on smaller radii parts of the system. Several branches and mine runs did not see any A's or J's, but did see smaller locos like 4-6-2's and 4-8-0's as well as and/or 2-8-8-2's. I would guess the answer to this question would vary depending on the prototype road.
On the VGN the 2-6-6-6's were stricltly mainline power, but the mine runs could have handled the engines since they did run 2-8-8-2's and later DE-RS FM Trainmasters on those. They just didn't use them there.

[dehusman]

Very few E units were used for freight service. They were geared too high and the EMD traction motors weren't as forgiving as those produced by Alco or Baldwin. Most E units that were in freight service were used on piggyback trains or other fast service that could use their gearing. The PRR used Sharknoses on local freights, in one location, but then they had heavier traction motors.

Dave H.

[ndbprr]

Since the prr didn't have e6 engines I can't comment bu they did use E7's and E8's on tructrains in the 60's. Basically they just used them up as they were worthless for anything else. They didn't last long and atrition was very high.

[orsonroy]

By the time E's were the dominant passenger engine, most mixed trains had gone the way of the dodo. By the time E's started being bumped to freight service (as on the E-L and PC) passenger service itself had mostly disappeared too!

[AntonioFP45]

Regarding E units.

By the 1960s passenger service was declining so most of the Class 1 railroads found themselves with surplus E units. While their gear ratios were high, they were useful in high speed freight service where 60+ mph running over long stretches was required.
Locomotive engineers, in general, reported that they didn't like operating them on frieght trains due to the poor traction and rearward visibility.

Mechanics found the twin 567 diesel power systems in E units to be a bit of a headache compared to single engined hood units.

Burlington, Seaboard Coast Line, Penn Central and UP were among the railroads that used them in freight service until the high horsepowered replacements arrived in the late 60s. This is the time period when the GP40, SD40, SD45 and comparable units from GE and Alco made their debuts. Interesting note is that Seaboard Coast Line ran their E6s right on up until 1970-71. A testament to "Made in America!"

Amtrak continued using E units until their replacements arrived throught the 70s.

To me, E units were magnificent diesels. [:D][8D] I've seen too many old video clips and movies showing these babies running at 100 mph! [:p][:0] I plan on buying at least 4 more P2K E units. Since I'm modeling the 1960s, I'll be using them in freight service as well. [;)]

Cheers.

[tstage]

Jarrell,

I know the EMD FTs (around in the early 40's) were used in freight service. But I'm not sure if they were ever used for passenger service.

Tom

[Leon Silverman]

Jerrell:
Your question about using "E6's on MIXED trains like passenger and freight service? " sound like an application on a short line or narrow guage railroad. These smaller railroads did, indeed, run mixed trains that had both frieght and passenger cars, or at least a caboose that was capable of carrying some extra passengers. However, the larger railroads, like N & W and the PRR did not run mixed trains to my knowlege. Their trains were either all freight or all passenger cars, with the only distinction being the allowable operating speed. Thus, tructrains or mail trains operated at passenger speeds and consequently used the higher speed locomotives.
In the 1950's the PRR found itself with a lot of passenger diesels and no trains for them to pull. As a result, these engines were regeared for freight use prior to getting those assignments. I do not know if any E6's were "converted" The twelve-wheeled passenger diesels of that time (E's, PAs, C-liners) had unpowered center axles. While this may have improved high speed riding characteristics, they simply created additional drag on the engines when used at freight train speeds. As a result, they were not as efficient pulling the freight trains when compared to engine consists made up of eight wheeled engines (F's, FA's, Gp's). They could neither match the speed of these engines nor develop the tractive effort of the twelved-wheel freight engines that had all axles powered.

[BRAKIE]

Jarrell asks:

First, did the larger steam locomotives like Class A 2-6-6-4, ever used in areas that had tight switches, spurs, sidings and the like?
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The N&W was noted for using both the Y and B class on mine runs and in some cases locals much like today's NS uses locomotives in general service from yard work to hot shot freight..The C&O was also noted for using large locomotives on mine runs.
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Second, were locomotives such as E6's ever used for mixed trains like passenger and freight service?
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Yes in the later years these former passenger units saw limited freight service..The E-L re-geared their PAs for freight service.

[jrbernier]

Jacon,

The E units(and PA's/Erie builts/etc..) used idler axles and made poor 'freight' engines. In the case of the E, there were some attempts at using them in freight service. The BAR had a pair of E7's that were regeared(85 mph) and the electrical system was modified(make them 'load up' slower) under EMD direction. The pair were used on an overnight train for several years before being traded in on GP38's.
The Rock Island and NYC modifed surplus E's fom what I have read for similar freight service(usually expidited TOFC trains).
BN took old E7's and did not modify them at all - they just burned them up in drag service for grain rush season(just getting the last miles out of them).
Most of them had maybe 50,000 lbs of starting TE, and about 35,000 continuous TE at a minimum speed of about 20 mph. It was easy to 'spin' the wheels with a heavy train, but once up to running speed, they could fly with the wind. In passenger service, they sort of got their '2nd wind' at 70 mph and really poured it on. In freight service they were slippery, and burned up traction motors/electical systems with a little abuse.

Jim

[leighant]

Quote "I know the EMD FTs (around in the early 40's) were used in freight service. But I'm not sure if they were ever used for passenger service."

They were on the Santa Fe for a while. Here are references to some pictures of Santa Fe FTs in passenger serviice.

#158 in pass colors in 1948, RMC (Railroad Model Craftsman) Apr66 p.27

#158 w Grand Canyon at Riverside 1947, Warbonnet (Santa Fe Rwy Hist & Mod Society publication) 2Q02 p.27

#158 w Super Chief at Pasadena "Classic Trains" Summer 02 p.37

#159 in passenger service, 1949, Warbonnet 4Q95 p.18

#160 in passenger service, 1948 , Warbonnet 3Q97 p.15

#164 in passenger garb, 1947 Warbonnet 3Q97 p.13

#168 in passenger service at Lawrence KS 1950, ModRRer, Mar95 p.26

#415 in passenger service ca. 1952 Warbonnet, 4Q97 p.13

Another quote "...smaller railroads did, indeed, run mixed trains that had both frieght and passenger cars, or at least a caboose that was capable of carrying some extra passengers. However, the larger railroads, like N & W and the PRR did not run mixed trains to my knowlege. "
Maybe Santa Fe is not considered one of the larger railroads. However, it ran mixed trains on branch lines into the 1950s, in fact, the last one lasted until, would you believe, 1967! There is an entire 200-plus page book on the subject, John B. McCall's [i]Coach, Cabbage and Caboose[/1]. The title was from a slang expression from the coach-baggage-and-caboose car that ran on the end of these trains.
In diesel days, frequently pulled by road switchers. I am not familiar with any evidence of them pulled by Es.

Locomotives designed for passenger use (before 1970s head-end-electric-power) usually had a steam generator to provide steam heat and steam powered air conditioning and lighting to passenger cars. This however would have been of no use on a mixed train. State laws frequently required any occupied passenger cars be carried BEHIND any freight cars, not next to the locomotives. Ordinary freight cars are(were) NOT equipped with steam lines as are passenger cars and "passenger train service" freight cars such as express reefers and express boxcars. Passenger cars designed for mixed trains had to have their own heating fuel and lighting supply of some sort.

Hope this is thoroughly confusing. As near as I can remember, this is the last U S mixed train I rode...

on the Moscow Camden and San Augustine back in 1964 or thereabouts when their diesel had to go into the shop.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Leon Silverman
However, the larger railroads, like N & W and the PRR did not run mixed trains to my knowlege. Their trains were either all freight or all passenger cars, with the only distinction being the allowable operating speed.

Virtually EVERY road ran mixed trains at one time or another, and the N&W and Pennsy were no exceptions! The N&W's mixed trains are VERY well known, with O Weston Link having chased them throughout their latter days, both with the N&W's quirky (but cool) 4-8-0s, and with the Geeps that replaced them. The N&W even ran mixed trains in Indiana into the late 1960s/early 1970s, on one of the Wabash's branch lines (the N&W absorbed the Wabash and NKP in 1964, and these mixed trains were very much diesel-powered, but with Geeps, not E's). And even the Santa Fe ran diesel powered mixed trains, in central Illinois on the Peoria Division, well into the 1960s (they used an odd lot of diesels for THOSE mixed, including F3s, Baldwin centercabs, and Alligators)

[dehusman]

FT's were also used on passenger trains on the RDG.

Dave H.

[1shado1]

Too bad the question wasn't, "were F units used in passenger service"?
The question was were locomotives such as E6's ever used for mixed trains like passenger and freight service?" Pay attention and answer the questions that were asked, not ones that weren't.[:p]

[dinwitty]

Ariculateds were designed of course to handle sharper radii thann a long rigid base loco could. Would they handle sharp curves in industrial trackage, naw.

The model 2-6-6-4 should handle 24" radii and #4 switches, but would work better on large radii and #5+ switches.

E units did get moved to freight service, just a matter of what power was available and the railroad changing what it used for passenger service, so available power was reclassed maybe regeared for freight.
The PA's and E's did have center non-powered wheels, they were dedicated passenger units by design.